A Rant + A Polite Request For Native Speakers

[Ijustwannateach]

In the teacher's forum our rule is generally more about hijacking a thread with no other purpose in mind but criticising spelling/grammar, which inevitably destroys the thread; we allow criticism of spelling and other writing "issues" when the poster is asking about his fitness to be a teacher- I suppose a thread on the topic itself would also be suitable subject matter, though I don't know how popular.

Usually what happens when someone starts this kind of thing, however, is that someone else goes over the opening sally with a fine-toothed comb and finds a number of errors. The OP has been lucky enough so far to escape that in this thread, and he does have a number of errors. "Taking out the log from thine own eye" aside, it's also rarely clear from posts alone who is or is not a native speaker, as there are so many near-native-speaking foreign posters here.

"S"

[mr_hippo]

In the teacher's forum our rule is generally more about hijacking a thread with no other purpose in mind but criticising spelling/grammar, which inevitably destroys the thread; we allow criticism of spelling and other writing "issues" when the poster is asking about his fitness to be a teacher- I suppose a thread on the topic itself would also be suitable subject matter, though I don't know how popular.

Usually what happens when someone starts this kind of thing, however, is that someone else goes over the opening sally with a fine-toothed comb and finds a number of errors. The OP has been lucky enough so far to escape that in this thread, and he does have a number of errors. "Taking out the log from thine own eye" aside, it's also rarely clear from posts alone who is or is not a native speaker, as there are so many near-native-speaking foreign posters here.

"S"

Feel free to point out where you think my errors are.

[cm-happy]

Mr. Hippo reminds me of some of my old prissy English teachers. My papers were sometimes returned covered in red markings for grammer, spelling, sentence consructs, punctuation.

Lets give Mr. Hippo his own red pencil!.

[Scott]

It's common courtesy to try and write posts that are clear and easy to read. There are a lot of people from different regions trying to read and decipher what has been posted. I've been chastised because I have asked a question that someone tells me was answered. I go back to the post, but can't decipher what the poster meant. Somehow, however, I am the one who is wrong.

Of course, there are folks who try to be witty, use puns etc. These are appreciated and it's usually clear what they mean, even if I don't get it!

Good thread.

[Ijustwannateach]

Mr. Hippo,

Your weakness seems to be punctuation. There are numerous inconsistencies- you sometimes use apostrophes where quotation marks would normally be required; furthermore, you avoid the recommended use of commas after introductory clauses and before conjunctions. Your language is perfectly clear and I do understand what you are saying... but there's always an even stricter sensibility than the one with which you are comfortable. That's why I usually find myself on the more permissive end of these kinds of debates about public language.

Personally, I agree with you about "phonespeak" and don't even use it when composing phone messages, but I am not irritated enough over the issue to complain about it. Lead by example, and all that.

[OlRedEyes]

Someone said it somewhere in this thread already methinks. You should get out more.

[a2396]

Why can't/don't you write in decent English? I have heard all the excuses and they don't work!

1) 'It's only the internet so it does not matter.' Who says it does not matter?

2) 'I was in a rush.' Your reader may also be in a rush and although you may have a valid point, why should we waste time trying to decipher it?

3) 'You know what I mean." Do we? I don't think there are any mind readers here.

4) "You know that 'y' means 'why' and 'u' means 'you' so what is your problem? Are you limited to the number of characters that you are allowed here? Apart from in the Thai language section - English is the site language (see forum rules)

5) I can't spell." Have you heard of spell-check and on-line dictionaries?

Whether you like it or not, we are all teachers. OK, we may not be employed as teachers but who taught your little brother how to kick a football? Who taught your daughter how to tie her shoe laces? And with your tuition, your mate can now strip and rebuild a carburettor!

A lot of posters on this forum do not claim English as their first or even second language - a friend of mine lists English as his seventh! - how many languages can you speak, apart from English, Gibberish and Rubbish? What do non-native speakers get out of this site? They get information, advice and entertainment but they get also get what no English course offers them. How we native speakers use English and not 'phrase book English'. When Mrs Hippo went to England the first time, I was at my eldest daughter's house drinking a cup of tea and she heard my daughter say to me "Your tea's on the table, Dad." Mrs Hippo looked at me, then at the cup and again at me and said "You've already got a cup of tea!" Where I was brought up, we have breakfast, dinner and tea - only posh people have breakfast, lunch and dinner!

So, native speakers, you should be proud of your native land and native tongue but, above all, you should be proud of the work that you publish here. If people cannot easily read your post, they may get the impression that you are uneducated and your opinion is worthless - is that what you want?

OK, rant mode switched off!

As you well know, many posters here may not have the advantage of having English as their native language. So, don't expect them to be proficient in the King's English. Additionally, there are some here, whose native language is English, but seem to lack the ability to write coherent statements. Don't expect to much. This is not an intellectual forum, by any means.

[PeaceBlondie]

What's the sense in opening your mouth to exercise the vocal chords, or in putting your fingers on the keyboard to write in English, if you don't COMMUNICATE? As IJWT has pointed out, Mr. Hippo's opening post is well phrased and the intent is clear, so he communicated. Some readers, however, think the OP is too pedantic, but he said nothing about the language of the English king or queen. In fact, he admitted to lower 'class upbringing' than that.

Most of us would like to know what you mean, and we can only understand you if you make it clear. Perhaps half of the arguments on ThaiVisa stem from misunderstandings over what the poster really meant, and what other posters wrongly inferred from what he said.

Sometimes ThaiVisa is an intellectual forum, or an informational forum, or a good-times humour forum. If you don't write clearly, we won't get your message. owieurowieur23r542\3= You know what I mean?

[mr_hippo]

Mr. Hippo,

Your weakness seems to be punctuation. There are numerous inconsistencies- you sometimes use apostrophes where quotation marks would normally be required; furthermore, you avoid the recommended use of commas after introductory clauses and before conjunctions. Your language is perfectly clear and I do understand what you are saying... but there's always an even stricter sensibility than the one with which you are comfortable. That's why I usually find myself on the more permissive end of these kinds of debates about public language.

Personally, I agree with you about "phonespeak" and don't even use it when composing phone messages, but I am not irritated enough over the issue to complain about it. Lead by example, and all that.

What you describe as a weakness is just a difference in style, Americans tend to use the Oxford comma but I do not. This thread is not about technicalities such as the typewriter apostrophe and the Oxford comma. Debates on these two have been going round for years with no end in sight!

Lets give Mr. Hippo his own red pencil!.

Personally, I would prefer a blue pencil! I do not recall saying about correcting mistakes, just asking posters to take more care.

Someone said it somewhere in this thread already methinks. You should get out more.

Thanks for your concern but I already have quite an active life!

As you well know, many posters here may not have the advantage of having English as their native language. So, don't expect them to be proficient in the King's English. Additionally, there are some here, whose native language is English, but seem to lack the ability to write coherent statements. Don't expect to much. This is not an intellectual forum, by any means.

Sorry to be pedantic but it has been the Queen's English for the past 55 years! I have often complemented non-native speakers on their use of English. Native speakers and lacking the ability to write coherent statements, isn't that one of the things I brought up? Most of the time it is sheer laziness on their part and the "They know what I mean" attitude.

Whilst agreeing that this is not an intellectual forum neither is it an illiterate forum.

[Northpoint]

But when they use “piss” one wonders if it as a bodily function, a slur, or a glass of beer. It’s sometimes hard to be sure. But not to pick on the Aussies, who seem to be a rather congenial group; I mention them because they seem to be the majority of the expats in LOS.

Bloody oath.

[Stephen Cleary]

Yeah....i agree wit Mr Ippo on this one. The <deleted> standard a english on this bleedin forum is pafetic, its like no one ere went to school - ought to be ashamed of themselfs.

The worse geezers of all is them plastic know it all english teachers. Now i should no coz i'm a teacher, some of me workmates cannae even write a proper fookin email withoot makin 25 darned speling and grammer mistakes. Ya ought tae see these wombats in class like, the poxy students speek better english than them! And i'm no bull-shiteing!

I advice that Mr Goerge geezer guy who runs this site, to seroiusly clamp doon on on all the members ere that cannae right a <deleted> decent sentence in the English langauge. That means if they cant buck up there ideas they ought to be bannned!

Edited December 11, 2007 by Stephen Cleary

[ZukiSuzuki]

Well, i am sorry if my English is not up to standard of the native English speakers, however English is my 4th language.

I will try harder sir.

Zuki.

[OlRedEyes]

Well, i am sorry if my English is not up to standard of the native English speakers, however English is my 4th language.

I will try harder sir.

Zuki.

I think 'sir' should be capitalized? Like in 'Sir', like?

[sbk]

I believe Mr Hippo already made it clear that this rant was not aimed at non-native speakers of english. Merely read the title to be sure.

That said, there are several posters out there who are, at times, nearly impossible to understand. And English is their native language. Or supposed to be anyway. Many are the times I have seen some of these posters ask a question to be answered with "What are you talking about?" If no one understands you, then you aren't communicating. Simple as that.

[Jingthing]

Unclear writing reflects negatively on the writer and sometimes reflects foggy thinking.

I am no purist in my writing or reading. Sometimes breaking "rules" is fun and when done selectively communicates even more. However, my bit pet peeve is UNCLEAR communication.

For example:

Gone native yet, in the eating utensil department?

I have noticed without thinking sometimes eating non-Thai food the Thai fork into spoon way.

Talk about "pot, kettle, black!!"

You were the only person to complain that the Thai fork into spoon way survey was incomprehensible.

Still time to vote on this critical issue:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...nto+spoon\

Edited December 11, 2007 by Jingthing

[mr_hippo]

Well, i am sorry if my English is not up to standard of the native English speakers, however English is my 4th language.

I will try harder sir.

Zuki.

My piece is directed to native speakers. Your standard of English is far superior to a lot of native speakers here.

Please keep up with your excellent postings.

Hippo

[JetsetBkk]

You were the only person to complain that the Thai fork into spoon way survey was incomprehensible.

I wasn't the only one who didn't understand what you meant by "push fork into spoon":

Irrespective of your perception of credulity I also do not understand the question.

Still time to vote on this critical issue:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...nto+spoon\

Already voted, mate! "All the time" for Thai food, and "Sometimes" for farang (I think).

[blizzard]

hows about making engrit yr first language. the world rebolbes around engrit.

[JSixpack]

Well, it's just too much to expect our illiterate posters to learn English at this point in their lives. Like the representative Mr. Kevin, who posts here under a wide variety of usernames,

Mr. Kevin

they have tried--in elementary school--and had little success. They don't know what a spelling checker or grammar checker is, don't want to learn, wouldn't use them if they knew. Actually, they don't speak standard English anyway: they speak various dialects such as Brummie or Geordie. And are perversely proud of it, too--which is why you will receive a lot of silly trollish comments in this thread. However, there is no automatic translation facility from Geordie, for example, to English, though there is one from English to Geordie, if you must try to communicate with a Geordie speaker to discuss lager, birds, or football.

http://www.geordie.org.uk/

Geordie English

How man mutha man. Please mother don't embarass me.

Ye knaa what ah mean leik. Do you know what I mean?

Eeeh man, ahm gannin te the booza. OK, I have had enough, I am going to the bar.

Whees i' the netty? Who's in the lavatory?

Gan canny or we'll dunsh summick. Be carefull or we will crash into something.

So one learns to ignore the incomprehensible, abysmally ignorant, or simply wrong-headed painful keyboard peckers (pun intended) and only read the minority of literate postings with the useful information or informed opinions worth discussing. Too bad there's no filter as in Usenet clients to simply delete the illiterates before one even sees them. But in a web board, unfortunately, one must scroll through ALL the posts.

Perhaps there should be special subforums so that these non-standard English speakers can discuss comfortably among themselves.

[raslin]

Mr. Hippo,

Your weakness seems to be punctuation. There are numerous inconsistencies- you sometimes use apostrophes where quotation marks would normally be required; furthermore, you avoid the recommended use of commas after introductory clauses and before conjunctions. Your language is perfectly clear and I do understand what you are saying... but there's always an even stricter sensibility than the one with which you are comfortable. That's why I usually find myself on the more permissive end of these kinds of debates about public language.

Personally, I agree with you about "phonespeak" and don't even use it when composing phone messages, but I am not irritated enough over the issue to complain about it. Lead by example, and all that.

Which misguided soul recommends the use of commas before conjunctions? Bacon, and eggs? Which school did he/she go to?

[PeaceBlondie]

JSixpack, I believe that ThaiVisa, like many forums, has an IGNORE feature that makes the posters invisible, so you won't have to suffer reading their postings unless it's quoted by someone you're not ignoring.

[JSixpack]

JSixpack, I believe that ThaiVisa, like many forums, has an IGNORE feature that makes the posters invisible, so you won't have to suffer reading their postings unless it's quoted by someone you're not ignoring.

Hey, hey! Didn't know that. Thanks!

[CarlBkk]

I must support Mr Hippo.

Thaivisa is generally well-known as one of the more respectable and useful sources of information with a good number of intelligent and specialised members willing to contribute regularly. In that case, good English is needed to be able to convey precise and descriptive answers. Shit English and spelling is more akin to many other forums where information and contributions range from the price of a beer to the Missus back home.

[ade100]

Mr. Hippo,

Your weakness seems to be punctuation. There are numerous inconsistencies- you sometimes use apostrophes where quotation marks would normally be required; furthermore, you avoid the recommended use of commas after introductory clauses and before conjunctions. Your language is perfectly clear and I do understand what you are saying... but there's always an even stricter sensibility than the one with which you are comfortable. That's why I usually find myself on the more permissive end of these kinds of debates about public language.

Personally, I agree with you about "phonespeak" and don't even use it when composing phone messages, but I am not irritated enough over the issue to complain about it. Lead by example, and all that.

Which misguided soul recommends the use of commas before conjunctions? Bacon, and eggs? Which school did he/she go to?

Yes I noticed that but didn't like to say anything. "Comma before a conjunction"? Could someone explain this rule? "Reading, and writing". Sounds like the way Chandler from "Friends" speaks.

[mr_hippo]

Yes I noticed that but didn't like to say anything. "Comma before a conjunction"? Could someone explain this rule? "Reading, and writing". Sounds like the way Chandler from "Friends" speaks.

We are now getting into the realm of pedantry. Look up Oxford comma, Harvard comma or serial comma. This 'debate' has been going on for hundreds of years! It is not used every time so the two examples of 'Reading, and writing' and 'Bacon, and eggs' are wrong, it is used mainly in longer lists. I will not quote examples or uses as these can be found on the 'net.

[ade100]

Yes I noticed that but didn't like to say anything. "Comma before a conjunction"? Could someone explain this rule? "Reading, and writing". Sounds like the way Chandler from "Friends" speaks.

We are now getting into the realm of pedantry. Look up Oxford comma, Harvard comma or serial comma. This 'debate' has been going on for hundreds of years! It is not used every time so the two examples of 'Reading, and writing' and 'Bacon, and eggs' are wrong, it is used mainly in longer lists. I will not quote examples or uses as these can be found on the 'net.

Well, well. I am enlightened. I had always wondered how to resolve ambiguity in lists. From now on I shall be saying "I like reggae, funk, rhythm and blues, and jazz."

Apologies. Pedantry over with.

[mr_hippo]

Without the Oxford comma - "I like reggae, rhythm and blues, funk and jazz."

[marshbags]

The new word for today: pedantic

Should be Titanic and those who cannot understand the content of posters comments or need them to be grammar / spell perfect

Only joking just as u ar i wuld oap.

Perhaps i and fellow Yorkies should post in the equivalent of our local dialects.

Yud reely av sumut to ponder abatt then mi owd fella members.

Talk about intellectual misuse of fair play and understanding.

Quote by C.BKK :-

Thaivisa is generally well-known as one of the more respectable and useful sources of information with a good number of intelligent and specialised members willing to contribute regularly. In that case, good English is needed to be able to convey precise and descriptive answers.

Unquote.

Oh well if that,s the case the rest of us might as well log out and go walk about.

Extracting the urine comes to mind, big time if your really serious.

Get a life if this is all you spend your time towin abart.

marshbags

Edited December 13, 2007 by marshbags

[ade100]

The new word for today: pedantic

Should be Titanic and those who cannot understand the content of posters comments or need them to be grammar / spell perfect

Only joking just as u ar i wuld oap.

Perhaps i and fellow Yorkies should post in the equivalent of our local dialects.

Yud reely av sumut to ponder abatt then mi owd fella members.

Talk about intellectual misuse of fair play and understanding.

Quote by C.BKK :-

Thaivisa is generally well-known as one of the more respectable and useful sources of information with a good number of intelligent and specialised members willing to contribute regularly. In that case, good English is needed to be able to convey precise and descriptive answers.

Unquote.

Oh well if that,s the case the rest of us might as well log out and go walk about.

Extracting the urine comes to mind, big time if your really serious.

Get a life if this is all you spend your time towin abart.

marshbags

Ayup, tha’s rate morngey thee.

[JacknDanny]

Sir, whilst I may agree in principle, I would like to see for myself the offending post that triggered your original statement.

I think it would be the 1,200 or so posts from a particular person.