Road To Doi Saket

[Gonzo the Face]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

[Flatouthruthefog]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

Sadly I saw it all. Thursday late morning. Bus to Chiang Rai being driven sensibly at about 70-80 kph north at km post 9. Male moron on motorcycle pulled out straight in front of the bus from the left, heading off towards the U-turn gap. This apology for the human race just never looked to his right at oncoming traffic!

Bus driver swerved violently to the right, just clipping the bike but sadly careering all the way through the central gap, bus up on 2 wheels, hitting 2 pick ups and a girl on a motorcycle before coming to rest off the road on its side on the grass, small Mazda pick up underneath with one male occupant - instantly dead.

Motorcycle girl (no helmet of course), alive and unmarked but apparently with serious back injury, taken away on a pick up before arrival of (many) ambulances 10 mins later.

The other pick up was a yellow seelor travelling southbound. Driver semiconscious, totally trapped in the wreck and bleeding heavily from the head. Eventually (after 25 mins?) freed by ambulancemen and taken away on a stretcher in a neck brace, bleeding having been stopped. Hope very much he survived. Two of his passengers in the back had less serious injuries.

Occupants of the bus amazingly escaped with very minor injuries, the worst being an elderly monk bleeding from the head. Four French tourists with minor cuts and bruises, attended to by a French speaking expat witness. Said they did not need to go to hospital. Bus driver had minor concussion and shock.

I fear the police will try to put some blame on him despite my statement to the contrary, sketch map and showing them later how it happened using model cars! Here in Thailand there is still the tendency to always blame the driver of the larger vehicle. Unless it is a poo-yai Merc of course.

And the culprit bike rider? Mixed reports. Either he was fit enough to do a runner, or someone took him off to hospital before the feds arrived. At least they have the bike and should be able to trace him. Should!

Sickening how it is usually the innocent who suffer. We could all have been in that bus, or in its path!

The best thing the police did was traffic control. The ambulance personnel were excellent and several were English speaking. All arrived promptly.

But out on the roads, this very sadly is STILL the 3rd world.

[Flatouthruthefog]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

I have agonised a bit about my last post and wish to add a PS.

It sounds rather as if I saw it all happen, said to myself "Ho Hum, TIT!" and walked away.

In fact my male farang passenger and I waded in immediately, stopped the bus engine (but no exterior cut-off, as in the west), found the one body whom no-one could help, staunched the bleeding of one of the worst wounded and helped the (amazingly mildly injured) passengers out of the bus.

When the medics arrived we directed them to the most urgent cases, then helped police control traffic. Two other expat farangs, one man (Swiss?) and a young English lady also mucked in, as did many locals, and did their best.

I will now try to ensure the police don't blame the bus driver. There is still some sort of Pavlovian reaction around here to try to blame the driver of the biggest vehicle involved. Or any farang driver.

NB farangs: Do not apply to drive buses or trucks!!

[siam-i-am]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

I have agonised a bit about my last post and wish to add a PS.

It sounds rather as if I saw it all happen, said to myself "Ho Hum, TIT!" and walked away.

In fact my male farang passenger and I waded in immediately, stopped the bus engine (but no exterior cut-off, as in the west), found the one body whom no-one could help, staunched the bleeding of one of the worst wounded and helped the (amazingly mildly injured) passengers out of the bus.

When the medics arrived we directed them to the most urgent cases, then helped police control traffic. Two other expat farangs, one man (Swiss?) and a young English lady also mucked in, as did many locals, and did their best.

I will now try to ensure the police don't blame the bus driver. There is still some sort of Pavlovian reaction around here to try to blame the driver of the biggest vehicle involved. Or any farang driver.

NB farangs: Do not apply to drive buses or trucks!!

Didn't read TIT in post at all good report Flatout.

[mcgriffith]

God Bless you, Flatout, for your good deeds.

[mikethevigoman]

Any one have any information of a traffic accident yesterday eve I think somewhere on the Chiang Rai Highway, between the 2nd ring road and Doi Saket? I was told a bus was involved and there were a number of fatalities.

Sadly I saw it all. Thursday late morning. Bus to Chiang Rai being driven sensibly at about 70-80 kph north at km post 9. Male moron on motorcycle pulled out straight in front of the bus from the left, heading off towards the U-turn gap. This apology for the human race just never looked to his right at oncoming traffic!

Bus driver swerved violently to the right, just clipping the bike but sadly careering all the way through the central gap, bus up on 2 wheels, hitting 2 pick ups and a girl on a motorcycle before coming to rest off the road on its side on the grass, small Mazda pick up underneath with one male occupant - instantly dead.

Motorcycle girl (no helmet of course), alive and unmarked but apparently with serious back injury, taken away on a pick up before arrival of (many) ambulances 10 mins later.

The other pick up was a yellow seelor travelling southbound. Driver semiconscious, totally trapped in the wreck and bleeding heavily from the head. Eventually (after 25 mins?) freed by ambulancemen and taken away on a stretcher in a neck brace, bleeding having been stopped. Hope very much he survived. Two of his passengers in the back had less serious injuries.

Occupants of the bus amazingly escaped with very minor injuries, the worst being an elderly monk bleeding from the head. Four French tourists with minor cuts and bruises, attended to by a French speaking expat witness. Said they did not need to go to hospital. Bus driver had minor concussion and shock.

I fear the police will try to put some blame on him despite my statement to the contrary, sketch map and showing them later how it happened using model cars! Here in Thailand there is still the tendency to always blame the driver of the larger vehicle. Unless it is a poo-yai Merc of course.

And the culprit bike rider? Mixed reports. Either he was fit enough to do a runner, or someone took him off to hospital before the feds arrived. At least they have the bike and should be able to trace him. Should!

Sickening how it is usually the innocent who suffer. We could all have been in that bus, or in its path!

The best thing the police did was traffic control. The ambulance personnel were excellent and several were English speaking. All arrived promptly.

But out on the roads, this very sadly is STILL the 3rd world.

Well done buddy, i hope you get the thanks you deserve,.

[Donnyboy]

what is it about the rule that the driver of the bigger vehical gets the blame?

late last night, I was travelling at speed of about 65km down a main rd when a motorcycle came flying out of a small soi from my left at at distance of about 40 meters. He obviously saw me as he proceeded to drive along the curbside on my left at the same time I flicked my lights at him to let him know my presence. He probably didnt like that as he decided to come at me head-on, making me swerve to my right and avoiding a collision. My girlfriend started freaking out whilst I was cursing as we narrowly missed him.

I was contemplating what would have happened if I had hit him, and the repercussions that would follow. Would I be likely to be charged/blamed as I was in a car, and he on a motorbike?

If that was the case, I understand why many motorists fail to stop after being involved in an accident, not that I condone that behaviour.

[jackr]

Good on ya foggy

The amount of times I've had to swerve after some numb nut pulled out without looking is bewildering. Usually a doris to boot, with one hand on the throttle and the other covering her eyes from the sun. tut, tut.

[realthaideal]

The rarely-heard-from TV-er Ollylama calls this the "Left Hand Turn From God" because it's as if there was a divine right to jut out into the street and turn into lanes of oncoming traffic with no regard as to who is coming and might need to swerve or slam on the brakes. I hate that this happens. In the land of Buddha it is odd that they don't get 'the flow' of things and force traffic to be reactive rather than proactive. The idea of right-of-way should be a mandatory part of mandatory driver's license applications. (Keep dreaming I know....)

Thru The Fog, if you would, please keep us informed of the proceedings with the police or the recovery of the accident victims if you have any info. I once witnessed an accident and was first on scene and called the paramedics. When I went to visit the victim in hospital I had a nice opportunity to meet his worried family and learn about him. It was a nice chance to make a connection and distract them from their crying temporarily while we chatted. He eventually recovered.

[PlaShadow]

I drove past the scene probably just after most of the injured had been taken away, but it was awful to see anyway.

As Flatouthruthefog predicted, it seems the blame is on the driver of the bus:

http://www.chiangmai-mail.com/current/news.shtml#hd2

Getting also on the subject of Chiang Mai Mail, how come they print such contradicting message, do they not have the journalist skills to ask the police how it can be:

"tour bus swerved to avoid two motorcycles that cut across its path causing it to lose control"

"Mr Sarawut, the bus driver, was detained by police for more questioning and charged with reckless driving."

Once again this case supports the theory that one of the most stupid, useless and pointless life forms on earth, are indeed young Thai boys on motor cycles!

[Flatouthruthefog]

Good on ya foggy

The amount of times I've had to swerve after some numb nut pulled out without looking is bewildering. Usually a doris to boot, with one hand on the throttle and the other covering her eyes from the sun. tut, tut.

Agree with all your realistic remarks here.

Unfortunately the bus driver HAS been charged with reckless driving, about the only part of the CM Mail report which was accurate. But of course their only source was the police. No-one at the Mail now who would think about phoning the bus company........!

(I see there's another thread running on them at present).

I have phoned the bus company and volunteered to be a witness in his defence when the case comes up. Hope they take me up on it for his sake.

It seems the real culprit, the biker, has been found but no info whether or not the feds have charged him too. The only good news, which came today, is that the driver of the yellow seelor, whom I last saw semi-conscious, bleeding from the head and in a temporary neck brace (while still trapped in his cab) has miraculously recovered enough to be discharged from hospital. So only 1 dead (so far as is known) from all that carnage is incredible.

More as I know it. Be safe over the holidays, as ever!

[ollylama]

The rarely-heard-from TV-er Ollylama calls this the "Left Hand Turn From God" because it's as if there was a divine right to jut out into the street and turn into lanes of oncoming traffic with no regard as to who is coming and might need to swerve or slam on the brakes. I hate that this happens. In the land of Buddha it is odd that they don't get 'the flow' of things and force traffic to be reactive rather than proactive. The idea of right-of-way should be a mandatory part of mandatory driver's license applications. (Keep dreaming I know....)

Thru The Fog, if you would, please keep us informed of the proceedings with the police or the recovery of the accident victims if you have any info. I once witnessed an accident and was first on scene and called the paramedics. When I went to visit the victim in hospital I had a nice opportunity to meet his worried family and learn about him. It was a nice chance to make a connection and distract them from their crying temporarily while we chatted. He eventually recovered.

Actually I called it the the Left Hand Turn Of God, a snarky reference to the "Hand of God" play that Pele pulled off (or someone, I'm not a big football aficionado). Basically implying that even though a major transgression has transpired, it's really all in the hands of the fates as to what the referee's call will be and the guilty party may get away with it despite the truth or morality of the event. Regardless, it's one of the most utterly idiotic and selfish things I've ever seen anywhere. It basically assumes that "some one will make room for me." Infantility in its extreme form, and certainly the cause of a large portion of traffic accidents here. If it happened only sometime, I wouldn't care as much, but the behavior has been practically institutionalized. No one EVER looks to see if someone is coming. Boggles the mind.

[cmsally]

You think that's bad, last week I experienced the Right hand turn of God near Nong Hoi market. A motorcylist assuming both lanes of traffic would have enough space, one to cut through and the one I was in, being the second lane - to fit into.

Luckily first lane had just enough space but I had to slam on the brakes in order to just miss him.

[Crow Boy]

Actually I called it the the Left Hand Turn Of God, a snarky reference to the "Hand of God" play that Pele pulled off (or someone, I'm not a big football aficionado). Basically implying that even though a major transgression has transpired, it's really all in the hands of the fates as to what the referee's call will be and the guilty party may get away with it despite the truth or morality of the event. Regardless, it's one of the most utterly idiotic and selfish things I've ever seen anywhere. It basically assumes that "some one will make room for me." Infantility in its extreme form, and certainly the cause of a large portion of traffic accidents here. If it happened only sometime, I wouldn't care as much, but the behavior has been practically institutionalized. No one EVER looks to see if someone is coming. Boggles the mind.

Part of the problem is that your expectations and reality are not congruent. The left hand turn is with the traffic and everyone knows that on the road you need to care about what is in front of you, consequently everyone behind will make adjustment to allow the person into the lane. It really is quite simple and despite what you think actually works. In Cambodia the motorcycles remove the mirrors to make this even more obvious. Anyone who drives or rides here and does not expect the person in front of them to suddenly pull into their lane or come out of a side soi is heading for an accident. Very occasionally I will get someone who comes out faster or wider than I expect but that is par for the course. Someone posted earlier that they can not understand why Thais do this when they should go with the flow in a Buddhist way - hate to point out the obvious but this is exactly what they are doing. Other option is the western way where you sit stuck in the side road getting frustrated because every driver in the main road is staring fixedly and refusing to acknowledge your presence let alone actually letting you enter into the stream.

CB

[Rasseru]

. . . I fear the police will try to put some blame on [the bus driver] . . .

Not necessarily an irrational thing to do, I think, in all the circumstances as you described them (and so well too). One could reasonably say that, from the perspective of the injured and dead, the bus driver had a responsibility not to translate the foolishness of one man on a motorcycle into their injuries and deaths by reacting in a way that did not take into consideration the fact that they were there. In other words, hit the motorcyclist or, better yet, of course, pick a safe way to avoid that, but in no circumstances swerve a large bus with deadly and injurious effect into the drivers of smaller and exposed vehicles.

[wolfmanjack]

. . . I fear the police will try to put some blame on [the bus driver] . . .

Not necessarily an irrational thing to do, I think, in all the circumstances as you described them (and so well too). One could reasonably say that, from the perspective of the injured and dead, the bus driver had a responsibility not to translate the foolishness of one man on a motorcycle into their injuries and deaths by reacting in a way that did not take into consideration the fact that they were there. In other words, hit the motorcyclist or, better yet, of course, pick a safe way to avoid that, but in no circumstances swerve a large bus with deadly and injurious effect into the drivers of smaller and exposed vehicles.

Any one who has had someone unexpectedly pull out in front of you while doing 85 kilometers per hour would not make a comment like that. It happens so fast that you do not have time to think let alone look for a safe way to avoid hitting the offending motorcycle. In most cases you are talking about surprise with split seconds before collision which only leaves pure reaction.

I hope the bus driver gets off and the motorcycle driver gets the reckless driving charge or better yet a more serious charge.

[wolfmanjack]

everyone knows that on the road you need to care about what is in front of you,

CB

I guess the motorcycle companies and car companies are putting the rear view and side view mirrors on the vehicles just so they can sell mirrors.

They are there so you can check if it is safe to change lanes. The same applies for turning into traffic. Look before you go. If you can't get out because of too much traffic then inch your way out until someone stops and hope no one hits you in the process. Don't just go out in traffic when you are coming from a side road at 10 km per hour into traffic that is traveling 85 km per hour.

[Rasseru]

Any one who has had someone unexpectedly pull out in front of you while doing 85 kilometers per hour would not make a comment like that.

You're wrong. I have had such things, even worse than that in fact (higher speeds), happen to me, and I made and stand by the comment.

I would not disagree, though, that the motorcyclist was primarily responsible.

[Donnyboy]

theres always variables when ascertaining crashes ie road conditions and environment, driver ability & state, car worthiness, speed, et al.

Lets hope the police can do their job diligently and not make any hasty conclusions based on vehicle size

[Greenside]

Any one who has had someone unexpectedly pull out in front of you while doing 85 kilometers per hour would not make a comment like that.

You're wrong. I have had such things, even worse than that in fact (higher speeds), happen to me, and I made and stand by the comment.

I would not disagree, though, that the motorcyclist was primarily responsible.

It's been worrying me greatly that there is even a chance that the bus driver will be blamed for the incident as reported above.

In common with others here, I've avoided my share of accidents in similar circumstances (not only in this country, I might add) and sometimes taken evasive action reflexively where in retrospect I could have lost control of the car putting my passengers at risk. So some lives possibly saved, but not part of a well thought out approach to road safety.

It would take a really well trained and experienced driver, more rational than reflexive to decide to hit the bike rather than swerve and I fear there aren't many of those on the roads here. Furthermore, the minutae of a situation like this are hugely important - travel a few km/hr faster or the bike appears just a dozen metres further away and everything changes. In my view, the bike driver sounds as if he should suffer all the blame although there's certainly a lot of room for improved training for bus drivers as well.

I'm about to start teaching my girlfriend to drive and I know it's going to be a daunting and nervewracking task. The "only concern yourself with what's in front of you" approach commonly practiced on roads predominently populated with flocks of motorbikes does seem to work if everyone follows the rule to the letter and speeds are relatively slow, but it just doesn't translate into modern highway situations.

"He shouldn't have done that." I tell her as I jam on the brakes to avoid crushing a guy on a bike who just pulled out almost under my front wheels, bracing myself for the strong likelyhood that the car behind will rear-end us. "Everyone do it." she points out, and she's right. Teaching her the western rules of right of way (which I'm trying to do before letting her get anywhere near actually driving) often involves stopping to wait for a Thai driver to get the message that I want him to go first plus a lot of gesticulating and under the breath cursing. I wonder if it will really do her any good in the long run? Maybe I should just fit a big shiny set of bull bars to the front of the car and remove the mirrors....

Seriously though, wouldn't there be some merit in a long term government funded TV and press campaign to teach drivers the basic right of way and other rules? Coupled with some education at school, the general standard of driving would surely improve and save a lot of grief and money all round. You'd think both His Majesty and the insurance companies might support this too.

[Crow Boy]

everyone knows that on the road you need to care about what is in front of you,

CB

I guess the motorcycle companies and car companies are putting the rear view and side view mirrors on the vehicles just so they can sell mirrors.

They are there so you can check if it is safe to change lanes. The same applies for turning into traffic. Look before you go. If you can't get out because of too much traffic then inch your way out until someone stops and hope no one hits you in the process. Don't just go out in traffic when you are coming from a side road at 10 km per hour into traffic that is traveling 85 km per hour.

Ok let me make it clear - to everyone who is THAI here what is in front of you is what you need to care about. They all do it and know that every other rider and driver is doing the same thing. They concentrate on what is happening in front of them.

As a farung with more than 40 years of almost daily motorcycle riding experience I don't think I need you to tell me how to ride. I know how to ride in the West but more importantly I know how to ride here. That said I still look and ride very defensively - where Thais come unstuck is when they have foreigners doing "weird western" things on the road.

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

CB

[Rasseru]

It would take a really well trained and experienced driver, more rational than reflexive to decide to hit the bike rather than swerve . . .

Yes. And you have described well the only kind of driver that, in my view, should be allowed behind the wheel of a ten- or twenty-ton vehicle that shares public roads with small pickups, scooters, bicyclists and so on.

. . . I fear there aren't many of those on the roads here.

Perhaps not, but that does not change my view about what is desirable.

In my view, the bike driver sounds as if he should suffer all the blame although there's certainly a lot of room for improved training for bus drivers as well.

From what we have heard, I would say no and yes to your two observations. In my view, it sounds as if the motorcyclist and the bus driver share responsibility for what happened.

[Rasseru]

. . . the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed.

Now you have piqued my curiosity. Before I accept that challenge, were you eating the noodles or talking on the mobile?

[realthaideal]

Crowy, I stand by comments as well about the Buddhist flow of things as I said. I know how most Thais drive and in many senses I'm talking so much hot air. That doesn't, however, change the facts of this nation's horrible records with respect to traffic accidents and deaths. Right of way is real and can be taught and learned. Call the Thai drivers smart to skilled or what have you, but let's not say their way works better or best for them. It works, yes. But it also kills.

I grew up being shown these old Bell Laboratory films in elementary school where they'd show you blood platelets flowing in some vessels. I was a kid in the 70's and they were old news by the time I was watching these little flicks from the late 50's n early 60's. But I was always struck by how when you saw the platelets move from one side vessel into the other, bigger aretery or what-have-you they kind of stopped, and then fell into place like so many coins or poker chips merging with the flow of the rest of red cells in the bigger artery. There are no brakes to stop the blood flow and then let side flow in. If you are a platelet and you wanna come from a side vein and join in the fun, you have to wait until there's room. This is flow as it's occurring in your own body right now. And I extrapolate that and argue that when you are one piddly car or moto and you come up some little soi and want to join the traffic out on the highway or a major street like Nimmanhaemin or even Moonmuang, you ought to frikking wait your turn. There is such a concept as 'your turn' and 'my turn,' and it could save us both alot of pain if we observe it.

The Thai way involves an understood, I will let you in or be ready to accommodate you, but this is not always possible. It is a ruamjai kind of thing based on cooperation. The Western way is more me vs you. Yes, that way has its faults and fits more with us. But again, look at the road statistics. Eventually (my own co-opted definition, thanks Orryrama!) the left hand turn from god will go the way of the dinosaurs and be outlawed here. I'll sit right here and wait, even if it takes 100 yrs!

[Greenside]

Eventually (my own co-opted definition, thanks Orryrama!) the left hand turn from god will go the way of the dinosaurs and be outlawed here. I'll sit right here and wait, even if it takes 100 yrs!

Which junction will you be waiting at? I'll bring you out a snack occasionally...

Happy Christmas!

Edited December 25, 2007 by Greenside

[lannarebirth]

everyone knows that on the road you need to care about what is in front of you,

CB

I guess the motorcycle companies and car companies are putting the rear view and side view mirrors on the vehicles just so they can sell mirrors.

They are there so you can check if it is safe to change lanes. The same applies for turning into traffic. Look before you go. If you can't get out because of too much traffic then inch your way out until someone stops and hope no one hits you in the process. Don't just go out in traffic when you are coming from a side road at 10 km per hour into traffic that is traveling 85 km per hour.

Ok let me make it clear - to everyone who is THAI here what is in front of you is what you need to care about. They all do it and know that every other rider and driver is doing the same thing. They concentrate on what is happening in front of them.

As a farung with more than 40 years of almost daily motorcycle riding experience I don't think I need you to tell me how to ride. I know how to ride in the West but more importantly I know how to ride here. That said I still look and ride very defensively - where Thais come unstuck is when they have foreigners doing "weird western" things on the road.

I believe that on average the Thai motorist and motorcyclist is much better skilled and more aware of what is going on around than than their counterpart in the West. Don't believe me - then at age 12 stick three friends on a motor scooter and set them off in peak hour traffic in a country/city of your choice and see how long they last. I used to be the Secretary of a National Motorcycle Organisation and sent a series of photographs back for publication in the club magazine with the article "so you think you can ride?" the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed. Got a lot of laughs but I certainly lacked the natural Thai grace and skill.

CB

This, most clearly shows the differences in the mindset between the Western and Buddhist driver. The reason they seem so accomplished and why it is difficult for us, is that they have no attachment to outcome. If we were to attempt this maneuver it would be with a focus of doing it without creating a catstrophic outcome. That factor is not one of the considerations of the Buddhist driver. A catastrophe may happen and that would be fated, bad luck or even bad karma from ones prior sins.

Edited December 25, 2007 by lannarebirth

[wjmark]

TWO STORIES AND AN UNBELIEVABLE IMAGE.

When I was learning how to drive, my father told me two stories about swerving.

Story One - he was on a long-haul Greyhound bus (in the 1950's), and was sitting near the driver. An auto in front of the bus blew a tire, and started veering all over the road. The bus driver (according to my dad), just too his foot off the gas and grit his teeth. Didn't swerve. Didn't hammer the brakes.

Fortunately, the car managed to get control and get out of the way. The driver told my dad afterwards that he would have run that car right off the road if he had to - must not, cannot swerve...

Story Two - Mum and Dad were driving across country, and saw a flipped car in a field to the side of the highway. they stopped and found a young mother holding her dead child. She had swerved to avoid a rabbit...

I have never forgotten those stories, and the few times that I have found myself in that kind of emergency driving situation, it comes back to me quickly. Good training would be nice for professional drivers.

===

And while on the subject of driving in Thailand, I am sure that many of us feel we have 'seen it all'. Well, I saw one for the memory books.

I was driving south down Canal rd. between Huay Keow and Suthep rd. In that huge parking lot on the left, I saw it -- a woman pinned to a concrete support by a pick-up truck.

She was sitting on a concrete support for one of the lamp towers, and somehow - in this completely empty (and very large) parking lot, a pick-up truck had backed up (reversed) right up to her and pinned her legs against the concrete lamp support.

I immediately swung around to see if I could help (not being a great first-aider, I would have called a hospital or something), but there were already a couple of people there helping her, and one had already called an ambulance. While the woman was clearly in pain and shock, there was no apparent blood or anything on her legs. This meant that the pick-up had hit her so slowly as to not break skin.

And this was in the mid-afternoon - good light, etc.

Somehow, in an empty large parking lot, this truck had reversed slowly towards her and pinned her legs, without her seeing it coming. What the driver was trying to do is hard to fathom, and to not see a truck coming at your legs slowly is incomprehensible to me.

If it wasn't so sad (my guess is that she had multiple nasty fractures to both legs), it would be comical.

===

So in general - expect the unexpected. If you are driving and you expect people to come flying out of a side soi, and then slam on their brakes, then... no surprise! If you expect that motorbike to take three lanes without shoulder-checking, then... no surprise. If you expect that big SUV to swerve 3 meters into your lane (when only half a meter would have done), then... no surprise.

Driving is different here, but at least many of the problems are predictable (even if the actions seem nuts to us - they are often predictable). Be safe everyone.

[Crow Boy]

. . . the photograph that blew most readers away was the one with three young girls riding a Honda Wave, the two passengers were sitting side saddle, one eating noodles out of a bowl and the other talking on a mobile. Peak hour traffic in Bangkok - Casey Stoner probably couldn't do it - can you? Oh and before you answer - yes I tried it and it is not easy but I managed.

Now you have piqued my curiosity. Before I accept that challenge, were you eating the noodles or talking on the mobile?

neither - I was wearing monk robes at the time and given a lift from the wat to the bus station.

CB

[Crow Boy]

The Thai way involves an understood, I will let you in or be ready to accommodate you, but this is not always possible. It is a ruamjai kind of thing based on cooperation. The Western way is more me vs you. Yes, that way has its faults and fits more with us. But again, look at the road statistics. Eventually (my own co-opted definition, thanks Orryrama!) the left hand turn from god will go the way of the dinosaurs and be outlawed here. I'll sit right here and wait, even if it takes 100 yrs!

In reality that is how I ride - I "ride to survive" but I am also very aware of and EXPECT the cars and motorbikes on the side will come straight out so am prepared to take evasive action. I had a weird and potentially fatal experience yesterday on the San Kamphaeng Highway into town. Car came out on the left as described previously but so did a car cutting across the traffic from a service station. I had been braking back and spotted the pickup coming from the right. If I had merely moved out to the right hand side of the car already in my lane I would have been squeezed between the two vehicles - as it was the gap that resulted was much less than the width of a motorcycle.

I need to make something clear here - I am not saying that the Thai or Western way is better I am saying they are dramatically different. However unlike not learning to speak thai or only eat western food where you can survive on the western alternatives, if you don't adapt to the Thai way of driving/riding you either have to stay off the roads or you will have an accident. On Samuii I saw every week serious accidents because tourists with minimal skills on a bike were hurtling around the island. No helmet, singlet and shorts, flip flops and the result "a Samuii tattoo" when they slide down the road at 80kpm.

The other group of riders that frequently have accidents are the experienced riders who adopt a western style of defensive riding and holding their position on the road which is how they need to ride to survive in the West - here they expect to do the same thing and hold a line down the road and get confused when the oncoming truck doesn't move back into the correct side of the road and runs smack into them. I good friend of mine, very experienced road and track rider from Australia was nearly killed on the first day when he came head to head with two vehicles on the wrong side of the road. He expected them to move!! and ended up running off the side of the road. Fortunately he wasn't badly injured but got a major fright. He couldn't believe how people can ride a bike here.

CB

[realthaideal]

Yeah, I'm with you CB. Same here. Wish I could change things (my thing), but realize you have to get with the Thai program or perish. And even still maybe perish! I came here and only rode tuk tuks n rot daengs for the first 6 mo's so that I could observe how they drive and get a feeling for it. I was especially trying to understand what it must be like to drive on the wrong side of the road. By the time I finally took to my Honda Wave I was ready. I still got caught in a couple near misses as I learned the finer points of the road - the ones you can only learn by getting out there and driving. In the first couple mo's I had maybe 3 incidents, all small. I learned n thought alot about what happened/ almost happened, and now 4 yrs with nothing else. I will add that after the 3rd one (wiping out on a curve by the moat after the flower watering truck had dripped the tiniest trail of h2o onto the dry but oily hot season streets) I went n got an amulet for protection. It's Thailand, figured it couldn't hurt. So either by me or amulet power, I've now managed to get with their flow and stay out of trouble for years! Knock on wood.