Gold Price Hits New High Today

[sonicdragon]

It is all very well being sophisticated and saying: "After all, gold is just another commodity", but it happens to be the most-trusted commodity representing a store of value.

That only works, of course, as long as that trust lasts.

However, it has lasted for many, many generations.

Gold doesn't degrade, is portable, and (being hard to find and extract) is likely to maintain its scarcity.

Paper currency doesn't degrade (unless left in a pocket that gets into a washing machine!) and is portable. But its scarcity depends on the integrity of politicians (and the the way that the American ones are allowing Bernanke to print dollars to excess reduces one's faith in depending on that!).

So it seems understandable that people get worked up about gold and have more faith in it than they have in fiat money as a convenient way of storing their savings, and that many will continue to do so.

The same can be said of other precious metals such as silver and platinum. Gold doesn't have a monopoly on the aspects you mentioned. If anything, people might be wary of gold due to it's previous use as physical money and as a reserve under the gold standard due to the associated/perceived manipulation by central banks and confiscation by governments.

As I stated above I agree with most of the points of gregb, who seems to be very bullish on gold. FYI, I am overweight in commodities (particularly precious metals in general, and agriculturals) but I just try to be as objective as possible.

edit: typo

Edited January 8, 2008 by sonicdragon

[tropo]

It is all very well being sophisticated and saying: "After all, gold is just another commodity", but it happens to be the most-trusted commodity representing a store of value.

That only works, of course, as long as that trust lasts.

However, it has lasted for many, many generations.

Gold doesn't degrade, is portable, and (being hard to find and extract) is likely to maintain its scarcity.

Paper currency doesn't degrade (unless left in a pocket that gets into a washing machine!) and is portable. But its scarcity depends on the integrity of politicians (and the the way that the American ones are allowing Bernanke to print dollars to excess reduces one's faith in depending on that!).

So it seems understandable that people get worked up about gold and have more faith in it than they have in fiat money as a convenient way of storing their savings, and that many will continue to do so.

The same can be said of other precious metals such as silver and platinum. Gold doesn't have a monopoly on the aspects you mentioned. If anything, people might be wary of gold due to it's previous use as physical money and as a reserve under the gold standard due to the associated/perceived manipulation by central banks and confiscation by governments.

As I stated above I agree with most of the points of gregb, who seems to be very bullish on gold. FYI, I am overweight in commodities (particularly precious metals in general, and agriculturals) but I just try to be as objective as possible.

edit: typo

You can't say the same for silver or platinum.

Plantinum is just too rare and it doesn't have the visual appeal of gold.

I found this interesting (http://www.rji.ie/didyouknow_platinum.html):

Platinum is an extremely rare metal, occurring as only 0.003 ppb in the Earth's crust. Retailers claim supply estimates of this fine metal, being 30 times rarer than gold, that if all the world's platinum reservoirs were poured into one Olympic size swimming pool, it would be scarcely deep enough to cover your ankles; whereas gold would fill more than three such pools

Siver is totally impractical for storage purposes. Having almost half the density of gold and around 1/57th the value (current prices), you'd need to store 1.741kg of silver for every troy ounce of gold, and it takes up twice the space at the same weight (the same space as 3.204kg of gold).

Put another way, with silver you'd have to take up the storage space for 3.204kg ($90,553) of gold to match the value of only 1 troy ounce of gold.

[aaaaaa]

Gold and $ are just the two sides of the same medal: If you understand the market revolution "new world order" after 1975 you will see the double-edge $-gold relationship.

wait a min !

you mean THAT "new world order" as mentioned here:

The Cartel's endgame if dollar crashes

Congress and the people of the US know nothing about this SPP or Amero.

(BTW original source, article "Private Ownership of U.S. ..." http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1199648219.php)

is a website http://www.goldseek.com/ which has stuff directly related to this thread ! )

also here:

The SPP or you can call it the North American Union.

Part 1

Part 2: The Amero

http://www.spp.gov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_and_...f_North_America

Critics argue that the SPP is a "blueprint for building a European Union-style merger

of the three countries of North America", creating a "North American Union"

if it is gonna really happen, then all the talks here about $ Vs Gold would change course, huh?

I think all the learned specialists here have a good chance to share their expertise !

[sonicdragon]

It is all very well being sophisticated and saying: "After all, gold is just another commodity", but it happens to be the most-trusted commodity representing a store of value.

That only works, of course, as long as that trust lasts.

However, it has lasted for many, many generations.

Gold doesn't degrade, is portable, and (being hard to find and extract) is likely to maintain its scarcity.

Paper currency doesn't degrade (unless left in a pocket that gets into a washing machine!) and is portable. But its scarcity depends on the integrity of politicians (and the the way that the American ones are allowing Bernanke to print dollars to excess reduces one's faith in depending on that!).

So it seems understandable that people get worked up about gold and have more faith in it than they have in fiat money as a convenient way of storing their savings, and that many will continue to do so.

The same can be said of other precious metals such as silver and platinum. Gold doesn't have a monopoly on the aspects you mentioned. If anything, people might be wary of gold due to it's previous use as physical money and as a reserve under the gold standard due to the associated/perceived manipulation by central banks and confiscation by governments.

As I stated above I agree with most of the points of gregb, who seems to be very bullish on gold. FYI, I am overweight in commodities (particularly precious metals in general, and agriculturals) but I just try to be as objective as possible.

edit: typo

You can't say the same for silver or platinum.

Plantinum is just too rare and it doesn't have the visual appeal of gold.

I found this interesting (http://www.rji.ie/didyouknow_platinum.html):

Platinum is an extremely rare metal, occurring as only 0.003 ppb in the Earth's crust. Retailers claim supply estimates of this fine metal, being 30 times rarer than gold, that if all the world's platinum reservoirs were poured into one Olympic size swimming pool, it would be scarcely deep enough to cover your ankles; whereas gold would fill more than three such pools

Siver is totally impractical for storage purposes. Having almost half the density of gold and around 1/57th the value (current prices), you'd need to store 1.741kg of silver for every troy ounce of gold, and it takes up twice the space at the same weight (the same space as 3.204kg of gold).

Put another way, with silver you'd have to take up the storage space for 3.204kg ($90,553) of gold to match the value of only 1 troy ounce of gold.

Yes, those factors are reflected in the prices of the respective metals. I am talking here about about investment, and trying to point out that there are other alternative investments of a similar nature to gold. If we were talking about a return to a physical base standard, then your points would have more validity.

[tropo]

Yes, those factors are reflected in the prices of the respective metals. I am talking here about about investment, and trying to point out that there are other alternative investments of a similar nature to gold. If we were talking about a return to a physical base standard, then your points would have more validity.

My points are valid. Gold is unique and no other metals will ever take its place. It's as prized today as it was 5000 years ago. Most people buy gold as an insurance against worthless currencies rather than as an investment. It tends to be a panic buy, and because of that most people aren't buying it at a good price.

[sabaijai]

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it." -- Henry Thoreau

[lannarebirth]

"The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it." -- Henry Thoreau

Hey! I think he could have got that from me. What's really nice is when you find something for free that adds to the quantity/quality of your life.

Hey, speaking of Gold. Looks like it's entering a blowoff phase. Could rocket, but I would guess not more than a month till the fat lady sings.

Edited January 9, 2008 by lannarebirth

[sonicdragon]

Yes, those factors are reflected in the prices of the respective metals. I am talking here about about investment, and trying to point out that there are other alternative investments of a similar nature to gold. If we were talking about a return to a physical base standard, then your points would have more validity.

My points are valid. Gold is unique and no other metals will ever take its place. It's as prized today as it was 5000 years ago. Most people buy gold as an insurance against worthless currencies rather than as an investment. It tends to be a panic buy, and because of that most people aren't buying it at a good price.

Who said anything about replacing gold ? I said there are alternatives. Having studied economic history in depth I am very well aware of the reasons people buy gold, and it's long history. And it's because of my awareness of these things that I don't consider it a kind of holy grail that many people seem to do. It forms a (rather overweight) part of my own investment portfolio along with a large range of commodities and other asset classes.

Edited January 9, 2008 by sonicdragon

[aaaaaa]

some fresh news and analysis :

Recession may already be here

CNNMoney.com

January 10 2008: 4:57 AM

The question for many economists is not if the U.S. economy will fall into a recession.

It's whether it already has.

The Fed to the rescue

CNNMoney.com

January 10 2008: 4:29 PM EST

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said ... that the Fed does not believe the economy will slip into a recession this year. Bernanke said the Fed is not currently forecasting a recession in 2008. Instead, he said the Fed expects growth to slow. He added though, that it is difficult to make a determination about whether an economy is in recession until after the fact.

Gold Futures Ease Off Record High After US Dollar Weakens on Bernanke Comments

The dollar fell following Bernanke's comments, feeding traders' appetite for gold.

The euro rose to $1.4787 in late trading.

Lower interest rates can weaken a currency and prompt investors to shift funds to hard assets. A cheap dollar can make commodities more attractive as an alternative investment, and can also raise demand from foreign buyers as their currencies gain strength.

Gold and Silver Gain Over 1% and 2% as Bernanke Gives In

U.S. gold ends near $900 on rate cut speculation

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:58pm EST

U.S. gold futures set a record high just shy of $900 an ounce on Thursday, as funds poured money after comments

by the Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke prompted speculation of further rate cuts and a dollar slide.

"At this particular point, it's all on anticipation of lower U.S. interest rates," said Frank McGhee,

head precious metals trader of Integrated Brokerage Services in Chicago.

"I think people are realizing now that we are in a recession, or if we are not in one, we are heading into one.

There is very little the Fed can do about it, but there is a lot the Fed wants to do about it," Merk said.

Gary Dugan ..... said that the current gold run, which has seen prices hit a record high near $900 per ounce

already this month, is likely to end as the global economy recovers.

"There is an ultimate cap at $1,000," he said, expecting a price of around $740

at the end of the year and $750 as a year average.

so, Gold gets more interest !

[sonicdragon]

"There is an ultimate cap at $1,000". That's really a bizarre statement from someone who should know what they are talking about. There are no ultimate caps in financial markets.

It seems that the Fed is very likely to cut rates agressively this year and could be quickly followed by other CBs though maybe not to the same extent.

In a world of fiat currency, where the printing presses are running almost constantly, a rising gold price is almost inevitable. Gold and other commodities have a very limited supply. Fiat currencies have an ever increasing supply - so what is the result when you express the value of one in terms of the other ?

[lannarebirth]

"There is an ultimate cap at $1,000". That's really a bizarre statement from someone who should know what they are talking about. There are no ultimate caps in financial markets.

Agreed.

[Samuian]

well taken that "the ultimate cap" reappears in either an downwards "adjustment" or more severe as a "crash"....but still an ounce will ever remain an ounce, what ever the price for it is!

see:

d that 1915 $20 bill would buy you exactly $20 worth of goods today. If the fellow who had that original bill back in 1915 was one of our gold bugs and had demanded his ounce of gold for it then he would have done quite a bit better, about $860 as of the close on Friday...

[Martin]

"As the global economy recovers" equals "When pigs fly" in likelihood.

The global economy 'peaked' and started a gentle downward trend (with little blips from time to time) when the usage of oil and gas had risen to slightly more than match the available supply. So their prices started rising, constraining the global economy.

We in the 'developed' nations have hardly felt it yet, as our leaders have been in a position of strength that allowed them to push the effects away from us and on to the Third World countries.

However, the effects will soon start biting into developed countries, too.

Arguably, the subprime mess in the States is the result of a chain of happenings starting from the fact that oil and gas usage rose so high, and is but an early symptom of the onset of the 'recession disease'. The next symptom may well be a severe reduction in valuation of commercial property.

The prospects are not necessarily gloomy, however.

Today's youngsters may grow up to embrace thrift and frigality (making a virtue of necessity) and strip many of the bads and dis-services out of GDPs, to still have enough goods and services for satisfactory living conditions.

Good luck to them, the First Generation.

As a member of the Fourth Generation (a great grandfather), I won't be lasting long enough to see it.

The members of the middle two generations are going to have to adjust their expectations, though.

And I expect that many of them will wish they had converted their paper-money savings into gold when it was so cheap that they could have got an ounce for a mere 900 of their January 2008 American dollars.

[Naam]

In a world of fiat currency, where the printing presses are running almost constantly, a rising gold price is almost inevitable. Gold and other commodities have a very limited supply. Fiat currencies have an ever increasing supply - so what is the result when you express the value of one in terms of the other ?

words of wisdom Dragon, no doubt about that. but i rather believe in agricultural land that i bought and that would feed me in case all fiat currencies become worthless. and... until this very day my wife uses fiat currencies in Tesco, Friendship, Foodland and Carrefour to pay for the things we need daily. i haven't heard (yet) of any shops which accept gold coins or gold biscuits as payment for whatever goods they sell.

[sonicdragon]

In a world of fiat currency, where the printing presses are running almost constantly, a rising gold price is almost inevitable. Gold and other commodities have a very limited supply. Fiat currencies have an ever increasing supply - so what is the result when you express the value of one in terms of the other ?

words of wisdom Dragon, no doubt about that. but i rather believe in agricultural land that i bought and that would feed me in case all fiat currencies become worthless. and... until this very day my wife uses fiat currencies in Tesco, Friendship, Foodland and Carrefour to pay for the things we need daily. i haven't heard (yet) of any shops which accept gold coins or gold biscuits as payment for whatever goods they sell.

I don't disagree. The only physical gold I have ever bought is jewellry. I only invest in gold through bullion funds and mining/natural resource funds and occasionally ETFs. That said, if anyone has lived through a time of hyper-inflation, had close family who lived through such a time, or simply studied what happens in such times - they would would perhaps have less faith in fiat.

[aaaaaa]

more people turn to Gold as better investment !

Gold tops $900 on possible rate-cut; up $32 in week

1:58 p.m. EST Jan. 11, 2008

Gold futures closed higher for a fourth session on Friday, earlier topping $900 an ounce for the first time ever, on speculation that the Federal Reserve will further cut its key interest rates to stave off economic recession, weakening the value of the dollar and increasing the appeal of gold as an investment haven.

Further cuts could lower the value of the dollar and increase the attraction of dollar-denominated gold as an investment alternative. The dollar index, which tracks the value of the greenback against a basket of other major currencies, earlier dropped to 75.785, the lowest in a week. It was last up slightly at 75.950.

"The main catalyst that is going to drive gold up through January is the eroding U.S. economy," said Adam Hewison, president of INO.com, a technical analysis website. "As investors begin to turn to gold as a solid investment for an unsure economy, which is typical during economic downturns, we would not be surprised to see gold explode above the $900 level."

Gold "is likely to continue going higher overall in the bigger picture perspective as the Federal Reserve is likely to continue slashing interest rates...

"The outlook for the gold market is probably the best we've had for 30 years," said Jurg Kierner, managing director of Swiss Asia Capital, adding a cocktail of geopolitical and financial market instability were set to spur demand for the metal.

"The fact that everybody is asking for cheaper money and more money tells you the banks are burning," he said. "Inflation is out of the bag."

in Thailand people are selling out their gold:

People rush to sell ornament gold following the gold price surge to Bt13,598 today.

(from Nation)

'Manage the baht better'

January 12, 2008

... baht has appreciated more than 1 per cent since early this year...

The dollar fell to a fresh 10-year low of Bt33.14 earlier this week. It has dropped almost every day since the beginning of the year. It opened yesterday at Bt33.14-Bt33.15 and closed at Bt33.15-Bt33.17.

The central bank said in its weekly report that its foreign reserves as of January 4 were US$89.3 billion (Bt2.96 trillion), rising by almost $2 billion from $87.6 billion a week earlier.

interesting astrological forecast !

Likely winners and losers in the Year of the Rat

January 3, 2008

Industries that are forecast to shine brightest in the Year of the Rat, which begins on February 7, include automobiles, petrochemicals, food, textiles and garments and gems and jewellery.

Yet it will be a year when the baht is expected to appreciate further against the US dollar, oil prices will continue to rise, there will be shortages of raw materials and skilled labour and the US sub-prime crisis will continue to threaten economic trouble.

Baht could strengthen to 30-31 to the dollar...

Gems and jewellery

This industry's export income grew 45.4 per cent to US$4.93 billion (Bt166 billion) in the first 11 months of 2007, despite the strong baht and the absence of benefits from the Generalised System of Preferences (GSP).

Gems and jewellery is one of Thailand's top 10 export sectors and employs about a million people. It also expects double-digit growth in 2008, because of penetration into new markets with lower import restrictions and high purchasing power.

"If the penetration is successful and the baht stabilises, the industry could achieve 20-per-cent growth to $5.24 billion next year," said Thai Gems and Jewellery Traders' Association president Vichai Assarasakorn.

New markets include China, India, the Middle East and Russia - all of them offering high demand for luxury goods in line with increasing incomes.

Thai jewelry is one of the world's best.

yeah well - perhaps a bit off subject here (since jewelry is not a commodity as gold or buck), but worth of considering.

[Carrie74]

Gold price hits new high today

The Gold Traders Association of Thailand announces today (January 4th) that one baht of gold ornament, or 15.2 grams of gold, is bided at 13,310.48 baht and offered at 14,000 baht. At the same time, a gold bar is bought at 13,500 baht and sold at 13,600 baht.

Meanwhile, the gold price in the United States has soared to 869.10 US dollars per ounce, increasing by 9.10 US dollars, or 1.1 percent due to the depreciating US currency and inflation rates.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 January 2008

*****

I have heard that for jewelry repair, things that cost normally $50 now cost $130 because of the increases. Is this a good time to invest in gold?

[tropo]

Thai jewelry is one of the world's best.

yeah well - perhaps a bit off subject here (since jewelry is not a commodity as gold or buck), but worth of considering.

Wrong. When they're talking about Thai jewelry, they're talking about gold jewelry which is 96.5% gold (23k). It's tradable gold just as bullion, coins and bars.

Gold trading in Thailand is particularly good because of the very narrow margins and the ease of purchasing it for cash with no disclosure necessary.

[kdvsn]

Thai jewelry is one of the world's best.

yeah well - perhaps a bit off subject here (since jewelry is not a commodity as gold or buck), but worth of considering.

Wrong. When they're talking about Thai jewelry, they're talking about gold jewelry which is 96.5% gold (23k). It's tradable gold just as bullion, coins and bars.

Gold trading in Thailand is particularly good because of the very narrow margins and the ease of purchasing it for cash with no disclosure necessary.

Do you know anyplace in Thailand where I'd be able to sell a couple of 10 ounce Pamp S.A. "Fortuna" gold bars that were originally purchased from Kitco in the US at a price reasonably close to the prices that large a gold dealer in the west would pay?

[torrenova]

Buying gold and selling gold is a rip off in Thailand (unless bullion) as the shops make you pay for 24ct but give you 23ct, pocketing the difference. then you pay for "work" which is fair enough. But when you want to sell, they won't give you the 24ct buy price rather a very discounted price which they then want to adjust downwards for "work". They then put it back in the shop window.

I asked them why on earth they would deduct for work if they were indeed smelting it and the thieving bugger had no answer.

[Naam]

Buying gold and selling gold is a rip off in Thailand (unless bullion)...

that's correct. but it is also quite difficult to find/buy internationally accepted gold bars in Thailand. easiest and safest way to buy physical bullion is when taking a flight and changing aircraft in one of the Emirates' duty free shops. my old lady never misses this opportunity and couldn't care less when i frown

one caveat though: the smaller the biscuit/bar is the higher the bid/ask difference. i have no idea why, as i can't see any reason, but it is a fact.

[LivinLOS]

In a world of fiat currency, where the printing presses are running almost constantly, a rising gold price is almost inevitable. Gold and other commodities have a very limited supply. Fiat currencies have an ever increasing supply - so what is the result when you express the value of one in terms of the other ?

words of wisdom Dragon, no doubt about that. but i rather believe in agricultural land that i bought and that would feed me in case all fiat currencies become worthless. and... until this very day my wife uses fiat currencies in Tesco, Friendship, Foodland and Carrefour to pay for the things we need daily. i haven't heard (yet) of any shops which accept gold coins or gold biscuits as payment for whatever goods they sell.

No but you can have bank accounts in gold grammes or oz that has a current account visa card.. Currency conversion is deducted simply like any other fx rate..

If you go back over my posts of the last few years you will see I predicted gold and silver would rise and bet the farm on them back at 380 and 6ish levels.. Plus loaded up on a mil or two USD worth of the HUI a couple of years back.. Everything I stated back then (all modesty aside) has come to pass (and I have more than doubled my net worth without working in 4 or so years).. The US consumer borrowed far more than he could afford, the central bankers pumped as fast as they could wind the handles on those fiat currency printing presses to stave off needed post dot com recession and the obvious benefit of all that cheap money was a massive real estate bubble.. The proles then used thier homes as an ATM to go further in debt with cheap money and low interest rates swapping real wealth for electric doodads and flat screen TV's produced in the poorer regions of the world.. The derivitives market exploded, and stagflation has become a real issue.. All of this is in my posts.

The issue with gold and fiat currency is that we have only really closed the gold window with the USD back in nixons time.. Thats what 35 or 40 years of a pure fiat currency.. Not that long an 'experiment' really ?? Especially not when every other fiat currency in the history of mankind has failed eventually... then if we think that the central bankers only solution has been to flood cheap money as a stimulus package for the last 15 or so years (ohh Volker where are you when they need you) and your looking at a very nasty situation that the average man on the street hasnt picked up on (yet).. Real inflation is well over 10% (so all those advocating 4% returns are actually losing real purchasing power) and those derivitives markets out there and the mountain of debt has the potential to cause some real bank collapses much worse than the S&L scene or back in the LTCM days.. LTCM nearly took out the financial sector back then but now theres 1000 maybe 10,000 Hedges larger than them that all have cross debt thats almost impossible to value.

I am a current fan of gold holdings, I dont think I am a gold bug, certainly I dont think I will hold them forever but I do see that in the above scenario, with stagflation staring us right in the face, with energy issues, with middle east and radical islam, with a rapidly expanding chinese and indian underclass that have an affinity for gold as savings, that I see it as the best currency I can have given the available options. Time will tell.

[LivinLOS]

In a world of fiat currency, where the printing presses are running almost constantly, a rising gold price is almost inevitable. Gold and other commodities have a very limited supply. Fiat currencies have an ever increasing supply - so what is the result when you express the value of one in terms of the other ?

words of wisdom Dragon, no doubt about that. but i rather believe in agricultural land that i bought and that would feed me in case all fiat currencies become worthless. and... until this very day my wife uses fiat currencies in Tesco, Friendship, Foodland and Carrefour to pay for the things we need daily. i haven't heard (yet) of any shops which accept gold coins or gold biscuits as payment for whatever goods they sell.

I don't disagree. The only physical gold I have ever bought is jewellry. I only invest in gold through bullion funds and mining/natural resource funds and occasionally ETFs. That said, if anyone has lived through a time of hyper-inflation, had close family who lived through such a time, or simply studied what happens in such times - they would would perhaps have less faith in fiat.

Perth certs backed up by the oz government are a very good alternative also.. No storage fees and can be converted to bullion in many mints all over the world or sold back at spot price...

[LivinLOS]

Would also reccomend that EVERYONE read "the creature from Jekyl Island" about the creation of the fed.. I find it continually amusing that a private (secret) banking cartel was formed allegedly to protect and stablise the US dollar.. and under thier watch it has lost 97% of its purchasing power, yet they still have that total control.

“But if you wish to remain slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them create money.”

Joshua Stamp, Director, Bank of England, 1928

[LivinLOS]

Last thing.. Just found comments from Richard Russell about the fed.. Says it so much better than I..

I still can’t get over the whole Federal Reserve racket.

Consider the following - - let’s take a situation where the U.S. government needs money. The U.S. doesn’t just issue United States Notes, which, of course it could. These notes would be dollars backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. No, the U.S. doesn’t issue dollars straight out of the U.S. Treasury.

This is what the U.S. does - - it issues Treasury Bonds. The U.S. then sells these bonds to the Fed. The Fed buys the bonds. Wait, how does the Fed pay for the bonds? The Fed simply creates money “out of thin air” (book-keeping entry) with which it buys the bonds. The money that the Fed creates from nowhere then goes to the U.S. The Fed holds the U.S. bonds, and the unbelievable irony is that the U.S. then pays interest on the very bonds that the U.S. itself issued. (With great profit to the private owners of The Fed - - Ed. Note) The mind boggles.

The damnable result is that the Fed effectively controls the U.S. money supply. The Fed is …not even a branch of the U.S. government. The Fed is not mentioned in the Constitution of the United States. No Constitutional amendment was ever created or voted on to accept the Fed. The Constitutionality of the Federal Reserve has never come before the Supreme Court. The Fed is a private bank that keeps the U.S. forever in debt - - or I should say in increasing debt along with ever rising interest payments.

How did the Fed get away with this outrage? A tiny secretive group of bankers sneaked through a bill in 1913 at a time when many in Congress were absent. Those who were there and voted for the bill didn’t realize (as so often happens) what they were voting for (shades of the shameful 2002 vote to hand over to President Bush the power to decide on war with Iraq).

Why is this allowed to continue ?? Why is the population paying these secret bankers for this non service.. It baffles me..

[sonicdragon]

Last thing.. Just found comments from Richard Russell about the fed.. Says it so much better than I..

I still can't get over the whole Federal Reserve racket.

Consider the following - - let's take a situation where the U.S. government needs money. The U.S. doesn't just issue United States Notes, which, of course it could. These notes would be dollars backed by the full faith and credit of the United States. No, the U.S. doesn't issue dollars straight out of the U.S. Treasury.

This is what the U.S. does - - it issues Treasury Bonds. The U.S. then sells these bonds to the Fed. The Fed buys the bonds. Wait, how does the Fed pay for the bonds? The Fed simply creates money "out of thin air" (book-keeping entry) with which it buys the bonds. The money that the Fed creates from nowhere then goes to the U.S. The Fed holds the U.S. bonds, and the unbelievable irony is that the U.S. then pays interest on the very bonds that the U.S. itself issued. (With great profit to the private owners of The Fed - - Ed. Note) The mind boggles.

The damnable result is that the Fed effectively controls the U.S. money supply. The Fed is …not even a branch of the U.S. government. The Fed is not mentioned in the Constitution of the United States. No Constitutional amendment was ever created or voted on to accept the Fed. The Constitutionality of the Federal Reserve has never come before the Supreme Court. The Fed is a private bank that keeps the U.S. forever in debt - - or I should say in increasing debt along with ever rising interest payments.

How did the Fed get away with this outrage? A tiny secretive group of bankers sneaked through a bill in 1913 at a time when many in Congress were absent. Those who were there and voted for the bill didn't realize (as so often happens) what they were voting for (shades of the shameful 2002 vote to hand over to President Bush the power to decide on war with Iraq).

Why is this allowed to continue ?? Why is the population paying these secret bankers for this non service.. It baffles me..

To get a better understanding of this, it is necessary to realise how close the financiers of the time and the government became after a series of economic and financial crises in the latter half of the nineteenth century and the early 20th century. There is no way I can give a detailed account of these events here (books have been written on these topics) - but to summarise as much as possible: several booms, busts and stock market crashes occured. The banking industry (and in particular JP Morgan) "rode to the rescue" of the US economy on several occasions - most famously at the height of the Panic of 1907. The Fed was created mainly in response to these events. Apparently it seemed natural at the time for those with money and power in government to "reward" the financiers by allowing their privately owned institution to have control over the issuance of the currency. Another view is that giving ownership of the Fed to the financiers was compensation for taking away a very big source of income from them: arguably, many of the aforementioned events were caused directly or indirectly by the actions of the banking industry (eg. a fight for control of major railroad assets that JPM was financing, which led to the crash of 1901), and in organising subsequent "rescues" they enriched themselves even further (eg. the resolution of the gold crisis of 1895)

Edited January 12, 2008 by sonicdragon

[Freddie_fly]

i LOVE THIS THREAD.

Lots of people who have made masses of money.

My only question is , if you have all made so much money trading in gold,

What are you doing online in a (relatively) small forum telling everyone how to trade.

If I had made huge amounts on gold, I wouldnt tell anyone here, I would be sitting back in my 75 Mill condo

having my cappucino brought to me by one of my 12 beautiful thai maids !!!!!

Freddie

[kdvsn]

i LOVE THIS THREAD.

Lots of people who have made masses of money.

My only question is , if you have all made so much money trading in gold,

What are you doing online in a (relatively) small forum telling everyone how to trade.

If I had made huge amounts on gold, I wouldnt tell anyone here, I would be sitting back in my 75 Mill condo

having my cappucino brought to me by one of my 12 beautiful thai maids !!!!!

Freddie

You must be new here. Thaivisa might be small forum but attacts the most successful investors in the world. Scarely anyone here has ever lost money on a trade nor failed to optimally time a market trend.

[VegasVic]

i LOVE THIS THREAD.

Lots of people who have made masses of money.

My only question is , if you have all made so much money trading in gold,

What are you doing online in a (relatively) small forum telling everyone how to trade.

If I had made huge amounts on gold, I wouldnt tell anyone here, I would be sitting back in my 75 Mill condo

having my cappucino brought to me by one of my 12 beautiful thai maids !!!!!

Freddie

You must be new here. Thaivisa might be small forum but attacts the most successful investors in the world. Scarely anyone here has ever lost money on a trade nor failed to optimally time a market trend.

Thats right, thaivisa members always buy at the bottom and sell at the top and when a company is in trouble or closing in on bankruptcy, a post magically appears how a particular thaivisa member or members shorted said stock at the exact 52 week high OK back to reality now As far as gold goes it is heading for a blow off top. I have never seen so many regular investors (non gold bugs) buying gold, even hedge funds newly set up for gold, all the while the underlying fundementals for gold haven't changed or have slightly worsened, gold just might be the perfect contrarian play. Industrial demand for the precious metal has actually declined slightly and the extraction price (around $250/ounce, thats without figuring the ancilary benefit of the copper that is extracted at the same time) has remained fairly constant for many years now. So why is gold at $900/ounce? Basically it is the same reason that Enron once sold for $100/sh or that Mickey Mantle baseball cards once sold for $1000/ea, it is a type of mass hysteria better known as the greater fool theory! When you have slowing economies like we currently have in Europe and America, discresionary income is rarely used to buy gold jewelry, and when the Chinese equity markets make their major correction (or crash) this year and those paper profits dissapear all of a sudden for millions of investors, then a good deal of that gold that has been horded by by the chinese and other asians will start hitting the market. It appears that many thais have already started to sell their horde, as one of the previous posts here indicate (a good move on their part) , this is just the begining as gold in other SE asian countries will find their way to market and then later this year in China. Some here will remember that in august of 2007 I was negative on an investment in gold for the long term (as I am currently) and I freely admit that a gold trade between then and now has been a great trade (if indeed you sold and are not still holding), but I did say back then if you must get some exposure to gold then buy Yamana Gold (AUY), then at about $9.50/sh and currently at around $16/sh, this stock has far outpreformed the metal itself. If anyone did buy Yamana back then then I would certainly advise to take a nice chunk off the table now (at least get your original investment back and ride the free shares for a little longer). I would liken my call in august to those few that had warned people about Enron at $70/sh, it didn't look like a good call when Enron proceeded to $100, but it sure looked good when Enron went sub dollar! No I am not saying that gold is going to zero, it will always have some commercial-industrial use and some intrinsic aesthetic value, but worldwide currencies are not going to go back to a gold backing and sometime this year the fundementals will prevail over the hysteria, just as it always does. Good luck to all of you out there, I sincerely hope that you all sell at the top

[kdvsn]

i LOVE THIS THREAD.

Lots of people who have made masses of money.

My only question is , if you have all made so much money trading in gold,

What are you doing online in a (relatively) small forum telling everyone how to trade.

If I had made huge amounts on gold, I wouldnt tell anyone here, I would be sitting back in my 75 Mill condo

having my cappucino brought to me by one of my 12 beautiful thai maids !!!!!

Freddie

You must be new here. Thaivisa might be small forum but attacts the most successful investors in the world. Scarely anyone here has ever lost money on a trade nor failed to optimally time a market trend.

Thats right, thaivisa members always buy at the bottom and sell at the top and when a company is in trouble or closing in on bankruptcy, a post magically appears how a particular thaivisa member or members shorted said stock at the exact 52 week high OK back to reality now As far as gold goes it is heading for a blow off top. I have never seen so many regular investors (non gold bugs) buying gold, even hedge funds newly set up for gold, all the while the underlying fundementals for gold haven't changed or have slightly worsened, gold just might be the perfect contrarian play. Industrial demand for the precious metal has actually declined slightly and the extraction price (around $250/ounce, thats without figuring the ancilary benefit of the copper that is extracted at the same time) has remained fairly constant for many years now. So why is gold at $900/ounce? Basically it is the same reason that Enron once sold for $100/sh or that Mickey Mantle baseball cards once sold for $1000/ea, it is a type of mass hysteria better known as the greater fool theory! When you have slowing economies like we currently have in Europe and America, discresionary income is rarely used to buy gold jewelry, and when the Chinese equity markets make their major correction (or crash) this year and those paper profits dissapear all of a sudden for millions of investors, then a good deal of that gold that has been horded by by the chinese and other asians will start hitting the market. It appears that many thais have already started to sell their horde, as one of the previous posts here indicate (a good move on their part) , this is just the begining as gold in other SE asian countries will find their way to market and then later this year in China. Some here will remember that in august of 2007 I was negative on an investment in gold for the long term (as I am currently) and I freely admit that a gold trade between then and now has been a great trade (if indeed you sold and are not still holding), but I did say back then if you must get some exposure to gold then buy Yamana Gold (AUY), then at about $9.50/sh and currently at around $16/sh, this stock has far outpreformed the metal itself. If anyone did buy Yamana back then then I would certainly advise to take a nice chunk off the table now (at least get your original investment back and ride the free shares for a little longer). I would liken my call in august to those few that had warned people about Enron at $70/sh, it didn't look like a good call when Enron proceeded to $100, but it sure looked good when Enron went sub dollar! No I am not saying that gold is going to zero, it will always have some commercial-industrial use and some intrinsic aesthetic value, but worldwide currencies are not going to go back to a gold backing and sometime this year the fundementals will prevail over the hysteria, just as it always does. Good luck to all of you out there, I sincerely hope that you all sell at the top

Vic,

Yamana was one of Cramer's picks. Almost every night on "Mad Money" he emphasized that you should buy it unless you wanted to spend your golden years "drinking cheap Scotch on a cold linoleum floor". I'm going to assume that one can substitute Sang Som for the Scotch.