Methods Of Discipline?

[Canada]

I am curious. How do experienced, trained teachers discipline students in Gov't Schools here?

If I could, I would like to hear your experiences; specifying behavior, group or individual, warnings, discipline, final results.

This is yet another area I am not trained in and I could use some suggestions.

The Thais can and do hit the students with a switch. I do not wish to, nor am I permitted to. This does however cause a problem as the students are aware of this fact. I have begun to get creative, but I don't want to make mistakes. I have asked the Thais for suggestions on several occasions, individually, and as a group in a meeting. They have pretty much just shrugged their shoulders. They have suggested a grading system. I counter with "a student cannot fail here". The director suggests exercises. I trained martial arts for many years, I can give exercises. I have started with this approach. I get a classroom that I can teach in now, but..... I don't know if it is really the right or most effective way. The students I teach are 13-18 years old.

Any suggestions....?....stories?

Thanks

Edited November 21, 2007 by Canada

[wangsuda]

Perhaps the hardest thing for a teacher to maintain is classroom discipline. A teacher can be prepared for class from now until Sunday and be extremely knowledgeable in his/her subject matter, but all is for naught if the class is completely uncontrollable. So how does a teacher go about setting up and maintaining class discipline? This month’s article will explore the realm of classroom discipline, first looking at what the teacher needs to accomplish before actual teaching, and then looking at various methods of maintaining control and discipline in the class.

The first step in maintaining classroom discipline is to find out exactly what the overall school disciplinary procedure is. Somewhere, a school should have a published discipline policy and you need to obtain it. This policy should clearly explain the school rules, and what punishments occur when these rules are broken. If your school does not have a rules/discipline policy, it is up to you to talk to an administrator and verbally get a list of rules (after all, you cannot “play the game” if you do not know the rules). Additionally, find out what sort of disciplinary actions you and the school can take when these rules are broken. Once you have the school rules, set up your own class rules (preferably ones that dovetail with the school rules. For more information on classroom rules, please see my previous article on classroom rules). Explain the rules to your students and explain the punishments that go along with breaking the rules. If you are ambitious, you can set up a “first/second/third” offence policy. What ever you set up, please STICK BY YOUR POLICIES! Once you allow one exception to the rules, students will walk all over you. Let us now look at some common methods of maintaining classroom discipline. NOTE: Just because I write about them does NOT mean I endorse them. Personally, I do not believe in draconian methods of punishment. With that said, some teachers can use them effectively.

I. Draconian Methods of Classroom Discipline. Called this because they directly act upon the student, making them do some sort of physical action as a punishment for bad behavior.

A. Standing at attention. This is a simple method of classroom discipline. If a student breaks a rule, simply make him or her stand at attention for a set length of time.

B. Nose to the wall. A bit more harsh than standing at attention, this method of punishment requires a student not only to stand at attention BUT to hold a piece of paper against the classroom wall using his/her nose. Very humiliating, but can be effective for severe troublemakers.

II. Brownian Movement Methods of Discipline. Called this because you make the student or students move to various parts of the room.

A. The “dunce” chair. Have a desk in the front of your class. The offending student gets to sit in full-view isolation for a period of time. This method can work well for talkers.

B. Full class movement. Students like to sit with friends and talk. Break them up by assigning seats. Sitting by student number works well in maintaining a healthy and effective learning environment. If this does not work, seat your students in boy/girl alternates. For the younger grades, this can work wonders.

C. “Dumb and Dumber” Method of Discipline. It has been my experience that the students in need of the most discipline are those who are either failing of receiving a “courtesy pass” (a common grade here in LOS). Re-arrange the seats so that the lowest grades sit up front with you. The advantages of doing this is twofold: first, these students are less likely to cause trouble; and second, you can easily give them extra help.

III. Pavlovian Methods of Discipline. Yes, good old reward and punish!

A. Loads of homework – part one. The offending student receives extra homework or class work for every infraction of the rules. Eventually, the poor lad/lass is bogged down with extra work and soon learns (you hope) that good behavior means less work. If your little offender does not do the extra work, a simple call to the parents can work wonders.

B. Loads of homework – part two. If a student breaks a rule or is generally a pain, then load the class with extra work. Make sure the class knows who is responsible for the extra assignments. Hopefully, your class will be disciplining themselves in order to get out of extra work. Additionally, your little offender might receive a bit of “street justice” which is far more effective than anything you could do!

IV. Proximity Methods of Discipline. Go to where the trouble is!

A. Vocal. Many students tend to talk when you are talking. Fine, then put them on the spot. Personally call on the talker and ask him/her a question based on what you said. For me, I always ask, “What did I just say?” Yes, this causes embarrassment, but it does get students listening. Additionally, it can reinforce your lecture by having students repeat salient parts.

B. Physical. This is my favorite method of maintaining classroom discipline. When I see a troubled area of my classroom, I simply walk over there and teach from that section of the room. I will even get my students involved by having them make my whiteboard notes. We all know how shy students can be, especially at the younger ages; so, for me, this works the best. If a student in my “trouble area” does well at making my whiteboard notes or solving problems I give him/her, then I make sure the whole class knows what a good job that student did.

Remember, these are only brief suggestions designed to spark your own ideas in maintaining discipline in your class. Not all ideas work for all teachers or situations. Let’s face it; any class of over 50 students is next to impossible to discipline based on the numbers. The best you can hope for is to teach to the 10-20 students who want to learn, and hope that (maybe by osmosis?) the rest of the students learn something. The important things to remember are this: create a set of rules and enforce them; and create a discipline system that works for you and use it.

[mssabai]

I am curious. How do experienced, trained teachers discipline students in Gov't Schools here?

If I could, I would like to hear your experiences; specifying behavior, group or individual, warnings, discipline, final results.

This is yet another area I am not trained in and I could use some suggestions.

The Thais can and do hit the students with a switch. I do not wish to, nor am I permitted to. This does however cause a problem as the students are aware of this fact. I have begun to get creative, but I don't want to make mistakes. I have asked the Thais for suggestions on several occasions, individually, and as a group in a meeting. They have pretty much just shrugged their shoulders. They have suggested a grading system. I counter with "a student cannot fail here". The director suggests exercises. I trained martial arts for many years, I can give exercises. I have started with this approach. I get a classroom that I can teach in now, but..... I don't know if it is really the right or most effective way. The students I teach are 13-18 years old.

Any suggestions....?....stories?

Thanks

One idea I really like is that each student, when they come into the class, has 3 stars on the board. If they misbehave, you take a star away, if they redeem themselves, you give one back. At the end of the class you can keep a chart of who has what stars and the pupil at the end of the week who has got the most points gets a certificate. Rewards always work better than punishments.

On the tahi discipline front it is not just the physical punishments that get up my nose, but, maybe even more so, the group bullying tactics. Getting 4 year old children to drag a classmate out of the room and such like disgusts me as I think it is lazy teaching and so harmful for vulnerable children. The teachers in my school are lovely and in general are very caring towards the kids but I feel there are a few more things they could learn sometimes!

[dbm]

Excellent advice Wangsuda. I'd like to add my own 2 cents. When 1 or several students misbehave, I'll take them out of their nice air conditioned classroom and teach them in the middle of the football pitch. As a foreigner I don't mind a bit of sun and think I look better with a tan. But when the kids realize they are getting browner by the minute--which is the worst punishment for a Thai teenager-- they soon learn to listen in class. So, find out what they're afraid of and use it against them!

[Scott]

To manage a class is one of the hardest tasks. First of all, I try to determine what I consider misbehavior and what needs some sort of disciplinary measures. For example, I almost never discipline a student for doing other work in my classes. (At least they are working on something). I simply close their book and place it on the teacher's desk or put it in their desk. I don't discipline students for sleeping either--again, they are only hurting themselves, educationally speaking. I will gently prod them but if they persist, so be it.

I discipline students who are being disruptive and this is causing not only them but others to not be able to learn. First, stand up, next to your desk. If they persist, then stand at the back of the classroom. If that doesn't quite do it, in the hallway--near the door so they can see & hear the lesson, but can't interact with others.

The last resort is to stand up with the book and a notebood and copy from it (This is really not fun, it's hard to write while standing and holding the book and the notebook)--this is the only one that I view as punishment.

For entire classes that get too noisey, I just ask all students to stand up. I tell them they cannot sit down until it is perfectly silent in the classroom. Then I let them sit down. Repeat as necessary, lengthening the time they spend standing--also continue the lesson. As I teacher, I have to stand, so they can learn while standing as well. If you do this over a period of time, they get the message. I also use the counting to 3 to bring the noise level down. If it isn't quiet by 3, they stand up. Most classes you can hear a pin drop.

It's easier to start out strict and lighten up than the other way around, by the way.

[Canada]

Yes I am now starting from behind. I am making a quick come back with the exercises, but I don't really like to do it. I am finding that giving exercises does the same thing....prohibits the learning process, maybe more so than the "offence". Since I have started this, I have had to do it 1-3 times per class. Then there is always the prospect of trying to get an 18 year old to do some exercises. That could turn into a huge problem, which I , the teacher, would of course, lose.

I like a lot of the sugestions so far...especially the one about finding out what constitutes breaking a rule. I really only have one...do not disturb others. This really gets me. When a student is prohibiting others from learning or myself from teaching. If I don't get right on it, it develops into a mob. Mobs are tough to bring around.

A Thai techer came in today while one of his students was doing push ups....he loved it....gave me suggestions on other ways to humiliate the students. They were about humiliation , not physical punishment. There is something about physical punishment that feels really wrong. I couldn't do the humiliation thing, and am not having much stomach for the "exercises". The sub-director was the one who suggested exercises. It is effective at keeping them quiet.

Thank you for the suggestions so far.

[Canada]

I have to add... I feel embarrassed by the use of "exercises". I know one thing....if you want help.... tell the truth. Then you can get some accurate critcism or help.

[Ijustwannateach]

The problem is that Thailand didn't replace corporal punishment (now officially terminated but still often employed) with anything else in the way of a "stick," and since grades have been made irrelevant there is no effective "carrot" either. They don't have any equivalent to detention or suspension. Often the punishments are more energy to monitor than they are worth, or just as disruptive as the original offending behaviour. Furthermore, at many of the money-dependent private schools, the school will undermine any disciplinary efforts by declaring each of the teacher's attempts to be against school policy without making an actual "approved" disciplinary policy that they will stand behind- because it is inevitable they will have to back down if a sufficiently "important" student objects.

They do it to themselves.

"S"

[stevemiddie]

They do it to themselves.

Agree.

I,m not sure about some of the suggestions for disciplining classes of 13-18 year olds. I would be inclined to treat them as almost adults. To suggest making 18 year olds do "exercises" or to put them onto a 3 star system is not the way to go. IMHO.

Can you remember when you were 18? Would you accept that sort of discipline ?

I only have 1 rule in my class. That is to be polite to the teacher and others at all times.

Treat them as grown -ups and not as children.

Any continually disruptive ones...........I remove from the class.

Edited November 22, 2007 by stevemiddie

[Ijustwannateach]

^Unfortunately, though, I think to throw students out is actually illegal in public schools- I believe there is some sort of clause about the "right to education" that has been interpreted by the courts as meaning that you can't legally kick kids out of the classroom (though I know we have all done it). Anyway, I'd rather break the law in that respect that by using corporal punishment!

"S"

[Canada]

I have started the exercises since they have told me that I can not remove the student from the class.

[mbkudu]

It's always the twits in little groups in the back. Clear a section of seats at the front and have them sit there? Monks in Thai temple schools, so I've heard, have them sit in the sun for awhile. Just what every Thai loves, a nice sun tan.

Edited November 23, 2007 by mbkudu

[Canada]

That makes my laugh. Yeah, they love the sun, don't they?

[Thaiboxer]

Solar radiation is a godsend for those high school kids! I once had a class doing squats on a sunny balcony right around noon. I agree with Wangsuda, maintaining discipline (especially with high school kids) can be more work than any lesson planning, teaching, etc. Without any incentive to behave, and with the abolishment of corporal punishment, I'm afraid we don't have much of a leg to stand on and in the end the school will side with the kids. It's too bad with this "no fail" policy and on top of that you can't throw them out of the classroom either (technically).

Personally, I think coporal punishment is often used for the wrong reasons like kids forgetting homework, not finishing a task on time, etc, but in some cases, the really DO need it!

[selavy59]

That's always the problem with corporal punishment (and capital punishment for that matter). You start out with a set number of misdemeanors on which to apply punishment but over time those misdemeanors get added to, till you get punished for ridiculous offences such as forgetting homework!

If there is no effective school policy on punishing students then you will always be fighting a losing battle. There has been some good suggestions here. Try a variety of them, what works for one will not work for another. Above all, don't lose your temper!

[wilko]

No problem no need - I taught in Spennymore.

Do those who advocate the cane/whip/stick etc do with trousers on or off?.....and how about the students themselves?

[snowflake]

Well I do tend to punish the other students than the ones that are doing something bad. That way the other students can punish them for me.

I do let my students hand down punishment as I see fit.

I also have a system in class that gives the students 200 Baht a week, if they behave. (The class). and 100 Baht in bonus if they do something special. This way they are encouraged to behave and they learn that when they do something good they get an reward. If they misbehave I will take money away. I can and I do take away more than 1 week bonus if I see fit.

I recently paid out 5000 Baht to my two classes, but that is a small price to pay for a semester full of nice students, or do you think that is to bad. The students will also give me something nice back for my birthday, christmas, or on English camps.

The kids are not bad by nature (sure the occational belsebub appears) so you just have to get on the same line as them. Be strict, if they can push you, they will push you.

If you are not diciplined they will mess around.

Be happy and friendly but be firm. What you say goes, even if it means that they start crying...

[Turok]

It shocks me that some of you hand out punishments like you do ie... standing in the sun, cash bonuses and other silly sutff!

I recommend that you read The First Days of School by Harry Wong.

Its not about discipline and rules like so many of you inexperienced teachers believe. Its about classroom procedures. Yelling and punishing students won't work!

Set a up a procedural plan for you students to follow. Spend the first 2 weeks of school doing nothing but practicing clasroom routines. Walking into a classroom and starting to teach from day one is the worst thing you could do! How do the students know what you want from them? I have talked about this topic many times with inexperienced teachers. Yelling, warning, discipling... yuck. That just shows that you are not prepared. As an adult going to work for a big compnay there are routines and guidelines that you have to follow. You go through a training program. You don't think IBM has a training program. You bet they do. Well, do the same for your students. I spend the first 2 weeks of the school year drilling into the students the classroom routines. It will pay off in the end.

Get this book! It is the turn key approach to better classroom management.

Turok

[PeaceBlondie]

Turok, great post. Good to hear from you here in the Teaching Forum.

[Ijustwannateach]

Turok, we like to keep things friendly here in the Teacher's Forum. It would be appreciated if you address the other members in a neutral way, rather than using perjorative, potentially inflammatory terms such as "inexperienced"- unless of course you are personally acquainted with all of them and know this to be a fact.

Generally, I have found that there is no "one size fits all" when it comes to discipline. While Turok's suggestion for avoiding disciplinary problems (regimental classroom procedures) is a good one- and one which is mostly likely already utilised by many posters on this thread- there will nearly always be one or two students who still don't get with the program for a variety of reasons- medical, emotional, or mental distress or disorders, family problems, conflicts within the class itself, bad history with other teachers, etc... This thread is, I think, mostly to address the problems of dealing with those individual students in a Thai classroom. If there were whole classes in outright rebellion, then I think it would most likely result from the teacher's methods (though once again, not always- I've seen classes of students in Thailand that were allowed by the schools to tyrannise all their teachers, because the parents would get anyone who tried to impose order fired) and Turok's suggestion would seem more useful... however, almost all the disciplinary problems I see in Thailand are "what to do about this one kid" and the schools' administrations are almost uniformly unhelpful. Without their support, especially if the parents are not inclined to be supportive, the teachers cannot be effective in these cases. Classroom discipline does not exist in a vacuum.

It gets back to "no fail." If failing is impossible then passing is made more irrelevant, too. I'm not suggesting that's the best way to structure a school system, but if you're going to have a pass-fail system the Thai way simply doesn't make sense. Thankfully most of the students still realise the difference and try to play the game the way it was meant; but a few students will take advantage and that also includes behavioural problems.

"S"

[wangsuda]

Its not about discipline and rules like so many of you inexperienced teachers believe. Its about classroom procedures.

It is about discipline and rules. Perhaps you should read “Building Classroom Discipline,” by C.M. Charles (ISBN 0-321-07691-5). It is an excellent analysis of the most popular classroom management philosophies. Included in this text are complete analysis of discipline philosophies and methods of practical applications for the classroom. Additionally, you should also peruse “The Structure of Schooling,” by Richard Arum and Irenee R. Beattie (ISBN 0-7674-1070-X). It is an excellent source of various readings for those in the philosophical and sociological aspects of education. In short, discipline and rules are all parts of management.

Spend the first 2 weeks of school doing nothing but practicing clasroom routines.

Way too long for practice. Incorporate your procedures into daily classroom activities, but never sacrifice education for procedures. I believe Mr. Wong mentions that.

Get this book! It is the turn key approach to better classroom management.

For more information on Mr. Wong's book, it can be ordered through Amazon.com. The full information is “The First Days of School,” by Harry K. Wong and Rosemary T. Wong (ISBN 0-9629360-2-2). Since I don't loan my copy out, I summarized the part to which Turok refers:

1. Entering the classroom.

2. Getting to work immediately. Tell the students what their work assignments will be by having them written on the whiteboard. Train the students into getting to task right away.

3. When students are tardy. Set this policy NOW and IN STONE. NO deviations.

4. End-of-period dismissal. How do you want your students to leave? Does the bell determine anything?

5. Listening to and responding to questions. How should the students answer questions?

6. Participating in class discussions. How much of a percentage of grade is class participation? Tell them now!

7. Understanding. How will you check for student understanding after you disseminate information?

8. When the teacher is absent. What should the students do when you are not in class?

9. Working cooperatively. How do you want your students to behave when working in groups?

10. Keeping a notebook. How should the students organize their notes, class, and homework?

11. Knowing the schedule for the class. Will you preview your class for the next day? Will you have instructions written on the whiteboard?

12. FINDING DIRECTIONS. It is amazing how many students do NOT know where to find directions for class work or homework. Tell them now.

13. Passing in papers. How do you want your students to turn in class work and homework? How about quizzes and tests?

14. Returning work. How will you return work? What should the students be doing while you return work?

15. Headings on papers. How do you want your students to put names and dates on papers? Nicknames or full names? Student numbers?

16. Asking a question. How should students indicate that they have a question?

17. Saying “thank you.” Is this something you want your students to do?

P.S. Not all of us are inexperienced.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to IJWT and Wangsuda, as usual. I encouraged Turok because he so seldom posts in the Teaching Forum.

So, have the Wongs taught in typical Thai settings, or did they get their experience in cozy private schools in places like Hong Kong and Taiwan, with unspoiled Chinese students who didn't dare to fail?

Please note this topic began with the opening post asking, "I am curious. How do experienced, trained teachers discipline students in Gov't Schools here?" I found myself violating lifelong pacifist philosophy and methods just to get one or two kids at a time to act decently (stay clothed in class, stop beating a girl, etc.).

[wangsuda]

So, have the Wongs taught in typical Thai settings, or did they get their experience in cozy private schools in places like Hong Kong and Taiwan, with unspoiled Chinese students who didn't dare to fail?

The Wongs were trained in America, and have American public school teaching experience.

[Turok]

Wang:

I happily disagree. How can you expect a 7 or 8 year old to get what you told him to do on the first try? Most adults can't follow simple rules. I model the behavior and procedure that I expect from them. And then we practice it over and over. And the list of things in your post are true. In my classroom there are about 9 procedures that I work on with the students. These are the things that disrupt the classroom environment.

If you do read the Wong's book he specifically says that the first few days of school should not be about academics but about establishing a classroom culture that is full of routines. It can be in the form of plays, worksheets, etc... but for me these are the most important days of the school year. Before we do one math problem all my students know how the classroom runs and they prefer it this way. Students want to know. Everything is posted for them to review in case a procedure is not followed. Even the other students will work with those students who can't get it right and discuss with them what went wrong.

In Thailand it normally takes me 5 days for the procedures to stick and then we review them over and over for 40 days. 40 days seems to be the magic number for things to stick. It has worked for me here in Thailand and I work at the larger international schools with the spoiled children that you mentioned. Yes I do have my occasional students who act up but much less that other teachers in my school who lay out no plan for the students to follow. I do not know of the other books that you mentioned, but the Wong's book is simple and lays it all out for you. I never read in the Wong's book about embarrassing students by threatening to BBQ them in the sun or bribing them to be good. These are unacceptable forms of punishment.

I am suggesting this as teachers on this thread are looking for help on this subject and this works well for me.

I hope this helps some of you out who are looking for help.

Turok

[wangsuda]

A happy medium would be to incorporate classroom procedures in the academic setting.

How can you expect a 7 or 8 year old to get what you told him to do on the first try?

I don't. That's why I go over things many times; but I never stop the core subject learning process.

If you do read the Wong's book he specifically says that the first few days of school should not be about academics but about establishing a classroom culture that is full of routines.

Like I said, I own a copy. And you are right, that is what the Wong's say. However, they are not the be-all-end-all to management. Some people might prefer a more Cantorian method of management and routine (works great for that aforementioned age group, BTW). Others may prefer to combine many different styles into a management and procedure routine. The trick is not to rely on one source, hence why I named a couple of other books

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe in Thailand, the Wongs have it wrong. Which compels me to publish this excerpt from the Thai part of my novel:

In one commercial, the Thai was teaching Asian children to say ‘milk builds long, strong bones.’ On a wrong response, he said, “That’s wrong,” and a student who was a foot and a half shorter than him replied, “That what I say, wong bone!”

Then, a seated Jai Wong would say, “You’re wrong. I’m Wong.”

Finally, Yao Ming would appear a foot and a half above the Thai teacher and say, “Not wong bone – milk builds long, strong bones.”

[twschw]

Perhaps international schools are different but at my government school we are required to prepare lesson plans and I am not sure how to write up a lesson plan on teaching classroom rules and routines when I am supposed to be teaching non released final consonants. The school admin would be in a snit if I took 2 weeks of teaching time to drill the students on classroom rules. You are lucky to be able to do this.

[jumnien]

Children should be disciplined by their teachers in the same manner that the teachers are disciplined by their superiors.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Cutting their pay? Firing them? Somehow I don't think these measures will prove relevant.