Thai Airforce To Get Swedish Jet Fighters

[george]

Air Force to get Swedish jet fighters

BANGKOK: -- The cabinet has approved the procurement by the Royal Thai Air Force of six Swedish-made Gripen jet fighters with a cost of 19 billion baht.

Government spokesman Chaiya Yimwilai said the air force earlier planned to buy six US-made F-5E fighters but finally chose the Swedish jets for deployment as multi-role combat aircraft.

The package deal includes spare parts and flight training programmes.

-- TNA 2008-01-08

[meadish_sweetball]

It's been long in the making, this deal. Probably because of the coup. Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

Who doesn't remember Thaksin's creative suggestion of exchanging Thai chickens for Swedish jet fighters when meeting with Swedish then-prime minister Göran Persson a few years ago, during the height of the media bird flu hype?

[my friend I]

Could be a business opportunity for someone who can speak & read Swedish Thai & English

[funfun]

well they look really nice!!

[Lilawadee]

...nine teen BILLION baht...

Is that honestly one of Thailand's most urgent needs?

I'm frankly surprised at the Swedish government: It's STILL a military junta, brokering a deal for the military with public money. At the very least they could have waited until a democratic government AND elected parliament is in place to confirm the deal. What's the rush?

Aren't there some raised eyebrows in Sweden over this? Even the US government that everyone likes to criticize at every opportunity froze military relations after the coup: there's no big Cobra Gold games in Thailand this year. And while the political situation is still murky and chaotic, the Swedish government sees it fit to take 19 billion baht in Thai tax payer money approved by a military government?

Edited January 9, 2008 by Lilawadee

[geriatrickid]

It's been long in the making, this deal. Probably because of the coup. Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

I doubt that, as morality has never stopped Sweden's munitions exports before. The Swedish arms industry is a vital part of the national economy and is a profitable economic segment. Some of the most despotic of african nations have been equipped with Swedish manufactured arms. One of the largest consumers of Swedish armaments is the US military with many of the weapons destined for use in Iraq, a war which Sweden "opposes". Nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit hypocritical to wag a finger at the americans and facilitate weapons sales to them.

No doubt the aforementioned goes against the image that one would have of the "peace loving" Swedes. However, Sweden has a long history of getting around such niceties as morality over the past century. Whether it was providing the nazis with steel or the infamous Bofors scandal of the 80's, the Swedes know how to sell arms. They are good at it. They're the folks that mastered the dual use method of export and the use of intermediary destinations.

I think what you have here was that the delay was related to how much of a subsidy was given. (I believe that in keeping with the Swedish m.o., it won't appear as a subsidy but will appear as a form of "aid".) Nothing wrong with that, but what I think is a more accurate explanation. Believe it or not, the big ticket item American dealers are subject to alot more hurdles when it comes to sales to countries like Thailand, i.e. less likely to get assistance or export licenses due to politcal factors. Politics has never been an obstacle to the Swedish arms dealer.

[Hawkup2000]

I am swedish and have worked in "the business" for the most time of my life. The thread is old news (see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/lofiversion/...p/t148758.html). It does not open up any new positions for people who are able to read/talk swe-eng-thai. The deal were sealed some time ago. From what I have heard is the staff at both tak and korat airforcebases studying gripen thoroughly right as we speak. And yes, the swedish weapon industry have some bad history when it comes to dealing with guns. Google "boforsaffären" i. e. bofors india.

[meadish_sweetball]

It's been long in the making, this deal. Probably because of the coup. Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

I doubt that, as morality has never stopped Sweden's munitions exports before. The Swedish arms industry is a vital part of the national economy and is a profitable economic segment. Some of the most despotic of african nations have been equipped with Swedish manufactured arms. One of the largest consumers of Swedish armaments is the US military with many of the weapons destined for use in Iraq, a war which Sweden "opposes". Nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit hypocritical to wag a finger at the americans and facilitate weapons sales to them.

No doubt the aforementioned goes against the image that one would have of the "peace loving" Swedes. However, Sweden has a long history of getting around such niceties as morality over the past century. Whether it was providing the nazis with steel or the infamous Bofors scandal of the 80's, the Swedes know how to sell arms. They are good at it. They're the folks that mastered the dual use method of export and the use of intermediary destinations.

I think what you have here was that the delay was related to how much of a subsidy was given. (I believe that in keeping with the Swedish m.o., it won't appear as a subsidy but will appear as a form of "aid".) Nothing wrong with that, but what I think is a more accurate explanation. Believe it or not, the big ticket item American dealers are subject to alot more hurdles when it comes to sales to countries like Thailand, i.e. less likely to get assistance or export licenses due to politcal factors. Politics has never been an obstacle to the Swedish arms dealer.

I am aware of those occurrences, and would be far from denying various Swedish governments have been hypocritical. When it comes to securing business deals, I don't think Sweden is any more moral than other countries, so if you are arguing under the presumption that I was, then you were wasting your time.

What I was saying was that they could not morally be *seen* to sell weapons to a dictatorship.

It's about public image, not some actual inherent sense of higher morals than others.

I'm frankly surprised at the Swedish government: It's STILL a military junta, brokering a deal for the military with public money. At the very least they could have waited until a democratic government AND elected parliament is in place to confirm the deal. What's the rush?

Aren't there some raised eyebrows in Sweden over this?

Might be enough that democratic elections have been carried out.

There will be some raised eyebrows and protests for sure, but my hunch is the vast majority have a romantically positive image of Thailand, or are essentially indifferent or pragmatic, thinking that the job opportunities and cooperation with Thailand outweigh the moral issues.

[astral]

What happened to the Harrier aircraft they bought a few years back.

There were 6 of those and the last news I heard was that one was still flying.

The others had been canibalised to keep the remaining one in service..................

Surely it makes more sense to settle on a version and have a decent number,

rather than 6 of one and half a dozen of another??

[Phil Conners]

Madness. British Harriers, American F5, F16, F18 and now Swedish Gripens, what a hodge-podge to have to service

[Hawkup2000]

The swedish aircraft JAS/gripen (able to cope with both hunting, attack and surveillance) is to replace the F5 and the F16. Let's face it; both Eurofighter, Raptor and SU-37 are quite expensive. JAS is a good compromise. And the 4.0 is a really good.

[mrbojangles]

Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

I'm not too sure about the actual figures. But Gripen is made by SAAB and SAAB is made up of several joint venture companies. One being BAE SYSTEMS (UK) who own, i think, 20.5%. The remaining 79.5% is owned by institutional and private investors. I'm sure this would carry some weight in the decision to sell to Thailand. By how much i don't know but i'm sure it would carry some.

[sriracha john]

I am swedish and have worked in "the business" for the most time of my life. The thread is old news (see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/lofiversion/...p/t148758.html). It does not open up any new positions for people who are able to read/talk swe-eng-thai. The deal were sealed some time ago. From what I have heard is the staff at both tak and korat airforcebases studying gripen thoroughly right as we speak. And yes, the swedish weapon industry have some bad history when it comes to dealing with guns. Google "boforsaffären" i. e. bofors india.

Thank you for pointing out that these deals were initiated long before the coup, although that will take the wind out of lila's posting... might be worth pointing out as well that the planes they replace had their origins in 1959... so perhaps... just saying perhaps now, that the 48 year-old technology was due to be upgraded.

[sriracha john]

It's been long in the making, this deal. Probably because of the coup. Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

Who doesn't remember Thaksin's creative suggestion of exchanging Thai chickens for Swedish jet fighters when meeting with Swedish then-prime minister Göran Persson a few years ago, during the height of the media bird flu hype?

Indeed, not even the Russians would take a bite of Thaksin's cockamamie ideas...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=54674&hl=

Russian Su30's For Chickens

[BigSnake]

WHY???

[astral]

The swedish aircraft JAS/gripen (able to cope with both hunting, attack and surveillance) is to replace the F5 and the F16.

Let's face it; both Eurofighter, Raptor and SU-37 are quite expensive. JAS is a good compromise. And the 4.0 is a really good.

I am not sure any of us are in a position to argue with your statement.

But only 6 aircraft..........

Hardly enough to make up one flight, let alone a squadron?

The RTAF needs a defence policy, not a buy here and then buy there approach.

That is military lunacy.

[TAWP]

IIRC, it is a deal of 6+6 aircrafts.

[abdulrahman]

I am swedish and have worked in "the business" for the most time of my life. The thread is old news (see http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/lofiversion/...p/t148758.html). It does not open up any new positions for people who are able to read/talk swe-eng-thai. The deal were sealed some time ago. From what I have heard is the staff at both tak and korat airforcebases studying gripen thoroughly right as we speak. And yes, the swedish weapon industry have some bad history when it comes to dealing with guns. Google "boforsaffären" i. e. bofors india.

Thank you for pointing out that these deals were initiated long before the coup, although that will take the wind out of lila's posting... might be worth pointing out as well that the planes they replace had their origins in 1959... so perhaps... just saying perhaps now, that the 48 year-old technology was due to be upgraded.

Why does Thailand need a hodge-podge Aircraft?Why does the Royal Thai Navy need an Aircarrier?

Well,thousands of Admirals,Air Marshals,Full or subordinate Generals(Army)put to pastures would not help the national pride!

Not in Thailand,nor many other countries.

[DP25]

The Thai airforce also has 60 F-16s. 12 Gripens isn't much but they can always acquire more in the future.

[wintermute]

The Thai airforce also has 60 F-16s. 12 Gripens isn't much but they can always acquire more in the future.

There was news that 10 year old F-15 and F-16's have defects that require constant expertise to maintain. So basically the Thai air force have 60 high maintenance planes that have a lot of unforseen maintenance issues and are money pits and now they are taking on new aircraft. That's an awful lot of money to be blowing on a military that doesn't do much except shine their shoes and look pretty in front of the Thai press. For a country that seems so adverse to giving money to foreigners they sure as hel_l don't seem to shy away from it when it comes to military goods.

Heaven forbid if the Thai military ever got into a real conflict with one of its neighbors they'd learn the hard lesson that air power doesn't mean much when your ground forces are woefully undertrained and ill equipped.

[yeti]

So they will spend 19 billion bahts to buy 6 jets, so around 100 million US dollars a piece.

Poland bought theirs 70 million dollars a piece.

I guess some people are getting richer...

[wintermute]

So they will spend 19 billion bahts to buy 6 jets, so around 100 million US dollars a piece.

Poland bought theirs 70 million dollars a piece.

I guess some people are getting richer...

The only difference is Poland is a part of the EU and also NATO and has had a longstanding need for a defensive military if you look at history.

[Ricardo]

It's been long in the making, this deal. Probably because of the coup. Sweden could not morally be seen to sell jet fighters to a dictatorship.

Who doesn't remember Thaksin's creative suggestion of exchanging Thai chickens for Swedish jet fighters when meeting with Swedish then-prime minister Göran Persson a few years ago, during the height of the media bird flu hype?

Indeed, not even the Russians would take a bite of Thaksin's cockamamie ideas...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=54674&hl=

Russian Su30's For Chickens

WHY???

Because these were highly-trained Thai homing-chickens, of course.

[ParadiseLost]

Residents and vistors to Koh Phangan were treated to an aerial display today, by either an F-16 - or one of the new Gripen fighters. For roughly 15-30 minutes, there was a lone fighter flying low over the islands (low enough to see the lucky bugger inside ), he did a few fast fly-overs and at least one barrel roll at (what felt like) full thrust!

Personlly, I feel privilged to have witnessed such a display of incredible engineering and ferocious power! It is an amazing achievement for all mankind! I may be 'gushing', but ignoring the political/economical/environmental impact, to see these craft in action is awesome.

As a footnote, my wife mentioned that a member of the Royal family is known to hop into various aircraft when he is down Suratthani way, so perhaps it was a Royal treat!

[yeti]

So they will spend 19 billion bahts to buy 6 jets, so around 100 million US dollars a piece.

Poland bought theirs 70 million dollars a piece.

I guess some people are getting richer...

The only difference is Poland is a part of the EU and also NATO and has had a longstanding need for a defensive military if you look at history.

So being part of the EU and NATO would have gotten Poland a 30 million dollars discount on each plane?

[DP25]

Poland doesn't have any Gripens, they have Russian stuff and some f-16s, so they are getting no discount as they don't have the same planes. South Africa bought 28 Gripens for $2.2 billion, and the Thai's are getting 12 Gripens for $1.1, so I don't think they're paying that much more given that the South Africans signed their deal a few years ago. They get more than just the 12 Gripens as well, they get 2 radar aircraft and various training and investment packages.

Edited January 12, 2008 by DP25

[Johpa]

Heaven forbid if the Thai military ever got into a real conflict with one of its neighbors they'd learn the hard lesson that air power doesn't mean much when your ground forces are woefully undertrained and ill equipped.

Look, the Thai military exists for only one reason, and that is to control the civilian populace. There are no immediate or even near-term future threats from neighboring countries that would require high speed fighter jets (useless over tropical forest canopies) , not to mention aircraft carriers. But the western capitalist countries want Thai capital, profits generated in Thailand, placed under their control in western banks and so it is quite easy to lobby a few corrupt high ranking military leaders and politicians into having the government get involved in expensive purchases where the local participants are assured a nice percentage of the deal, again most of which will be deposited into western banks. And, as an added bonus, of course nothing is better than getting the government into your debt.

Chaiyo!

[thaigene2]

Heaven forbid if the Thai military ever got into a real conflict with one of its neighbors they'd learn the hard lesson that air power doesn't mean much when your ground forces are woefully undertrained and ill equipped.

Look, the Thai military exists for only one reason, and that is to control the civilian populace. There are no immediate or even near-term future threats from neighboring countries that would require high speed fighter jets (useless over tropical forest canopies) , not to mention aircraft carriers. But the western capitalist countries want Thai capital, profits generated in Thailand, placed under their control in western banks and so it is quite easy to lobby a few corrupt high ranking military leaders and politicians into having the government get involved in expensive purchases where the local participants are assured a nice percentage of the deal, again most of which will be deposited into western banks. And, as an added bonus, of course nothing is better than getting the government into your debt.

Chaiyo!

You're wrong. There are two, and that's reason number two. Reason number-one is to buy unnecessary military hardware and skim 20% frm the price. It's little different to building unnecessary roads and toll-ways and other infrastructural projects. I'm certain these projects are dreamed up by the consortium families who have come up with the malfeasance BEFORE the project is proposed. e.g it's already been worked out how it will work (how many cousins and sisters-in-laws companies will win the bid THEN the project is proposed).

[TAWP]

...but if the rebellion in the south spreads over into Malaysia and the escalation goes the way some people want, there will be a need for fighters. But that is for another thread...