Australian Aged Pension

[4MyEgo]

7 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/deeming/29656

 

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/age-pension/how-much-you-can-get/assets-test/assets#assetstestlimits

 

Thanks for the links, so if I understand it correctly, if I was to be receiving a parenting allowance, not sure what that is, so should I am assume that is something like Family A & B payments to go towards kids, if so, it would cancel out if my asset were over $605,000 ?

 

Not sure on that one because in their site (different link), it says for Family A & B payments have no assets test, only income tests.

 

The other thing is as I am married, I would assume that I would get A couple, 1 partner, eligible, combined threshold, (wife 21 years my junior), and the pension payment would reduce if my assets were over $605,000 ?

 

So confusing !!!

 

I get the deeming thing now thanks ????

 

 

Payment allowances and Parenting Payment

From 20 March 2020, your payments cancel if your assets are more than the limit for your situation.

Your situation	Homeowner	Non-homeowner
Single	$263,250	$473,750
A couple, combined	$394,500	$605,000
A couple, 1 partner eligible, combined	$394,500	$605,000

Full pension

From 20 March 2020, pensions reduce when your assets are more the limit for your situation.

Your situation	Homeowner	Non-homeowner
Single	$263,250	$473,750
A couple, combined	$394,500	$605,000
A couple, separated due to illness, combined	$394,500	$605,000
A couple, 1 partner eligible, combined	$394,500	$605,000

 

[rhodie]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

The other thing is as I am married, I would assume that I would get A couple, 1 partner, eligible, combined threshold, (wife 21 years my junior), and the pension payment would reduce if my assets were over $605,000 ?

https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/age-pension/faq/partner-not-of-pension-age  

 

This article has some examples that might help.

[AussieBob18]

Just found out something that I should share with others.  I have a contact at CLink and I have been advised that CLink has started cracking down hard on Aussies who travel overseas each year.  The website about who is entitled to get the pension reflects this in that the type of words and meanings associated with: 'Permanent and Australian and Resident' that have been 'fine tuned'.  What this means in practice is that if someone who lives in Australia travels overseas 'too much' they can be deemed to be 'not a permanent resident' when they travel overseas - and what that means is that they will lose their portability next time they return to live in Australia.  As unbelievable as it sounds, a person on the pension can be an Australian Resident and meet as the conditions, but if they travel overseas a lot they can be declared to be not a Permanent Resident - meaning that they are not permanently living in Australia.  

 

Examples: someone that spends 3-6+ months of each year staying in another country each year (the same one), can after a couple of years be declared to not be a permanent resident. Someone that travels extensively overseas each year for 3-6+ months at a time (different countries) after several years can be declared to not be a permanent resident.  

 

When I questioned if there was any hard and fast definitions, I was advised that (of course) there is none set.  They have started recently to impose these declarations on people, and as usual, the appeals processes will decide what the 'rules and precedents' are in each case.  In one case a couple that had been travelling overseas each year for 8 years, had their portability removed.  In another case a bloke that was spending 6 months of the year overseas in Europe (would not say where) and 6 months in Australia (family in both countries) had his portability removed.  I was advised that someone who goes overseas for a specific holiday with a start and end date (and advises CLink) will not have an issue - but if they do it every year and it is for 3+ months at a time - they can lose their portability.  Obviously, anyone that loses portability will regain it after staying in Australia for 2 years.  I was also advised that as long as the overseas trip is only for about 4-6 weeks at a time, then there will unlikely be an issue. It is after 6 weeks that pension payments when overseas reduce a little (energy supplement etc.), and this can be the trigger for a review. 

 

The driver behind all this of course is to reduce the ever growing costs of the pension, and the reality is that people who  travel overseas every year are easy targets for the Pollies to attack.   Why should we give welfare payments to people who are able to afford overseas holidays every year - that is the logic. There are limits on what they can do, particularly because under International Agreements Australia must pay pension 'welfare' to people who live overseas, who first received the pension when living in Australia and meet the requirements for portability.  Other than that, they can pretty much do whatever they want, because there is very little (if any) public support for those on the pension who travel overseas - each year or permanently.  

 

Anyone that was able to afford it and was going to maintain a premises in Australia and in Thailand, and was going to spend time each year in both locations, better think again. Clearly, the current harsh 'interpretations' of a permanent resident, means that someone has to choose between one and the other, otherwise one day they might find that their next trip backl overseas will have to be without the pension payments.  AND they will have to re-apply for the pension from scratch when they next return to Australia AND they will have to prove that they now intend to live 'permanently' in Australia AND they must not go overseas again for at least 2 years - unbelievable but true I am afraid.  

 

A couple had been travelling around Australia for over 14 months. CLink recently declared their house to no longer be their 'main residence' and it was therefore no longer exempt and the value was included in their Assets - their pension payments were severely reduced.  The matter is under appeal, but they will likely lose - the pension 'welfare' is not for people who live somewhere else while their million+ dollar house is lived in by their family members.  

 

[moojar]

There's a lot of jealousy out there over the "boomers" and their assets, has been for years.  Then there was a lot of chatter for a while over who is gonna pay for the COVID black hole the country's finances have fallen into too - "the whole lockdown thing is to save boomer lives, why should Millennials pay for it yadda yadda yadda".  The chatter has died down but the sentiment ain't going away. 

 

Was getting harder and harder to qualify for a pension anyway, what happens once the health crisis is over and we just have a trillion dollars or so of govt debt left to remind us? 

Edited June 25, 2020 by moojar

[scorecard]

On 6/25/2020 at 4:27 PM, moojar said:

There's a lot of jealousy out there over the "boomers" and their assets, has been for years.  Then there was a lot of chatter for a while over who is gonna pay for the COVID black hole the country's finances have fallen into too - "the whole lockdown thing is to save boomer lives, why should Millennials pay for it yadda yadda yadda".  The chatter has died down but the sentiment ain't going away. 

 

Was getting harder and harder to qualify for a pension anyway, what happens once the health crisis is over and we just have a trillion dollars or so of govt debt left to remind us? 

"..... the whole lockdown thing is to save boomer lives, why should Millennials pay for it yadda yadda yadda".  The chatter has died down but the sentiment ain't going away. "

 

As you mention this chatter has diminished and so it should. The vast majority of the Covid 19 era support payments have been related to much younger Australian who were losing their jobs, small business owners who were at risk of total close downs etc.  (I didn't use the word millennials because IMHO it's not appropriate to this scenario which involves a very broad age range.)

 

Old age pensioners get 2 x $750 support payments, total $1,500.

 

Very large numbers of employees/ business owners (not OAP pensioners) received/are receiving in total much larger numbers of support dollars and over several months. Families with small kids have been receiving quite big support to keep little kids at child centers, and for several months.

 

Further the massive costs also include strong attempts to stop/limit the spread of the virus so that It wasn't caught by Australians of all age groups. It does seem to be true that older folks are more likely to die from COVID 19 but many quickly decided to stay at home however many elders in old folks homes did get the virus and unfortunately too many died.

 

But also true that much younger working folks do catch the virus and can end up in hospital for many days (all paid for by government budgets).

 

 

[4MyEgo]

On 6/25/2020 at 3:51 PM, AussieBob18 said:

Just found out something that I should share with others.  I have a contact at CLink and I have been advised that CLink has started cracking down hard on Aussies who travel overseas each year.  The website about who is entitled to get the pension reflects this in that the type of words and meanings associated with: 'Permanent and Australian and Resident' that have been 'fine tuned'.  What this means in practice is that if someone who lives in Australia travels overseas 'too much' they can be deemed to be 'not a permanent resident' when they travel overseas - and what that means is that they will lose their portability next time they return to live in Australia.  As unbelievable as it sounds, a person on the pension can be an Australian Resident and meet as the conditions, but if they travel overseas a lot they can be declared to be not a Permanent Resident - meaning that they are not permanently living in Australia.  

 

Examples: someone that spends 3-6+ months of each year staying in another country each year (the same one), can after a couple of years be declared to not be a permanent resident. Someone that travels extensively overseas each year for 3-6+ months at a time (different countries) after several years can be declared to not be a permanent resident.  

 

When I questioned if there was any hard and fast definitions, I was advised that (of course) there is none set.  They have started recently to impose these declarations on people, and as usual, the appeals processes will decide what the 'rules and precedents' are in each case.  In one case a couple that had been travelling overseas each year for 8 years, had their portability removed.  In another case a bloke that was spending 6 months of the year overseas in Europe (would not say where) and 6 months in Australia (family in both countries) had his portability removed.  I was advised that someone who goes overseas for a specific holiday with a start and end date (and advises CLink) will not have an issue - but if they do it every year and it is for 3+ months at a time - they can lose their portability.  Obviously, anyone that loses portability will regain it after staying in Australia for 2 years.  I was also advised that as long as the overseas trip is only for about 4-6 weeks at a time, then there will unlikely be an issue. It is after 6 weeks that pension payments when overseas reduce a little (energy supplement etc.), and this can be the trigger for a review. 

 

The driver behind all this of course is to reduce the ever growing costs of the pension, and the reality is that people who  travel overseas every year are easy targets for the Pollies to attack.   Why should we give welfare payments to people who are able to afford overseas holidays every year - that is the logic. There are limits on what they can do, particularly because under International Agreements Australia must pay pension 'welfare' to people who live overseas, who first received the pension when living in Australia and meet the requirements for portability.  Other than that, they can pretty much do whatever they want, because there is very little (if any) public support for those on the pension who travel overseas - each year or permanently.  

 

Anyone that was able to afford it and was going to maintain a premises in Australia and in Thailand, and was going to spend time each year in both locations, better think again. Clearly, the current harsh 'interpretations' of a permanent resident, means that someone has to choose between one and the other, otherwise one day they might find that their next trip backl overseas will have to be without the pension payments.  AND they will have to re-apply for the pension from scratch when they next return to Australia AND they will have to prove that they now intend to live 'permanently' in Australia AND they must not go overseas again for at least 2 years - unbelievable but true I am afraid.  

 

A couple had been travelling around Australia for over 14 months. CLink recently declared their house to no longer be their 'main residence' and it was therefore no longer exempt and the value was included in their Assets - their pension payments were severely reduced.  The matter is under appeal, but they will likely lose - the pension 'welfare' is not for people who live somewhere else while their million+ dollar house is lived in by their family members.  

 

I appreciate what you are saying, however, until the legislation is changed to put a stop on pension portability, Centerlink has no right to stop payments if you travel overseas, whether it is indefinitely or for a holiday, excluding reducing the supplements payments, and if they do stop payments, then the appeals process is there for a reason as inconvenient as it would be to have to haul a-ss to get back to Oz to set it straight again.

 

Who knows, this might be in the process, but the legislation will have to be changed first, but anyone who has always planned on living only off of the pension overseas has left themselves wide open, as we know governments change policies all of the time, and if they do change the legislation, their will be a hell of a lot of expats hauling their a-ss-es back to Oz disgruntled I am afraid to say, fortunately for me, I learned a long time ago to only depend on me and not government bureaucrats (for a nicer word) who only look out for themselves.  

 

If this ever eventuated, it wouldn't surprise me as it would save them a s-h-i-t load of pension money going overseas to expats and they would be banking on the numbers staying away from Oz and losing the pension because they might have other means in their established abodes, but doubt they really know how many pensioners overseas don't have any other source of income and would have to return to a tougher life in Oz.

Edited July 17, 2020 by 4MyEgo

[AussieBob18]

On 7/17/2020 at 4:44 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I appreciate what you are saying, however, until the legislation is changed to put a stop on pension portability, Centerlink has no right to stop payments if you travel overseas, whether it is indefinitely or for a holiday, excluding reducing the supplements payments, and if they do stop payments, then the appeals process is there for a reason as inconvenient as it would be to have to haul a-ss to get back to Oz to set it straight again.

 

Who knows, this might be in the process, but the legislation will have to be changed first, but anyone who has always planned on living only off of the pension overseas has left themselves wide open, as we know governments change policies all of the time, and if they do change the legislation, their will be a hell of a lot of expats hauling their a-ss-es back to Oz disgruntled I am afraid to say, fortunately for me, I learned a long time ago to only depend on me and not government bureaucrats (for a nicer word) who only look out for themselves.  

 

If this ever eventuated, it wouldn't surprise me as it would save them a s-h-i-t load of pension money going overseas to expats and they would be banking on the numbers staying away from Oz and losing the pension because they might have other means in their established abodes, but doubt they really know how many pensioners overseas don't have any other source of income and would have to return to a tougher life in Oz.

Perhaps I was not clear - what CLink can do, and are doing more and more, is stopping eligibility for portability - which they can do - for those living in Australia and coming and going overseas a lot, but not permanently moving overseas.  Portability is not permanent once granted - it can be removed for someone who resides in Australia but does not meet the 'permanent resident' requirements.  The eligibilty for portability is based upon 'residence', and whether a person is 'resident' or not is determined by CLink.  CLink cannot stop anyone living/residing in Australia from getting the pension if they meet all the requirements. But Clink can stop anyone who is going overseas from being eligible for portability, by changing their permanent residence eligibility.

 

The elevent SS ACT and the sections involved are listed at this site:  

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/international/policy/portability-of-australian-income-support-payments

 

I believed the CLink person who advised me, but I also checked it out as as well. 

It is clear that they have re-written parts of the IMO the words worth noting in '3.1.1.10 Residence requirements' are these:

SSAct section 7(3) lists the factors to be taken into account when deciding whether a person is residing in Australia. These are:

1. the frequency and duration of the person's travel outside Australia
2. the nature of the accommodation used by the person in Australia
3. the nature and extent of the family relationships the person has in Australia
4. the nature and extent of the person's employment, business or financial ties in Australia
5. the nature and extent of the person's assets located in Australia, and
6. any other matter relevant to determining whether the person intends to remain permanently in Australia.

And these:  ...... if a person regularly spends more than 6 months a year outside Australia, then their residence in Australia is questionable.

 

These rules are not written so that they specifically relate to anyone on the age pension travelling overseas a lot - especially to the same other country.  But CLink are using their interpretation of the ACT to stop portability for those age pensioners having lots of overseas holidays and getting the pension while they are on holidays overseas. And for someone like myself that was intending to live in both Australia and another country, CLink has put a stop to that.

 

This is not an issue for someone that lives permanently in Australia when they get the age pension, and then goes overseas to live permanently (returning for occasional visits).  This is also not an issue for someone that has returned to Australia to get the age pension, and after serving out their 2 years waitin period, then later goes overseas to live permanently (returning for occasional visits).  But it is a big issue for somone on the age pension who lives in Australia, but who also stays overseas for long periods of time.

 

What CLink can do is declare that someone is not a 'permanent resident', because of excessive overseas travel and any other matter they deem appropriate.  If CLink determine that someone is no longer a 'permanent rersident' that does not mean they lose pension payments if they are overseas. It means that they lose portability when they next come back to Australia, and they have to serve out a 2 year waiting period to get portability back again. And unless that person makes it totally clear that they never intend to again stay in an overseas country (words not enough) they may not be granted portability again. Portability is for those that decide to go an live somewhere else - once.

 

IMO the ACT has been changed deliberately to save a few pennies on this matter that affects me and several other related circumstances. The SS Act was definitely not that 'tough' when I was first researching age pension and portability issues 10 years ago.  And I noticed that the portability section was last updated in August 2019. That date fits with what that guy at CLink told me - they srated cracking down in this area late last year.

 

You are right saying that they have no real idea how mnany age pensioners living overseas don't have any other source of income and would have to return to Aust if it was no longer paid when overseas.  But anecdotal evidence from a Govt study done about 10 years ago indicates that a large percentage would return if overseas payments were stopped. But Intenational SS Agreements precludes them stopping overseas payments - but it doesnt stop them being bastards on the eligibility rules.

 

There was a study in about 2008-2010 (forget when) that showed clearly that people on the age pension that live overseas, have a net positive affect on the Australian Budget, and this included the costs of those that return late in life. This is why countries like Sweden tax their overseas ensioners a lot less than they do those living in Sweden, and I believe this is the case in many EU countries. In Aust the report was buried (I was in Canb at the time) because it did not show what they wanted it to show - but in Sweden they openly give benefits to those pensioners who are living overseas and are thus costing a lot less to maintain than those in the country.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

This is not an issue for someone that lives permanently in Australia when they get the age pension, and then goes overseas to live permanently (returning for occasional visits).  This is also not an issue for someone that has returned to Australia to get the age pension, and after serving out their 2 years waitin period, then later goes overseas to live permanently (returning for occasional visits).  But it is a big issue for somone on the age pension who lives in Australia, but who also stays overseas for long periods of time.

 

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

What CLink can do is declare that someone is not a 'permanent resident', because of excessive overseas travel and any other matter they deem appropriate.  If CLink determine that someone is no longer a 'permanent rersident' that does not mean they lose pension payments if they are overseas. It means that they lose portability when they next come back to Australia, and they have to serve out a 2 year waiting period to get portability back again. And unless that person makes it totally clear that they never intend to again stay in an overseas country (words not enough) they may not be granted portability again. Portability is for those that decide to go an live somewhere else - once.

Sorry, but one contradicts the other, I just don't get what your saying, e.g. on one hand your saying, if you are within Australia and reach the OAP age, and qualify, even for those who came back and did their 2 year wait, you get portability, but on the other, your saying if you come back to Australia you can lose portability, it just doesn't make sense, I mean what are you supposed to do, stay out of Australia to keep portability, see where I am going with this ?

Edited July 26, 2020 by 4MyEgo

[UncleMhee]

@AussieBob18 your Centrelink contact is tripping on tripe. 

Current portability rules by payment type

The Department’s Social Security Guide sets out the general portability rules and current portability provisions for individual social security payments and benefits. This information is reviewed and updated regularly to reflect portability policy changes. The Portability Table can be found in the Social Security Guide at Topic 7.1.2.20.

Aged Pension has unlimited portability that is proportionalized after 26 weeks to suit your AWLR. To continue receiving full pay you must have been a resident for 35 years from aged 16 to pension age.

 

[AussieBob18]

21 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Sorry, but one contradicts the other, I just don't get what your saying, e.g. on one hand your saying, if you are within Australia and reach the OAP age, and qualify, even for those who came back and did their 2 year wait, you get portability, but on the other, your saying if you come back to Australia you can lose portability, it just doesn't make sense, I mean what are you supposed to do, stay out of Australia to keep portability, see where I am going with this ?

No contradiction - but I understand your confusion - let me elaborate some more and maybe this time make it clearer.

 

Firstly, lets assume you know what portability is and how to be eligible for it.

Ok - someone with portability who lives in Australia, travels overseas for an extended holiday 6-7+ months.  Probably not going to be a problem. Maybe.

Then they do it again the following year.  This could be a problem - depends on how the 'delegate' views their case.

Then they do it again the following year. They definitely have a problem now - the delegate will take action for sure.

 

And when the CLink delegate takes action, what that action will be is that they will be deem that person to no longer be a permanent resident of Australia.

Do they lose the pension while away? No.  Will they be paid the pension when they return? Yes.

While they are overseas they will continue to be paid the pension, because they had portability when they left.

But when they return to Australia, then they will be no longer eligable for portability because they are no longer a permanent resident.

Next time they leave Australia (appeals aside) they will not be eligible to receive the pension because they have lost their portability.

 

Portability is indefinite for someone on the pension who is eligible, who moves overseas to live.

They can return for visits of course, but only for short periods and for a reason ( I believe that up to 4-5 weeks is fine).

 

Portability is not 'repeatable' for someone on the pension who is repeatably taking extensive holidays overseas - case by case determination. 

Portability is not 'repeatable' for someone on the pension who is living in both Austraia and another country - absolutely not.

 

I hope that has made it clearer.

 

[AussieBob18]

21 hours ago, UncleMhee said:

@AussieBob18 your Centrelink contact is tripping on tripe. 

Current portability rules by payment type

The Department’s Social Security Guide sets out the general portability rules and current portability provisions for individual social security payments and benefits. This information is reviewed and updated regularly to reflect portability policy changes. The Portability Table can be found in the Social Security Guide at Topic 7.1.2.20.

Aged Pension has unlimited portability that is proportionalized after 26 weeks to suit your AWLR. To continue receiving full pay you must have been a resident for 35 years from aged 16 to pension age.

See my last response. 

It is unlimited if you leave Australia and live in another country permanently.

It is not unlimited if you still reside in Australia and visit/live in another country a lot.

[rhodie]

2 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

See my last response. 

It is unlimited if you leave Australia and live in another country permanently.

It is not unlimited if you still reside in Australia and visit/live in another country a lot.

Sorry but I know guys who return to Australia every 6 months to keep their payments at 35/35 because they don't have 35 years in Australia from 16 yo and they do not have a problem. Know of at least 3. Sometimes only return for a week. And I know of many others who return on and off. This has never been a problem and I have never heard of this on any other forum.

[4MyEgo]

13 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Portability is indefinite for someone on the pension who is eligible, who moves overseas to live.

They can return for visits of course, but only for short periods and for a reason ( I believe that up to 4-5 weeks is fine).

Ok, thanks for explaining that, but it still is contradicting, not your explanation, but Centrelink stopping your portability, e.g. on one hand you're saying that Centrelink is saying, if your living overseas after you have qualified for the OAP we will keep paying you, but only if you reside overseas, but if you return on a say 6 months in Oz and 6 months overseas we will stop your portability as you are a resident of Australia and portability is only for expats, that is crazy, but similar to how other welfare payments work, i.e. once outside the country for more than 6 weeks, they cut payments to your account, some payments as soon as you exit from what I have read.

 

I wonder if the left knows what the right is doing, e.g. yes Joe so you went to Thailand and lived there for 6 months this year and then you came back and you lived here for 6 months, yeh we understand but portability has been cancelled because last year you did the same and the year before the same again, so portability is cancelled, but we will still pay your pension in your account in Oz, I mean how do they stop you from sending money overseas if they are still paying you into your account, even if they withhold your payments till you return, as you say they only cancel portability, once they pay you whether its back payments or continued payments every fortnight, how do they stop you from sending money overseas for when you next go overseas, just doesn't make sense to me. 

[JWRC]

I have been through this and jumped all the hurdles. My best advice is when you apply for the pension, make sure you don;t use the word "living" example (Q) where have you been living (A) I haven't been living anywhere, I have been travelling in Asia.      (Q) Where have you been for the last 10 months  (A) I have been on an extended holiday, I haven't been living anywhere. and so on and so forth. The word "living" saw my pension application refused, then I had to appeal and really had to use all my wits to get the situation turned around, it was touch and go for a while, all because of one word, they actually told me where I went wrong that's how I know it was the use of this word.

[AussieBob18]

23 hours ago, rhodie said:

Sorry but I know guys who return to Australia every 6 months to keep their payments at 35/35 because they don't have 35 years in Australia from 16 yo and they do not have a problem. Know of at least 3. Sometimes only return for a week. And I know of many others who return on and off. This has never been a problem and I have never heard of this on any other forum.

I am not talking about those that return now and then for short periods - that will never be a problem. I am talking about anyone who lives in Australia AND resides/lives in another country ASND spends a lot of time in that other country - being in my case Thailand - AND returns to Australia every year for extensive periods - AND continues to do that every year (someone who lives in Australia AND lives in another country).  Up until the end of last year that was OK (well it was not looked at too harshly)  - but I have been advised by CLink that now it aint and they are checking into people doing it.

 

Are the Aussies you mention doing that? Or are they living overseas and visit Australia.  Do they actually have a home etc. in Australia. If they do live in Australia and are spending 6 months a year overseas on the pension, then PM me with their names and contact details - they need to know.

 

[AussieBob18]

12 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Ok, thanks for explaining that, but it still is contradicting, not your explanation, but Centrelink stopping your portability, e.g. on one hand you're saying that Centrelink is saying, if your living overseas after you have qualified for the OAP we will keep paying you, but only if you reside overseas, but if you return on a say 6 months in Oz and 6 months overseas we will stop your portability as you are a resident of Australia and portability is only for expats, that is crazy, but similar to how other welfare payments work, i.e. once outside the country for more than 6 weeks, they cut payments to your account, some payments as soon as you exit from what I have read.

 

I wonder if the left knows what the right is doing, e.g. yes Joe so you went to Thailand and lived there for 6 months this year and then you came back and you lived here for 6 months, yeh we understand but portability has been cancelled because last year you did the same and the year before the same again, so portability is cancelled, but we will still pay your pension in your account in Oz, I mean how do they stop you from sending money overseas if they are still paying you into your account, even if they withhold your payments till you return, as you say they only cancel portability, once they pay you whether its back payments or continued payments every fortnight, how do they stop you from sending money overseas for when you next go overseas, just doesn't make sense to me. 

Yep - it sounds all wrong, and it is, but that is what they are doing since end 2019. Think of it this way - you cannot live in Australia and get the pension, and also live in another country.  It is one or the other - you cannot live in both.  

 

Much more to it than what you said.  If you lose portability and decide to go overseas anyway, which of course you can do, they will cease pension payments the day you leave. But if you do not return within 6 weeks, they will then also cancel the pension and you will have to reapply when you do return.  And when you return and reapply for the pension, you will have to prove that you intend to live in Aust permanently, and if it is approved you will have to wait at least 2 years before you can then be approved for portability.  Being approved for portability the second time around will not be a walk in the park - you will need to give a very good reason why you want to change where you live again - it is achievable (MIL cancer etc.) but it is a big pain. Try to do it a third time and you are a dead fish trying to fly.

 

Yes the whole thing is stupid.  Someone who has lived in Australia for over 10 years can apply for and get the pension, and then straight away they can leave to live in another country and take the pension payments with them forever (part or full).  BUT someone who has lived for over 10 years, but leaves Australia to live in another country 1 week before pension age, cannot apply for the age pension when they are overseas - AND if they want to get the pension then they must return to Aust and setup home and prove they intend to stay permanently, before they will get the pension - AND they will have to wait at least 2 years before they can get portability approved to live in another country and keep the pension.  It is all just ridiculous - all because they are trying to reduce the costs of the pension payments in the Budget. IMO are there are far better and fairer ways to reduce Budget costs - refugee welfare is one just for a start.

 

[AussieBob18]

12 hours ago, JWRC said:

I have been through this and jumped all the hurdles. My best advice is when you apply for the pension, make sure you don;t use the word "living" example (Q) where have you been living (A) I haven't been living anywhere, I have been travelling in Asia.      (Q) Where have you been for the last 10 months  (A) I have been on an extended holiday, I haven't been living anywhere. and so on and so forth. The word "living" saw my pension application refused, then I had to appeal and really had to use all my wits to get the situation turned around, it was touch and go for a while, all because of one word, they actually told me where I went wrong that's how I know it was the use of this word.

Glad to hear you got through it and won out - and thanks for showing how bad CLink can be.  It is only through forums like this that people can learn what is going on - and what to do and what not to do.  Ring and ask CLink anything and they will ask what you are doing and going to do - and they will record it - but they will not answer hypotheticals.

 

For those looking to return to Aust and apply for pension in future (and serve out the 2 years), a good thing to do is to visit other countries - all your passport entries and exists are recorded - and they are provided to CLink when you apply for the pension.  Likewise keep a mental 'record' of all the different places you stay/live at when overseas (nudge nudge wink wink) - never stay longer than about 6 months in any one location/city - OK to leave and come back again later - and obviously always rent.  There are no records available to CLink about exactly where you live in a country like Thailand - only ins and outs - unless arrested etc.  Stay in one location for a long period and they will ask if you lived there - so best not to do that in your memory 'record' - and as the OP said, never use the word 'lived' always say 'stayed'. 

 

[4MyEgo]

12 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

Think of it this way - you cannot live in Australia and get the pension, and also live in another country.  It is one or the other - you cannot live in both.  

Recently we thought of returning as there were a lot of factors at hand, but we put that on hold for now as no one is going nowhere with Covid.

 

There is another alternative, i.e. return in 5 and a half years time, wait for the 2 years period, apply at age 67 and 6 months, and then I could make it portable, but with two kids still at school, I don't think it would be wise to up root them again, because if I returned, it would be with the family as we are a tight knit one. 

 

One of the kids would be 11 and the other 16 so they would complete school in Oz, the others well they would have completed school and will be adults so it will be up to them if they want to come with us or stay here in Thailand.

 

I suppose I could return when I am 67 and after 6 months apply for it as I would have re-established my residency by then and wouldn't be looking for portability, again, as the kids would then be 13 and 18 so guess one would complete high school here and the other in Oz.

 

The other alternative is to stay here and not apply for the OAP as it would probably not even cover the rent back in Oz, unless we move to a different state or into the country, lots to chew over, but for the time being we are content here and I have enough to keep us going till I reach a century....lol, will just have to see how things pan out over the years I guess, things can change suddenly, but with kids involved, it's not an easy choice, that said, I think just before pension age would be the way to go and remain in Oz for the kids to have a better future, and the pension would contribute towards the rent, unless I purchased something, like I said, a lot to chew over.

Edited July 29, 2020 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

On 7/26/2020 at 11:57 PM, UncleMhee said:

@AussieBob18 your Centrelink contact is tripping on tripe. 

Current portability rules by payment type

The Department’s Social Security Guide sets out the general portability rules and current portability provisions for individual social security payments and benefits. This information is reviewed and updated regularly to reflect portability policy changes. The Portability Table can be found in the Social Security Guide at Topic 7.1.2.20.

Aged Pension has unlimited portability that is proportionalized after 26 weeks to suit your AWLR. To continue receiving full pay you must have been a resident for 35 years from aged 16 to pension age.

 

I think what this is saying is that as long as you have lived in Australia as a resident for 35 years, your good to go and have portability, that said, for us expats who have the 35 years we need to do the 2 years for portability.

 

I think AussieBob18 was possibly referring to a possible late change in 2019 where it might affect those who don't have the 35 years ?

 

@AussieBob18  Care to comment on this ?

[AussieBob18]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Recently we thought of returning as there were a lot of factors at hand, but we put that on hold for now as no one is going nowhere with Covid.

 

There is another alternative, i.e. return in 5 and a half years time, wait for the 2 years period, apply at age 67 and 6 months, and then I could make it portable, but with two kids still at school, I don't think it would be wise to up root them again, because if I returned, it would be with the family as we are a tight knit one. 

 

One of the kids would be 11 and the other 16 so they would complete school in Oz, the others well they would have completed school and will be adults so it will be up to them if they want to come with us or stay here in Thailand.

 

I suppose I could return when I am 67 and after 6 months apply for it as I would have re-established my residency by then and wouldn't be looking for portability, again, as the kids would then be 13 and 18 so guess one would complete high school here and the other in Oz.

 

The other alternative is to stay here and not apply for the OAP as it would probably not even cover the rent back in Oz, unless we move to a different state or into the country, lots to chew over, but for the time being we are content here and I have enough to keep us going till I reach a century....lol, will just have to see how things pan out over the years I guess, things can change suddenly, but with kids involved, it's not an easy choice, that said, I think just before pension age would be the way to go and remain in Oz for the kids to have a better future, and the pension would contribute towards the rent, unless I purchased something, like I said, a lot to chew over.

Yeh - there is a lot to think about for you and the family, and with Covid there is no hurry.

 

Some info to keep in mind for later.

You can apply for the age pension once you reside in Australia - if accepted it will be backdated to application date (approval takes about 3 months).

If you leave Thailand and comeback to Australia to live - saying you wanted to come back earlier but knew you wouldnt get a job and newstart (jobseeker) payments would not be enough to live on - then you can live on the pension - it is enough, especially with rental support is given and lots of free or reduced costs for stuff (especially in Qld).  Then of course after 2.5+ years you can say it hasnt worked out and you tell them you have decided to try overseas again - not sure where - can I get portability?

The pension over 10 years is worth a lot of money in Thailand.  Over 20 years it is worth a hell of a lot.  Worth it IMO.

If you are officially married and Aust knows about the marriage and your kids, then you will not have it so easy.

Applying for migrant for wife and kids will not be easy - even just for the wife it will be an issue.

But it is all a long way off as you say - things change and will be then - as you said, sit tight and wait/think.

 

[rhodie]

16 hours ago, AussieBob18 said:

I am not talking about those that return now and then for short periods - that will never be a problem. I am talking about anyone who lives in Australia AND resides/lives in another country ASND spends a lot of time in that other country - being in my case Thailand - AND returns to Australia every year for extensive periods - AND continues to do that every year (someone who lives in Australia AND lives in another country).  Up until the end of last year that was OK (well it was not looked at too harshly)  - but I have been advised by CLink that now it aint and they are checking into people doing it.

 

Are the Aussies you mention doing that? Or are they living overseas and visit Australia.  Do they actually have a home etc. in Australia. If they do live in Australia and are spending 6 months a year overseas on the pension, then PM me with their names and contact details - they need to know.

 

You are talking about a change late in 2019. Since then there has been very little travel because of Covid so I am not sure who it could have affected. Do you actually know anyone who has had this rule applied to them?

[AussieBob18]

3 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I think what this is saying is that as long as you have lived in Australia as a resident for 35 years, your good to go and have portability, that said, for us expats who have the 35 years we need to do the 2 years for portability.

I think AussieBob18 was possibly referring to a possible late change in 2019 where it might affect those who don't have the 35 years ?

 

@AussieBob18  Care to comment on this ?

Yeh mate - that person probably only read part of the post or didnt understand. It is a complex issue to understand - and even harder to say the right words to describe it - I think I have got it across now, but just to reiterate:

 

The 2 years for portability is applicabe for anyone who lives overseas and then returns to Australia to claim the pension.

You must have minimum 10 years to get portability, but it doesnt matter how long you have lived in Aust in the past, if you were living overseas before applying for the pension - you must wait 2 years minimum to get portability (no exceptions).

This was introduced years ago to stop those who had lived for more than 10 years in the 60s/70s, coming back to Aust and then claiming the pension, and then immediately leaving and taking the pension payments back with them.  There was a lot of people in Europe (Greece, Italy especially) who did this and there are still many getting the part-pension paid - if they ever return to Aust the payments will cease but they have no intentions to do that.

 

What 'changed' in late 2019 is that they tightened up the eligibility for portability in terms of 'residence'. Now anyone to be approved for portability, must be a 'permanent resident' - that definition has been expended and refined.  A permanent resident is not someone that has a home in Australia, and also has a home or lives in another country.  Someone that is overseas for any extended period and then returns to their home in Australia, can be deemed to be not a 'permanent resident' and therefore they have to wait 2 years to get portability approved - which will be hard to get if there is any chance they believe you are only going overseas for 6 months or so, and will then be coming back again. Portability is only for those moving to live overseas - it is not for extensive 'holidays' overseas. It never really was, but now they are enforcing what they didnt really enforce before.  Too many people have been living in both Australia and another country, and getting the pension both while living in Aust and while living in another country. The CLink contact advised of one couple that had been doing that for several years, and when they came back to Aust in early 2020 they were told they had lost portability and would have to wait a minimum of 2 years and would then have to apply for portability again.

 

[AussieBob18]

12 minutes ago, rhodie said:

You are talking about a change late in 2019. Since then there has been very little travel because of Covid so I am not sure who it could have affected. Do you actually know anyone who has had this rule applied to them?

Dont know them - but see earlier post - that couple return before the Covid lockdown.  I myself was in Thailand and returned before the lockdown.  The CLink guy was very forward and honest about things - many things - and I have no reason to doubt him.  But as you say - not a lot happening now - and I do intend to follow up with CLink later.  But right now, my intention to live in both Aust and Thailand is gone - unless CLink states clearly (and in writing) that I can do that and I will be OK in terms of ongoing pension payment entitlements.  The big change in summary is that being a 'resdient' is not enough to keep payments when overseas, other than for holidays/reasons or if you move permanently, you have to be a 'permanent resident' which means you cannot also reside in another country.  

I know of several Expats overseas that have lost their Aust resident status - the fact that they are not a legal resident in the country they are 'visiting' long term, and never can be a legal resident, is irrelevent to ATO and CLink. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by AussieBob18

[simple1]

On 7/27/2020 at 9:11 PM, AussieBob18 said:

No contradiction - but I understand your confusion - let me elaborate some more and maybe this time make it clearer.

 

Firstly, lets assume you know what portability is and how to be eligible for it.

Ok - someone with portability who lives in Australia, travels overseas for an extended holiday 6-7+ months.  Probably not going to be a problem. Maybe.

Then they do it again the following year.  This could be a problem - depends on how the 'delegate' views their case.

Then they do it again the following year. They definitely have a problem now - the delegate will take action for sure.

 

And when the CLink delegate takes action, what that action will be is that they will be deem that person to no longer be a permanent resident of Australia.

Do they lose the pension while away? No.  Will they be paid the pension when they return? Yes.

While they are overseas they will continue to be paid the pension, because they had portability when they left.

But when they return to Australia, then they will be no longer eligable for portability because they are no longer a permanent resident.

Next time they leave Australia (appeals aside) they will not be eligible to receive the pension because they have lost their portability.

 

Portability is indefinite for someone on the pension who is eligible, who moves overseas to live.

They can return for visits of course, but only for short periods and for a reason ( I believe that up to 4-5 weeks is fine).

 

Portability is not 'repeatable' for someone on the pension who is repeatably taking extensive holidays overseas - case by case determination. 

Portability is not 'repeatable' for someone on the pension who is living in both Austraia and another country - absolutely not.

 

I hope that has made it clearer.

 

A few comments...

 

If your payments can continue while you’re outside Australia and you intend to be away for:

• less than 12 months, we'll continue to pay your payment into your Australian bank account every 2 weeks

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/payments-while-outside-australia/31226

 

If a person is planning to regularly leave Australia for extended periods, personally I would contact Centrelink Age Pension phone number to give them a heads up to ascertain what payment restrictions, if any, would apply, note to file and so on. e.g. you have funds in Superannuation and planning annual extended overseas trips / staying with friends in Thailand erc

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

If you leave Thailand and comeback to Australia to live - saying you wanted to come back earlier but knew you wouldnt get a job and newstart (jobseeker) payments would not be enough to live on - then you can live on the pension - it is enough, especially with rental support is given and lots of free or reduced costs for stuff (especially in Qld).

I am from Sydney and I know the pension is around $460 per week or $920 per fortnight, excluding rental assistance etc etc etc, trust me when I say the pension wouldn't be enough to cover the rent in Sydney, i.e. unless I want to live in a shoe box. Further our, rural or somewhere interstate would have to be the preferred. You see when I left Sydney 5 years ago, we, i.e. my wife and two daughter were living in an internal area of 80 square metres in a 3 bedroom villa, with a single garage and courtyard, which took the total area to 180 square metres. We now live in a house with an internal area of 320 square metres, plus an 80 square metre external covered area and the 20 square metre carport, so going back to an 80 square metre villa which I did lease for 6 months would cost us $550 per week and is not going to happen, because once you go up, you don't come back IMO, and the pension doesn't entice me that much, but when the time comes and it's on the table, and we do return it will be for the kids future, so the rental would have to be special, I mean I have rented some short term rentals in medium rise apartment buildings with shopping centres under when returning to Sydney which would suite, however we would be talking $600-$700 per week as they are private and offer everything one needs so it would me topping up the difference of $150-$200 a week, remembering I have a family with me, not just me, 6 in total, 4 at the least if the boys stay in Thailand.  

 

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

If you are officially married and Aust knows about the marriage and your kids, then you will not have it so easy.

This part I totally don't understand, married the wife in 2007 in Sydney, two girls in 2009 and 2014 and she has two Thai boys which could apply for a Child 101 Visa up to ages 25 if studying.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, AussieBob18 said:

Too many people have been living in both Australia and another country, and getting the pension both while living in Aust and while living in another country.

I can see that they are aligning this up with other welfare payments that stop once a person exits the country, e.g. family A & B payments, Newstart etc etc, however if they are still allowing portability for those that are moving overseas for good and those that are already living overseas, all and good, just means those that return every 6 months or so will have to rethink what they want to do, otherwise lose portability.

[AussieBob18]

25 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I can see that they are aligning this up with other welfare payments that stop once a person exits the country, e.g. family A & B payments, Newstart etc etc, however if they are still allowing portability for those that are moving overseas for good and those that are already living overseas, all and good, just means those that return every 6 months or so will have to rethink what they want to do, otherwise lose portability.

Yep - that is it in a nutshell. 

[AussieBob18]

52 minutes ago, simple1 said:

A few comments...

 

If your payments can continue while you’re outside Australia and you intend to be away for:

• less than 12 months, we'll continue to pay your payment into your Australian bank account every 2 weeks

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/payments-while-outside-australia/31226

 

If a person is planning to regularly leave Australia for extended periods, personally I would contact Centrelink Age Pension phone number to give them a heads up to ascertain what payment restrictions, if any, would apply, note to file and so on. e.g. you have funds in Superannuation and planning annual extended overseas trips / staying with friends in Thailand erc

That is correct and relevent for specific holidays/reasons for over 6 weeks (under is always OK) and for a person that lives in Australia and only in Australia - eg. a world cruise/tour or an extended trip to visit relatives/friends.  But if you repeatedly do that, or do it for more than 6 months, CLink will investigate - the issue is that if they deem you are not a permanent resident, then you will lose portability.

 

Yep - good advice. Will be doing that myself.  But my advice is ask CLink before you get the pension approved, and not before you are eligible for portability. Because they will record what you say and it will be looked at later that you were planning that before you got the pension - and they can take that to mean that you never intended to be a permanent resident of Australia.  Unlike the Tax Rules, there is no hard and fast rule and circumstance that applies to everyone - CLink has the total discretion to view each person and each situation in isolation and each delegate has the authority to make decisions based on what they decide. The appeals process gives some certainty to Delegates and People about exactly what any specific rule means, but it is very much an arbitrary process.  That is why there are qualified (by ATO) professional Tax Advisers, but there is no professional and qualified (by CLink) Welfare Advisers.

 

[simple1]

43 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

<SNIP> married the wife in 2007 in Sydney, two girls in 2009 and 2014 and she has two Thai boys which could apply for a Child 101 Visa up to ages 25 if studying.

Although it would reduce the Age Pension by approx $60 per fortnight, if you returned to Oz wouldn't your wife be able to access JobSeeker?

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, AussieBob18 said:

<SNIP> there is no professional and qualified (by CLink) Welfare Advisers.

 

 

I have found the Centrelink Financial Advisers good to get some input