Tipping

[1stbase]

Okay so before coming here I read by a couple sources that tipping in thailand is not really required as in if you don't tip it's no big deal. However, after being here 3 weeks now, many restaurants frown upon not tipping and some even ask for a tip. The way I see things now is that you should tip at western style restaurants and not thai style restaurants.... Should the tip always be about 10%? Trying to get this straight.

[Jingthing]

10 percent is a good tip in Thailand and I do not think Thai people follow that rule, especially with higher tabs. Leaving 20 baht for an average meal is OK. No need to tip at street restaurants. I do tip but if the service is very bad (common in Pattaya), no tip. I also have an issue with clearly family run places where the owner serves you also. I am not sure they need a tip, they own they business.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing

[Irene]

Local eateries-no tipping is required and not expected but leaving loose changes is well appreciated.

Western eateries-10% if no service charge has been included.

Hotel eateries-already included in the service charge but leaving loose changes is also appreciated. But if paid by credit card, no further tip is required. Credit card slip may leave one line for you to put down the tip, rounding up the number to the nearest figure is also a done thing or just give a dash that should be OK.

[tropo]

10 percent is a good tip in Thailand and I do not think Thai people follow that rule, especially with higher tabs. Leaving 20 baht for an average meal is OK. No need to tip at street restaurants. I do tip but if the service is very bad (common in Pattaya), no tip. I also have an issue with clearly family run places where the owner serves you also. I am not sure they need a tip, they own they business.

What do (would) you do at MK's if the service was no good. They stand next to you when they return your change and don't leave until you tip them.

[patsfangr]

Okay so before coming here I read by a couple sources that tipping in thailand is not really required as in if you don't tip it's no big deal. However, after being here 3 weeks now, many restaurants frown upon not tipping and some even ask for a tip. The way I see things now is that you should tip at western style restaurants and not thai style restaurants.... Should the tip always be about 10%? Trying to get this straight.

As an American, I was born and raised in a "tipping society". I never leave a place, even a small Thai noodle shop, without leaving a tip, unless the service is really terrible. I usually follow the old 10% rule. It's now at 15% in the USA, which I find unreasonable. I continued to leave 10% in the USA before I moved here last year.

Here in Thailand, I've found a couple of places that flat out LIE about the "Service Charge" they list on the menu and/or bill. A restaurant that I loved for the food, 'The Great American Rib', was one such place. They charge a 10% "Service Charge", but gave only TWO percent to the staff. The rest was actually a "hidden SURCHARGE", not "service" charge; which went to the management! Pissed me off so much that I stopped going there! I would have continued to eat there if they raised their prices by 8%, and let me tip directly to the servers. At least that would have been HONEST!

As for my normal tipping, I know that the service people here are paid VERY low wages. Giving them a nice tip for decent service just feels right to me. After all, at Thai restaurants, the bill for two is rarely over a few hundred baht. A tip of 70 baht ($2) for a 700 baht bill, should not be a big deal to anybody with even a small "western" income.

The one suggestion I'd make is that you (and everyone, for that matter) make it a habit to ask about the "distribution" of any the money in any restaurant that charges a mandatory "Service Charge". Verify that it is, in fact, a "Service" charge that goes to the staff; and not a hidden "Surcharge" that goes to the management!

[1stbase]

Sounds good to me. What if you decide not to tip at western places? Would people take it personal like they would in other countries?

[Jingthing]

What do (would) you do at MK's if the service was no good. They stand next to you when they return your change and don't leave until you tip them.

If they are that attentive with the check bin, chances are they were OK during the rest of the meal. If that wasn't the case, I would tell them, sorry it was service not good and try to explain why. In cases of horrible service, they usually know it too without being told.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Jingthing

[patsfangr]

10 percent is a good tip in Thailand and I do not think Thai people follow that rule, especially with higher tabs. Leaving 20 baht for an average meal is OK. No need to tip at street restaurants. I do tip but if the service is very bad (common in Pattaya), no tip. I also have an issue with clearly family run places where the owner serves you also. I am not sure they need a tip, they own they business.

What do (would) you do at MK's if the service was no good. They stand next to you when they return your change and don't leave until you tip them.

AH, Tropo! You found one of my very few exceptions! What the *ell is the problem with MK's training program?! I really like most of the food in there; but I have NEVER been in an MK where the service can even be described as "service". Most times, they get at least one item on the order wrong. it takes them forever to take your order; and forever and a day to bring you the food - nearly always one item at a time! It is the worst restaurant of it's kind that I've found in the Pattaya area. I do still leave a tip, most of the time. But it's rarely over 20 baht, regardless of the bill!

I am much more tolerant of poor service in tiny, inexpensive Thai restaurants. They're lucky to survive, and most have no formal restaurant management experience at all. There is no excuse for a major chain like MK having such consistently poor training, and bad service.

[RAZZELL]

I nearly always give 10% to the waiter/waitress in his or her hand. That way they keep it and it doesn't go to the owners.

In many bars and restaurants if you leave a tip wit the "check-bin" only a small percentage is passed on to the staff.

RAZZ

Edited November 24, 2007 by RAZZELL

[Jingthing]

Yes, MK often misses an item and charges for it, thats true. I am talking about even worse service than that in other places ...

[CGW]

10% is too big a tip, especially in a western restaurant where the bill will be higher, I tip everywhere, but relative to western standards, not that much, bear in mind that 250 baht a day is a good working wage!

[NanLaew]

I nearly always give 10% to the waiter/waitress in his or her hand. That way they keep it and it doesn't go to the owners.

In many bars and restaurants if you leave a tip wit the "check-bin" only a small percentage is passed on to the staff.

RAZZ

My wife told me that was the best way to reward an attentive waiter; leave the small change for the general tip to the establishment but give the deserving waitstaff their gratuity directly.

[Irene]

In not tipping at western places, people do not take up as an issue like in the west. Most likely thought that you have forgotten. But to be on the safe side, I would not go back to that outfit again or wait for a while.

[wilko]

tipping is not the normm in Thailand - Pattaya is an excweptoin because of the Western influence.

I was a guest at a meal in a seafood restaurant the other day - the only farang - the bill I think was about 10k and the guy (Thai) who paid it left a tip - 100 baht.

Noodle places would not expect a tip any more than I would tipo the owner of a place - this would be an insult.

[patsfangr]

10% is too big a tip, especially in a western restaurant where the bill will be higher, I tip everywhere, but relative to western standards, not that much, bear in mind that 250 baht a day is a good working wage!

In my personal view, a person should have an opportunity to improve his/her lot in life with a good, honest effort. A "working wage" of 250 baht a day is a life sentence to subsistence level living. I suppose a girl could become a whore, and make more. A guy could sell drugs, or steal from drunks, and make more. What's wrong with giving those who work at decent jobs an opportunity to make more?

IMO, saying that "250 baht a day is a good working wage" is like saying, "As long as you feed the animals, that's all they need."

[tropo]

As an American, I was born and raised in a "tipping society". I never leave a place, even a small Thai noodle shop, without leaving a tip, unless the service is really terrible. I usually follow the old 10% rule. It's now at 15% in the USA, which I find unreasonable. I continued to leave 10% in the USA before I moved here last year.

Yes, the American tipping system has become the scourge of the planet. I'm surprised you only paid 10% last year, because 10 years ago 15% was becoming the "norm". 15% for ok service, 20% for good service.

In Australia the tourism department attempt to "train" tourists NOT to tip so that they will not end up with the American system. In Australia the service staff are paid a standard wage and don't require tips. In America they don't pay the staff a standard wage and they MUST get tips to survive.

Which leads us to what should be done in Thailand...

Tipping as a PERCENTAGE of the bill is ludicrous. Why should a person ordering expensive items pay a larger tip? For example, does it require more effort to bring caviar to the table than fried rice?

I think service staff in Pattaya expect too much because they've been spoiled for too long.

If I visit a regular restaurant I leave a standard 20 baht tip (or close if the change is 15 and up). That keeps all the spoiled staff happy enough.

I don't go along with your "oh, poor Thais...they're doing it tough" theory. Most service staff working in Pattaya are doing very nicely thank you. Most of the restaurant chains are staffed by high school/college graduates who have had a decent education and come from middle class families. Many of the smaller restaurants have generous foreign sponsors paying most of the bills.

These "poor Thais" are looking for generous people like you to pay their gas bills and cell phone loads. Have you ever noticed how many "poor Thais" in Pattaya own their own motorcycles and spend half the day yapping on their cell phones?

I was watching a dozen "poor laborer Thais" working on our communal swimming pool (retiling) a few days ago. I saw 3 of them talking on their cell phones (seemed like forever) with a work tool in the other hand (not actually doing much work at all). These are poor laborers....and they spend an incredible amount of time eating too.

Edited November 24, 2007 by tropo

[Spaniel]

10 percent is a good tip in Thailand and I do not think Thai people follow that rule, especially with higher tabs. Leaving 20 baht for an average meal is OK. No need to tip at street restaurants. I do tip but if the service is very bad (common in Pattaya), no tip. I also have an issue with clearly family run places where the owner serves you also. I am not sure they need a tip, they own they business.

What do (would) you do at MK's if the service was no good. They stand next to you when they return your change and don't leave until you tip them.

AH, Tropo! You found one of my very few exceptions! What the *ell is the problem with MK's training program?! I really like most of the food in there; but I have NEVER been in an MK where the service can even be described as "service". Most times, they get at least one item on the order wrong. it takes them forever to take your order; and forever and a day to bring you the food - nearly always one item at a time! It is the worst restaurant of it's kind that I've found in the Pattaya area. I do still leave a tip, most of the time. But it's rarely over 20 baht, regardless of the bill!

I am much more tolerant of poor service in tiny, inexpensive Thai restaurants. They're lucky to survive, and most have no formal restaurant management experience at all. There is no excuse for a major chain like MK having such consistently poor training, and bad service.

I think you should try a different MK. We have eaten at MK restrauants for years, mainly in Bangkok, and have always had great service.

[Irene]

10 percent is a good tip in Thailand and I do not think Thai people follow that rule, especially with higher tabs. Leaving 20 baht for an average meal is OK. No need to tip at street restaurants. I do tip but if the service is very bad (common in Pattaya), no tip. I also have an issue with clearly family run places where the owner serves you also. I am not sure they need a tip, they own they business.

What do (would) you do at MK's if the service was no good. They stand next to you when they return your change and don't leave until you tip them.

AH, Tropo! You found one of my very few exceptions! What the *ell is the problem with MK's training program?! I really like most of the food in there; but I have NEVER been in an MK where the service can even be described as "service". Most times, they get at least one item on the order wrong. it takes them forever to take your order; and forever and a day to bring you the food - nearly always one item at a time! It is the worst restaurant of it's kind that I've found in the Pattaya area. I do still leave a tip, most of the time. But it's rarely over 20 baht, regardless of the bill!

I am much more tolerant of poor service in tiny, inexpensive Thai restaurants. They're lucky to survive, and most have no formal restaurant management experience at all. There is no excuse for a major chain like MK having such consistently poor training, and bad service.

I think you should try a different MK. We have eaten at MK restrauants for years, mainly in Bangkok, and have always had great service.

MK has been lauded in Thai press as the best in services and truly surprised of the comments on MK Pataya. They have their training programs every morning. Our experience with the place has always been above par with quick services. Any extra requests are quickly met. However, they are mainly in Bangkok. We went to the one in Pataya once and found the service was just as good but felt somewhat disturbed by the loudness of customers in Pataya.

[Irene]

Very well said! I thank the Lord for people like you otherwise there won't be much future for an average man.

[Irene]

10% is too big a tip, especially in a western restaurant where the bill will be higher, I tip everywhere, but relative to western standards, not that much, bear in mind that 250 baht a day is a good working wage!

In my personal view, a person should have an opportunity to improve his/her lot in life with a good, honest effort. A "working wage" of 250 baht a day is a life sentence to subsistence level living. I suppose a girl could become a whore, and make more. A guy could sell drugs, or steal from drunks, and make more. What's wrong with giving those who work at decent jobs an opportunity to make more?

IMO, saying that "250 baht a day is a good working wage" is like saying, "As long as you feed the animals, that's all they need."

Very well said! I thank the Lord for people like you otherwise there won't be much future for an average man.

[ZZZ]

I nearly always give 10% to the waiter/waitress in his or her hand. That way they keep it and it doesn't go to the owners.

In many bars and restaurants if you leave a tip wit the "check-bin" only a small percentage is passed on to the staff.

RAZZ

My wife told me that was the best way to reward an attentive waiter; leave the small change for the general tip to the establishment but give the deserving waitstaff their gratuity directly.

I think this is a very common misconception.

It may work in some cases but in most places it would be considered stealing from the tip box if the employee did not hand in the tip given directly to them.

Anyway, I think tipping should be banned. To give good service is in the job description for all service workers and they should not expect to get a tip if they provide this. It should be up to the management to evaluate their staff and give the good performers incentives such as pay rises, bonuses and promotions.

If tipping was banned the restaurants would be forced to increase the pay to a realistic level or the workers would disappear to

other restaurants or another line of work. An additional bonus would be that with a higher pay there would be more social welfare contributions and more tax revenue for the country.

This would of course slightly higher prices to pay for the customers but I much rather pay what it says on the bill than going trough this tipping business every time I buy a service.

[patsfangr]

As an American, I was born and raised in a "tipping society". I never leave a place, even a small Thai noodle shop, without leaving a tip, unless the service is really terrible. I usually follow the old 10% rule. It's now at 15% in the USA, which I find unreasonable. I continued to leave 10% in the USA before I moved here last year.

Yes, the American tipping system has become the scourge of the planet. I'm surprised you only paid 10% last year, because 10 years ago 15% was becoming the "norm". 15% for ok service, 20% for good service.

In Australia the tourism department attempt to "train" tourists NOT to tip so that they will not end up with the American system. In Australia the service staff are paid a standard wage and don't require tips. In America they don't pay the staff a standard wage and they MUST get tips to survive.

Which leads us to what should be done in Thailand...

Tipping as a PERCENTAGE of the bill is ludicrous. Why should a person ordering expensive items pay a larger tip? For example, does it require more effort to bring caviar to the table than fried rice?

I think service staff in Pattaya expect too much because they've been spoiled for too long.

If I visit a regular restaurant I leave a standard 20 baht tip (or close if the change is 15 and up). That keeps all the spoiled staff happy enough.

I don't go along with your "oh, poor Thais...they're doing it tough" theory. Most service staff working in Pattaya are doing very nicely thank you. Most of the restaurant chains are staffed by high school/college graduates who have had a decent education and come from middle class families. Many of the smaller restaurants have generous foreign sponsors paying most of the bills.

These "poor Thais" are looking for generous people like you to pay their gas bills and cell phone loads. Have you ever noticed how many "poor Thais" in Pattaya own their own motorcycles and spend half the day yapping on their cell phones?

I was watching a dozen "poor laborer Thais" working on our communal swimming pool (retiling) a few days ago. I saw 3 of them talking on their cell phones (seemed like forever) with a work tool in the other hand (not actually doing much work at all). These are poor laborers....and they spend an incredible amount of time eating too.

Some of what you say is right on, Tropo. But I do disagree with some of it.

You are totally correct regarding the salary structure in the USA. Most, if not all, restaurant server jobs pay minimum, or at least, less than premium wages, in the expectation that tips can bring the total income to a decent level. The better the restaurant a server works in, the higher the tips. Why? Because the people who eat in the better places expect more efficient and professional service. If a server fails to perform at that level, he/she will not be able to keep a job at such an establishment.

This also ties into the point about higher tips for "more expensive food". The more expensive the food, the better the venue, in nearly every case. So, again, you're expecting better service to match the environment and the food.

I have never been a server; nor have I ever even known one. But I am very appreciative of really good service, and I respect the trainng and the dedication to the job that is required to both understand, and consistently provide really good table service. For me, the quality of the service truly is a significant element of a restaurant experience. And that applies whether I'm buying a bowl of noodles at a Thai shop, or a broiled halibut in an expensive seafood restaurant in So Cal. Prompt, accurate, consistently attentive, yet unobtrusive, service makes a meal a real joy.

So, here in Thailand, where I have yet to find a leve of service to match the very best in the USA, I appreiciate it when I get at least competent service, from people who seem to be making a genuine effort to do a good job. Not all of them even come close to that.

While tipping, or, at least, "American style" tipping, is not expected here, I think that I'll continue to reward good service when I get it. If nothing else, it may provide some encouragement for those servers to continue to work at becoming better.

[wilko]

I nearly always give 10% to the waiter/waitress in his or her hand. That way they keep it and it doesn't go to the owners.

In many bars and restaurants if you leave a tip wit the "check-bin" only a small percentage is passed on to the staff.

RAZZ

My wife told me that was the best way to reward an attentive waiter; leave the small change for the general tip to the establishment but give the deserving waitstaff their gratuity directly.

I think this is a very common misconception.

It may work in some cases but in most places it would be considered stealing from the tip box if the employee did not hand in the tip given directly to them.

Anyway, I think tipping should be banned. To give good service is in the job description for all service workers and they should not expect to get a tip if they provide this. It should be up to the management to evaluate their staff and give the good performers incentives such as pay rises, bonuses and promotions.

If tipping was banned the restaurants would be forced to increase the pay to a realistic level or the workers would disappear to

other restaurants or another line of work. An additional bonus would be that with a higher pay there would be more social welfare contributions and more tax revenue for the country.

This would of course slightly higher prices to pay for the customers but I much rather pay what it says on the bill than going trough this tipping business every time I buy a service.

The convention in Thailand just about 100% is that if you leave the money on the tray it goes into the staff kitty, if you put it in the hand of the waiter/tress it is for them personally.

The minimum wage in Chonburi province is about 170 baht. Most staff earn about 3 to 5 k per month - there are a host of deductions that companies can make for lateness absenteeism etc. Most young staff share single rooms with 1,2 or 3 others some even sleeping in shifts......

This is not a situation that would be approved of in the west...it may be better than working on a rice farm but nevertheless is it acceptable that these people should have to grovel at the feet of snotty, drunken rich tourists just to eke out a living in this way?

However I don't think that big tipping is going to change a thing. As mentioned before tipping in US stems from the culture there of waiter relying on tips so everyone budgets for a tip - here it is different - in the end the cost and standard of living will rise, those of you retired on fixed/limited income beware, Thailand will not always be cheap.

[tropo]

You are totally correct regarding the salary structure in the USA. Most, if not all, restaurant server jobs pay minimum, or at least, less than premium wages, in the expectation that tips can bring the total income to a decent level. The better the restaurant a server works in, the higher the tips. Why? Because the people who eat in the better places expect more efficient and professional service. If a server fails to perform at that level, he/she will not be able to keep a job at such an establishment.

This also ties into the point about higher tips for "more expensive food". The more expensive the food, the better the venue, in nearly every case. So, again, you're expecting better service to match the environment and the food.

They make more in tips in expensive restaurants because the food bills are higher. Remember it's percentage tipping in the US.

There are plenty of restaurants that have a food price range of 50 baht (friend rice) up to imported steaks and seafood costing 10x that. In this case the 10% tip would be 10x higher.

[1stbase]

I agree on banning tipping. If servers want to get paid more than the owners should just raise the prices of the food accordingly. Tipping has so many issues involved and should be reflected in the price of the food rather than the decision of the customer. I don't think this would have an effect on good service. So far from my experience here, the restaurants that add 10% to your bill seem to have A LOT better service than the ones hoping for a tip. How ironic. Pay the employees more, raise the prices of the food, and if the employees want to keep their well paid job then they will serve you just as good if not better. I could never work for tips, it is a gamble with every new customer, whether they are a good tipper or not and whether to invest giving them good service if they look like the type that won't tip, etc. etc.

[Jingthing]

Old habits are hard to break. As an American, I don't really tip so much out of the goodness of my heart, I tip out of guilt, because it is expected, and also to avoid having waiters defile my food with body fluids if I don't tip. In the US, not tipping could result in a very unpleasant public scene with a waiter chasing you out of the restaurant to demand WHY, so years of this kind of conditioning takes its toll. Do I think tipping is a good practice? No. But it has spread to many places in Thailand, so I just see it as another tax.

Its so arbitrary also. We tip waiters. There are so many other basic services provided by low wage people that we get that we don't tip. Why waiters? Again, probably because they can sabotage your food?

Edited November 25, 2007 by Jingthing

[edwardandtubs]

I agree. Tipping is just a way to keep employees in a state of gratitude and serfdom. Payment for work is a right not something that should depend on the generosity of others.

[patsfangr]

Old habits are hard to break. As an American, I don't really tip so much out of the goodness of my heart, I tip out of guilt, because it is expected, and also to avoid having waiters defile my food with body fluids if I don't tip. In the US, not tipping could result in a very unpleasant public scene with a waiter chasing you out of the restaurant to demand WHY, so years of this kind of conditioning takes its toll. Do I think tipping is a good practice? No. But it has spread to many places in Thailand, so I just see it as another tax.

Its so arbitrary also. We tip waiters. There are so many other basic services provided by low wage people that we get that we don't tip. Why waiters? Again, probably because they can sabotage your food?

I've wondered myself, Jingthing, about the "evolution" of tipping practices in our country. It is, as we've said, part of the American culture to tip food servers. We can add some other low wage jobs to that, such as porters in airports and train stations, delevery people, hotel bellboys, etc. Yet there are, as you said, low paying, public service, jobs that are rarely, if ever, tipped (store cashiers and janitors come immediately to mind). Why the distinction? I have no idea. And how about grocerie baggers? Nobody tips them for bagging groceries. But they are almost always tipped (and expect it), if they assist a customer to the car with groceries; even though the management directs them to offer to, and provide this service, when appropriate, as part of their job.

What I do know is that the pipe dream of "banning tipping" (in the USA) is worth no more discussion that the idea of banning overtime pay. It's been part of the culture, and part of the economic structure, for too long to eliminate now.

I also have to ask Tropo to re-read my point about "percentage of bill" tipping. Higher prices for food nearly always mean that you're in a "higher class" venue. Such places hire more experienced, more intelligent, more professional servers. As a customer, you understand that you must pay more for the better service, just as you must pay more for the better quality food, and the nicer venue. Those places draw better servers because the servers "know" they'll make more money there, in tips, than they will working at a Denny's. People who do that for a living are well aware of the places where the tips are highest. They compete heavily for those jobs; and the smart ones do there very best to keep those jobs. It's a "vicious circle" - the owner pays higher overhead for a fancy venue, and higher wages for good chefs; he hires only highly qualified, efficient, personable servers; the customers pay (at least) 10% of the bill as tips; "professional" servers seek these jobs for the high tips they know they'll get. The whole dining experience has levels for the food, the venue, and the service. The same is true for the profit levels for the owners, and the income levels for the staff.

Again, I agree that it is strange that this entire tipping culture has evolved so much differently in the USA than in most, if not all, other countries in the world. I'd like to see a truly historic (as opposed to some smart a$$ "American bashing") explanation of how this happened. :-)

Just as an aside, my wife was born and raised in BKK; but lived with me in the USA for the first 34 years of our marriage. As a result, she's got a combination of 3 things influencing her "rules" for tipping. First is the traditional Thai custom of little or no tipping. Second is having spent about a 3-1 ratio of her adult years in the USA. Third is her compassion for the struggles of her countrymen to make a decent living. She nearly always asks me how much I tipped. We rarely have any disagreement about it. She justs likes to know.

[patsfangr]

I agree. Tipping is just a way to keep employees in a state of gratitude and serfdom. Payment for work is a right not something that should depend on the generosity of others.

I will guarantee you that there are waiters in the USA whose "serfdom" has afforded them a better quality of life than a significant number of employees in other fields in both the USA and many other countries in the world! :-) You could no more get a waiter in an expensive US restaurant to change careers than you get US plumber to become bank clerk!

Seriously, the better servers in the USA are truly (and justifiably) proud of their performance. They provide a service that is valuable to their customers. They are recognized and rewarded for it, both financially and verbally. It's no closer to serfdom than any form of employment. Such jobs are plentiful. The best of them are the object of serious competition. People who have not lived in the USA for an extended period of time truly cannot fully appreciate these facts any more than most US women can understand why so many young women become bar girls in Thailand. It's a different culture. (Easy now. I didn't say "better". I said "different"!) :-)

[wilko]

In most there is a service charge or a tips culture as a waiter is practically a middle class job. people will use "his" tables if they can and he will make a lot of his money from tips.

Essentially I would guess that tipping came from europe to the states and as people started to make more money they like to show this with big tips, imitating the Euro gentry.

Edited November 25, 2007 by wilko