Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[exexpat]

When will we know the results of the poll?

[meadish_sweetball]

Language and meaning - It is the backbone of many a post here that the term 'Farang' is neutral - I question the basis of those claims - As evidence we have posts from a number of people who claim to speak Thai and who also admit that the term is sometimes used as a derogatory sense. - It seems that I and they agree except for the extent and frequency of this derogatory sense.

I speak Thai well enough to get around without a problem in everyday situations. Despite being able to adapt my language fairly well to different situations, being able to read a contemporary novel without the aid of a dictionary and still understanding enough of it to be able to enjoy and discuss the contents, I would not call myself fluent, because there are large gaps in my vocabulary as well as in my understanding of the language and the surrounding culture.

It is interesting that you do classify yourself as fluent. So far we have not really seen any evidence that you are, except for your own claims and mentioning a classifier in an earlier post. So in the light of this, and that anybody can claim they are whatever they like, I still view your posts on this subject with a certain amount of skepticism.

So while I accept that at some time in the past it almost certainly was neutral it is also clear that the term Farang is used in a derogatory sense.

Not the term itself, no - I insist it is a casual/everyday term with a neutral meaning - i.e. it is not formal or official in register. In terms of register it belongs in the same loose bracket as กิน หมา เมีย/ผัว which are quite acceptable words in informal conversation, but not the words you would use referring to strangers in the second person, in a more formal setting.

As discussed earlier, it can be used together with negatively charged words.

Let us remind ourselves of the question the OP asks Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

If anyone who speaks Thai says they have never heard the term 'Farang' used in a derogatory way then I must conclude that they are either learned their Thai in a very secluded environment (not in Thailand) or they are deaf.

I do have to contest both of your conclusions, and the attempts to sneak in personal insults does not make me think you actually care about 'mutual respect' as much as you claim, no matter how large the font you use.

Further, I do feel the need to split hairs here. Have I heard it used in a 'derogatory context'? Yes, without a doubt. I would place the frequency between 'sometimes' and 'seldom'.

Am I always able to determine what the context is? No. And I have seen several times that many people overestimate their abilities in understanding register and context in a foreign language, and take offense where none whatsoever was intended.

But 'in a derogatory context' is still not quite the same thing as 'used in a derogatory way'. 'Used in a derogatory way' does not make clear if it is the word itself or the context that is derogatory.

The fact that the word is still used on public television in talk shows and debate programs, in a matter-of-fact manner, shows me quite clearly that it is not intended to denigrate anybody.

As far as I have seen, you would not find 'khaek' or 'chek' used in the same neutral way on TV.

In reference to your discussion of classifiers in an earlier post, it is worth noting that there are situations where it is commonplace to use 'dtua' when describing people. Apart from the animal classifier function, 'dtua' also loosely has the meaning of body. If you hear 'farang dtua uan' it does not mean the Thai has just equated a Westerner with an animal (no, not even subtly), it just means that they think he or she is fat. To make the usage clearer, you can say 'dtua uan khon nan' - that fat person. The actual classifier is still 'khon'.

Neutral? - The idea that a word in any language has a fixed meaning and that the word is independent of context is utter <deleted>.

Well, you have a point there, but it is akin to a strawman argument. The point is that JUST the word 'faràng' does not carry negative connotations, as opposed to the word 'chék' for example.

Language - No language - has ever been fixed without change. (Example - The English word 'Gay' went from a possitive attribute regarding someone's tempremant, to an insult regarding their sexuality to a neutral description of someone's sexuality) There are many other examples in every language.

Yes. Language does change. It's possible that the word 'farang' will change too, but at this point it really does not appear to have done so for the vast majority of the native speakers who use it.

Language expresses values - How many times do you hear it said that if you want to understand Thai culture and values learn the language - From a knowledge of Thai we can 'feel' the importance of family in the numerous terms for family relationships, we can 'feel' the importance of emotions in the numerous and complex Thai verbs that describe the experience of feelings. Language expresses values and as values change so does language.

Yes, obviously language needs to change in order to conform to society, otherwise it wouldn't work as a tool. But you're really continuing down the strawman path.

It is evident that if resident farangs in Pattaya keep raving against the use of the word farang for long enough, the Thais there will be aware it is seen as a derogatory word by foreigners and will start to use it differently - some as an insult and some will avoid it because they do not want to offend.

And that brings me back to mutual respect - Thai society is changing - more foreigners are living in Thailand, and there is an understandable change in Thai attitudes to foreigners - Changing attitudes, changing values, changing language.

If the attitude to foreigners changes, and even if we prepose that it changes mostly for the negative, it does not automatically follow that 'farang' becomes a bad word, even though it is a possible outcome.

Anyone who claims that the use of any word is fixed (you, I or anyone else) is talking out of their backside.

I think you just mentioned that a few sentences above.

And I am presuming here that the term Backside has not changed in meaning since the last time I used it.

I would rather we refrain from discussing gas emissions as the vapours may cloud our judgements.

Anyways, your mostly sound reasoning not withstanding, you still have not provided any examples of the negative use of 'farang' you have heard, nor have you defined what your fluency in Thai consists of.

It would be interesting to hear you address both of these points.

[Samuian]

Just watched a Thai Movie in which in the subtitles translations used the word "Someone" to translate "Farang".

But what still puzzles me is that many asians are "Khun Malay", "Khun Jippon", "Khun Chine"....

Ask an Indian how they feel about the Word "Khek" used for them!?

Edited December 3, 2007 by Samuian

[Jingthing]

Wambaral

You have a tenuous grasp on reality if you think that an answer of "never" is extreme.

I have spent a number of years in Thailand, admittedly working in a profession, and also a number of years married into a Thai family, and I have NEVER heard the word farang used in a negative way.

Prove that I am wrong.

Egads! You have a "tenuous grasp on reality" if you think I CARE or COULD prove some random poster wrong about what they say is their experience. Amazing!

In any case, you are certainly in the minority, and I assure you alot of us who did not vote never really wonder how any person living in Thailand for awhile could not experience the word farang being used in a negative way EVEN ONCE. If you say so, OK, doesn't mean we don't wonder about how that could possibly happen.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[sonnyJ]

Sometimes I do feel offended by 'farang'. Usually when locals talk among them selfs using the word. Somebody calls me farang to my face is ok, I have gone soo far that when I speak with locals and refer to a group I us 'farang' sometimes they laugh at me? Why farang calls his friends farangs? Guess theres a small hint there. When I grew up I was taught not to use any bad words about Africans. So like every conversation here about Thai's behaviour it ends up in lack of education again..

Let me give you another dilemma. 'I pity you'. Is that negative or positive statement?

[Jingthing]

Let me give you another dilemma. 'I pity you'. Is that negative or positive statement?

Almost always negative in that context at least in American usage. Hard to think of a positive use. But the word pity in itself is neutral.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[chanchao]

But 'in a derogatory context' is still not quite the same thing as 'used in a derogatory way'. 'Used in a derogatory way' does not make clear if it is the word itself or the context that is derogatory.

The fact that the word is still used on public television in talk shows and debate programs, in a matter-of-fact manner, shows me quite clearly that it is not intended to denigrate anybody.

As far as I have seen, you would not find 'khaek' or 'chek' used in the same neutral way on TV.

Agree completely with Meadish.. But no use trying to convince Guesthouse of anything, though. And you may wait a while before getting any answers to your straightforward and direct questions...

Edited December 3, 2007 by chanchao

[Jingthing]

Agree completely with Meadish.. But no use trying to convince Guesthouse of anything, though.

But then again he did live in the Pattaya area when he was in Thailand, so a negative connotation to just about anything can be construed there.

A reminder Sir, that while bashing Pattaya is an easy sport, I wonder when was the last time you were here to see what you are slurring? In any case, experiences in Pattaya are experiences in Thailand, just as experiences in New York City are experiences in America. I have little doubt that if this was a Pattaya only poll, the results would be much more skewed towards the farang word being used negatively, but, again, Pattaya is in Thailand, and the people slinging the insults are Thai people.

Yes, I will beat you to it. You might say the "type" of farangs in Pattaya deserves to be insulted. If you say so, but that kind of challenges the Thai culture PR that says that the Thai people are a very polite people.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[asiaworld]

As far as I have seen, you would not find 'khaek' or 'chek' used in the same neutral way on TV.

Precisely sweetball..Because they are mostly citizens , who instead of forming some forum for bickering with each other , would have balls to let others know this slang word is NOT appreciated

[chanchao]

Agree completely with Meadish.. But no use trying to convince Guesthouse of anything, though.

But then again he did live in the Pattaya area when he was in Thailand, so a negative connotation to just about anything can be construed there.

A reminder Sir, that while bashing Pattaya is an easy sport, I wonder when was the last time you were here to see what you are slurring?

You'll be pleased to note that I edited out that line (before I saw your reply), precisely for the reason you mentioned. And when was I last there... ummm.. about a month or so ago I guess? I like Pattaya a lot. It's one of the most interesting places in Thailand. And I also see people there that make ME sigh 'idiot Farang' more times than any other province with the possible exception of Patong.

In any case, experiences in Pattaya are experiences in Thailand, just as experiences in New York City are experiences in America. I have little doubt that if this was a Pattaya only poll, the results would be much more skewed towards the farang word being used negatively, but, again, Pattaya is in Thailand, and the people slinging the insults are Thai people.

Ok, I think we're in agreement on this sub-item.

Yes, I will beat you to it. You might say the "type" of farangs in Pattaya deserves to be insulted. If you say so, but that kind of challenges the Thai culture PR that says that the Thai people are a very polite people.

Ah.. good.. that opens a sub-sub item and actually a very interesting / educational one. Because 'being polite' is something you do in social interaction. One could be a serial killer but still be the politest guy in the world. It's simply a different thing. But anyway, to cut this one short and get back on the main item: The politest guys in the world can and do happily use 'farang' in colloquial speech, as do I myself.

(Edit: Although I sometimes write "Farlang" as it upsets people. )

Edited December 3, 2007 by chanchao

[PeaceBlondie]

Oh, the Pattya factor! Perhaps the foreign White men in Pattaya have caused the native Thais in the area to use the word in a derogatory context. Some farang consider Pattaya to be a derogatory context!

meadish and I live in Chiang Mai. He's nearly fluent in Thai, and rates the use of the word derogatorily as between "seldom" and "sometimes." I speak no Thai, and cannot ever remember it used derogatorily (I like that adverb, and so does my Spellcheck ). You Pattayans might want to have a pity party.

Added: as we've often said, Thailand is not just Pattaya. Thank goodness!

[Jingthing]

Perhaps the foreign White men in Pattaya have caused the native Thais in the area to use the word in a derogatory context.

Yes perhaps, but whatever the cause, it is happening.

Thanks, chanchao, I am speechless in agreement.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[chanchao]

If enough people of a certain feature persist in doing negative things long enough then it's almost inevitable that they'll be associated with said behavior.

Like in Sweden, Trolls are kind of seen in negative connotation. And of course the trolls themselves were to blame for that.

So instead of whining that some people are starting using such and such word in a negative sense some of the time, I suggest to try being a positive influence on your environment.

But anyway, not only do I think there's nothing wrong with using 'farang' in colloquial speech, I also WOULDN'T MIND if it was! I simply don't indentify with the types of Farlangs who would have those negative vibes coming towards them, nor would I seek to lower myself in an attempt to protect those individuals with some misplaced windmill-fight of pseudo political correctness.

I know who I am and I am comfortable being who I am and if some fellow Farangs feel the need to go fight windmills on the use of a Thai word then.. that's not a cause I feel like supporting.

Edited December 3, 2007 by chanchao

[Chloe82]

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager. When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

Only problem is , there's no plurals in Thai.

Good post for a west ham fan, and agree with everything you asid apart from there being no plurals in Thai, when talking about groups of people then 'phuak' is added as a pluralizer.

[Jingthing]

So instead of whining that some people are starting using such and such word in a negative sense some of the time, I suggest to try being a positive influence on your environment.

I am not whining. Just the facts. Observing and commenting on perceptions of reality is not whining. Not that I have a problem if people would like to whine, just please call a whine a whine.

BTW, I love Pattaya, genital warts and all, it is a city on the up and now offering many of the same amenities as Bangkok in a breezy beach setting, but there is little doubt the city has a higher than average percentage of unpleasant people, both Thai and farang. But like I said, world class people watching, endless entertainment. For those who haven't been here for some years, suggest a fresh visit, you will be surprised.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[chanchao]

So instead of whining that some people are starting using such and such word in a negative sense some of the time, I suggest to try being a positive influence on your environment.

I am not whining. Just the facts. Observing and commenting on perceptions of reality is not whining. Not that I have a problem if people would like to whine, just please call a whine a whine.

Whine is taxed far too high in Thailand anyway.

BTW, I love Pattaya, genital warts and all, it is a city on the up and now offering many of the same amenities as Bangkok in a breezy beach setting, but there is little doubt the city has a higher than average percentage of unpleasant people, both Thai and farang. But like I said, world class people watching, endless entertainment.

Hear hear.

[Chloe82]

Making a poll on this forum is difficult, and writing perfect questions is extremely difficult. The results of most polls on ThaiVisa, or in Bangkok, divided by the number of Scottish somtam vendors on Sukumvit, equals half the number of Bavarians who sell enchiladas in Taiwan.

I think you forgot to factor in the number of cycling French onion sellers wearing striped jerseys and berets who read Stephen King in Mongolian.

Or the Siamese twin Polar bear hunters on silom road.

[Jingthing]

I think the objective poll question here and the choices offered are crystal clear, and the results, quite believable, thank you very much. It seems some people would not have been happy unless they saw a 90 percent NEVER vote. So they attack the poll. Typical.

Imagine the gleeful reaction of the Never happens crowd (well not big enough to be a crowd) if the results had been 90 percent NEVER.

Trink said it best: Human nature, human manure.

Dare I say, I PITY YOU? (with an extra special shout out to Chloe)

Edited December 3, 2007 by Jingthing

[meemiathai]

I'm fluent in Thai.

I voted "Never".

I'm not leading a secluded life.

Carry on.

Lucky you were not blind, coz Guesthouse said you were deaf! It would have been a disaster if you were blind as well.

[GuestHouse]

It is interesting that you do classify yourself as fluent. So far we have not really seen any evidence that you are, except for your own claims and mentioning a classifier in an earlier post. So in the light of this, and that anybody can claim they are whatever they like, I still view your posts on this subject with a certain amount of skepticism.

I absolutely agree with you that you should be skeptical about all claims made on websites (because of the Walter Mittys that Thailand atttracts you should probably view any claims made on Thai expat websites with double skepticism) - However, to be skeptical about my claims of proficiency is one thing, to let that skepticism blind your vision to where I have been catogorically correct in references to the use of intonation and claissifiers is quite another.

But yes I agree, claims of fluency, income, number of houses/property owned, value of stock holdings and how long/short members here are on the money markets should always be treated with skepticism.

[meemiathai]

It is interesting that you do classify yourself as fluent. So far we have not really seen any evidence that you are, except for your own claims and mentioning a classifier in an earlier post. So in the light of this, and that anybody can claim they are whatever they like, I still view your posts on this subject with a certain amount of skepticism.

I absolutely agree with you that you should be skeptical about all claims made on websites (because of the Walter Mittys that Thailand atttracts you should probably view any claims made on Thai expat websites with double skepticism) - However, to be skeptical about my claims of proficiency is one thing, to let that skepticism blind your vision to where I have been catogorically correct in references to the use of intonation and claissifiers is quite another.

But yes I agree, claims of fluency, income, number of houses/property owned, value of stock holdings and how long/short members here are on the money markets should always be treated with skepticism.

Great post!

Great reply!

Edited December 3, 2007 by meemiathai

[GuestHouse]

Anyways, your mostly sound reasoning not withstanding, you still have not provided any examples of the negative use of 'farang' you have heard, nor have you defined what your fluency in Thai consists of.

It would be interesting to hear you address both of these points.

Let me give you an example:

During a recent visit to Thailand I called at the TOT offices in Lamchabang to question a charge on my phone account. I had called by phone but was getting the run around so I went in to personally to see the manager.

After a long wait and several times of asking the clerk went and fetched the manager out of her office took. She listening to my complaint look at me, pointed at one of the other members of staff and loudly proclaimed 'see to Fa-Lang dtua nan!

Both the intonation and the classifier each added offensive meaning to the word 'Falang'.

I've also heard Thai referred to with the classifier for people in the same sentence as foreigners (Farangs) referred to with the classifier for objects and animals.

And not discussing their body shape.

Evidence of proficiency - read my last post - All claims are meaningless - so listen to the arguments.

[mr_hippo]

Or the Siamese twin Polar bear hunters on silom road.

My great great grandfather was a very successful polar bear hunter in Silom!

[JetsetBkk]

Both the intonation and the classifier each added offensive meaning to the word 'Falang'.

So what did you say, or do?

[hullmonkey1]

Personally, I do not like the feeling of walking down a strange street and hearning whispers of FARANG FARANG. The intent is not rudeness but the feeling is.

If you're Kosovan, Polish, Albanian, Hungarian etc... etc... and you're walking down any street in England in 2007 and hearing 'whispers' of '**cking immigrants', the intent is almost certainly rudeness & is absolutley designed to induce a feeling of unease among the 'aliens'..

native mindset = "this is my country, who the *ell do they think they are..."

Sorry, but thats the truth.

westerners in Thailand will experience the same..

as will brits in oz, yanks in india, ruskys in mexico, munchkins in timbuktoo etc.. etc.. JUST LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT..! (don't be so bloody sensitive. remember : sticks & stones may break my bones but...........)

Can’t see where you get the notion that the use of the word Farang is designed to induce a feeling of unease. As another poster has explained, it has come from the meaning of Frenchman. Now that really pisses me off be called a Frenchman

I work in India and every white guy here is referred to as angraise admi (spelling ?) which translates as Englishman. I suppose that would really piss off most ozzies

In Hongkong all white folk are called guillo (spellin?) which translates to something like ghost-man. Not something that should piss anyone off IMO. But I worked with a guy there who lost it one night after being called a guillo once too many times, and started shouting CHINKY CHINKY CHINKY to the oblivious street vender

All of of the above are just terms and without any further adjective eg: French <deleted>, English scum, cannot be classed as being designed to induce a feeling of unease.

So I suppose that I agree with you in so far as being call a fukcing Farang would disturb me but plain old farang means nothing at all to me.

Wow that would be more than a billion people to educate! Are than any westerners moaning the same in Indian Websites?

Never been on an indian expat forum so I have no idea. on the other hand I am sure that there are as many moaning expats over here as there is in thailand.

[meemiathai]

Anyways, your mostly sound reasoning not withstanding, you still have not provided any examples of the negative use of 'farang' you have heard, nor have you defined what your fluency in Thai consists of.

It would be interesting to hear you address both of these points.

Let me give you an example:

During a recent visit to Thailand I called at the TOT offices in Lamchabang to question a charge on my phone account. I had called by phone but was getting the run around so I went in to personally to see the manager.

After a long wait and several times of asking the clerk went and fetched the manager out of her office took. She listening to my complaint look at me, pointed at one of the other members of staff and loudly proclaimed 'see to Fa-Lang dtua nan!

Both the intonation and the classifier each added offensive meaning to the word 'Falang'.

I've also heard Thai referred to with the classifier for people in the same sentence as foreigners (Farangs) referred to with the classifier for objects and animals.

And not discussing their body shape.

Evidence of proficiency - read my last post - All claims are meaningless - so listen to the arguments.

First of all, you mean the manager spoke in english "see to" and then thai "farang dtua nan". It does not make sense to me a thai speaking to a thai in a half english half thai sentence? Although I do not doubt she actuall called you that.

Secondly, you are bringing out one example where confrontation is involved to prove the word's negativity? And that is called frequently as you described?

You usually do better than that!

Any more examples? 555 I could imagine how difficult it is to figure out it and answer this post. I wouldn't mind if you don't answer.

[meemiathai]

Both the intonation and the classifier each added offensive meaning to the word 'Falang'.

So what did you say, or do?

Hey that is a difficult question! Now he will have to add a bit of imagination to answer it.

Fluent in Thai?

Edited December 3, 2007 by meemiathai

[GuestHouse]

First of all, you mean the manager spoke in english "see to" and then thai "farang dtua nan". It does not make sense to me a thai speaking to a thai in a half english half thai sentence?

No she spoke to me in Thai - this board is in English and many of the people joining this discussion are by their own account are not fluent in Thai - I therefore related what was said in English leaving the offending Thai in a roman script rendition so that we are all absolutely clear what was said.

Although I do not doubt she actuall called you that.

You ask me for an example I give you an example and then you call it into doubt - well I have already written above on skepticism and claims made on web message boards (you seemed then to agree with me).

I guess if I related something that did not so clearly demonstrate the point I am making then you might believe my account. Believe my account, don't believe my account - Up2U.

Secondly, you are bringing out one example where confrontation is involved to prove the word's negativity? And that is called frequently as you described?

Well I could sit here typing until dawn, but if you didn't like my examples you'd claim you don't believe them - Again I have already given my views on claims made on the internet

You usually do better than that!

I'm usually discussing issues with people who are open to the discussion, and not as keen to escape examples they can't deal with by claiming they do not believe the claim.

Any more examples? 555 I could imagine how difficult it is to figure out it and answer this post. I wouldn't mind if you don't answer.

See above.

[GuestHouse]

Both the intonation and the classifier each added offensive meaning to the word 'Falang'.

So what did you say, or do?

Hey that is a difficult question! Now he will have to add a bit of imagination to answer it.

Fluent in Thai?

It is interesting that you do classify yourself as fluent. So far we have not really seen any evidence that you are, except for your own claims and mentioning a classifier in an earlier post. So in the light of this, and that anybody can claim they are whatever they like, I still view your posts on this subject with a certain amount of skepticism.

I absolutely agree with you that you should be skeptical about all claims made on websites (because of the Walter Mittys that Thailand atttracts you should probably view any claims made on Thai expat websites with double skepticism) - However, to be skeptical about my claims of proficiency is one thing, to let that skepticism blind your vision to where I have been catogorically correct in references to the use of intonation and claissifiers is quite another.

But yes I agree, claims of fluency, income, number of houses/property owned, value of stock holdings and how long/short members here are on the money markets should always be treated with skepticism.

Great post!

Great reply!

Changed your mind on that?

Edited December 3, 2007 by GuestHouse

[meemiathai]

First of all, you mean the manager spoke in english "see to" and then thai "farang dtua nan". It does not make sense to me a thai speaking to a thai in a half english half thai sentence?

No she spoke to me in Thai - this board is in English and many of the people joining this discussion are by their own account are not fluent in Thai - I therefore related what was said in English leaving the offending Thai in a roman script rendition so that we are all absolutely clear what was said.

Although I do not doubt she actuall called you that.

You ask me for an example I give you an example and then you call it into doubt - well I have already written above on skepticism and claims made on web message boards (you seemed then to agree with me).

I guess if I related something that did not so clearly demonstrate the point I am making then you might believe my account. Believe my account, don't believe my account - Up2U.

Secondly, you are bringing out one example where confrontation is involved to prove the word's negativity? And that is called frequently as you described?

Well I could sit here typing until dawn, but if you didn't like my examples you'd claim you don't believe them - Again I have already given my views on claims made on the internet

You usually do better than that!

I'm usually discussing issues with people who are open to the discussion, and not as keen to escape examples they can't deal with by claiming they do not believe the claim.

Any more examples? 555 I could imagine how difficult it is to figure out it and answer this post. I wouldn't mind if you don't answer.

See above.

You really like to twist things and avoid dealing with things that does not benefit your arguments, don't you?

I said in my post I did not doubt what you said and you reply with the whole post with every word saying that I did not believe you.

What was the whole sentence the thai manger was saying in thai IS my question!

And it is not going to take you days to give a few more examples, is it? Since you claim it is so common to hear thais use the word negatively.

It was not a good example either cause there was a reason for the negativity. I bet the next you are going to give is a bunch of thais beating a farang up.