Australian Aged Pension

[Artisi]

27 minutes ago, Will27 said:

If it did come in, you can bet there will be more than a few returning.

 

It's the main reason I don't think the change will be implemented.

Targeting vulnerable pensioners is usually a no go for most governments.

Well, I along with many others trust that it won't be implimented in its current form. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps you have forgotten I posted a figure of 90,000 in response to your 200,000 claim.

What makes your figure correct, and my figure inaccurate?  You put forward many are part pensioners.  Once again, even if the pension is exempt, what becomes of their other source of income?

 

It's taxed at non resident rates.  So part pensioners may very well be worse off than those on a full pension.  If you disagree, post why you disagree, and not, "you are just being negative" because a comment like that means nothing when discussing the law, which tends to be black and white.  

 

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

True, I have racked up nearly 19,000 posts. Having said that, I can't recall any thread where I have made more than 250 posts, which IMO is monomania.

I have replied to every member who has quoted me and / or asked me a question.  Yes, the posts racked up on this one thread, but I have replied to them.

 

No doubt it's a hot topic, as any topic is that challenges people's comfort zone.  

 

4 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I think I can reasonably claim quite a few of my posts are intended to help other people, not instil fear in them.

 

I have also had two death threats on the ASEAN/Thai Visa forum. In the light of that, casting yourself as a victim of a smear campaign is not going to get any traction with me.

 

Let me suggest you do something positive, such as sharing the strategies in more detail you have discussed with your accountant. 

If you look in the computer / internet forum you will see I often offer advice there, and I am thanked for it.

 

Am I instilling "fear" or being informative, with a twist of motivation?  The proposed changes are there, they are not make belief to instill fear."  If some fear the changes, how is that on me?

 

I have said, hope for the best, but prepare for the worse. 

 

Financially assess yourself and see if you can remain in Thailand, with 32.5% less coming in from Australia, pensioner or not. 

 

Look at what adjustments you can make to your lifestyle in Thailand, rather than going back to Australia for 184 days a year. 

 

Seek to minimize your exposure to the new laws.  Seek professional financial advice if you need to. 

 

Is the above "instilling fear" or reasonable advice?

 

Interesting you've had death threats.  Did it make the topic of discussion go away?  If people threaten my life, will it stop the proposed tax changes being passed?   

 

I'm not playing the victim.  Simply stating a fact that I have been the subject of ridicule, abuse, personal attacks etc, for which, at the end of the day, the proposed changes have not changed.  Shooting the messenger on AseanNow does not effect Australian Government policy.  

 

I have shared one strategy.  There are some other avenues to explore, one of which was liquidating everything and moving the proceeds offshore, away from the ATO, Singapore being the choice of destination.  Completely legal, and I already know a few guys who have done this, but not because of the proposed changes, but for other reasons. 

 

If I was to ask, "If / when the proposed changes come in, and if they effect all expats, what's your strategy" all that would come back is replies look the two I recently quoted.  

 

Many people really need to believe the proposed changes will not come in, and if they do, they will have no impact on them. 

[Will27]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

What makes your figure correct, and my figure inaccurate?  You put forward many are part pensioners.  Once again, even if the pension is exempt, what becomes of their other source of income?

 

It's taxed at non resident rates.  So part pensioners may very well be worse off than those on a full pension.  If you disagree, post why you disagree, and not, "you are just being negative" because a comment like that means nothing when discussing the law, which tends to be black and white.  

 

I have replied to every member who has quoted me and / or asked me a question.  Yes, the posts racked up on this one thread, but I have replied to them.

 

No doubt it's a hot topic, as any topic is that challenges people's comfort zone.  

 

If you look in the computer / internet forum you will see I often offer advice there, and I am thanked for it.

 

Am I instilling "fear" or being informative, with a twist of motivation?  The proposed changes are there, they are not make belief to instill fear."  If some fear the changes, how is that on me?

 

I have said, hope for the best, but prepare for the worse. 

 

Financially assess yourself and see if you can remain in Thailand, with 32.5% less coming in from Australia, pensioner or not. 

 

Look at what adjustments you can make to your lifestyle in Thailand, rather than going back to Australia for 184 days a year. 

 

Seek to minimize your exposure to the new laws.  Seek professional financial advice if you need to. 

 

Is the above "instilling fear" or reasonable advice?

 

Interesting you've had death threats.  Did it make the topic of discussion go away?  If people threaten my life, will it stop the proposed tax changes being passed?   

 

I'm not playing the victim.  Simply stating a fact that I have been the subject of ridicule, abuse, personal attacks etc, for which, at the end of the day, the proposed changes have not changed.  Shooting the messenger on AseanNow does not effect Australian Government policy.  

 

I have shared one strategy.  There are some other avenues to explore, one of which was liquidating everything and moving the proceeds offshore, away from the ATO, Singapore being the choice of destination.  Completely legal, and I already know a few guys who have done this, but not because of the proposed changes, but for other reasons. 

 

If I was to ask, "If / when the proposed changes come in, and if they effect all expats, what's your strategy" all that would come back is replies look the two I recently quoted.  

 

Many people really need to believe the proposed changes will not come in, and if they do, they will have no impact on them. 

Another long winded reply that says nothing.

 

I didn't see that coming????

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, Artisi said:

If the new rules pass, that's if and I don't see any reason why they won't, there will be no strategy to bye pass the 183 days. 

If it passes and you're out of the country for more than 183 day (without good reason ie, business travel etc.) you will be classified as a non resident and subject to the proposed tax. 

That's the I read it, and that's by design.  The government doesn't want anyone living overseas in any gray area anymore.

 

5 hours ago, Artisi said:

I cannot see what all this backward and forward snipping and aggravation is about. 

If it's brought in, it's in and that's it, plus even now if the tax guys are aware that your living overseas, there is current provision to tax your earnings, but  as pointed out - it's a gray area and many if not all are dodging it. 

I agree.  It's written for all to see. 

 

Immigration know you are outside of Australia for 183 days.  Centrelink know you are receiving a pension.  The ATO have your last tax return. 

 

So many posts based on emotion, and not the written word of the law. 

 

I get that it's bad news, but shooting the messenger does nothing. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

There's been a lot of reasons put forward why it won't be implemented.

How many of them hold any weight?

 

What is the main reason you think the proposed changes will not be passed?

 

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

Most of the sniping is due to one insufferable poster TBF.

Again with the personal attacks, yet no thoughts of your own presented. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

When then your post is meaningless then if that's the case.

 

You missed his point. 

 

A post put forward that goes against the letter of the law is meaningless. 

 

The laws are there for all to read.  Each member has to work out what impact they will have on them. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

Someone who has posted over 200 posts, with the vast majority of them about the same subject,

200 or 2000, so what?  It's a hot topic that has the ability to impact every Australian expat, 20,000 of whom reside in Thailand, apparently.

 

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

not to mention incorrect information

Example?   

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The big question is whether Australia will (AFAIK) become the first nation in the world to tax government pensions.

A pension reduction, not a tax.

 

I believe pensioners from the UK don't receive annual CPI increases if living abroad.  I mentioned this sometime ago, which again attracted a lot of posts as to why the Australian government would never do it, despite another government doing it for years.

 

They may exempt pensions, but no increases.  This is just speculation, but they have more than one option available to them.

 

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A pension is not earnings. I have always paid whatever taxes I owed on earnings, either via PAYE, or FY assessment of investment income/capital gains.

Earnings, from any source, or multiple sources, are all classified as "income" as are pensions, and it's all income that will be taxed at non resident rates if outside of Australia for 183 days.

 

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

The aggravation arises from endless negativity. Permit me to doubt I am alone in that perception.

Please point out some positive things for Aussie expats in the proposed changes.  It's negative for all expats.  There's no up side, at this stage.

 

Who knows, if / when they come in, Albo may announce pensions are exempt, or a change to the non resident tax brackets, but I haven't seen any suggestion of these in the proposed changes. 

 

In Albo we trust.  Is that positive? 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

 

Taxable pensions, payments and allowances

You must include taxable Australian Government pensions, payments and allowances in your tax return. Examples include:

• age pension
• carer payment
• Austudy payment
• JobSeeker payment
• Youth allowance
• Defence Force income support allowance (DFISA) where the pension, payment or allowance to which it relates is taxable
• veteran payment
• invalidity service pension, if you are age-pension age or over
• disability support pension, if you are age-pension age or over
• income support supplement
• sickness allowance
• parenting payment (partnered)
• disaster recovery allowance (but not in relation to 2019–20 bushfires).

So seems pensions are taxable 

PS - added after switching on brain - if below tax free threshold it would non taxable 

 

You are just scaremongering now.  No way what you posted can be fact.   

 

There is no tax free threshold for non resident tax rates.  It's 32.5% from $0 to $120,000, and then it goes up from there.   (link already posted) 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

Pensions are taxable, but if that's your only source of income you're OK.

Non resident tax rates start at $0. 

 

You're "ok" if inside Australia, maybe not "ok" if / when the proposed changes are passed. 

 

The pension is taxable (income) and you are outside Australia for 183 days.  Now, what part of this is "misinformation?" 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Where does the 200,000 Aussie expats number come from?

See my previous post for how I got to that figure. I did say it's debatable.  Only immigration and Centrelink know the exact figure. 

 

At any given time there are around 1,000,000 Aussies living overseas.  (see previous links from two government websites)

 

Only 2 out of every 10 of those Aussies being on a pension seems reasonable to me, but it's debatable. 

 

Another member put it at 90,000, because thousands of others were on part pensions.  I addressed this in a subsequent post.   

 

He said Thailand has 20,000 Aussie expats alone.  I would suggest the majority are retired.  Bali has around 10,000, so I would say the figure of 90,000 is a little skinny, but appreciate the member putting it forward, rather than a useless personal attack.  

Edited February 28, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[Artisi]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

You are just scaremongering now.  No way what you posted can be fact.   

 

There is no tax free threshold for non resident tax rates.  It's 32.5% from $0 to $120,000, and then it goes up from there.   (link already posted) 

You are correct.i forgot to add that applies to residents but not to non residents which starts at zero income. 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

You are NOT alone, the negativity comes from one poster who it seems searches for anything /creates whatever, to keep posting negative comments. He quotes 'data' which is his creation. 

Please point out something positive for expats about the proposed changes. 

 

Any data I have posted I have linked. 

 

I was "creative" with the 200,000 Aussie expats living abroad on a pension, and explained how I got to that figure and said, many times, it's debatable.

 

You you don't want any latitude in posting, let's do this:

 

The proposed changes deem anyone outside Australia for 183 days as a non resident.  A pension is a designated income.  Non resident tax rates start at $0 to $120,000 at 32.5% and go up from there.  Go your hardest and tell me this is not fact, and I have "created" this, and that it's misinformation.  Then tell me how YOU will not be impacted by this.  

 

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

The reality is quite simple. Nobody knows what might/could happen in the longer term re pensions, taxes and similar, so everything this poster submits to the webboard is assumption, speculation, twists into negativity. 

You have links to the proposed changes.  I didn't write them.  They are not my websites.

 

Are they an assumption, a twist, a speculation?  They are there for you to read.  There's every chance they will become law one day.

 

What I am interested in your own assumptions, twists, speculation, and positivity as to why they will not impact you, and others.  Please share with something more than "These laws are only for guys like Paul Hogan."  Tell us all why YOU will stand outside of these laws.

 

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

In the meantime I assume that the OZ government will not penalize pensioners in any way. In fact there's been recent mention in the media that pensioners are struggling and metion of the possibility of some support. Not facts, just some mention. 

 

Further, nowadays I don't believe most media reports, all media/any country.

 

I put a block on the 'usual suspect's' posts but somehow the block stopped working. 

Now who's making assumptions?

 

So, there's some black and white proposed legislation, which is all over the internet, but some "mention" of some relief for pensioners in the media is what you are going with.  Well, I'll go with what I have read on the many accounting, law, and wealth manager websites, but good luck with the "mention" in the media. 

 

I have no problem if you block me.  In fact, I encourage members to do it. 

 

     

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Well, one shoe has dropped. A long overdue reform.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-28/jim-chalmers-superannuation-tax-changes-three-million-cap/102032156

And that's how easily and quickly something like this can be passed. 

 

Who are they going to go after next? 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Exactly. Is the tax free threshold removed when someone is classed as non-resident?  If so, then the pension is taxed, without regard to any income thresholds.

I've only posted the non resident tax brackets about four times. 

 

There is NO tax free threshold for non resident tax brackets.

 

The first tier is $0 to $120,000 at 32.5% and it goes up from there.  (see previous links)

 

Once again, there is no mention of a change to the non resident tax brackets in the proposed changes.  Is that me being "negative" or that are not mentioned? 

 

Can you see how the proposed changes are designed to scoop up everyone?  Is that me being "negative" or there's no way getting around paying the tax man? 

Edited February 28, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

The fact is must be listed doesn't automatically means it is subject to taxation.

 

It could be that:

 

- I must be listed but is in fact exempt from taxation. 

 

Will it be exempt as a non resident? 

 

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

I very much doubt any OZ government would ever consider taxing such allowances/payments. 

Sounds a lot like an assumption, a twist, speculation. 

 

You've read the laws.  Please point out where pensions are not taxed at non resident rates for pensioners living overseas?  I didn't see that bit. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

I believe it is currently, but this can and is dodged around by many, including myself prior to returning to Aus.   - but let's not start the discussion all over again -  it's been  done to death.

Yes, which is exactly why the 183 days outside of Australia was designed.  No getting around it.   

[ripstanley]

22 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

And that's how easily and quickly something like this can be passed. 

 

Who are they going to go after next? 

Nothing has been passed. It is  a cabinet proposal at this stage. It will be introduced in the Budget in May and then if passed it will come into effect on 1/07/2025 This date will be after the next election so anything can happen

Edited February 28, 2023 by ripstanley

[LosLobo]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Please point out something positive for expats about the proposed changes. 

 

To every cloud there is a silver lining!

And for this cloud, the approval of the proposed changes would be the epilogue and therefore the end of this boring and torturous saga inflicted upon this forum.

 

Apologies to @scorecard for butting in.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

My argument with another poster has been about what is high and low-hanging fruit. I rest my case.

Logic tells me the sole 183 day rule ( assuming it ever gets up with a Labor government ) would also follow the timeline of the next Federal election, two and a half years away. Given the Boomer population bulge, IMO unlikely. Don't mess with the pensioner vote is Politics 101.

Can you imagine the teal independents and Greens won't be supporting the Treasurer's comments? I am enjoying the spectacle of the Liberals being reduced to a wailing anachronism.

Let's hope it's never passed, but it's a 90 year old law that, although I have been taking advantage of the gray area, needs to be reformed. 

 

We have just seen reform of what, a 35 year old tax law, something like that.  The non resident tax law is over 90 years old.  A government could justify reforming it with not much of a sales pitch to the public.

 

The proposed changes have been up for all to see for years now.  Government has given forewarning of their intentions.  

 

The high hanging Aussie expat fruit needs to pay their share. 

 

I would put myself as middle hanging fruit, and believe I will be scooped up in this.

 

Whether or not the low hanging fruit get a free pass remains to be seen, but I haven't read anything in the proposed changes suggesting any expats get to stand outside these changes, have you? 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

I reckon they will take notice when/if a pensioner returns to Oz and goes to the media about not being able to live with his family overseas because his pension has been reduced by a 3rd.

 

And when pensioners return to Australia with nowhere to live.

 

And that will happen.

I would not be surprised if what you describe takes place.  On a side issue, there are already many homeless Aussie due to the housing shortage crisis and ridiculous rents and house prices. 

 

Of course, one question the interviewer will ask is, "What about your family in Australia?"  The answer from most retired expats would be interesting.

 

Perhaps it may cause an amendment in the laws to make pensions exempt.  Who knows? 

 

As I have been discussing with another member, it's a savage tax at 32.5% for most expats, who are lower to middle hanging fruit. 

 

I have no doubt the proposed changes were designed to scoop up everyone, with a focus on netting big dollars from the high hanging fruit, with little to no thought about the severe financial consequences for the low hanging expat fruit.  

 

I have posted a link where the assistant treasurer said Labor were looking into possibly adjusting the number of days, but that does nothing for full time expat retirees.   

Edited February 28, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

If it did come in, you can bet there will be more than a few returning.

The government would simply view this as repatriating pension money back into the Australian economy, and actually get some of that pension back in GST, council rates, taxes and excises, licenses, fees, levies etc. 

 

3 hours ago, Will27 said:

It's the main reason I don't think the change will be implemented.

Targeting vulnerable pensioners is usually a no go for most governments.

Do you think the high hanging expat fruit will get a free pass because the government doesn't want to impart non resident taxation on Aussie expat pensioners? 

 

I think it will come in, but the best that can be hoped for is pensions will be exempt.

 

As another member pointed out, what about all the part pensioners?  Their pension may be exempt, but not their other source of income, otherwise the government opens the stable door. 

 

Part pensioners are not on big money, but I can't see their other source of income getting a free pass.  They may suffer more than full pensioners.      

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Spilornis said:

it appears to have a secondary test very similar to the old domicile test but you need to have spent 45 days per year in Australia to avail yourself of that aspect of the test.

This was discussed some time ago.

 

We were not sure if you will be deemed a resident, or a non resident for taxation purposes, if you spend more than 45 days in Australia, but less then 183 days in Australia. 

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Another long winded reply that says nothing.

 

I didn't see that coming????

Another short puff of air from you, with nothing.

 

Predictable as usual. 

[KhunHeineken]

38 minutes ago, ripstanley said:

Nothing has been passed. It is  a cabinet proposal at this stage. It will be introduced in the Budget in May and then if passed it will come into effect on 1/07/2025 This date will be after the next election so anything can happen

Yes, I mentioned that.  Plenty of warning for the 80,000 impacted by it. 

 

You don't think they have the numbers to pass it?  Why would they announce it if they haven't secured the support to push it through?

 

It's a done deal. 

 

[Will27]

Just finished reading another of KH's posts..

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Will27

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Just finished reading another of KH's posts..

 

 

If anything in this thread has caused you, or someone you know, distress, call Lifeline on +61 131114.  Help is only a phone call away.   

[ozfarang]

12 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Sure, but does that mean one should totally disregard it? 

I'll worry about it when it is presented in the lower house and the debate begins.

 

In the meantime no interested in what if's

[ripstanley]

2 hours ago, Will27 said:

Just finished reading another of KH's posts..

 

 

Great post. I do not have access to the HA HA emoji or you would have got one  

[rhodie]

8 hours ago, Spilornis said:

Interesting...

it appears to have a secondary test very similar to the old domicile test but you need to have spent 45 days per year in Australia to avail yourself of that aspect of the test.

For people residing overseas who don't satisfy either test and who receive Australian income (including the OAP) the inability to avail oneself of the tax free threshold is a big change

Cheers. Yes, I agree the 45 days has been discussed. Could you please post a link to the legislation.