Uk Government Immigration Review.

[Prakanong]

Yeah - like the majority of so called immigrants (the visa runners) are paying tax in Thailand who are living a better life than most Thai's.

Do many of them draw a salary while living in Thailand? I was under the impression that employment and property ownership is somewhat restricted for foreigners. Or are they mainly living off of personal savings or pensions? In the US, most taxes are taken out of income, property tax, sales tax, and taxes on the returns from investments (and there are some local taxes in certain cities). To be honest, I can't recall if there is sales tax in Thailand. I'm trying to think back to the last time I was there and bought a bar of soap or something at 7-11, and recall if there was sales tax. And what about property tax? Maybe one of the current residents in Thailand can fill me in.

Most are probably living on income savings, investments and pensions.

A minority are probably working illegally and an even smaller minority living on government handouts from oversea's.

Could Thailand tax this money - in theory they might try but in practice it would be very difficult if they wanted to remain an open liberal economy (and I am being very loos with that term)

So these guy's pay no direct taxation but they will pay some indirect taxes - not many places do charge the 7% + 10% though.

[Prakanong]

My opinion is swinging both ways with regard to this new requirement but I am edging on to agreeing with it. I ust also confess though I did not learn Thai when I lived there and did not learn French when I lived in Belgium - pure lazieness as there was no requirement.

Precisely. Just imagine the uproar if the Thai government insisted that anyone who wanted to marry a Thai would have to be fluent in the Thai language before the marriage could take place.

The proposal is not to bar marriage - its to get a settlement visa

The comparable case would be for the Thai government to have a Thai test for the 1 year "O" visa based on marriage!

Would that cause an uproar?

I bet with elections coming up it might be a vote winner - I am surprised Thaksin and the TRT never thought of this

PS: I am not learning Mandarin or Hokkien now in Singapore either. I am crap at languages and embarrassed as my best pal speaks

French

German

Spanish

Italian

Japanese

Korean

Serbo-Croat

He gets one of the highest allowance in the FCO for language skills.

[keekwai]

after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

Unless they spoke Thai of course !

[wilko]

My Mum would have been in a mess when she married Dad - she's Welsh and that's the first Language for most of her family. Does that mean we'll have to chuck the Welsh out of Britain?

PS - He wasn't born in Britain and his English was far from good - he had a "writing age" of 4....so he's have been

OK for TV contributions!

Edited December 7, 2007 by wilko

[englishoak]

I can't say i'm surprised at the new proposals, there are an awful lot of spouses/family members brought to the UK with absolutely no understanding of the English language. The vast majority of these are of Asian origin and as usual an abuse of the system has led to a knee jerk reaction that will affect all. Except the EU nationals ATM, I suspect they will also be subjected to a similar requirement in the future.

Human rights debate aside I don't have an issue with this request. This is about being able too prove an ability to communicate in the country you intend to LIVE in. I find this a reasonable request in principle although the level may be a bit high, but a basic level would be fine IMO.

And yes I my family could speak resonable English before we returned to the UK. I would also have no problem with a similar restriction in Thailand should I wish to live there. It would be great if that was a condition for a residents visa.

[wilko]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

UK (and Europe) doesn't particularly need SKILLS - it needs people to empty the bins and clean the loos etc. - I'm sure they don't need a whole lot of English to do that

[teacher]

I have lived in Thailand for 4 years and have retirement visa. There is no requirement for me to speak Thai to be able to stay.

However after you are able to apply for a residency visa and one requirment is the interview will be in Thai.

This new UK ruling is because they have opened the gates to EU and have no controls what so ever over the amout of people coming in.

I have helped many thai/western couples with there visa applications and to be honest, their are many who can not communicate with each other. My wife has to do the translation bit in between. In general the real Thai (Bangkok area) partners are usually ok. It seems to be the girls from up country ISAUN or LOAS who come down seeking a husband that seem to have the problems. Many (NOT ALL, i must be careful) are not that bright as they may have been dragged out of school at a very early age to work on the farms etc. Some of us come here and want to try to speak the Thai language and this does not help the situation.

One thing i will say is the girls do pick the english language up very quickly.

So really i dont see this as a bad thing

[wilko]

In my home town of Dewsbury. Children are starting school unable to speak English at an acceptable level. You see young adults at hospitals with their elderly relatives having to translate. All this because despite years spent living in the country, they can't or won't try to learn the language of their adopted country. These people are all from the India sub continent.

Racist claptrap - mods! Do your job!

[wilko]

I can't say i'm surprised at the new proposals, there are an awful lot of spouses/family members brought to the UK with absolutely no understanding of the English language. The vast majority of these are of Asian origin and as usual an abuse of the system has led to a knee jerk reaction that will affect all. Except the EU nationals ATM, I suspect they will also be subjected to a similar requirement in the future.

Human rights debate aside I don't have an issue with this request. This is about being able too prove an ability to communicate in the country you intend to LIVE in. I find this a reasonable request in principle although the level may be a bit high, but a basic level would be fine IMO.

And yes I my family could speak resonable English before we returned to the UK. I would also have no problem with a similar restriction in Thailand should I wish to live there. It would be great if that was a condition for a residents visa.

It's not what YOU think is reasonable....it's the government yhardstick that will be applied. Different cultures learn different things in English...how do you know your family would have passed the test until they take it?

[thaisail]

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

That's right and I think they have been carefully thought before announcing. It's reasonable. I wouldn't marry to someone I can't or able to have convo with.

What about speaking Thai?

[Prakanong]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

UK (and Europe) doesn't particularly need SKILLS - it needs people to empty the bins and clean the loos etc. - I'm sure they don't need a whole lot of English to do that

Sorry but we do need skills - at my own company we need scientists and virologists. Can not get them in Europe and can not get them to come (two Thai's went though) and that one of the reasons why we are building R&D facilities in China, Singapore and India.

This is not the only industry where skilled workers are required - we need Dr's, Nurses, Teachers, IT people etc

[nolan15]

I'm not intending to be critical just stating a fact. When one looks at the standard of english, the grammar and the spelling, that is commonly displayed on this discussion board, (I hope that a lot of it may in fact be due to typing errors!!) the majority presumably from native english speakers, then it puts into perspective the size of the challenge that Thai brides may face.

It is to be hoped that when the authorities introduce these rules that they will concentrate on the practical use and understanding of the language and not be expecting everyone to speak the Queen's english. I also hope that it will in fact be a verbal test rather than a written one since in my experience even the most fluent non-native english speaker can struggle with our written language. Words such as "their"/"there", "hear"/"here" etc. frequently trip up even the natives.

Whilst I agree that the premise behind the proposed requirements makes absolute sense, as always the devil will be in the details of what and how they are implemented.

I suggest that we should all monitor this situation closely and make appropriate representations to our MP's and others, it may be far more effective to be proactive rather than having to resort to the E.Court of Human Rights etc.,after the event.

It's also to be hoped that this doesn't give our hosts any new ideas about how to make life more difficult in this amazing place!!

[wilko]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

UK (and Europe) doesn't particularly need SKILLS - it needs people to empty the bins and clean the loos etc. - I'm sure they don't need a whole lot of English to do that

Sorry but we do need skills - at my own company we need scientists and virologists. Can not get them in Europe and can not get them to come (two Thai's went though) and that one of the reasons why we are building R&D facilities in China, Singapore and India.

This is not the only industry where skilled workers are required - we need Dr's, Nurses, Teachers, IT people etc

Listen - UK aand Europe need basic workers and labourers your company may need skills and as I said we don't PARTICULARLY need skillls now go and check it out....what you are saying is based on your own limited experience and a vast range of assumptions that are not based on fact!!!

Edited December 7, 2007 by wilko

[therealworld]

Whilst fully appreciating the need for the two parties to be able to converse otherwise what sort of marriage is it. It is my mind the standard of the so called test likely to be adopted. My wife obtained British citizenship and at the time had to pass ESOL 2. This revolved around conversation so she managed it. She had also passed her driving test and has had her own business and other work so she is contributing to the UK economy (when there).

However my point is that had she needed to take the latest English ESOL 3 and 'Life in the UK, she is unlikley to have passed. Indeed any UK citizen I believe would have difficulty.

So yes have a test but surely it should be based on conversation and perhaps some knowledge of the UK not the rediculous (some) questions that appear, and as mentioned who will be allowed test whilst abroad?

[wilko]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

UK (and Europe) doesn't particularly need SKILLS - it needs people to empty the bins and clean the loos etc. - I'm sure they don't need a whole lot of English to do that

[Prakanong]

I have lived in Thailand for 4 years and have retirement visa. There is no requirement for me to speak Thai to be able to stay.

However after you are able to apply for a residency visa and one requirment is the interview will be in Thai.

This new UK ruling is because they have opened the gates to EU and have no controls what so ever over the amout of people coming in.

I have helped many thai/western couples with there visa applications and to be honest, their are many who can not communicate with each other. My wife has to do the translation bit in between. In general the real Thai (Bangkok area) partners are usually ok. It seems to be the girls from up country ISAUN or LOAS who come down seeking a husband that seem to have the problems. Many (NOT ALL, i must be careful) are not that bright as they may have been dragged out of school at a very early age to work on the farms etc. Some of us come here and want to try to speak the Thai language and this does not help the situation.

One thing i will say is the girls do pick the english language up very quickly.

So really i dont see this as a bad thing

You argue against yourself with your bigotry and prejudice towards Isaan Thai's while saying Bangkok Thai's are somehow "real". On one hand you say the "Isaun" (obviously you are not that good at English yourself with that and LOAS) are not that bright then you say they pick up the language quickly.

You do pint in the right direction though with the lack of schooling - its that they lack education and not that they are not "Bright" in many cases.

Your EU point is a total straw man - there will be no language requirments for the EU nationals who have no restrictions.

[OurManinSamui2008]

i really can not see your problem the goverment is not telling you who or not to fall in love with as you know when you fall in love with a thai even before this rule it took time to get visa's to go anywhere out of thailand so during that time if your true love really loves you she/he would want to learn your langauge, it took a friend of mine 5 months to get her visa so true love always pervails

I was just widening the debate, Carole. This potential requirement is only the latest in a string of government acts which, introduced insidiously, strike at the fundamental meaning of democracy.

Scouse.

Scouse Hi, I was back in England a few months ago, and it seems to me the horse has already bolted, Poles Bulgs Russkies etc CANNOT SPEAK PAASA ANGRIT, and well the welfare seems to help them more than there own kind, so I sympathise with this debate, but Iam married to a Thai and we have been back a few times but the grilling is still on the agenda at the Airport, so the feeling I have that it is stopping sound cases, and letting tom dick and andropov, in at the drop of a hat, I am not a racist but you look at GB, ONLY AN ISLAND....but, we did welcome one and all, now it seems it is doing the Aussie bit which I feel should have been in place years ago....Enoch Powell said something years ago, slightly racist, in today's terms but it had an element of truth to it.

GB is well and truly buggered!

Si Thai

[Prakanong]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

UK (and Europe) doesn't particularly need SKILLS - it needs people to empty the bins and clean the loos etc. - I'm sure they don't need a whole lot of English to do that

Sorry but we do need skills - at my own company we need scientists and virologists. Can not get them in Europe and can not get them to come (two Thai's went though) and that one of the reasons why we are building R&D facilities in China, Singapore and India.

This is not the only industry where skilled workers are required - we need Dr's, Nurses, Teachers, IT people etc

Listen - UK aand Europe need basic workers and labourers your company may need skills and as I said we don't PARTICULARLY need skillls now go and check it out....what you are saying is based on your own limited experience and a vast range of assumptions that are not based on fact!!!

I am not talking about only my own company or industry (hence the mention of Dr's, Nurses, Teachers, IT people etc) - why the hel_l do we have the skilled migrant program if we do not need skills?

You my friend need to chck out the facts and not limit yourself to what is in your head and your own assumptions derived from Buddha knows where.

[Richard W]

My Mum would have been in a mess when she married Dad - she's Welsh and that's the first Language for most of her family. Does that mean we'll have to chuck the Welsh out of Britain?

Well, the Welsh have been banned from various towns in the past - even Caernarfon at one stage!

I expect speaking Welsh rather than English will be acceptable - not that that is likely to happen very often. (Has anyone yet got ILR on the basis of speaking Welsh or Gaelic rather than on the basis of speaking English?) However, will this rule be upheld by the courts? After all, if you settle in Leicester, Gujerati will be much more useful than Welsh!

[tropo]

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

I'm sure some people would prefer no converstaion.

[dawsonuk]

Quick quick ....shut the gate....the horse has gone.

Monkeys

[searcher22]

I have a friend in Canada who married a mail-order bride from Russia eight years ago and brought her over to live with him. He spoke English and French, she could only speak Russian. Today, she also speaks English and French, has a decent full-time job, and two kids. Where there is a will, there is a way. The government shouldn't be dictating who we can and cannot love.

[OdeTheBear]

I think being able to speak/understand english isnt an unreasonable rquirement - after all seems a bit odd that someone would marry a thai and not be able to have any meaningfull conversation with them.

That's right and I think they have been carefully thought before announcing. It's reasonable. I wouldn't marry to someone I can't or able to have convo with.

What about if you speak Thai?

On second thoughts...sometimes that might not be such a bad thing...

RAZZ

Now there's a thought - how about a person who's native language is English would learn to "convo" with another language? It has known to be happened, I have read about it somewhere....

True, coming to America or England or where ever one should speak the local language if he is supposed to build up a life in there from scratch. No arguments there, tests are a good idea. If a foreigner is commited enough he should show some proacivity. But if a Citizen is resettling home with his family why does the government have to force them to speak in English (or German) at home? Don't make no sense to me.

Ode

[Prakanong]

I have a friend in Canada who married a mail-order bride from Russia eight years ago and brought her over to live with him. He spoke English and French, she could only speak Russian. Today, she also speaks English and French, has a decent full-time job, and two kids. Where there is a will, there is a way. The government shouldn't be dictating who we can and cannot love.

The Government are not dictating who you can love - that is a complete misnomer

They are saying you should have a level of English (yet to be determined) before you can get a spouse visa.

[wrecker]

Well nothing wrong with a bride who can speak Englsih and a husband who is not depending on welfare. We all know that this is not aimed at Thai people but at tribes people from Pakistan and to a leser extend India and Bangladesh, just as it is aimed in mainland Europe at North Africans. Besides, I do not know may people in Thailand who are foreigners and married a Thai who received am genrous welcome. In Europe they will receive a passport after 6 years and they will nt be kicked out of the country after receiving a resident permit. In Thailand you will never receive one.

The bottomline, this is a non issue and should not have been placed in this forum.

[cobalto]

I wouldn't marry to someone I can't or able to have convo with.

Some people I know would be happier if they married with someone they can't have a converstation to...

P.S.: I am not one of these people, honey...

[Oliver Reed]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Wouldnt worry about this too much..The government will spend millions implementing this new legislation, some lobby from the Indian/ Pakistani community will play the racist card, there will be a test case at the court of human rights, which the government will spend millions defending, then lose, and will then be shelling out millions in compensation to the people who have in the meantime been turned away, the law will be scrapped while there is a re think, and the dilution of the identity of the great state that was once Great Britain will go on.

Sit back and watch the prophecy unfold...I must be getting cynical in my mid life

[Richard W]

I can't make sense of the time limits in this part of the proposal:

2.7 We also need to consider whether a failure to meet a requirement should lead to an outright refusal of any leave to enter the UK. If a spouse were to fail the test we could consider granting a period of temporary leave solely for the purpose of learning English in the UK. At the end of this temporary period they would be required demonstrate a certain level of English before being granted leave to remain for 2 years (what they would have received on arrival had they demonstrated the requirement in their country of origin). This temporary leave would therefore mean that some people would take longer to qualify for settlement.

Surely the two year 'probationary' period is intended to weed out cases where the union was not intended to be permanent. Unless this means that indefinite leave can be applied for between 23 months of the visa start time and the later of 24 months thereafter or 24 months after demonstrating an elementary grasp of English, this seems wrong.

Incidentally, can we take it that the tests will not penalise the sorts of grammatical error this document is peppered with?

[mrtoad]

Whilst the theory will clearly resonate with a significant number of Native British people, in effect it is a typical "New Labour" spin, that does not really address any of the significant immigration problems. As highlighted the majority of immigration at present is from Eastern European countries, and these people will more than liely be exempted. What Labour does with one hand, it takes with the other. A complete farce, but as Scouse pointed out, one that will probably load some cronies palms with gold, through the language contracts.

[gjones]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

I live a happy life in Thailand I have not left the place in 5 years, it’s pure magic I am happy, my kids are safe, no big brother, reasonable life, better health care a dentist on every street, nice beer and the women, yes forget the UK

However, I read somewhere that the Welsh are the eldest living indigenous people in the UK; maybe the new immigration rules should be revised that all new applicants should speak Welsh and not English.

Now that would reduce the numbers applying