Exit Poll Results Show PPP Wins

[thaigene2]

Yep - it's complex. But by the day I'm wondering if this is back-firing on the junta-establishment types. Is this (as someone above suggested) becoming a class war? They (the coup-supporters) better hope not..a reconciliation is needed BY THEM - and soon. It's not up to the majority (or plurality) who voted for the guys they don't like to so all the sucking up. Face and all the other stuff adds to the complexities - yes it does.

[A_Traveller]

Realistically, here is, like much of SE-Asia, caught in the trap of having a political class who all belong to the VVP, {Venal & Vainglorious Party} which perpetuates itself without regard to consistent policies, national interest or meaningful debate. Further, these positions appear hereditary, with all the benefits that brings to the general electorate.

Elite, not in a million years, opportunists, yes.

Regards

[John K]

Yep - it's complex. But by the day I'm wondering if this is back-firing on the junta-establishment types. Is this (as someone above suggested) becoming a class war? They (the coup-supporters) better hope not..a reconciliation is needed BY THEM - and soon. It's not up to the majority (or plurality) who voted for the guys they don't like to so all the sucking up. Face and all the other stuff adds to the complexities - yes it does.

I think if you step back and take a look at the bigger picture you will see these points.

The new constitution is designed to keep politicians in line and make it much more difficult to break the law.

The PPP that has assimilated Thaksin’s arrogance and figured they could play the old game and just buy their way through whatever laws/rulings they break.

The PPP is obviously full of slow learners and anything that happens to them is by their own hand.

I don’t see any evidence that suggest anything other than the PPP going down for law violations and not being able to buy their way out of it. I don’t see a class war, I see slow learners getting burned.

[stumonster]

it has to start from the top down

the ladies whose sons are in the firing line , ordered about by inept sons of spankers need to vote to look after their boys.

it might well be 10 or 20 years but it has to start with an understanding that is closer to their heart than their moblile phones

the Dardanelles was a long time ago for the western world

[seonai]

Big thanks to Plus, Chaownah and Hammered

[sriracha john]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Ricardo's Post #1802 further exemplifies the EC's even-handedness in this election.

Edited January 13, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

The far more interesting by-election is the one at Newin's front yard in Buriram...

PPP pushing for spoiled votes in Buriram

By-election set for showdown between Matchima Thipataya and Puea Pandin

There is a People Power Party (PPP) campaign under way in Buriram to have its supporters vote for the ballot numbers of its three disqualified candidates when it comes to Wednesday's by-election.

If voters do so, their ballot papers will be declared invalid. However, the campaign suggests the action will be a "slap in the face" for the Election Commission, which disqualified the party's winning candidates.

The winning candidates were Prakij Poldej, Pornchai Srisuriyanyothin and Rungroj Thongsri. They each polled between 67,000 and 80,000 votes.

It is expected the next three highest-polling candidates will succeed at the by-election. The by-election will have no effect on the party-list representatives.

Former Member of Parliament Sophon Phetsawang, of Puea Pandin, came fourth in the December vote with 64,000 votes. Somneuk Hengwanich, of Matchima Thipataya, received 60,000 votes, while Noodaeng Wanklangsai, of Puea Pandin, was next with 41,000.

Much depends on who supporters of former Thai Rak Thai MP Newin Chidchob vote for.

Matchima Thipataya and Puea Pandin, both allied to the PPP, should poll well. However, Sophon was a rival of Newin in the past. This could see some support switch to Somneuk.

Nevertheless, veteran Sophon said directing support to a particular candidate was not straight-forward and the protests against the commission disqualifications has "drawn attention".

"I don't think a transfer of votes from the PPP to a particular candidate or candidates is possible." "Nobody can order people who to vote for without money being involved," he said. "But vote-buying this time will be difficult, as the rally in front of the provincial Election Commission has drawn attention from all sides. Police and the commission have visited to inspect irregularities," Sophon said.

Hence the campaign to cast intentionally invalid ballots. It will be a form of revenge against the commission and cost less than running a whole new campaign to get the PPP support to others.

Commission member Prapun Naigowit warned voters not to break the law and added the situation could become worse if the by-election results had to be overturned.

The three disqualified candidates cannot run in the by-election.

[Red-carded] Prakij denied any plan to get PPP support to other candidates, but admitted to the invalid balloting. He said it was up to individuals as to how they expressed their support for the PPP. "Reports of the PPP campaigning for Matchima Thipataya or Puea Pandin are not true. People can make their own decision who to vote for. Some voters still love People Power and are angry about how we were treated. They might find a way to express this. The by-election will tell us what they think," he said.

Abhisit Vejjajiva will campaign in the constituency on Tuesday, even though his party has a slim chance of success. Nevertheless, Democrat candidate Phuchong Laohasiriwong is confident, provided money is kept out of the mix. Phuchong received about 18,000 votes in the election. Abhisit's visit should help, he said. "People thought it was over after December 23. The by-election means candidates must pay more money. It's a different round. What will be interesting is who People Power will support, or if their voters invalidate their ballot papers, which is more likely," he said.

- The Nation

[sriracha john]

'Samak sole PPP choice for premier'

People Power Party secretary-general Surapong Suebwonglee yesterday denied reports that he would replace party leader Samak Sundaravej as PM-in-waiting, dismissing the reports as mere rumours.

He said there had been such talk because Samak is facing investigation over the purchase of fire-fighting equipment. The People Power Party and other parties that agree to form a coalition government would nominate Samak to be PM.

"Samak is the PPP leader so he will get to be PM under the democratic process,'' Surapong said. "PPP does not have any back-up PM".

He said the Chart Thai Party and Puea Pandin Party would officially announce their decision to join the PPP coalition soon. He denied reports that the delay by the two parties to join the PPP had anything to do with their demand for Cabinet seats.

A PPP source said the two parties would announce their decision to join the PPP on January 17. They had delayed announcing their decision due to the passing away of HRH Princess Galyani Vadhana.

The source said Pojaman Shinawatra, who returned to the country last week to face trail over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, had sought approval from a "respectable senior figure" over the formation of a government.

"The senior figure does not object to the PPP's move to form a government, but had voiced concern over the candidate for PM. The PPP's choice is Samak, but there are doubts as to whether he could bring reconciliation to the country,'' he said.

- The Nation

[cclub75]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Really ? The EC is merely applying some stringent (and utterly lunatic) electoral laws... Like if an executive of a party is red carded then his whole party can be banned...

Anyway.

My point was : when it cheats, the PPP wins. And the PPP wins too when... it doesn't cheat !

Back to square one.

People, a majority, want Thaksin. And a powerfull minority rejects him.

What do we do now ?

[sriracha john]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Really ? The EC is merely applying some stringent (and utterly lunatic) electoral laws... Like if an executive of a party is red carded then his whole party can be banned...

Anyway.

My point was : when it cheats, the PPP wins. And the PPP wins too when... it doesn't cheat !

Makes one wonder why they cheat in the first place then and risk jeopardizing everything...

Is it just so ingrained in them that they can't help themselves and not do so?

If an executive of a party cheats and by extension that party is guilty of electoral fraud, why shouldn't that party be dissolved?

Edited January 13, 2008 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

KORAT BY-ELECTION

Man dies in bomb blast outside banned politician's house

A man was killed when a bomb exploded in front of a house rented by banned politician Suporn Atthawong, a former TRT MP (TRT Banned #48), in Soeng Saeng district last night. The house is next door to the district police station. The bomb exploded about 7pm. The dead man, whose body was severely mutilated, had not been identified last night. Pol Lt-Col Pirawat Methacharatpong said the house was rented by Suporn. He refused to give details of the type of bomb or to speculate on the motive for the attack. It was not clear if Suporn was in the house at the time of the explosion. He was not available for comment. On July 2, Suporn was shot and wounded by men in a pick-up while driving hime from a party in Khon Buri district. He linked the attack to a conflict with a local politician. The politician he referred to ran in the Dec 23 poll under the Puea Pandin Party banner. He was said to have won the election, but has yet to be endorsed by the Election Commission.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.net/News/14Jan2008_news02.php

[jumnien]

Politics is a nasty business, especially in Thailand. The last thing the Thai people need or want is someone who isn't rather bold and creative in their solution-seeking and concensus-building or what you personally may call cheating. In the West, a person who has ever hired a nanny and paid her under the table can no longer run for office. As a result, we get the likes of George Bush. I'd much rather have a decent "cheater" and consummate politician. By the way, storming Bangkok with 14 armed tanks to remove elected leaders does seem a bit like cheating and you've been cheering that move for years now.

[sriracha john]

"years"

[jumnien]

Over 1.25 years!

Edited January 14, 2008 by sunrise07

[Ricardo]

Note that the (mainly PPP) yellow-cards simply have to 're-take' the election, and will probably win, but without cheating this time.

Nevertheless I don't see any evidence so far, of anything other than normal 'tidying-up' by the EC, of some of the grosser examples of cheating.

At the risk of belabouring the point, this is the 4th different party, to receive a red-card from the EC, which all adds to the evidence that this is not some simple-minded jerrymandering of the vote, against the PPP, but shows the EC acting in the fair way the PPP acknowledge, by punishing candidates of whatever party who cheated.

Now, this is unfortunate... ! Why ? As previously predicted, the PPP-candidates re-took the elction, and won.

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

The three People Power Party (PPP) candidates whose victories in the December general election in Nakhon Ratchasima were overturned by the Election Commission won again yesterฌday in a by-election.

The by-election was in the province's Constituency 3.

Boonlert Krutkhuntod polled 90,753 votes, Prasert Chanruangthong 88,176 and Linda Cherdchai 84,371 votes.

Turnout was 58 per cent, according to local election officials. In the December 23 election turnout was 73 per cent.

The Nation

The Junta is loosing face again. And again. And again. They must like it, right ?

How are the junta involved, this is the EC, set up under Thaksin's appointed-caretaker PM-ship, going about their normal jobs.

And what about the EC ? Any credibility left ? Look under the carpet...

The EC issue yellow-cards, the by-election is re-run, the original PPP-candidates are elected on a lower (unpaid ? Who knows !) turnout without cheating, how does this not reflect well upon the EC ?

The Comedy shall continue.

Yep - it's complex. But by the day I'm wondering if this is back-firing on the junta-establishment types. Is this (as someone above suggested) becoming a class war? They (the coup-supporters) better hope not..a reconciliation is needed BY THEM - and soon. It's not up to the majority (or plurality) who voted for the guys they don't like to so all the sucking up. Face and all the other stuff adds to the complexities - yes it does.

I think if you step back and take a look at the bigger picture you will see these points.

The new constitution is designed to keep politicians in line and make it much more difficult to break the law.

The PPP that has assimilated Thaksin’s arrogance and figured they could play the old game and just buy their way through whatever laws/rulings they break.

The PPP is obviously full of slow learners and anything that happens to them is by their own hand.

But they can learn, and run an honest race, and win. A victory for democracy ? I believe so.

I don’t see any evidence that suggest anything other than the PPP going down for law violations and not being able to buy their way out of it. I don’t see a class war, I see slow learners getting burned.

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Really ? The EC is merely applying some stringent (and utterly lunatic) electoral laws..It's lunatic, to re-run a by-election, where the EC believe cheating may have influenced the result ? I'd call that democratic !. Like if an executive of a party is red carded then his whole party can be banned...

Anyway.

My point was : when it cheats, the PPP wins. And the PPP wins too when... it doesn't cheat !

Which is a point which I've been trying to make for some time now.

Back to square one.

People, a majority, want Thaksin. And a powerfull minority rejects him. Sorry, a majority voted for parties other-then-PPP, look at the numbers again.

What do we do now ? Wait for the EC to finish tidying-up the results, then see if Samak is able to form a coalition & become PM, then see what he does about those 5 promises which his coalition-partners insist upon.

And many congratulations to Tony C & his wife !

[sriracha john]

Over 1.25 years!

"years"

[Ricardo]

Politics is a nasty business, especially in Thailand. The last thing the Thai people need or want is someone who isn't rather bold and creative in their solution-seeking and concensus-building or what you personally may call cheating.

The last thing the Thai people needed, at this shaky stage in the development of democracy, was an out-and-out dictator, who disregarded & stiffled any dissenting opinion, and governed solely in the interests of his family & friends. A consensus-builder, or coalition-PM, has to be better than that.

In the West, a person who has ever hired a nanny and paid her under the table can no longer run for office. As a result, we get the likes of George Bush. I'd much rather have a decent "cheater" and consummate politician.

At least they would make the trains run on-time !

By the way, storming Bangkok with 14 armed tanks to remove elected leaders does seem a bit like cheating

But it does seem to have led to a fairer less-rigged IMHO election, after 1.25 years, and hopefully a coalition-PM whose partners may be able to insist upon some fairly important conditions, or safeguards.

and you've been cheering that move for years now.

I certainly do cheer the return to elections. Don't you ?

[jumnien]

Yes, anything is better than the junta!

[John K]

Politics is a nasty business, especially in Thailand. The last thing the Thai people need or want is someone who isn't rather bold and creative in their solution-seeking and concensus-building or what you personally may call cheating. In the West, a person who has ever hired a nanny and paid her under the table can no longer run for office. As a result, we get the likes of George Bush. I'd much rather have a decent "cheater" and consummate politician. By the way, storming Bangkok with 14 armed tanks to remove elected leaders does seem a bit like cheating and you've been cheering that move for years now.

Is that the Thaksin hand picked caretaker government or the government that Thaksin dissolved in early 2006 that you are referring to that was looking down the barrels of the tanks in question? Also what does that have to do with this thread, they are completely opposite being military takeover or election by the people. I also know this is not the first time this question has been put to you and I never noticed if you answered it before.

Edited January 14, 2008 by John K

[hammered]

Open question to anyone who has thrown the phrase "elites" around loosely. Define Thai elites for me. Is is anyone from the original 20 or do people just call anyone with more money than they have an elite?

Personally I use elite as it has come to be an accepted term to cover the junta and its powerful supporters. The elite is quite a dodgy area to actally try defining if we want to look at what is really happening and that may be why it has come to be used.

Of course, all the labelling terms are quite inaccurate in their own way. Elite if it is to include the feudal aristocracy fails to grasp that TRT and now PPP flourish on their own alliance with powerful rural feudal groupings. Then there is old power group which is accepted to mean TRT/PPP which is actually a new power group. Then we get into rural masses who support Thaksin meaning rural masses from two regions of the country with the rural masses from another region even more anti than the other two regions are pro. Then we get into the purely middle class backers of Thaksins opponents when there arent anywhere near 14 million (at least) middle class in the country, and we can all name many who love Thaksin etc. More to the point to me is that to analyse what is happening you have to recognize there are three main groups (pro-T electorate, anti-T electorate, and the coupists) and within these there are sub groups. What one actually should accurately call them is up for debate. However they do imho exist. Sometimes we just have to accept the labels others make for us if we want to debate something otherwise we will forever be debating how to label rather than more substantive issues;)

A good question which also higlights how in the emotional amd politcally charged atmosphere of the last few years that the level of actual intellectual and analytical discourse concerning what has happened has been quite poor from all sides even often at pseudo academic level with the odd exception although I do have to say that what can be disussed certasinly doesnt help informed analysis. It seems virtually everyone has been drawn into the having their horse in the race. imho as always

[PeaceBlondie]

3 more posts deleted. Do not question moderation, publicly. If you want to know why a post was deleted, send a PM (that's private) to a moderator.

Do not shoot the messenger. Do not attack other posters, or incite them. If you do, your post will be deleted, all replies to that post will probably be deleted, and you may be punished or banned. Just read the rules and follow them. And we moderators who don't usually work the News Clippings Forum can't spend two hours reading a thread with 1800 posts before we start slashing away.

Thank you. Now, as the song lyric said, "Children, behave!"

[hammered]

Yes, anything is better than the junta!

There is also an arguement that anyone who wants to see a move away from government by the Thaksin elite isnt helped by coups etc which actually stymie the movement of democracy away from top down elitist management. Every time there is a coup what comes after is just a choice of the same old politcal figures although sometimes in different make up and admittedly in the case of TRT/PPP with a lot more handouts than before. It will certainly be very difficult for Thai people to establish the real grass roots and peoples organizations that could truly put their wants and needs forward if the whole democratic cycle is constantly interrupted by coups. In this way. it can be argued Thaksin actaully benefits from coups too!

Maybe in the future it will better to just leave things up to elections. Eventually all democratic governments fall. Even in Japan the LDP lost although it took a bunch of decades. In Thailand it will actually be interesting to see how PPP in the longer term get around the conundrum of better education and more wealth creating increasing difficulties for its rural feudal MPs. I would guess that greater democracy in the long run, if it is allowed, will mean less power for the elite meaning both the old and the newer versions who currently compete for power.

[John K]

I guess in general for me to describe the elite, the elite get passed through the police stops and not have to pay.

[John K]

Yes, anything is better than the junta!

There is also an arguement that anyone who wants to see a move away from government by the Thaksin elite isnt helped by coups etc which actually stymie the movement of democracy away from top down elitist management. Every time there is a coup what comes after is just a choice of the same old politcal figures although sometimes in different make up and admittedly in the case of TRT/PPP with a lot more handouts than before. It will certainly be very difficult for Thai people to establish the real grass roots and peoples organizations that could truly put their wants and needs forward if the whole democratic cycle is constantly interrupted by coups. In this way. it can be argued Thaksin actaully benefits from coups too!

Maybe in the future it will better to just leave things up to elections. Eventually all democratic governments fall. Even in Japan the LDP lost although it took a bunch of decades. In Thailand it will actually be interesting to see how PPP in the longer term get around the conundrum of better education and more wealth creating increasing difficulties for its rural feudal MPs. I would guess that greater democracy in the long run, if it is allowed, will mean less power for the elite meaning both the old and the newer versions who currently compete for power.

So that bring the question up does the new constitution encourage new faces simply by its nature of having teeth that will go after bad politicians? Looking at what is unfolding this week, I would tend to say it does encourage it. Would you agree that some mechanism such as a strong constitution is needed?

[Prakanong]

I guess in general for me to describe the elite, the elite get passed through the police stops and not have to pay.

erm - you can pay to have a motorcade.

I think the definition has to be a little more precise than passing through a police motocade.

The old aristocracy, junior royal family members would be start but that is diluted down now - we have a Na Ayuduya in the office working in a position well below non-elite colleagues and get no special privileges with poice stops as far as I know ;-)

Then there are the Bangkok business families that control most of the wealth in Thailand - mostly sino-thai and immigrants since the 19th Century - you can find a list of most of them in the book Thai Capital since the 97 Financial Crisis" edited by aker et al

Then there are the regional/provincial elite as well.

The top brass in the military would also join this constituency as would many top civil servants, academics etc.

Pretty much the same as the "Elite" in many countries I suppose.

[Plus]

I'd like to remind people of this quote from the previous page:

"The source said Pojaman Shinawatra, who returned to the country last week to face trail over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, had sought approval from a "respectable senior figure" over the formation of a government.

"The senior figure does not object to the PPP's move to form a government, but had voiced concern over the candidate for PM. The PPP's choice is Samak, but there are doubts as to whether he could bring reconciliation to the country,'' he said."

All that talk about "coup by stealth" is nonsense.

Bangkok "elite" believes in democracy, or guided democracy, if you wish. The opposing side doesn't believe in power ofthe people, despite the name.

It's very easy to choose which side to support.

I'd much rather have a decent "cheater" and consummate politician.

Thais are very generous when it comes to cheaters. Certain amount of corruption is tolerated without any problems, it's an acceptable side effect to them.

[hammered]

Yes, anything is better than the junta!

There is also an arguement that anyone who wants to see a move away from government by the Thaksin elite isnt helped by coups etc which actually stymie the movement of democracy away from top down elitist management. Every time there is a coup what comes after is just a choice of the same old politcal figures although sometimes in different make up and admittedly in the case of TRT/PPP with a lot more handouts than before. It will certainly be very difficult for Thai people to establish the real grass roots and peoples organizations that could truly put their wants and needs forward if the whole democratic cycle is constantly interrupted by coups. In this way. it can be argued Thaksin actaully benefits from coups too!

Maybe in the future it will better to just leave things up to elections. Eventually all democratic governments fall. Even in Japan the LDP lost although it took a bunch of decades. In Thailand it will actually be interesting to see how PPP in the longer term get around the conundrum of better education and more wealth creating increasing difficulties for its rural feudal MPs. I would guess that greater democracy in the long run, if it is allowed, will mean less power for the elite meaning both the old and the newer versions who currently compete for power.

So that bring the question up does the new constitution encourage new faces simply by its nature of having teeth that will go after bad politicians? Looking at what is unfolding this week, I would tend to say it does encourage it. Would you agree that some mechanism such as a strong constitution is needed?

Certainly an accepted constitution body of law along with strong, independent and neutral check and balance bodies are all needed. Probably a constitution that can also be ammended but not too easily, and one that will not be ripped up at a later date. These are all things that will hopefully develop as democracy develops. Although the current constitution was introduced under undemocratic rule it is ammendable and could still be used a s building block if politcal parties are in broad consensus. The current constitution is well known for its reduction of ploitcal parties power etc but it also enshrines far more rights for people than any previous constitution. However, having said that however good or bad a constitution is it still comes down to who interprets it and how fairly they do so. Even in the US where the constitution is God there are huge politcal battles to stuff the supreme court with people who will interpet it your way. And the UK which has no formal written constitution but a body of general law and precedent until recently was the country of choice for politcal refugees becasue of the protections. A document is only as good as those chosen to uphold and apply it howeevr, weak or strong the document is. imho

[blaze]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Really ? The EC is merely applying some stringent (and utterly lunatic) electoral laws... Like if an executive of a party is red carded then his whole party can be banned...

Anyway.

My point was : when it cheats, the PPP wins. And the PPP wins too when... it doesn't cheat !

Makes one wonder why they cheat in the first place then and risk jeopardizing everything...

Makes one wonder IF they cheat in the first place. (see the EC's latest stalling on permitting Yongyuth to view the incriminating video.)

[meemiathai]

Now, this is unfortunate... !

Disqualified PPP candidates recapture seats

but certainly not unexpected...

and it increases the credibility of the EC... otherwise the vote buyers would have had an initial and not a

Really ? The EC is merely applying some stringent (and utterly lunatic) electoral laws... Like if an executive of a party is red carded then his whole party can be banned...

Anyway.

My point was : when it cheats, the PPP wins. And the PPP wins too when... it doesn't cheat !

Back to square one.

People, a majority, want Thaksin. And a powerfull minority rejects him.

What do we do now ?

I do part-time refereeing in soccer. Wonder if the EC need me donating some red cards to them? I fear they don't have enough.

But just how, how did the PPP managed to get through. Did they hire David Copperfield?

[meemiathai]

Oh by the way, thaksin having to pay twice is going to make him broke!

Let's see which building they are going to burn this time!

Edited January 14, 2008 by meemiathai