Two Tourists In Pai Shot By A Police Officer

[sabaijai]

Couple of facts wrong in the article. Pu Ekkarat does not play guitar at Be-Bop, never has, and he was not there the night of the incident, even as a customer. Sgt Maj Uthai has not 'resumed his duties' but has been sent to an inactive post in another town, which I understand is a fairly standard police response in situations such as this, as anyone who lives in Thailand knows.

Just to clarify , if we are all going to nit-pick. There is no claim by the author that Pu Ekkarat was at the Be-Bop that night or was a witness to the killing.

Sgt Major Uthai has not been suspended hence he has resumed his duties - in this case elsewhere.

The couple of facts I was referring to were Pu's playing at Be-Bop, and that Uthai had not resumed his duties. In fact you are wrong on the latter point, he has not resumed his duties, he is inactive. If you know different, please cite a source. (In these two points, I'm the source.) I added comments on Pu's not being a witness to either the fight or the shooting as it seems relevant to his testimony.

[sabaijai]

There are witnesses in Pai now saying that Fuen drove up on a motorcycle and started the fight, which was between himself and Carly, not her and Leo. He was allegedly drunk and appeared to be jealous/angry that Carly was walking with her ex. Don't know how credible these reports but as mentioned in earlier reports, she was seen fighting with Fuen on a previous occasion at an outdoor party.

Am getting a little bit bored now from these 'witnesses' in Pai. Because witnesses they are not unless they want to give evidence. I am sure there are at least 100 different versions among the local and local ex-pat community and the stories will be getting better in the telling. Should we give the above some credibility.

I don't think so. There are certainly witnesses claiming Fuen and Leo were good friends. All three were going onwards and upwards to another bar at the time.

And your source for this information? Any more reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

[Arkady]

Khunying Pornthip (the DSI's chief pathologist) told the FCCT that police doctors who were supposed to collect forensic evidence when people had been murdered during the war against drugs frequently didn't even show up at the crimes scenes. They just pretended they went and filed the reports police asked them to write. I am surprised that anyone would not believe that the police are capable of faking a toxicology report or any other forensic evidence that might suit them or that Thai doctors and paramedics are not susceptible to corruption and police intimidation like most other Thais. Police doctors have ample opportunities to see how people that are disliked by the police can end up. In any case the police have never said how long after the shootings Uthai turned himself in but it sounds as if it was the next day i.e. many hours after the incident by which time his alcohol blood level would not have been relevant any more.

In the case of the recent shooting death during the protests against the Sahaviriya Steel plant, the suspect is calling for the Crime Suppression Division (CSD) to take over the investigation because he doesn't trust local police. As it is a high profile case, it is quite likely that he will get his wish. One of the most pathetic and unjust elements of the Pai case is that the Pai police have been allowed to conduct the investigation themselves under the direction of Uthai's boss and no one has called for the DSI, which would be more appropriate in this case because it is not part of the police, to take over the investigation. Can our experts on Canadian jurisprudence tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?

[yorkman]

And your source for this information? Any more reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

It is still back to the facts.

2 Canadians dead because they had no idea what they were getting into

They thought they could travel, and do as they please.

As said before, Thailand does not need them, nor does any country.

[kat]

And your source for this information? Any more reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

As said before, Thailand does not need them, nor does any country.

No, no of course not; what Thailand needs, are walking ATMS and foreigners that are willing to pay above market rate Sin sods, and who bestow homes and gifts to the family. There will be no use for them either once the money runs out and property is transferred.

* And if your statement is a fact so is this one.

Edited February 2, 2008 by sabaijai

[permanent_disorder]

Can our experts on Canadian jurisprudence tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?

you ask for experts, so it can not be damian. but you are right, let's have a look how the things get handled in canada and study some cases where police officers use guns against 'delinquents'

but how comes that our committed justice loving canadian brother and sisters and truth fighter didn't talk a little bit about their citizen in uniform? that would explain why they so stubborn blame all thai police in general and claim to know all about. comes all from the bad memories at home.

on this website you will find a long list of victim of canadian police violence.

http://members.fortunecity.com/brutalitycanada/names.html interesting read.

and before we had http://www.justiceforleo.com , we had http://www.justiceforottovass.tyo.ca . read more here

but same as the speculation if and when then why the pai police officer sporting a brand new amulette or stories about some fighting at night time on the suk&vomit road known from hearsay, in the end it will not so much help to find out what happen that night in pai.

[kat]

Can our experts on Canadian jurisprudence tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?

you ask for experts, so it can not be damian. but you are right, let's have a look how the things get handled in canada and study some cases where police officers use guns against 'delinquents'

but how comes that our committed justice loving canadian brother and sisters and truth fighter didn't talk a little bit about their citizen in uniform? that would explain why they so stubborn blame all thai police in general and claim to know all about. comes all from the bad memories at home.

on this website you will find a long list of victim of canadian police violence.

http://members.fortunecity.com/brutalitycanada/names.html interesting read.

and before we had http://www.justiceforleo.com , we had http://www.justiceforottovass.tyo.ca . read more here

but same as the speculation if and when then why the pai police officer sporting a brand new amulette or stories about some fighting at night time on the suk&vomit road known from hearsay, in the end it will not so much help to find out what happen that night in pai.

hmmm, interesting cases but much of the list from the first site are never updated as to the results of the investigations, some are incompletely described (such as died in a car chase from police), and both are advocacy sites, which means you are only hearing one side of the story. It doesn't mean that there is no injustice, but a list of names doesn't prove anything.

I thought an excerpt from the Otto Vass site might interest you in particular:

"The police lawyers' tactic - putting the character and psychiatric history of Vass on trial rather than the 51 blows inflicted on Vass by the cops - was successful. This is what happens on those rare occasions when police are called before the courts because of their violence: the victim is put on trial."

[DamianMavis]

Can our experts on Canadian jurisprudence tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?

you ask for experts, so it can not be damian. but you are right, let's have a look how the things get handled in canada and study some cases where police officers use guns against 'delinquents'

but how comes that our committed justice loving canadian brother and sisters and truth fighter didn't talk a little bit about their citizen in uniform? that would explain why they so stubborn blame all thai police in general and claim to know all about. comes all from the bad memories at home.

on this website you will find a long list of victim of canadian police violence.

http://members.fortunecity.com/brutalitycanada/names.html interesting read.

and before we had http://www.justiceforleo.com , we had http://www.justiceforottovass.tyo.ca . read more here

but same as the speculation if and when then why the pai police officer sporting a brand new amulette or stories about some fighting at night time on the suk&vomit road known from hearsay, in the end it will not so much help to find out what happen that night in pai.

No Im no bloody expert on Canadian police, I dont even recognise them out of uniform like so many others do apparently! heh

No no bad memories from home here... accept once a French cop in Aylmer Quebec hassled me for not speaking french when I was 18 years old......think I'm mentally scarred for life by that one?

Why are guys like you always so obsessed with me and start to stalk me? You and Blizzard should form a fan club.

Damian

[geriatrickid]

1. I am surprised that anyone would not believe that the police are capable of faking a toxicology report or any other forensic evidence that might suit them or that Thai doctors and paramedics are not susceptible to corruption and police intimidation like most other Thais.

2. tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?[/quote]

1, My statement was in respect to that made about "hospital tests", i.e. a blood sample taken at the hospital and not a blood sample taken by a "police doctor". I don't doubt for a minute that a police doctor could be considered biased. However, I have confidence that a test taken in a hospital would be less suceptible to tampering. I base this on personal experience with clinical trials. There is incentive for some people to sabotage trials particularly when it can have an impact on the presumed sponsor's share price. With the millions of dollars at stake, to date there has been no evidence that any Thai clinician has fudged results, despite the allegations of large amounts of monies being offered and physical intimidation. Yes, I know, some people think Thai medical staff are corrupt and easily bought just like everyone else is supposed to be corrupt in Thailand. However, there is no evidence that this has been done to date. Now if they won't do it when someone is offering big baht, I have a hard time buying into the suggestion that a clinician would do it for a small town copper.

On a technical note, it's hard to tamper with blood samples without destroying them which would render them inadmissible as evidence, as well as raising some questions. Results, even in rural hospitals are logged into programs and these are time stamped. Errors occur for sure, but there's still a log of the procedure. How do I know that? Well, because several ongoing studies require those procedures particularly the population assessments for infectious disease. Were proper procedures followed? I don't know, that's up to the courts to determine.

2. And now for that question about police investigation procedures in Canada. Outside of 3 provinces the RCMP functions as municipal, provincial and federal policing. When the mounties shoot someone, the mounties investigate themselves. Shades of Thailand. eh?

This situation has given rise to anumber of allegations of conflicts of interests. Here's a nice summary of the situation. There's a parallel to the Pai situation. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/rcmp/civ...n-shooting.html

There are a few other cases like that in rural Canadian towns. The most recent involves a prisoner shot in the head at close range while in custody. Again shades of Pai.

[Arkady]

The Pai police did not disclose the nature of the evidence they have to prove that Uthai had only drunk one can of beer or how this evidence was obtained. They didn't say that the test was not performed by a police doctor and Geriatrickid seems to concur that police doctors would be unreliable in a case where the suspect is a policeman. They also didn't say that the test was not performed by a paramedic which also seems quite likely. Geriatrickid seems to be talking about blood tests taken by large hospitals by senior pathologists with professional reputations to worry about. If the test had been performed by a senior consultant from a large private Bangkok hospital with high level family and social connections, I would agree with you. But we are talking about Pai here. I also think that it is hardly likely that more sophisticated lab tests would have been performed to determine whether the suspect had been drunk 10 hours earlier. A simple snapshot blood/alcohol test is far more likely.

There are plenty of cases where the Thai police have distorted, ignored or ridiculed forensic evidence to protect their own people or high paying suspects. Think back to the Kirsty Jones case when the Chiang Mai police, anxious to divert the investigation from one of their own, "proved" that a farang rapist/murderer could easily have left traces of distinctly Asian DNA by planting Asian sperm on the victim's body while somehow carefully removing all traces of his own Western DNA. Their methodology was to go out and buy sperm samples from lady boys on the street. Ludricous, isn't it? But Chiang Mai police generals didn't hesitate to put forward this argument and they succeeded in preventing a detailed investigation of police suspects by the DSI supported by Welsh police. The murderer remains at large and may well have killed again. The problem is that, unless the victim is some one from a wealthy and well connected family, the public prosecutors and the judges are not likely to challenge the police evidence in defense of the police, however slipshod or ludricous it looks. See how easy it was for the BPP police gang to secure convictions on their victims using faked evidence. Even physical evidence of electric shocks to the victims and the fact that the police, a junior unit based in Chumphon Province, were operating in Bangkok, Surat and other provinces beyond its jurisdiction was ignored by prosecutors and judges.

I regret asking whether a local police force in Canada would be allowed to investigate a murder where one of their colleagues was the suspect because it brought forth a host of irrelevant Canadian examples. The question should be how do civilized jurisdictions deal with investigations involving a police suspect? I think the answer is overwhelmingly that experienced homicide investigators who have no connections with the area or the persons involved are called in. In most cases they would also be police because few countries have an organization like the DSI which has experienced criminal investigators but is not part of the police. In any case a large proportion of the DSI's investigators are former policemen.

Unfortunately Thailand is not a civilized jurisdiction because it does not have rule of law. No amount of adoring education in Thai culture or the habits of drunken policemen can protect victims of police brutality and brown uniformed criminal gangs. Foreign visitors should be aware of this. I don't see this as a Western perspective. There are also civilized jurisdictions in Asia where people see things the same way i.e. Japan and Singapore. Even if I don't like the Singaporean political system, they have rule of law. Thailand is extremely backwards in this respect and no improvement can be expected for decades. Foreigners who like to justify the corrupt, amoral system and blame the victims are confusing complacency and intellectual flabbiness with assimilation and knowledge of Thai culture.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Arkady

[geriatrickid]

arkady, you might want to send a note to Canada's Foreign affairs department indicating your concerns about Thailand being lawless. Seems they just updated their entry for Thailand as follows

1. RECENT UPDATES

A Travel Warning has been removed from this report.

Same thing on Australian, UK, USA sites as to Thailand being relatively safe. You better get that message out to them as well.

Only thing still mentioned are advisories against travel in the south. Vehicle dangers still get a mention as does pickpocketing. They all use similar language.

BTW, back in Canada, the story is over. The sun came up again, the winter's fury continues and folks don't care. No different than if I was hit by a drunk driver and killed. The typical citizen only cares about life in his/her bubble. That's the reality.

[Claymore]

The Pai police did not disclose the nature of the evidence they have to prove that Uthai had only drunk one can of beer or how this evidence was obtained. They didn't say that the test was not performed by a police doctor and Geriatrickid seems to concur that police doctors would be unreliable in a case where the suspect is a policeman. They also didn't say that the test was not performed by a paramedic which also seems quite likely. Geriatrickid seems to be talking about blood tests taken by large hospitals by senior pathologists with professional reputations to worry about. If the test had been performed by a senior consultant from a large private Bangkok hospital with high level family and social connections, I would agree with you. But we are talking about Pai here. I also think that it is hardly likely that more sophisticated lab tests would have been performed to determine whether the suspect had been drunk 10 hours earlier. A simple snapshot blood/alcohol test is far more likely.

There are plenty of cases where the Thai police have distorted, ignored or ridiculed forensic evidence to protect their own people or high paying suspects. Think back to the Kirsty Jones case when the Chiang Mai police, anxious to divert the investigation from one of their own, "proved" that a farang rapist/murderer could easily have left traces of distinctly Asian DNA by planting Asian sperm on the victim's body while somehow carefully removing all traces of his own Western DNA. Their methodology was to go out and buy sperm samples from lady boys on the street. Ludricous, isn't it? But Chiang Mai police generals didn't hesitate to put forward this argument and they succeeded in preventing a detailed investigation of police suspects by the DSI supported by Welsh police. The murderer remains at large and may well have killed again. The problem is that, unless the victim is some one from a wealthy and well connected family, the public prosecutors and the judges are not likely to challenge the police evidence in defense of the police, however slipshod or ludricous it looks. See how easy it was for the BPP police gang to secure convictions on their victims using faked evidence. Even physical evidence of electric shocks to the victims and the fact that the police, a junior unit based in Chumphon Province, were operating in Bangkok, Surat and other provinces beyond its jurisdiction was ignored by prosecutors and judges.

I regret asking whether a local police force in Canada would be allowed to investigate a murder where one of their colleagues was the suspect because it brought forth a host of irrelevant Canadian examples. The question should be how do civilized jurisdictions deal with investigations involving a police suspect? I think the answer is overwhelmingly that experienced homicide investigators who have no connections with the area or the persons involved are called in. In most cases they would also be police because few countries have an organization like the DSI which has experienced criminal investigators but is not part of the police. In any case a large proportion of the DSI's investigators are former policemen.

Unfortunately Thailand is not a civilized jurisdiction because it does not have rule of law. No amount of adoring education in Thai culture or the habits of drunken policemen can protect victims of police brutality and brown uniformed criminal gangs. Foreign visitors should be aware of this. I don't see this as a Western perspective. There are also civilized jurisdictions in Asia where people see things the same way i.e. Japan and Singapore. Even if I don't like the Singaporean political system, they have rule of law. Thailand is extremely backwards in this respect and no improvement can be expected for decades. Foreigners who like to justify the corrupt, amoral system and blame the victims are confusing complacency and intellectual flabbiness with assimilation and knowledge of Thai culture.

Spot on again

[Claymore]

There are witnesses in Pai now saying that Fuen drove up on a motorcycle and started the fight, which was between himself and Carly, not her and Leo. He was allegedly drunk and appeared to be jealous/angry that Carly was walking with her ex. Don't know how credible these reports but as mentioned in earlier reports, she was seen fighting with Fuen on a previous occasion at an outdoor party.

Am getting a little bit bored now from these 'witnesses' in Pai. Because witnesses they are not unless they want to give evidence. I am sure there are at least 100 different versions among the local and local ex-pat community and the stories will be getting better in the telling. Should we give the above some credibility.

I don't think so. There are certainly witnesses claiming Fuen and Leo were good friends. All three were going onwards and upwards to another bar at the time.

And your source for this information? Any reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

Sabaijai you are half right and half wrong. Its the wrong things you r saying which r confusing this board. And your apparently unfailing belief in the honesty of witnesses in Pai.

Yes. I believe Fuen did come on a m/c. Yes the disgreement was between Carly and Fuen and it had sweet f.a. to do with Leo.

Its this assumption that there is a lovers tiff over Leo or something that really is playing into police hands. What seems fairly apparent now is that some witnesses have been rigged. Leo btw is smaller in stature than Carly so I dont know how he came out as this big monster.

Remember the father of Somchai Wisetsingh who said his son had been bedding Vanessa on a regular basis and that Adam Lloyd was jealous of him?!!!!!

I do not believe Carly has lied but she did hold back in an earlier interview. Either that or she had a genuine memory loss.

Be a little circumspect. Because you r in the area does not mean u know what the truth is but your info could be v useful if presented in a more even handed way, and your tone has much improved in that respect.

[Claymore]

Khunying Pornthip (the DSI's chief pathologist) told the FCCT that police doctors who were supposed to collect forensic evidence when people had been murdered during the war against drugs frequently didn't even show up at the crimes scenes. They just pretended they went and filed the reports police asked them to write. I am surprised that anyone would not believe that the police are capable of faking a toxicology report or any other forensic evidence that might suit them or that Thai doctors and paramedics are not susceptible to corruption and police intimidation like most other Thais. Police doctors have ample opportunities to see how people that are disliked by the police can end up. In any case the police have never said how long after the shootings Uthai turned himself in but it sounds as if it was the next day i.e. many hours after the incident by which time his alcohol blood level would not have been relevant any more.

In the case of the recent shooting death during the protests against the Sahaviriya Steel plant, the suspect is calling for the Crime Suppression Division (CSD) to take over the investigation because he doesn't trust local police. As it is a high profile case, it is quite likely that he will get his wish. One of the most pathetic and unjust elements of the Pai case is that the Pai police have been allowed to conduct the investigation themselves under the direction of Uthai's boss and no one has called for the DSI, which would be more appropriate in this case because it is not part of the police, to take over the investigation. Can our experts on Canadian jurisprudence tell us whether police in a small Canadian town would be allowed to investigate an alleged murder and attempted murder by one of their own colleagues or would investigators be called in from another location who didn't have any connections with any one in that town?

Am pleased to tell u DSI r now involved as well as NHRC - though DSI has poor track record. Still this matter is not party political

[Claymore]

"No, he was not drunk. He had only one can of beer that night. We did hospital tests. The foreign man was very drunk but the test shows Uthai was not drunk," he said. (The Police Chief)

This is like frickin' kindergarten: 'no he's not drunk because we say he wasn't drunk; the dead guy was more drunk'. They lose their RIGHTS to assert anything of the sort with any credibility because the cop left the scene. I can't believe they have the nerve to try and make assertions to his sobriety based on that action. What a bunch of jokesters.

Now we have other witnesses, who seem very credible, or at the very least as credible as Uthai's witnesses, although I would argue more so because statements in opposition to the police are much more risky, and credible reasons as to why they will not step forward.

*Who is Tom Williams in Pai, BTW? Another pseudonym per chance?

Yes it's another pseudonym.

Couple of facts wrong in the article. Pu Ekkarat does not play guitar at Be-Bop, never has, and he was not there the night of the incident, even as a customer. Sgt Maj Uthai has not 'resumed his duties' but has been sent to an inactive post in another town, which I understand is a fairly standard police response in situations such as this, as anyone who lives in Thailand knows.

Well the surname is a pseudonym anyway

Tom' may not be the best reporter around but he if he wants to remain anonymous, let's not blow his cover.

Absolutely - just teasing!

[sbk]

There are witnesses in Pai now saying that Fuen drove up on a motorcycle and started the fight, which was between himself and Carly, not her and Leo. He was allegedly drunk and appeared to be jealous/angry that Carly was walking with her ex. Don't know how credible these reports but as mentioned in earlier reports, she was seen fighting with Fuen on a previous occasion at an outdoor party.

Am getting a little bit bored now from these 'witnesses' in Pai. Because witnesses they are not unless they want to give evidence. I am sure there are at least 100 different versions among the local and local ex-pat community and the stories will be getting better in the telling. Should we give the above some credibility.

I don't think so. There are certainly witnesses claiming Fuen and Leo were good friends. All three were going onwards and upwards to another bar at the time.

And your source for this information? Any reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

Sabaijai you are half right and half wrong. Its the wrong things you r saying which r confusing this board. And your apparently unfailing belief in the honesty of witnesses in Pai.

Yes. I believe Fuen did come on a m/c. Yes the disgreement was between Carly and Fuen and it had sweet f.a. to do with Leo.

Its this assumption that there is a lovers tiff over Leo or something that really is playing into police hands. What seems fairly apparent now is that some witnesses have been rigged. Leo btw is smaller in stature than Carly so I dont know how he came out as this big monster.

Remember the father of Somchai Wisetsingh who said his son had been bedding Vanessa on a regular basis and that Adam Lloyd was jealous of him?!!!!!

I do not believe Carly has lied but she did hold back in an earlier interview. Either that or she had a genuine memory loss.

Be a little circumspect. Because you r in the area does not mean u know what the truth is but your info could be v useful if presented in a more even handed way, and your tone has much improved in that respect.

I've heard the same stories from a friend who lives in the area. One who has very little investment in tourism or the police and has only heard his stories from people who witnessed it. Why would local witnesses lie to a relative newcomer like my friend, one who has no local influence or contacts?

[Claymore]

I've heard the same stories from a friend who lives in the area. One who has very little investment in tourism or the police and has only heard his stories from people who witnessed it. Why would local witnesses lie to a relative newcomer like my friend, one who has no local influence or contacts?

This is the Pai version from witnesses at the restaurant. This story is repeated almost verbatim by three witnesses. Andrew Drummond described the stories as

'uncannily similar' in the Nation.

"I was sitting inside the restaurant and I watched the couple come up, punching each other and yelling. It didn't look like they were pretending, it looked like a real fight, they were shouting loudly and punching each other, but I don't know what the fight was about. They even knocked over one of the motorbikes that was parked on the bridge. I watched Uthai go over to try and stop the fight. He said "stop, I am police" and held out his hand in front of him, with his other hand ready to draw his gun. They pushed him over and he got his gun out. The girl started crying loudly and he told her to calm down and go and sit down. The policeman then started walking away from the scene, but the girl got up and hit him. Leo then joined her in hitting him and they all fell onto the ground. I couldn't see them anymore because of the parked cars, but I then heard three shots go off. If the girl had not provoked him, nothing would have happened."

This was the version given to (or orchestrated by) the ten to fiteeen officers who descended on the restaurant after Uthai legged it. And none of the witnesses say they actually saw the shooting (because of the parked cars). Does this strike a chord somewhere!? That lets them off going to court and being embarrased by their re-enactments.

Non Pai witnesseshave come forward to say this version is totally untrue. And I mean totally. To put it bluntly Pai people feel a lot happier if they can have a reason for this appalling act. And its certainly one they will be giving to tourists and locals alike.

[Claymore]

I've heard the same stories from a friend who lives in the area. One who has very little investment in tourism or the police and has only heard his stories from people who witnessed it. Why would local witnesses lie to a relative newcomer like my friend, one who has no local influence or contacts?

And of course we do live in a country where it is not de rigeur to impart the bad news

[sbk]

I've heard the same stories from a friend who lives in the area. One who has very little investment in tourism or the police and has only heard his stories from people who witnessed it. Why would local witnesses lie to a relative newcomer like my friend, one who has no local influence or contacts?

And of course we do live in a country where it is not de rigeur to impart the bad news

And you will believe what you want to believe, regardless of what other people say

[sabaijai]

There are witnesses in Pai now saying that Fuen drove up on a motorcycle and started the fight, which was between himself and Carly, not her and Leo. He was allegedly drunk and appeared to be jealous/angry that Carly was walking with her ex. Don't know how credible these reports but as mentioned in earlier reports, she was seen fighting with Fuen on a previous occasion at an outdoor party.

Am getting a little bit bored now from these 'witnesses' in Pai. Because witnesses they are not unless they want to give evidence. I am sure there are at least 100 different versions among the local and local ex-pat community and the stories will be getting better in the telling. Should we give the above some credibility.

I don't think so. There are certainly witnesses claiming Fuen and Leo were good friends. All three were going onwards and upwards to another bar at the time.

And your source for this information? Any reliable than mine? I agree, many witnesses and many versions. I mentioned the Rashomon nature of this case towards the beginning of this thread. It's beginning to make the Rashomon story look simple by comparison.

Sabaijai you are half right and half wrong. Its the wrong things you r saying which r confusing this board. And your apparently unfailing belief in the honesty of witnesses in Pai.

Yes. I believe Fuen did come on a m/c. Yes the disgreement was between Carly and Fuen and it had sweet f.a. to do with Leo.

Its this assumption that there is a lovers tiff over Leo or something that really is playing into police hands. What seems fairly apparent now is that some witnesses have been rigged. Leo btw is smaller in stature than Carly so I dont know how he came out as this big monster.

Remember the father of Somchai Wisetsingh who said his son had been bedding Vanessa on a regular basis and that Adam Lloyd was jealous of him?!!!!!

I do not believe Carly has lied but she did hold back in an earlier interview. Either that or she had a genuine memory loss.

Be a little circumspect. Because you r in the area does not mean u know what the truth is but your info could be v useful if presented in a more even handed way, and your tone has much improved in that respect.

With all due respect, I'm not impressed with your presumed monopoly on the facts. If you have some inside track that makes your version more reliable than anyone else's, please give us the background. Otherwise nothing you have to say about the case appears any more credible than anything I or anyone else has to say.

I don't know where you get the impression I have an 'unfailing belief in the honesty of witnesses in Pai'. I take it all with a grain of salt, lending most credence, however, to witnesses I know personally who have no ax to grind either way. You seem to have the opposite viewpoint, that all witnesses in Pai must be lying. My feeling is there's a lot of grey area between honest and dishonesty, with much testimony suspect not due to reasons of veracity but because no one was expecting a crime and thus no one was focusing solely on the events as they unfolded. In addition it was dark and most everyone around the scene can be safely assumed to have been in anything but a very alert state of mind. In all likelihood nothing we've heard so far can be considered 100% reliable -- aside from any assumed biases. It's a deductive fallacy to assume every witness in Pai is fudging their testimony in order to preserve tourism, etc. As I've mentioned before, many people living in Pai would like to see less, not more, tourism.

[kat]

arkady, you might want to send a note to Canada's Foreign affairs department indicating your concerns about Thailand being lawless. Seems they just updated their entry for Thailand as follows

1. RECENT UPDATES

A Travel Warning has been removed from this report.

Same thing on Australian, UK, USA sites as to Thailand being relatively safe. You better get that message out to them as well.

Only thing still mentioned are advisories against travel in the south. Vehicle dangers still get a mention as does pickpocketing. They all use similar language.

BTW, back in Canada, the story is over. The sun came up again, the winter's fury continues and folks don't care. No different than if I was hit by a drunk driver and killed. The typical citizen only cares about life in his/her bubble. That's the reality.

Glad to see that you're finally admitting that your major source of information on this is from tourist websites.

[geriatrickid]

arkady, you might want to send a note to Canada's Foreign affairs department indicating your concerns about Thailand being lawless. Seems they just updated their entry for Thailand as follows

1. RECENT UPDATES

A Travel Warning has been removed from this report.

Same thing on Australian, UK, USA sites as to Thailand being relatively safe.

Glad to see that you're finally admitting that your major source of information on this is from tourist websites.

The websites for the respective Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State serve as vehicles by which governments provide their national positions in respect to other nations. While they can serve as useful sources of information for travelers and the commercial sector, they exist for political purposes. The security assessments provide an indication of how other nations are peceived. These statements are closely read and analyzed by the subject nation. This is why nations that are subject to harsh assessments, protest and attempt to counter the embarrassment the warning brings.What you have done by slapping up your comment is to demonstrate that you do not appear to understand how foreign affairs are conducted. (This may explain why you had such difficulty in Thailand during your abbreviated stay.)

Eveyone agrees that this was a tragedy and that there is a deficiency with police discipline. All the posts in TV won't change that, nor will they bring back the deceased. Any change will have to come from within and those changes are happening, albeit slowly. Many of the old timers can tell you that it was worse in the 70's. So go on, here's your sopabox, get up and give a discourse on the backward Thai people and how they are so corrupt and primitive that they must be saved from themselves. Don't know if the response will be any different with the falangs than it was with the Thais.

As this thread has run its course for me, I sincerely hope that this thread helps you deal with your Thailand issues.

[kat]

It seems that when you cannot push your viewpoints with relevant facts, you then resort to tedious, pedantic tangents that could be as relevant to this thread as it would be to an internecine pick-pocket child gang in Madagascar. When that fails, you then resort to name calling and race-baiting. But meanwhile, nothing which you have uttered about me is true or factual, but everything which you attempt to categorize as a slur has been amply substantiated on this thread.

It is apparent that you just simply don't know as much as others on this issue, and can't substantiate anything that you claim to know of any relevance.

If you need to have a hissy fit about it, then perhaps you should leave.

*Thanks for fixing your font situation, though.

Edited February 1, 2008 by kat

[Claymore]

With all due respect, I'm not impressed with your presumed monopoly on the facts. If you have some inside track that makes your version more reliable than anyone else's, please give us the background. Otherwise nothing you have to say about the case appears any more credible than anything I or anyone else has to say.

I don't know where you get the impression I have an 'unfailing belief in the honesty of witnesses in Pai'. I take it all with a grain of salt, lending most credence, however, to witnesses I know personally who have no ax to grind either way. You seem to have the opposite viewpoint, that all witnesses in Pai must be lying. My feeling is there's a lot of grey area between honest and dishonesty, with much testimony suspect not due to reasons of veracity but because no one was expecting a crime and thus no one was focusing solely on the events as they unfolded. In addition it was dark and most everyone around the scene can be safely assumed to have been in anything but a very alert state of mind. In all likelihood nothing we've heard so far can be considered 100% reliable -- aside from any assumed biases. It's a deductive fallacy to assume every witness in Pai is fudging their testimony in order to preserve tourism, etc. As I've mentioned before, many people living in Pai would like to see less, not more, tourism.

My apologies if I gave you the impression if I thought all the people in Pai were lying. That is certainly not the case. Essentially there are two sets of witnesses however from around the restaurant where the shooting took place. The Pai residents say Carly started it all. The out of town witnesses have a totally different story. The Pai version will have gone around Pai extensively. You r going to have to take my word for that I'm afraid

[Claymore]

BTW, back in Canada, the story is over. The sun came up again, the winter's fury continues and folks don't care. No different than if I was hit by a drunk driver and killed. The typical citizen only cares about life in his/her bubble. That's the reality.

I suppose your family might care

[Claymore]

Any change will have to come from within and those changes are happening, albeit slowly. Many of the old timers can tell you that it was worse in the 70's. So go on, here's your sopabox, get up and give a discourse on the backward Thai people and how they are so corrupt and primitive that they must be saved from themselves. Don't know if the response will be any different with the falangs than it was with the Thais.

As this thread has run its course for me, I sincerely hope that this thread helps you deal with your Thailand issues.

U seem to have hi-jacked this thread now claiming from no-where that it is a rant against 'backward Thai people'. It is not. Though people have railed against the local police.

Lets not hark back to the 70s. Many old people then say they never had it so good here. Tell me about it. I am not sure your personal attacks/ innuendoes against other members are appropriate btw.

[DavidLeeRoth]

just close this thread already! the story is dead, nothing is going to be resolved, and there is no new news, just insults.

[Andiamo]

I disagree, this thread should be kept alive so that this shooting is NOT forgotten or swept under the carpet and we can hear updates.

IME, too often, bad/criminal things are reported on TV and in the Thai Press and then they are not followed up.

Let's keep it in the open and in peoples' minds.

Thank you.

Edited February 1, 2008 by Andiamo

[farang prince]

I disagree, this thread should be kept alive so that this shooting is NOT forgotten or swept under the carpet and we can hear updates.

IME, too often, bad/criminal things are reported on TV and in the Thai Press and then they are not followed up.

Let's keep it in the open and in peoples' minds.

Thank you.

I would agree Andiamo. There will be the occasional update and there is value in keeping this thread open. I have no seen Danielle online for a while. Since she is related to Leo, I was hopeful that she might have more information about the autopsy conducted on him in Calgary. We also have not seen or heard about the toxicology report for both shooting victims and Sgt. Uthai. Eventually that report will have to come out, whether at trial or at a hearing to determine if Uthai can remain on the police force. I would also suggest that we periodically conduct a letter-writing campaign to the "Bangkok Post" and the "Nation" to keep this case on their radar screens. I would also ask for a little more decorum from some of the posters. No need to get personal here.

Edited February 1, 2008 by farang prince

[kat]

I saw Danielle online yesterday. I think they will be releasing more information, but in coordination with what is best for their case, and not necessarily just for media saturation.