Proof Of Income For Retirement Visa

[peekint]

I am over 50 (just), and semi-retired. Since I'm only 50, I have no gov't pension. However, I have adequate investment and business income overseas to meet the B65K a month requirement for income.

My question is what documentation the Thai gov't is looking for regarding this income. Must it be in the form of a pension or gov't stipend (like social security?), or can it be a CPA's statement of assets and annual income? Private Bankers' statement of annual returns on investments/deposits?

I do understand that, whatever it is, it has to be countersigned by the embassy or consulate. My question is what exactly is the embassy or consulate supposed to be shown to countersign?

I know the 800K deposit can be done, but financially it's very unattractive. It has to be put in Thai baht at one time, which means the exchange can't be hedged. The deposit earns little or no interest. The rules regarding the timing and longevity of the deposit appear to be quite fluid. I'd rather just make ATM or wire transfers as needed for expenses, and let them money earn interest elsewhere where it is appreciated! 555

So, really, I'm just looking for an answer on the documentation requirements for the income. Any help is appreciated!

[Lite Beer]

I am over 50 (just), and semi-retired. Since I'm only 50, I have no gov't pension. However, I have adequate investment and business income overseas to meet the B65K a month requirement for income.

My question is what documentation the Thai gov't is looking for regarding this income. Must it be in the form of a pension or gov't stipend (like social security?), or can it be a CPA's statement of assets and annual income? Private Bankers' statement of annual returns on investments/deposits?

I do understand that, whatever it is, it has to be countersigned by the embassy or consulate. My question is what exactly is the embassy or consulate supposed to be shown to countersign?

I know the 800K deposit can be done, but financially it's very unattractive. It has to be put in Thai baht at one time, which means the exchange can't be hedged. The deposit earns little or no interest. The rules regarding the timing and longevity of the deposit appear to be quite fluid. I'd rather just make ATM or wire transfers as needed for expenses, and let them money earn interest elsewhere where it is appreciated! 555

So, really, I'm just looking for an answer on the documentation requirements for the income. Any help is appreciated!

It all depends on what your Embassy needs as proof to issue the letter.

If you give us your nationality maybe someone will know.

[Jingthing]

No proof is needed if you are American to get the embassy letter (just your sworn word); however Thai immigration knows that too, and there are now cases where they are asking for their own proof. I think if you can really document any kind of INCOME you can use this. I would have this documentation ready at immigration (if they ask) in addition to the embassy letter. Assets don't help you, you need to show income.

If you are legit and for some reason they don't accept your proof of income (IF they ask) I wouldn't worry about getting into trouble for trying, as long as you are being honest. It is possible they won't accept this or that item as valid income but unless it is obvious fraud, the worse that will likely happen is a rejection.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Jingthing

[briley]

For UK nationals you have to provide some proof of the income - any not necessarily pension - and they give you a letter with no further checks.

[sfokevin]

Would an Embassy letter along with a US tax return showing investment income be adequate proof?

Edited December 6, 2007 by sfokevin

[lopburi3]

More than likely it would be.

[Guderian]

Perhaps you shouldn't write off the 800K-in-the-bank route so quickly.

The money only has to be in a savings account for 3 months prior to application for the extension. Yes, you may lose interest compared with other accounts, but remember that getting the Embassy or Consulate to verify your income will cost you 2400 Baht (I think that's the figure). As soon as your extension is granted, you can put the 800K into a proper interest-bearing account (or spend it if you want to)

On top of this, (although it is not 100% certain as far as I am aware at present - perhaps Jingthing can advise on the latest information?), for subsequent applications for a retirement extension you only need to have the 800K in the bank at the time of the application, not necessarily for 3 months beforehand. Watch this space.

Plus, if you are applying in Pattaya via the income route, you will have to provide a copy of a valid credit or debit card in your name. This does not appear to be necessary when using the 800K method.

Finally, it has been posted that some banks (HSBC? Standard & Chartered?) offer savings accounts acceptable to Thai Immigration with decent rates of interest. If you're really worried about losing a few thousand Baht, shop around for one of these.

It's swings and roundabouts, but the cash-in-the-bank route seems to me to have less messing around, and you have to live on something out here. And personally, I prefer to keep my income a private matter.

[peekint]

Sorry, forgot to mention I would use my American nationality.

Guderian, I worry more about exchange loss (with 30% swings not uncommon with the Thai Baht, we're talking 10Ks of Baht, not 1Ks of Baht) than loss of interest which is pretty pitiful anywhere these days.

But frankly, I'm just darn lazy. My biggest objection to the bank-account method is that it's so complicated and unsettled. Now it's 800K, now it's 1.6M if you're a couple; oops, now just kidding, 800K is enough ... now its 3 months in advance for first time, but you can/can't have withdrawals, now you need 3 months in advance for renewals, or maybe you don't ...

I want to just get all the paperwork together according to the rules, get my darn visa and be done with it until next year (90 day reporting, exit book, etc., excepted). I don't want this to become yet another financial management exercise I have to go through 3 months out of every year! (Hmm, lets see, transfer money, or not, or what is the rule this time ... oops, they just changed it and I missed the deadline, or the amount wasn't right, or it's not the right kind of account this time ... ugh!)

[ProThaiExpat]

peekint: I monitor this area of Thaivisa posting quite closely and post whenever American experience is appropriate.

The Chiang Mai consulate has you fill out a form, that is in fact, a declaration that you have income, pension or other, equaling so much per month. I have posted before that in my considered opinion, any "income stream" which can be backed up by any reasonable method of proof, is more than adequate and even if you encounter a picky immigration officer, none in Chiang Mai at the moment, that first requests proof and then argues with your proof, can often be satisfied by what he requires to prove it. Usually, their understanding of available proofs are limited so he may have fixated on one he likes. I don't believe anyone has been asked by Chiang Mai Immigration for any proof to back up a Consulate Letter to date.

Certainly, the consulate doesn't ask for any backup proof. Many who post here regarding the shady nature of such pension letters or their impression on immigration are not aware that an American Citizen making a false declaration to a federal officer is subject to a 10k USD fine and imprisonment. Certainly, such a false declaration would be more than ample grounds for Thai Immigration to deport you, so, such a declaration may not be treated lightly by knowledgeable immigration officers, despite all of the rumor, innuendo and opinions generated from Pattaya Immigration or reported to have originated there.

I have posted that one can certainly set up many forms of investment vehicles or accounts in the U.S. that generate sufficient income to meet the 65K a month requirement and I would even opine, if annualized, it would be acceptable. Showing proof through documentation should be easy, certainly account deposit information coming from any reputable institution would be sufficient.

When your "income stream" falls short of the 800K a year requirement, immigration calculates the shortfall at 33 Baht to the Dollar at present and calculates what is needed in the bank to reach 800K. Watching immigration calculate my minor shortfall each year, I have noticed that they do not seem to pay attention to the monthly income requirement, only if the total income stream per year is 800k and how much is needed in the bank to meet that level, they don't seem to care if you meet the monthly requirement of 65k.

Thus I conclude that if you have an income stream of 800K a month or a combination of income stream and Thai bank balance equaling that amount, you are fine and I suspect any proof will be accepted, if ever asked for.

Edited December 6, 2007 by ProThaiExpat

[jazzbo]

This is my method:

I obtain from my well-known bank in the USA a notarized letter that they, upon my instructions, transfer on my behalf 65000 baht per month from my Account 'A' to my Account 'B' at another bank..

I go to the US Embassy and obtain the affidavit. The US Consul Officer asks prior to signing do I realize that Thai Immigration, at their discretion, may ask for back-up information. I answer 'yes'.

I go to Suan Phlu and make sure that the notarized bank letter with the color logo is on the top of my stack of papers and noticeable to the Immigration Officer... and they have yet to ask to see the letter in 2 extensions. Maybe 10 words spoken total with the 2 Officers. No requests for ATM or credit card from either Officer.

[Fossil]

But frankly, I'm just darn lazy. My biggest objection to the bank-account method is that it's so complicated and unsettled. Now it's 800K, now it's 1.6M if you're a couple; oops, now just kidding, 800K is enough ... now its 3 months in advance for first time, but you can/can't have withdrawals, now you need 3 months in advance for renewals, or maybe you don't ...

Subsequent renewals require the 800K 3 months prior to the renewal. Well in Pattaya anyway. If you keep that base amount, spending aside, you need to top up to the 800K 3 months before you apply the next renewal. Every year. It certainly is the easiest way to go. They like the retirement extension at Pattaya probably because it's less paperwork!!!

Just my 800K worth.

Fossil.

[Jingthing]

Subsequent renewals require the 800K 3 months prior to the renewal. Well in Pattaya anyway. If you keep that base amount, spending aside, you need to top up to the 800K 3 months before you apply the next renewal. Every year. It certainly is the easiest way to go. They like the retirement extension at Pattaya probably because it's less paperwork!!!

Just my 800K worth.

Fossil.

We have recent reports (including mine) that the 3 month rule DOES NOT apply in Jomtien for subsequent renewals using the 800K in the bank way to qualify. It does apply to the first extension. Waiting for more reports.

The official line here at TV is that this is needed (the 3 month seasoning for subsequent extensions) but if officers are telling people at Jomtien that they don't see it that way, what info is more relevant?

Edited December 6, 2007 by Jingthing

[Guderian]

It certainly is the easiest way to go. They like the retirement extension at Pattaya probably because it's less paperwork!!!

Just my 800K worth.

Fossil.

It seems like the easiest way to me too.

I also don't see any real exchange rate risk in the coming year for $-Baht or £-Baht. IMHO, and I am NOT a trader, those two will either drop against the Baht or else will stay about the same. I recently moved next year's spending money from £ into Baht - and to judge by today's interest rate cut in the UK and the fall in the £, maybe I SHOULD be trading !

We have recent reports (including mine) that the 3 month rule DOES NOT apply in Jomtien for subsequent renewals using the 800K in the bank way to qualify. It does apply to the first extension. Waiting for more reports.

The official line here at TV is that this is needed (the 3 month seasoning for subsequent extensions) but if officers are telling people at Jomtien that they don't see it that way, what info is more relevant?

Jingthing,

Thanks for the update. I wish more people would tell us their experiences on this one at Pattaya Immigration.

Cheers all.

[Jingthing]

"No. Generally not but obviously it depends on the context."

Thanks, but we still need more reports, because immigration doesn't publish officially what they are actually doing, so people continue to not really know ... until they go.

[chiang mai]

It certainly is the easiest way to go. They like the retirement extension at Pattaya probably because it's less paperwork!!!

Just my 800K worth.

Fossil.

It seems like the easiest way to me too.

I also don't see any real exchange rate risk in the coming year for $-Baht or £-Baht. IMHO, and I am NOT a trader, those two will either drop against the Baht or else will stay about the same. I recently moved next year's spending money from £ into Baht - and to judge by today's interest rate cut in the UK and the fall in the £, maybe I SHOULD be trading !

We have recent reports (including mine) that the 3 month rule DOES NOT apply in Jomtien for subsequent renewals using the 800K in the bank way to qualify. It does apply to the first extension. Waiting for more reports.

The official line here at TV is that this is needed (the 3 month seasoning for subsequent extensions) but if officers are telling people at Jomtien that they don't see it that way, what info is more relevant?

Jingthing,

Thanks for the update. I wish more people would tell us their experiences on this one at Pattaya Immigration.

Cheers all.

I wish you were right about there not being an exchange rate risk for Sterling to Baht but the realities are that there are huge risks. Bank of England MPC cut rates by 0.25% today and Sterling is dropping against the US Dollar and the Euro. Talk to some of the chartists on this forum and they will all tell you that the future for Sterling is ugly. I hope the pundits are wrong and that you are right but you need to stay very alert to what is going on at present. If in any doubt read the BOE MPC minutes for Oct & Nov regarding their views.

[Bomonster]

you tell me why the levels are 65k month(what normal thai earns that) and what normal thai has 800 k, how do they get these figs, living here is very cheap and if you own and not rent cheaper still ....I am baffled.

No proof is needed if you are American to get the embassy letter (just your sworn word); however Thai immigration knows that too, and there are now cases where they are asking for their own proof. I think if you can really document any kind of INCOME you can use this. I would have this documentation ready at immigration (if they ask) in addition to the embassy letter. Assets don't help you, you need to show income.

If you are legit and for some reason they don't accept your proof of income (IF they ask) I wouldn't worry about getting into trouble for trying, as long as you are being honest. It is possible they won't accept this or that item as valid income but unless it is obvious fraud, the worse that will likely happen is a rejection.

[Kaojai]

Sterling is dropping against the US Dollar and the Euro. Talk to some of the chartists on this forum and they will all tell you that the future for Sterling is ugly.

Well that would be all the more reason to put the 800K (or more) in a Thai bank now while the rate is good. If the baht/pound exchange rate drops it won't negatively impact you in the near term ... as long as the 800K holds out.

Guderian, I worry more about exchange loss (with 30% swings not uncommon with the Thai Baht, we're talking 10Ks of Baht, not 1Ks of Baht) than loss of interest which is pretty pitiful anywhere these days.

The only swings with the $/baht recently have been in the baht's favor so you'd have been ahead if you'd changed into baht a year ago rather than in drips and drizzles as the rate declined.

But frankly, I'm just darn lazy. My biggest objection to the bank-account method is that it's so complicated and unsettled. Now it's 800K, now it's 1.6M if you're a couple; oops, now just kidding, 800K is enough ... now its 3 months in advance for first time, but you can/can't have withdrawals, now you need 3 months in advance for renewals, or maybe you don't ...

I'm lazy too and making one or two transfers a year is a lot easier than doing it once a month and then proving where it came from for Immigrations each year. It's not complicated and, aside from on this message board, it hasn't materially changed over the year.

Whatever your foreign-based income flow may be, it can accumulate in an interest earning account at home during the subsequent year until you need to transfer another lump sum to Thailand.

If you are concerned about volatility of exchange rates, most dollar, pound and Euro investments in stocks or fixed income investments have been bouncing around a lot too.

[fishhooks]

Perhaps you shouldn't write off the 800K-in-the-bank route so quickly.

The money only has to be in a savings account for 3 months prior to application for the extension.

Guderian.

******************************************

I thought that we have had recent reports that the 800K need not be specifically in a normal savings account and can be in an account such as "Term Deposit" ?

[Richard W]

you tell me why the levels are 65k month(what normal thai earns that) and what normal thai has 800 k, how do they get these figs, living here is very cheap and if you own and not rent cheaper still ....I am baffled.

Surely the purpose is to show that you are well-to-do, not that you are not destitute.

[peekint]

peekint: I monitor this area of Thaivisa posting quite closely and post whenever American experience is appropriate.

The Chiang Mai consulate has you fill out a form, that is in fact, a declaration that you have income, pension or other, equaling so much per month. I have posted before that in my considered opinion, any "income stream" which can be backed up by any reasonable method of proof, is more than adequate and even if you encounter a picky immigration officer, none in Chiang Mai at the moment, that first requests proof and then argues with your proof, can often be satisfied by what he requires to prove it. Usually, their understanding of available proofs are limited so he may have fixated on one he likes. I don't believe anyone has been asked by Chiang Mai Immigration for any proof to back up a Consulate Letter to date.

Certainly, the consulate doesn't ask for any backup proof. Many who post here regarding the shady nature of such pension letters or their impression on immigration are not aware that an American Citizen making a false declaration to a federal officer is subject to a 10k USD fine and imprisonment. Certainly, such a false declaration would be more than ample grounds for Thai Immigration to deport you, so, such a declaration may not be treated lightly by knowledgeable immigration officers, despite all of the rumor, innuendo and opinions generated from Pattaya Immigration or reported to have originated there.

I have posted that one can certainly set up many forms of investment vehicles or accounts in the U.S. that generate sufficient income to meet the 65K a month requirement and I would even opine, if annualized, it would be acceptable. Showing proof through documentation should be easy, certainly account deposit information coming from any reputable institution would be sufficient.

When your "income stream" falls short of the 800K a year requirement, immigration calculates the shortfall at 33 Baht to the Dollar at present and calculates what is needed in the bank to reach 800K. Watching immigration calculate my minor shortfall each year, I have noticed that they do not seem to pay attention to the monthly income requirement, only if the total income stream per year is 800k and how much is needed in the bank to meet that level, they don't seem to care if you meet the monthly requirement of 65k.

Thus I conclude that if you have an income stream of 800K a month or a combination of income stream and Thai bank balance equaling that amount, you are fine and I suspect any proof will be accepted, if ever asked for.

Thank you, this is very helpful. I wasn't sure how sophisticated the financial knowledge of the Thai immigration folks was. There are a lot of us silicon-valley types that really aren't going to be able to survive on, or even have access to government or company stipends. Instead, more and more have cash and investment vehicles that generate the monthly income. Sounds like the immigration folks don't need to understand this, because of the embassy letter.

I think I was under the mistaken assumption that the letter from the embassy was just to confirm a Social Security or other government-issued income. I didn't realize it was just a verification of your documentation (from whatever reliable financial source) of your income.

Now I am much clearer on this.

[vagabond48]

you tell me why the levels are 65k month(what normal thai earns that) and what normal thai has 800 k, how do they get these figs, living here is very cheap and if you own and not rent cheaper still ....I am baffled.

Althought I just got a one year non-immig "O" in the USA recently, I am puzzled as well. I could spend that money without any hardship but being a tightwad, I averaged about 10k/month for the 1st 9 months I spent here. I don't drink much except real juice, and don't have GF yet. Since my GH has a communal kitchen, I cook 1/2 my meals. I even do my own laundry. My goal this year is to increase my spending to 20k, still a bit shy of 65k.

I suspect the the Thai guvement (slang) would like us to spend the 65k+ for the privilege of staying here. Can't blame them.

Vagabond