Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[kat]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

I think there is a lot to still gather on this story, but your input is no greater than any other, including third-parties and your acquaintances with "principal characters." Everyone has their self-interested position and reason for pitching the stories that they do, including "acquaintances" and "witnesses" who live in the town, know the cop, and have a reputation to protect.

And I love the quote: ".... no history of violence in Pai ...." as opposed to the victims. He certainly has added to that history now, for sure.

If she did hit a cop weeks ago, and this was his way of "hitting back," it is still entirely unprofessional for him to escalate a situation in this manner.

*Also, we have no idea what "struck" means from our point of view and the way it actually happened.

Edited January 8, 2008 by kat

[DamianMavis]

Unprofessional and completely criminal!

Oh and the dead Man had a history of violence? Do tell... thought he was from out of town?

Damian

Edited January 8, 2008 by DamianMavis

[sabaijai]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

I think there is a lot to still gather on this story, but your input is no greater than any other, including third-parties and your acquaintances with "principal characters." Everyone has their self-interested position and reason for pitching the stories that they do, including "acquaintances" and "witnesses" who live in the town, know the cop, and have a reputation to protect.

And I love the quote: ".... no history of violence in Pai ...." as opposed to the victims. He certainly has added to that history now, for sure.

If she did hit a cop weeks ago, and this was his way of "hitting back," it is still entirely unprofessional for him to escalate a situation in this manner.

Of course it's unprofessional, and criminal, no one's saying otherwise. I'm acquainted with the eyewitnesses, and have met both victims, but have no personal interest in the case other than wanting to see justice done. If you know more about the case than the reporters, the witnesses or the victims, please let us know.

*Also, we have no idea what "struck" means from our point of view and the way it actually happened.

Witnesses say that Reisig pushed the cop to the ground when he tried to calm the fight the night of the shooting, and that on a previous occasion she had shoved and struck (punched, I was told) a policeman at Be-Bop Bar.

No one's trying to excuse the cop for the shooting, only to fully understand the situation and gather the facts. Third-party testimony will carry the most weight in court, should it come to that -- and one hopes it will. Or would you prefer to just throw a rope over a tree limb and have a lynching?

[aaaaaa]

Unprofessional and completely criminal!

Oh and the dead Man had a history of violence? Do tell... thought he was from out of town?

Damian

Why ! don't you know he was a "bodybuilder" and vicious bully ?

[sabaijai]

Unprofessional and completely criminal!

Oh and the dead Man had a history of violence?

The reported 'furious' fighting on the street in front of Daeng's, which prompted the owner to ask for assistance.

[kat]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

I think there is a lot to still gather on this story, but your input is no greater than any other, including third-parties and your acquaintances with "principal characters." Everyone has their self-interested position and reason for pitching the stories that they do, including "acquaintances" and "witnesses" who live in the town, know the cop, and have a reputation to protect.

And I love the quote: ".... no history of violence in Pai ...." as opposed to the victims. He certainly has added to that history now, for sure.

If she did hit a cop weeks ago, and this was his way of "hitting back," it is still entirely unprofessional for him to escalate a situation in this manner.

Of course it's unprofessional, no one's saying otherwise. I'm acquainted with both victims and with the eyewitnesses, but have no personal interest in the case other than wanting to see justice done. If you know more about the case than the reporters, the witnesses or the victims, please let us know.

I'm not concerned with "knowing more" but knowing the truth. That will take a bit more effort than assuming everyone on this board with a story or "acquaintances" is without bias or personal interests in what they consider reputable.

*Also, we have no idea what "struck" means from our point of view and the way it actually happened.

Witnesses say that Reisig pushed the cop to the ground when he tried to calm the fight the night of the shooting, and that on a previous occasion she had shoved and struck (punched, I was told) a policeman at Be-Bop Bar.

No one's trying to excuse the cop for the shooting, only to fully understand the situation and gather the facts. Third-party testimony will carry the most weight in court, should it come to that -- and one hopes it will. Or would you prefer to just throw a rope over a tree limb and have a lynching?

It looks like that already occurred, so you're a tad late. *This story already has one innocent dead person, and it ain't the cop

*added

Edited January 8, 2008 by kat

[DamianMavis]

Unprofessional and completely criminal!

Oh and the dead Man had a history of violence?

The reported 'furious' fighting on the street in front of Daeng's, which prompted the owner to ask for assistance.

Basically you are buying the story the police came up with and have most likely told the witnesses to support at risk of their lives. You said you know the victims so figured you meant you know them and know that they are bad violent people that obviously antagonised the cop, but this is not true is it? You are just repeating the rumours and stories of the police. I just dont understand how you or anyone will be able to take the witnesses accounts seriously HAVING LET THE COP GO TO INTIMIDATE THEM. It's just common sense oh my god! I wish this where not the case but realistically... how can we not assume the police have not threatened the witnesses that have grown up in a culture that fears its police? They know from history and experience (AND FIRST HAND ACCOUNT JUST RECENTLY!) that the cops can and will kill. They know that cops have murdered and gotten off completely free, they know how it works in this country..... to discount the possibility that the witnesses have been threatened is ludicrous, in THIS country.

Having said that, anything is possible, but this must be VERY clear. Police have a reputation for killing thousands (drug killings on top of regular assasinations and attacks by police) and to think that any poor Thai witness will EVER speak out against them is foolish. They are insignnificant and would be snuffed out in the blink of an eye, there is no "protective custody" here!

Damian

[kat]

Sometimes it's not even fear, but instinct. Many if not most Thais will naturally close ranks against anyone or anything that threatens their reputation or view of themselves. Many foreigners adopt this instinct as well. And accordingly, all kinds of profiles will surface that reflect the sense of right and wrong of the people judging: was she pregnant, was she rude, did she hit a cop weeks ago, etc.

There was also an early reports in the Thai press that she was shot in the hip, that they WEREN'T fighting, and that she was pregnant. Also, the cop was drinking in said restaurant, right, which means he is a patron and a village cop. There are all sorts of things underneath the surface which most of us don't see, and that is especially true in Thailand.

[WilliamCave]

Already released on bail, how nauseating. There was a Dutch national viciously murdered here

in Chonburi and the case just recently came to trial and the killer was sentenced to death. But,

he had been granted bail and was nowhere to be found. Bail is kind of an overstatement, he was

actually allowed to pledge some title deeds to property, assessed value inflated I'm sure.

The Nation printing the report certainly lends some credibility to the whole issue. That it actually

happened, not that the given elements of the account are true in any way. I'm relieved there are

others who already recognize the signs of a cover-up and the same old worn-out storylines which

are more fiction than truth. I hope the Canadian's embassy demands more. This is really going to

be disgraceful, for the country and all the decent Thais they are dishonoring with these lies.

The Canadian thai embassy hahaha,,,do something they are spineless and live in own world and wont do much to help or dig for the truth

[Thai at Heart]

I don't think any of the involved parties are telling the whole truth. While the cop's story is obviously ridiculous, the girl's story that they were quietly walking and minding their own business only to have a Thai man jump out of the bushes and start punching her face for no reason doesn't seem likely either.

You doubt the womans story? And her Thai boyfriends? I dont see why. There were no bushes by the way, more likely he was in an area with other people (street food vendors and alcohol sellers) saw the couple and was angered for what ever got his drunken psycho self going and just acted on his anger, like so many people do in Thailand. Why is it hard to believe he did this with no ACTUAL provocation? It happens all the time. He probably went up to them to physically hurt her or them based on his personal reason for anger, but once pushed (knocked down?) and embarassed in front of witnesses lost face and had to kill people for it...

happens ALL THE TIME.

Damian

happens ALL THE TIME?

i doubt the womans story as well / why- see my post above.

i would call it a few singulary cases. but maybe i live in the 'wrong' neighborhood to know the really truth of thailand. or read an TV forum not often enough.

Loss of face is a concept that baffles me, but results in reactions that can be absoutley astounding.

[JacknDanny]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

[Prakanong]

It's telling that Reisig said she had her face painted up. This is a bit like taking your shirt off in a public place here in Thailand or acting in what would otherwise be perceived - by Thais - as acting and/or behaving in an abnormal or un-natural manner i.e. not seen to be complying by the unwritten rules that govern and maintain Thai society.

You will draw attention to yourself.

This is a jungle - and if you are different or are perceived as being different then you've got to be dealt with - you are a natural target - everyone will understand this!

This is a conformist and feudal society. There are few outward expressions of 'individual' behaviour or character. Emotions - feelings - actions are deliberately hidden and subdued.

Undoubtedly, these poor unfortunate westerners may have been unwittingly and inadvertently drawing attention to themselves - and from the wrong murderous quarters!

I hope the Thai cop hangs from the balls for this dreadful crime.

That's an interesting point, I'm not a "face painter" myself but I'd be interested to know the Thai perspective on this. Is it offensive here and if so, to what degree? There's an episode of Seinfeld that gives quite an accurate and humorous portrayal of face-painting in the West and maybe there is more significance to this in Thailand than many of us are aware of... Anyone know?

Secondly, I'd love to know the previous behaviour of the cop that led to him being arrested and released on bail prior to last nights tragic incident. Lets's hope this Drummond guy can continue to report as openly as possible, he's got bigger balls than me that's for sure and quite frankly (Chloe) I couldn't care which bars he drinks in when he's finished work.

Yes - I have a lot of respect for this guy. I remember his very important and honest reporting of the Katherine Horton case - amongst others.

He is very good an not easily scared off on cases like this but the sensationalist angle attributed to him might be for work he does on the seedier side shall we say where is byline does not appear and its said he uses another "Nom de guerre".

I did hear one story from a BKK Post journo regarding the Chief of London fire brigade and a story in the News of the Screws - it would need corroborating though.

[femi fan]

I think a pertinent question is why this could happen in pai. It badly reflects how the place has changed in recent years.

I had only recently read in the citylife magazine from chiang mai a letter complaining about the attitude of policemen in this town. It seems that this negative attitude is ingrained in the men in uniform operating in pai, and obviously if this copper had been drinking then his attitude towards foreigners will have hardened even further.

Reading the report by drummond, it seems clear as day to me that the cause of this unwelcome death is a copper with negative attitudes towards certain people, and who having been drinking lost his ability to reason properly and got his gun out.

It is a sad day that such a story comes out of pai. I don't mean to lessen the loss of this young man's life, but in the general picture we see a town that was totally peaceful that shut early each night save for one or two bars and whose visitors liked a peaceful smoke in a beautiful valley, but then according to the political whims of the day, ganja was out, and alcohol and bars followed. Just like in any big town. Pai was a place to get away from all of that.

The lure of money to people from big towns and cities does completely fuc_k up nice tranquil places. Thailand is littered with such places, as no doubt are many other developing world countries with natural beauty.

[Gravelrash]

...

And me. I am not in any way disputing whether or not she was a nice person, maybe complained about an overcharge on her bill one too many times, maybe was a bit too abrasive here and there, or stared down a couple of odious King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats, it is important to understand the cop's motive, but none of it will excuse how Leo del Pinto was murdered in cold blood by a cop who is now out on bail, and will most likely get away with it.

From the many insightful and illuminating posts I've read I hadn't actually considered linking "King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats" into this quagmire. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, definitely casts a whole new light on things.

Often people relating past events will leave out some of the small details that compromise how they would like to remember things, seems like the case here. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

[Prakanong]

...

And me. I am not in any way disputing whether or not she was a nice person, maybe complained about an overcharge on her bill one too many times, maybe was a bit too abrasive here and there, or stared down a couple of odious King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats, it is important to understand the cop's motive, but none of it will excuse how Leo del Pinto was murdered in cold blood by a cop who is now out on bail, and will most likely get away with it.

From the many insightful and illuminating posts I've read I hadn't actually considered linking "King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats" into this quagmire. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, definitely casts a whole new light on things.

Often people relating past events will leave out some of the small details that compromise how they would like to remember things, seems like the case here. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

And I am sure Pai is just crawling with white King of the Jungle Sexpats to stare down - it must be the alpha male capital of Asia

As you say though the truth is probably somewhere between. She might have had a few drunken or drugged up scuffles but the reaction of the plod was just too much for a loss of face.

I suppose the smaller than man with his shitty wage and lowly place in society any loss of face is magnified as he has minimum anyway.

[mikethevigoman]

I read earlier on in the first articles that her face was painted red. I have never heard of face painting as being offensive to Thai culture, but maybe it's because it's never come up.

Don't know, but there are pieces still missing here on motive.

Face painting is quite common in traditional Thai theatre - Likay for example, or the "tourism spectacular" ramiyana extravaganzas. Perhaps there's some unknown cultural taboo against painting the face outside of the theatre? That said, I do know children in Chiangers have often arrived home from kindergarden and junior schools with painted faces, and I think (but am not sure if I'm remembering correctly) I have seen face painting stalls at local fairs and festivals (might be mixing it up with something from western TV though).

Perhaps some Thai readers would like to comment on this angle that's been little discussed in this thread?

Maybe it was the type of perfume she had on .. where does it say anywhere that the face painting was an issue ? ,,.this will be either an ongoing episode from her insult/attack on a cop previously or as stated a request was made to seperate them from fighting and all hel_l broke loose when they both turned on the cop, maybe he was scared for his life and rather than let his gun be taken off him panicked,can we all say with definition what WE would have done ? ,.i certainly cant,. if im thinking shit if this guy gets my gun im dead i think il take drastic measures to prevent it,.i am not condoning anything just offering a maybe scenario,.for anyone to walk up to a complete stranger ,with 2 guys and punch her in the face ? i think there is more chance of winning the lottery !,. maybe the punch in the face was there before Edited January 9, 2008 by mikethevigoman

[Prakanong]

I read earlier on in the first articles that her face was painted red. I have never heard of face painting as being offensive to Thai culture, but maybe it's because it's never come up.

Don't know, but there are pieces still missing here on motive.

Face painting is quite common in traditional Thai theatre - Likay for example, or the "tourism spectacular" ramiyana extravaganzas. Perhaps there's some unknown cultural taboo against painting the face outside of the theatre? That said, I do know children in Chiangers have often arrived home from kindergarden and junior schools with painted faces, and I think (but am not sure if I'm remembering correctly) I have seen face painting stalls at local fairs and festivals (might be mixing it up with something from western TV though).

Perhaps some Thai readers would like to comment on this angle that's been little discussed in this thread?

Maybe it was the type of perfume she had on .. where does it say anywhere that the face painting was an issue ? ,,.this will be either an ongoing episode from her insult/attack on a cop previously or as stated a request was made to seperate them from fighting and all hel_l broke loose when they both turned on the cop, maybe he was scared for his life and rather than let his gun be taken off him panicked,can we all say with definition what WE would have done ? ,.

I can run with you up to the point he was scared for his life - well maybe he was when they were wrestling for the gun if that bit is true.

But

Did he pull his gun out from his waistband or wherever and why - if he never drew his weapon they would not be wrestling over it

It has also been said he went back to his bike to get the gun after being pushed over.

Purely conjecture on my part but after being pushed over it was such a loss of face he drew his gun, the Canadian guy grabbed it but the Thai cop got control of the gun, shot him in the mouth, delivered the coup de grace in the heart and tried the same with the girl.

If the girl was dead this would have all been covered up and gone pretty quiet - he must be kicking himself he could not hit her hear from 1 inch away but I suppose Thai primary education is not so hot on anatomy.

Fact is face is a big soci-cultural factor in Asia - many Thai men have so little of it the loss of any often results in massive over-reactions and responses. Their accounts in the "Face Bank" of life are often incredibly low and being pushed over by a hippy farang couple pushed this cop into overdraft.

If you did this in many other Asian countries you migh get jail and a beating - in Thailand the reaction and response in unpredictable.

[mikethevigoman]

I read earlier on in the first articles that her face was painted red. I have never heard of face painting as being offensive to Thai culture, but maybe it's because it's never come up.

Don't know, but there are pieces still missing here on motive.

Face painting is quite common in traditional Thai theatre - Likay for example, or the "tourism spectacular" ramiyana extravaganzas. Perhaps there's some unknown cultural taboo against painting the face outside of the theatre? That said, I do know children in Chiangers have often arrived home from kindergarden and junior schools with painted faces, and I think (but am not sure if I'm remembering correctly) I have seen face painting stalls at local fairs and festivals (might be mixing it up with something from western TV though).

Perhaps some Thai readers would like to comment on this angle that's been little discussed in this thread?

Maybe it was the type of perfume she had on .. where does it say anywhere that the face painting was an issue ? ,,.this will be either an ongoing episode from her insult/attack on a cop previously or as stated a request was made to seperate them from fighting and all hel_l broke loose when they both turned on the cop, maybe he was scared for his life and rather than let his gun be taken off him panicked,can we all say with definition what WE would have done ? ,.

I can run with you up to the point he was scared for his life - well maybe he was when they were wrestling for the gun if that bit is true.

But

Did he pull his gun out from his waistband or wherever and why - if he never drew his weapon they would not be wrestling over it

It has also been said he went back to his bike to get the gun after being pushed over.

Purely conjecture on my part but after being pushed over it was such a loss of face he drew his gun, the Canadian guy grabbed it but the Thai cop got control of the gun, shot him in the mouth, delivered the coup de grace in the heart and tried the same with the girl.

If the girl was dead this would have all been covered up and gone pretty quiet - he must be kicking himself he could not hit her hear from 1 inch away but I suppose Thai primary education is not so hot on anatomy.

Fact is face is a big soci-cultural factor in Asia - many Thai men have so little of it the loss of any often results in massive over-reactions and responses. Their accounts in the "Face Bank" of life are often incredibly low and being pushed over by a hippy farang couple pushed this cop into overdraft.

If you did this in many other Asian countries you migh get jail and a beating - in Thailand the reaction and response in unpredictable.

one thing for sure it was a very ugly scene, one that makes me feel sick,there are 3 sides to every story, mine ,yours and the truth,. will we ever know ,. Edited January 9, 2008 by mikethevigoman

[grantbkk]

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

JacknDanny makes a pretty good point here. Posters that attack Thai society or the Thai people to incite others with a more moderate view seems divisive. Why would anyone with such a contemptuous opinion of the whole country by here at all. While we all (or most of us) want justice the whole story is not available here. The CSI Syndrome is alive and well on Thai Visa as usual and many of the "experts" here think supposition and rumor justify whacking the suspect to save money and to serve some brand of justice. This is a genuine tragedy that will be repeated until changes are made in the basic threads of society here and the police actually receive some relevant training. To all the amateur detectives out there: Preface you opinions with you CV and we will be able to tell the arm chair detectives that have received their training from television shows from those who actually have been involved in major criminal investigations.

Edited January 9, 2008 by grantbkk

[APMann]

Can someone tell me if Thai channels have covered this story yet? My girlfriend says not, and there has been nothing that I have seen in the English speaking press, even though this execution is an international story and it happened 4 days ago. Is this military censorship in action or plain and stupid - sorry, simple, Thai (shame)face saving?

[pippomusic]

Yeah sure,

but please do not say things like "THIS IS THAILAND".

I come from Italy, and in my country Plocie KILL people quite often, and then construct any kind of obviously made-up defense. And judges, legal dooctors, all of them most of the times collude with the police.

In UK, if I don't go wrong, a brazilian guy has been shot in the head in the tube not long ago. And the responsibles? Have they been punished?

And in USA? Awwwwww here I could write a novel about police and unjust violence!

Police is reflection of power, anywhere. And wherever men are legally endorsed to carry and USE guns, such kind of accidents happen. It is not Thailand. The guy is a farang, so maybe something will move. At least.

Carlo Giuliani, shot in the face by a police man in the G8 riots in north italy. The policeman has been released BECAUSE HE SHOT IN THE AIR, AND HIS BULLET BOUNCED ON A FLYING STONE!!! Not even in Thailand they would have such fantasy!

love

Pippo

Yep that's exactly right.

Why is it that once one idiot goes off the rails and commits murder under the cloak of authority does everyone brandish all Thais with the same brush.

Hey let's have a close look in our own glass houses before we start casting stones?!

Does the US invasion of Iraq not equate starkly by comparison when it is now almost universally agreed that they had no justification to do so? I put that in the murder basket! The poor Brazilian kid in the London tube was murdered etc and the list is quite long if you care too look.

All governments and institutions in authority and power cover up or "spin" the real story and facts to salvage the reputation of their own institutions regardless of what country you are in. This is not something found just in Thailand, it is perhaps that they are not quite as adroit at it as others. Gee the US government still have a large percentage of people believing that a Boeing 707 with a 44ft wingspan and 2 HUGE 9ft Pratt & Whitney engines made from Titanium could fit into the initial 16 ft hole in the Pentagon on the morning of 9/11! ..Ha!

Sadly though the Canadian guy is dead and there is nothing that will cure that now. If Thailand is such a dangerous place, someone name for me the last Thai mass/serial murderer, or one that blew up a building full of innocent people in a major city, or the last time a crazed kid(s) opened fire with automatic weapons in a school of any description. No this is generally a peaceful, non-confrontational society in comparison to our western catholic-based ones and the comparisons are stark and in most cases polar in comparison, but when the occasional exception sadly occurs here most foreigners want to kick all Thais in the same punching bag. I disagree strongly. They do have a long way to go in many areas of their justice system, but hey, 2-3 generations ago most of them were just farmers. If this was a Thai couple getting shot in New York by a drunk off duty cop it might make a small page 3 snippet and few people would even care less IMHO.

How about a bit of the "when in Rome" theorem here and not be to quick to criticize anything before they have their chance to step up to the plate. And even if they don't step up, they certainly aren't without good company in that field.

Thats twice in this thread that the Brazilian murder has been used as a comparison.

Please explain to me.... and i mean PLEASE explain to me how the following incidents are comparible;

1) Scotland Yard, with SAS (supposedly) supporting them, followed whom they thought was a terror suspect to a train station and shot him in the head several times when they wrongly assumed his back pack contained a bomb.

2) Off duty Thai copper shoots a Canadian tourist in the head, shoots his GF, for no immediate apparent reason, according to her statement.

Whatever reason the Thai copper had, i am SURE he did not suspect the Canadian dude as a terror supspect.

Its a stupid, narrow minded anology. Sure, the British Police made a fatal error. A huge mistake owing to confusion born out of miscommunicated inteligence. The British Security service's inteligence is amongst the best in the world however on this occasion, they fcuked up and got it wrong. They certainly did not mean to murder an innocent Brazilian tourist.

Did the Thai copper mean to murder the innocent Candian tourist? Well, yes. Unless the point blank head shot was intended as a warning shot.

Jeeeez. Give me a break man.

Well GetBackJoJo,

you can find differences in any abuse of power.

What I claim, is that we should think twice before stating ourselves as protectors of human rights and keepers of democracy.

Police usually do whatever they want. Somewhere more, somewhere less.

Besides the "suspect terrorist" thing, that may open a whole new topic... (happy brainwashing)

I hate injustice, but I do see as an injustice too the assumption that our countries are better.

I give you a break no problem

[Claymore]

I spoke with two eyewitnesses on the scene in Pai, including the owner of the roadside restaurant. Both said the couple were definitely fighting and that Daeng (restaurant owner) asked the policeman to try and stop the fight. Both descriptions of events matched the latest Bangkok Post report, below.

Reisig is allegedly known in Pai for aggressive behaviour towards both resident farangs and Thais, had struck a policeman (the same policeman?) in Be-Bop Bar a few weeks earlier, and was seen fighting with her Thai boyfriend at the most recent Pittalew party. Another related point -- Feun, the Thai boyfriend, had been arrested for drug possession in front of the Pai police station a few months ago. This isn't to say the shootings were in any way deserved, just that there may have been personal history issues involved.

Policeman faces murder charge

CHEEWIN SATTHA

Chiang Mai _ A policeman who shot dead a Canadian tourist and wounded his girlfriend in Mae Hong Son's Pai district was yesterday charged with premeditated murder and attempted murder. Pol Sgt-Maj Uthai Dechawiwat was released on bail, said the chief of the Provincial Police Region 5, Pol Lt-Gen Theerasak Chookitkhun.

The shooting occurred on Sunday when Pol Sgt-Maj Uthai tried to break up an argument between the couple, Leo John Del Pinto and Carly Reisig, outside a restaurant after the man accused his girlfriend of having an affair with a Thai man.

The off-duty police officer said he was asked by the restaurant owner to help stop the argument.

Pol Sgt-Maj Uthai fled into hiding before turning himself in yesterday to fight the charges in court. He maintained it was an accident, telling investigators he was attacked during the scuffle and drew his gun to fire a warning shot.

He claimed the tourists tried to snatch the weapon from him and it accidentally went off. Del Pinto was hit twice and his girlfriend once. She was rushed to a hospital in Chiang Mai and treated for a wound to the right hip. Pol Lt-Gen Theerasak said Ms Reisig was still in shock and not ready for questioning.

No order to suspend Pol Sgt-Maj Uthai from work has been issued so far.

I think the your initial comments, not the B Post story, are much closer to the mark and so I gather does Andrew Drummond in which case I guess we'll be hearing more soon. The shots do appear to have been aimed. The girl has no wound in her right hip.

[Arkady]

The Thai press seems to have dropped the story today which suggests that the police PR version has been readily accepted by the Thai media and the headlines of the Canadian media had no impact. The families will have to fight very hard with their government and MPs to get any attention for the story in Thailand. No doubt the standard operating procedure of witness intimidation and character assassination of the victims is already in full swing and there is no reason to think it won't be highly successful in a small town like Pai. The disinformation about Reisig's wound being to the hip not to the chest, as is clear from the photograph, must be deliberate to suppport the story of accidental discharge (3 of them). It doesn't matter that the medical evidence later contradicts it as the discrepancy will not important later. For now it serves a purpose to downplay the story in the

Thai media.

I wonder if the Canadian Embassy tried to have an independent autopsy done on del Pinto. Normally the police try to prevent this being done on deceased foreign nationals, or mess up the body or hold it so long that nothing can be determined any more. The Pattaya police have routinely done this in the case of the many foreign tourists who have been suspiciously reported dead with heroin overdoses, even though they didn't fit the profile of a heroin addict e.g. middle aged, holding down a regular job with no history of drug abuse. Same thing happened with an American with a history of mental illness in Phuket who allegedly bashed himself to death against the bars in a police cell after being arrested drunk for insulting a policeman.

[Arkady]

Can someone tell me if Thai channels have covered this story yet? My girlfriend says not, and there has been nothing that I have seen in the English speaking press, even though this execution is an international story and it happened 4 days ago. Is this military censorship in action or plain and stupid - sorry, simple, Thai (shame)face saving?

I don't think they have. Murders are pretty common in Thailand and there is a lot of other news around at the moment e.g. the recent passing of HRH Galyani Wadhana, continuing political uncertainty, the return of Thaksin's wife etc. The murders of the two Russian girls in Pattaya and the Japanese girl in Sukhothai got a lot of coverage but I think that was because 1) they were women and there was a possible rape angle in the case of the Japanese girl and sexual capers in the case of the Russian girls 2) policemen were not accused of the murders. Same thing for the Samui rape and murder. The Thai media love sordid stories and delight in publishing photographs of young female rape and murder victims. The two Russian girls were a big hit with the media as they were good looking and the police distributed (for a fee?) pictures from the girls' own cameras of them on beach in bikinis. These, along with photographs of their scantily clad blood soaked corpses did the rounds of the Thai language news magazines for over a week. I think you can assume that the police PR machine has successfully defused the Pai story in the Thai media by presenting it as an accident and that the victims are to blame. Many are probably feeling as sorry for the killer and concerned for his ability to sleep peacefully in the future as the more absurd Pollyanna posters in this thread.

[kat]

Thank you Arkady. You have a very knowledgeable, objective and trustworthy perspective on Thailand and I hope you remain on this thread.

...

And me. I am not in any way disputing whether or not she was a nice person, maybe complained about an overcharge on her bill one too many times, maybe was a bit too abrasive here and there, or stared down a couple of odious King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats, it is important to understand the cop's motive, but none of it will excuse how Leo del Pinto was murdered in cold blood by a cop who is now out on bail, and will most likely get away with it.

From the many insightful and illuminating posts I've read I hadn't actually considered linking "King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats" into this quagmire. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, definitely casts a whole new light on things.

Often people relating past events will leave out some of the small details that compromise how they would like to remember things, seems like the case here. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

And I am sure Pai is just crawling with white King of the Jungle Sexpats to stare down - it must be the alpha male capital of Asia

As you say though the truth is probably somewhere between. She might have had a few drunken or drugged up scuffles but the reaction of the plod was just too much for a loss of face.

I suppose the smaller than man with his shitty wage and lowly place in society any loss of face is magnified as he has minimum anyway.

I am not trying to say that Pai is a bastion of sex pats. I am alluding to the fact that hostility and muted animosity between white long-term expats and Western women is rife in Thailand and needs to be considered in any comments here about a Western woman's so-called characterization. I am not discounting anything that has been said, but only discounting some sort of imposed hierarchy of "expertise" based on more self-selected heresy. With all of the angles and self-interests to consider, no one here can really make that claim at this moment, or maybe ever.

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

JacknDanny makes a pretty good point here. Posters that attack Thai society or the Thai people to incite others with a more moderate view seems divisive. Why would anyone with such a contemptuous opinion of the whole country by here at all. While we all (or most of us) want justice the whole story is not available here. The CSI Syndrome is alive and well on Thai Visa as usual and many of the "experts" here think supposition and rumor justify whacking the suspect to save money and to serve some brand of justice. This is a genuine tragedy that will be repeated until changes are made in the basic threads of society here and the police actually receive some relevant training. To all the amateur detectives out there: Preface you opinions with you CV and we will be able to tell the arm chair detectives that have received their training from television shows from those who actually have been involved in major criminal investigations.

This is a thread about yet another murderous cop in Thailand, out on bail. If you have a problem with what you perceive as my negativity in discussing the facts of this case and widely acknowledged aspects of Thai culture, your problem is much greater than me. Please feel free to counter any comments on this thread which you believe to be falsely or gratuitously negative. I have never claimed to be an "expert" CSI on this case and on the contrary, stated explicitly that neither I or anyone else could make such a claim. Furthermore, I agree, everyone should openly declare their CVs or livelihoods while in Thailand. If that was a requirement, you would very quickly understand the meaning of self-interests and ego investment in portraying a certain representation of issues in Thailand.

[Ajarn]

In my experences here over the last 23 years is that if you mess with a local Thai, there are bound to be consequences....

[kat]

Back to the topic of the thread:

Regarding Reisigs recent past:

1. This cop approached them in plain-clothes, didn't identify himself as a cop, and punched a strange woman in the head on the street. It was perfectly natural for them to react and try to defend themselves by shoving him away. The cop then acted in a completely unnatural and unwarranted show of force by drawing his gun, and then firing three fatally aimed shots. When Leo del Pinto wrestled with him for the gun, he probably still didn't know the guy was a cop.

2. Reisig allegedly punched a cop two weeks earlier .... where was it -- in a bar??? Was this another social interaction of a plain clothes and undeclared cop? Do we know why she would punch a guy in a bar? No, we don't, and we don't even know if it happened or have her account of things so it is still one-sided heresy.

3. None of this should matter in apportioning blame to the cop and his actions, and the actions of the Thai judicial system. None of it.

[pippomusic]

Somebody died, this is terrible, not for him, he is probably in a better place or in no place at all by now, but for the stream of pain and suffering left beyond...

BUT EXCUSE ME, What is this resentement and DISGUST? Send email of DISGUST to thai embassies? This sounds ABSURD...

Why we like to live and/or stay in thailand? (Put a cross where applies)

1 - With the price of an average meal in our country, we can afford a 5 stars day all included

2 - Women are as beautiful as angels

3 - For who is interested, 1000 baht are usually enough for a first class hooker

4 - Spirituality, superstition and beliefs make magic still exist here

5 - Tropical weather

6 - Fantastic nature

7 - First class services at the price of a snack

8 - People are still quite naiv and open heart

You may be interested in just a few of the above but...

ALL OF THESE, SORRY TO SAY SO, IS BECAUSE WE ARE MORE OR LESS IN THE THIRD WORLD (In case you forgot).

It is terrible to hear news of death and pain, but please keep your complaints for european or american institutions. If you enjoy life here, then accept the inevitable. Try to learn something from the buddhist culture around us, otherwise, GO HOME, enjoy political correctness, and pay a meal 1000 baht.

love

Pippo

Oh God. Another one.

ROFL

It does bring the nutter's out from under their rock a thread like this.

From the rabid sociopaths fantasising that a rabid dog farang has been put down in the street to the airy fairy hippies who then fantasise over 1000 THB high class hookers - amazing Thailand

ahahah airy fairy hippie is the best definition I ever received thanks

I guess you didnt get my point...

Lots of us are here enjoying the benefits of living in a "developing" country.

It just sems pointless to me trying to apply measures of judgement coming from european culture (all western culture descends from europe) to situations that should trigger differend kind of thoughts...

Then, if I used the word "hooker" and that stimulated a puritanist mental self-censorship, which didnt allow you to read the content, I apologize. The use of sarcasm is not appreciated by all. But believe me, many of the farangs here keep point 2 (availability of young cheap hookers) as a key reason to remain in the Kingdom.

Concerning myself, I am still young and pleasant enough not to have to pay for feminine companionship... therefore I am not a user.

respect

Pippo

[Prakanong]

Somebody died, this is terrible, not for him, he is probably in a better place or in no place at all by now, but for the stream of pain and suffering left beyond...

BUT EXCUSE ME, What is this resentement and DISGUST? Send email of DISGUST to thai embassies? This sounds ABSURD...

Why we like to live and/or stay in thailand? (Put a cross where applies)

1 - With the price of an average meal in our country, we can afford a 5 stars day all included

2 - Women are as beautiful as angels

3 - For who is interested, 1000 baht are usually enough for a first class hooker

4 - Spirituality, superstition and beliefs make magic still exist here

5 - Tropical weather

6 - Fantastic nature

7 - First class services at the price of a snack

8 - People are still quite naiv and open heart

You may be interested in just a few of the above but...

ALL OF THESE, SORRY TO SAY SO, IS BECAUSE WE ARE MORE OR LESS IN THE THIRD WORLD (In case you forgot).

It is terrible to hear news of death and pain, but please keep your complaints for european or american institutions. If you enjoy life here, then accept the inevitable. Try to learn something from the buddhist culture around us, otherwise, GO HOME, enjoy political correctness, and pay a meal 1000 baht.

love

Pippo

Oh God. Another one.

ROFL

It does bring the nutter's out from under their rock a thread like this.

From the rabid sociopaths fantasising that a rabid dog farang has been put down in the street to the airy fairy hippies who then fantasise over 1000 THB high class hookers - amazing Thailand

ahahah airy fairy hippie is the best definition I ever received thanks

I guess you didnt get my point...

Lots of us are here enjoying the benefits of living in a "developing" country.

It just sems pointless to me trying to apply measures of judgement coming from european culture (all western culture descends from europe) to situations that should trigger differend kind of thoughts...

Then, if I used the word "hooker" and that stimulated a puritanist mental self-censorship, which didnt allow you to read the content, I apologize. The use of sarcasm is not appreciated by all. But believe me, many of the farangs here keep point 2 (availability of young cheap hookers) as a key reason to remain in the Kingdom.

Concerning myself, I am still young and pleasant enough not to have to pay for feminine companionship... therefore I am not a user.

respect

Pippo

Disregarding the hooker stuff and where western moral judgements emanate from I am pretty certain modern Asian culture and thought also condems the action of this policeman.

The Chinese, Singaporean Chinese, Malay, Filipino, Burmese etc who all sit within spitting distance of me at work also came to the same conclusions I as a European have about this.

[grantbkk]

Thank you Arkady. You have a very knowledgeable, objective and trustworthy perspective on Thailand and I hope you remain on this thread.

...

And me. I am not in any way disputing whether or not she was a nice person, maybe complained about an overcharge on her bill one too many times, maybe was a bit too abrasive here and there, or stared down a couple of odious King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats, it is important to understand the cop's motive, but none of it will excuse how Leo del Pinto was murdered in cold blood by a cop who is now out on bail, and will most likely get away with it.

From the many insightful and illuminating posts I've read I hadn't actually considered linking "King-of-the-Jungle white sexpats" into this quagmire. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, definitely casts a whole new light on things.

Often people relating past events will leave out some of the small details that compromise how they would like to remember things, seems like the case here. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

And I am sure Pai is just crawling with white King of the Jungle Sexpats to stare down - it must be the alpha male capital of Asia

As you say though the truth is probably somewhere between. She might have had a few drunken or drugged up scuffles but the reaction of the plod was just too much for a loss of face.

I suppose the smaller than man with his shitty wage and lowly place in society any loss of face is magnified as he has minimum anyway.

I am not trying to say that Pai is a bastion of sex pats. I am alluding to the fact that hostility and muted animosity between white long-term expats and Western women is rife in Thailand and needs to be considered in any comments here about a Western woman's so-called characterization. I am not discounting anything that has been said, but only discounting some sort of imposed hierarchy of "expertise" based on more self-selected heresy. With all of the angles and self-interests to consider, no one here can really make that claim at this moment, or maybe ever.

As someone acquainted with the principal characters involved in the case, as well as the witnesses, I find the third-party eyewitness reports more reliable-sounding than any other testimony yet available. The two Thais I spoke to didn't seem afraid at all. But if they do have reason to fear for their lives, why isn't Reisig similarly fearful, since her story diverges most (from that of third-party witnesses and the cop)?

BTW the policemen had his weapon with him because he had just finished his shift. Pai residents who know the cop say it's highly unlikely he would fire unless provoked. Unlike the victims, he apparently has no history of violence in Pai (till now, obviously, and of course the shootings were not warranted in any event). Still there's more to this story than what's coming to us via quickly filed newspaper reports.

Hmm are you serious? Asking why a FALANG born and bred in Canada is not going to be easily cowed and pressured by the thought of Thai police coming to kill her? Thais KNOW they are at the mercy of thier police, ESPECIALLY the poor ones. Falangs have a sense of justice and morality that most Thais do not understand, not because they are morally corrupt but because it simply doesnt work that way in their culture. If I saw my friend get murdered before my eyes and I was hospitalised I would be thinking purely about justice and righteousness. But that is how I was raised in Canada. Even if I was fearful, I would not allow a murderer to get off out of fear, I would be willing to further risk my life and stand by the truth, but maybe that is just me. And possibly, Reisig.

Please if you know Reisig and the cop personally like you said, tell us about them. I would not accept what the witnesses said wholeheartedly due to the fear of retribution from the powers around them, but if you know the killer and vicitim I would like to know about that and would be willing to accept your experiences with them.

Damian

You know I get a little bit fed up with your posts. Whenever you have a chance you are attacking Thailand and the people who post positive things about Thailand.

People like you and Kat amaze me. At least she left the country. You are still here complaining like an old woman!!

Re your above point. Someone has come on and said that they personally know Reisig and the cop, yet you choose to believe what is in your own mind without any substance. Personally I accept the 'character' references given by sabaijai. I believe that the truth out there is probably somewhere in between what both parties have stated.

My problem in all of this is that the police, unfortunately are wholly corrupt and totally inadequate in solving cases such as this.

Crime scenes not preserved, witnesses not interviewed either correctly or not at all.

There is no excuse for a so called trained professional to kill in cold blood, if indeed that was the case.

It does seem however that the aggrieved were not as innocent as first thought.

I am not condoning to this unfortunate death, but it would seem as though the behaviour of these 2 farangs was a contributing factor to the death.

In any case Damian, do me a favour and stop jumping on the bandwagon trying to attack Thailand at every opportunity you have

JacknDanny makes a pretty good point here. Posters that attack Thai society or the Thai people to incite others with a more moderate view seems divisive. Why would anyone with such a contemptuous opinion of the whole country by here at all. While we all (or most of us) want justice the whole story is not available here. The CSI Syndrome is alive and well on Thai Visa as usual and many of the "experts" here think supposition and rumor justify whacking the suspect to save money and to serve some brand of justice. This is a genuine tragedy that will be repeated until changes are made in the basic threads of society here and the police actually receive some relevant training. To all the amateur detectives out there: Preface you opinions with you CV and we will be able to tell the arm chair detectives that have received their training from television shows from those who actually have been involved in major criminal investigations.

This is a thread about yet another murderous cop in Thailand, out on bail. If you have a problem with what you perceive as my negativity in discussing the facts of this case and widely acknowledged aspects of Thai culture, your problem is much greater than me. Please feel free to counter any comments on this thread which you believe to be falsely or gratuitously negative. I have never claimed to be an "expert" CSI on this case and on the contrary, stated explicitly that neither I or anyone else could make such a claim. Furthermore, I agree, everyone should openly declare their CVs or livelihoods while in Thailand. If that was a requirement, you would very quickly understand the meaning of self-interests and ego investment in portraying a certain representation of issues in Thailand.

This tragic killing and wounding of foreigners always brings out the best in people. What I was trying to say without personally offending any single person (except maybe the policeman who shot the victims) was that this is an open case and wishing a quick death for the alleged suspect is just plain wrong. Most of us on this thread are foreigners who are guests in Thailand. This is a developing country with lots of problems and some systems are obviously out of control. Arkady seems pretty level headed and explains rules of Thai law as they pertain to law and bail. He should be commended for his efforts here. Speculation keeps us engaged on the topic at hand but really doesn't do anyone any good. We should probably be flooding the Canadian Embassy with correspondence that could cause some sense of pressure on officials to act in this case.