Australian Aged Pension

[Will27]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I am wondering what happens to those pensioners who filled out a non-lodgment advice years ago, and dropped out of the tax system because they had no tax to pay. How would the ATO get back in contact to say you now need to do a tax return, and pay 30% tax on your pension?

AFAIK the ATO does not have the authority to take money from anyone's bank accounts. What does the ATO do if their communications are ignored?

Many years ago, I knew a guy who worked as a surveyor. Moved around a lot due to his job. He told me he had not submitted a tax return for 20 years.

The ATO does have the authority to garnish banks accounts.

I for one don't think the changes will come into effect, despite what a few on here think.

 

And even if they did, I can't see them chasing up OAP's to get them to lodge tax returns.

If they did implement a new law, I don't think it would be retrospective anyway.

 

I'm sure however that KH will be along shortly with a Leo Tolstoy length reply telling me I'm wrong and that we're all doomed.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Not sure about it not being illegal - it was the practice by many but probably not tracked by ATO  as there wasn't any communication between ATO and Centrelink - however this could very well change if the current proposal is adopted.  

In discussions with my accountant, and the fact that I actually did maintain a "domicile" in Australia, as well as a vehicle, utility bills etc, it could be argued that I had never severed ties with my Australian residency for tax purposes.  However, it is a gray area, and luckily I was never challenged on it. 

 

As you say, that will all change if these new tax laws come in.  If you are outside of Australia 183 days, you are a non resident for tax purposes, zero gray area. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I am wondering what happens to those pensioners who filled out a non-lodgment advice years ago, and dropped out of the tax system because they had no tax to pay. How would the ATO get back in contact to say you now need to do a tax return, and pay 30% tax on your pension?

AFAIK the ATO does not have the authority to take money from anyone's bank accounts. What does the ATO do if their communications are ignored?

Many years ago, I knew a guy who worked as a surveyor. Moved around a lot due to his job. He told me he had not submitted a tax return for 20 years.

Why would expat pensioners have to put in a tax return, and why would the ATO have to contact them?

 

The payer is also the tax collector, the government. 

 

The way I would think it will happen is, 183 days after the laws are passed, Centrelink are informed you are out of the country more than 183 days and you get 32% less pension.  Simple. 

 

They are not going to keep giving the full pension, and then chase what they are owed in non resident taxation with a bill.

 

I think it will be similar to when you were working. 

 

Example:  you earn $100 and your boss forwards $20 to the ATO and you have $80 to spend.  You have $100 pension come through, but because you are outside Australian 183 days, Centrelink deduct $32 of it and forward it to the ATO and send through $68. 

 

Why would they go to all the trouble of collections and enforcement when they already hold the money they would be chasing at the end of the financial year anyway? 

 

They will just deduct the 32% non resident tax rate in the same way your boss used to deduct tax and forward it to the ATO. 

[KhunHeineken]

30 minutes ago, Will27 said:

The ATO does have the authority to garnish banks accounts.

The ATO is Australia's biggest creditor, and is responsible for winding up more companies and businesses than the banks.

 

31 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I for one don't think the changes will come into effect, despite what a few on here think.

Why do you think that?

 

Why would they go to all the trouble and expense to draft the legislation, for nothing.

 

The current tax laws on this issue date back decades, and have become redundant with globalization and the internet.

 

If Labor don't bring it in, for sure the next Liberal government will, as they commissioned the drafting, so it would only be a matter of time. 

 

34 minutes ago, Will27 said:

And even if they did, I can't see them chasing up OAP's to get them to lodge tax returns.

If they did implement a new law, I don't think it would be retrospective anyway.

 

I'm sure however that KH will be along shortly with a Leo Tolstoy length reply telling me I'm wrong and that we're all doomed.

No chasing to be done. 

 

As said, the payer is also the collector, so why pay out just to take back, when they can deduct what they know you owe, because they know you are outside Australia 183 days.

 

The danger of retrospective or grandfathering is there be a rush of people to retire, so they can be grandfathered in also.  That turns tax payers into pension receivers.  Why would they do that?

 

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just disagree with you.  We are both entitled to our opinions.  

 

As far as being doomed, not every one will be indirectly forced back to Australia.  Many will make some chances to their financial position to minimize the impact, many will make adjustments to their lifestyle and remain in Thailand or elsewhere, some may have to opt for 6 months in Australia and 6 months in Thailand or elsewhere, however, some may not be able to do any of these and will have to return home.   

 

The proposed changes are there for all to see.  Ignore at your own peril.   

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

And the know-all expert has spoken.

No need to get personal about it. 

 

The proposed changes are there for you to look at, and you can decide that should they be passed, what effect, if any, they may, or may not, have on you.

 

You can put me on your ignore list if it's all too much for you. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:45 AM, giddyup said:

I said that I believed that C'link has no access to bank details anywhere in the world, the ATO may do in Australia but I doubt they do elsewhere.

As another member said, AUSTRAC was notified when you transferred your money from your Australian bank account to your Thailand bank account.  

 

I have no idea if they inform Centrelink, but for sure they would inform certain government agencies, the ATO being one of them.   

 

Tax avoidance, money laundering, drug dealing, financing terror etc etc etc etc.  AUSTRAC don't just sit on the data. 

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

As another member said, AUSTRAC was notified when you transferred your money from your Australian bank account to your Thailand bank account.  

 

I have no idea if they inform Centrelink, but for sure they would inform certain government agencies, the ATO being one of them.   

 

Tax avoidance, money laundering, drug dealing, financing terror etc etc etc etc.  AUSTRAC don't just sit on the data. 

Hey! I'm 80, I really don't give a rodents rectum who does what, but the money is where no govt. agency can get their hands on it. They can reduce my pension, who cares, I have more than enough to see me out, as will my partner when I'm gone. So scare tactics are wasted on me.

 

[ripstanley]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

As another member said, AUSTRAC was notified when you transferred your money from your Australian bank account to your Thailand bank account.  

 

I have no idea if they inform Centrelink, but for sure they would inform certain government agencies, the ATO being one of them.   

 

Tax avoidance, money laundering, drug dealing, financing terror etc etc etc etc.  AUSTRAC don't just sit on the data. 

I can assure you that AUSTRAC do not inform any department of transfers. If that department has access to the AUSTRAC system then they can check transfers for a certain individual if that individual comes to there attention. 

[Lacessit]

6 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

As another member said, AUSTRAC was notified when you transferred your money from your Australian bank account to your Thailand bank account.  

 

I have no idea if they inform Centrelink, but for sure they would inform certain government agencies, the ATO being one of them.   

 

Tax avoidance, money laundering, drug dealing, financing terror etc etc etc etc.  AUSTRAC don't just sit on the data. 

AUSTRAC is notified of transfers above $10,000. Permit me to doubt they are going to waste their time tracking WISE transfers of a few thousand dollars. Or that the financial institution would be reporting them.

[ripstanley]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

AUSTRAC is notified of transfers above $10,000. Permit me to doubt they are going to waste their time tracking WISE transfers of a few thousand dollars. Or that the financial institution would be reporting them.

You are wrong. AUSTRAC is notified of all electronic transfers of money being transferred from Australia. The $10,000 limit is only  for passengers and crew  embarking from Australia.

[MAF666]

I am returning to Sydney to lodge my OAP claim next month.

Will be back home in Thailand as soon as possible.

Have to notify that you are leaving Australia.

Has anybody here had their pension reduced after the time period?

[Olmate]

14 minutes ago, MAF666 said:

I am returning to Sydney to lodge my OAP claim next month.

Will be back home in Thailand as soon as possible.

Have to notify that you are leaving Australia.

Has anybody here had their pension reduced after the time period?

See Ya in 2 yrs! 

[ozfarang]

55 minutes ago, MAF666 said:

I am returning to Sydney to lodge my OAP claim next month.

Will be back home in Thailand as soon as possible.

Have to notify that you are leaving Australia.

Has anybody here had their pension reduced after the time period?

You will have your pension reduced to ZERO if you leave Australia before your 2 years living in Australia to gain portability of your pension.

 

Good luck, enjoy Sydney for a 2 year break from Thailand

 

 

[Will27]

9 hours ago, ripstanley said:

I can assure you that AUSTRAC do not inform any department of transfers. If that department has access to the AUSTRAC system then they can check transfers for a certain individual if that individual comes to there attention. 

Nice one Rip.

Just another example of misinformation that our resident scaremonger has provided.

 

Expect another 2 page response from him trying to twist things rather than just coming out

and saying "I got it wrong".

[MAF666]

31 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

You will have your pension reduced to ZERO if you leave Australia before your 2 years living in Australia to gain portability of your pension.

 

Good luck, enjoy Sydney for a 2 year break from Thailand

 

 

Bugga.

[Will27]

2 minutes ago, MAF666 said:

Bugga.

How long have you been living in Thailand for?

 

Do you mean you want to lodge your application and then do your two years in Oz before returning?

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, ripstanley said:

You are wrong. AUSTRAC is notified of all electronic transfers of money being transferred from Australia. The $10,000 limit is only  for passengers and crew  embarking from Australia.

You are wrong too. The $10,000 limit applies not only to passengers and crew, but all cash sent by air, courier or by sea.

You may be right on the electronic reporting, permit me to doubt AUSTRAC will get their knickers in a twist over one or two thousand AUD. After all, it took them years to catch up with Westpac.

[MAF666]

59 minutes ago, Will27 said:

How long have you been living in Thailand for?

 

Do you mean you want to lodge your application and then do your two years in Oz before returning?

I have filled in the Ausgov claim, and seem to qualify.

Not lodged yet as I am not in Oz.

Have just been made aware of the 2 year rule.

Living back there for 2 years is not an option.

3 years on the farm in Chanthaburi.

Will just keep growing most of our food and selling the excess.

Tending my wife’s licensed grow plots is my fave.

[Will27]

1 minute ago, MAF666 said:

I have filled in the Ausgov claim, and seem to qualify.

Not lodged yet as I am not in Oz.

Have just been made aware of the 2 year rule.

Living back there for 2 years is not an option.

3 years on the farm in Chanthaburi.

Will just keep growing most of our food and selling the excess.

Tending my wife’s licensed grow plots is my fave.

Sounds like you're screwed unfortunately ????

 

I will be in the same boat.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Will27 said:

How long have you been living in Thailand for?

 

Do you mean you want to lodge your application and then do your two years in Oz before returning?

OK, you return and lodge your application for the OAP.

 

The day after I arrived I went to C'link, got a CRN (C'link Reference Number), proved my identity and lodged my OAP application and Assets and Income statement.

 

The OAP application goes immediately/electronically to C'link Canberra. 

 

OAP applications are processed 99% by computer not hand processed by C'link staff. Approval is now quite fast. I received my first payment and backpay to the date I submitted in just under 3 weeks. 

 

And to ultimately gain portability you need to show that you are 're-establishing a home in OZ'. If you're renting you may be entitled to Rent Assistance. You don't need to apply for Rent Assistance the C'link computer will decide from your OAP application docs and automatically pay it every 2 weeks with your OAP payment.

 

NOTE::::::::: YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY IN OZ FULL TIME FOR THE 2 YEARS. YOU CAN LEAVE FOR A FEW WEEK AND RETURN TO OZ.

 

IF YOU DO GO OUT OF OZ AND RETURN THE TIME OUT DOESN'T DISTURB BUILDING THE 2 YEARS; BUILDING THE 2 YEARS CONTINUES.

YOU CAN GO OUT AND RETURN SEVERAL TIMES EACH YEAR AND IT DOESN'T AFFECT BUILDING THE 2 YEARS.

 

C'link does have a 24/7 link to immigration records and every time you do go out and return to Oz it's automatically/electronically added to your C'link records. As above this doesn't disturb building your 2 years. 

 

I did the 2 years but in my case I didn't leave OZ for the 2 years but that was at the height of the Covid- 19 situation when people needed to get permission to leave OZ (possible) but more relevant / difficult was to get permission to enter Thailand.

 

The regulation is that you should inform c'link of your travel plans but you don't have to tell them where you are going, immigration records don't include your destination plans etc, and Immigration or C'link  don't ask 'where are you going' 'where did you go' or 'where did you stay', etc.

 

 

 

 

[Will27]

3 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK, you return and lodge your application for the OAP.

 

The day after I arrived I went to C'link, got a CRN (C'link Reference Number), proved my identity and lodged my OAP application and Assets and Income statement. (The OAP application goes immediately/electronically to c'link Canberra, it's not processed by the local C'link office.

 

OAP applications are processed 99% by computer not hand processed by C'link staff.

 

And you need to show that you are 're-establishing a home in OZ'. If you're renting you may be entitled to Rent Assistance. You don't need to apply for Rent Assistance the C'link computer will decide from your OAP application docs and automatically pay it every 2 weeks with your OAP.

 

You don't have to stay in Oz for the 2 years to establish Portability'. You can go out of Oz and return a number of times during the 2 years. C'link has a 24/7 link to immigration records and every time you do go out and return to Oz it's automatically/electronically added to your C'link records.

 

A few weeks out several times in the 2 years is not a problem and the time out doen't disturb the building of the 2 years (it doesn't stop and restart).

 

The regulation is that you should inform c'link of your travel plans but you don't have to tell them where you are going, immigrtion records don't include your destination plans etc, and they don't ask 'where are you going' 'where did you go' or 'where did you stay', etc.

 

 

 

 

Thanks, but you should be quoting MAF666.

 

Sounds like he was hoping he would be eligible without the 2 year rule.

[ozfarang]

8 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Thanks, but you should be quoting MAF666.

 

Sounds like he was hoping he would be eligible without the 2 year rule.

Unfortunately there is no chance of any waiver to the 2 year rule

[scorecard]

39 minutes ago, MAF666 said:

I have filled in the Ausgov claim, and seem to qualify.

Not lodged yet as I am not in Oz.

Have just been made aware of the 2 year rule.

Living back there for 2 years is not an option.

3 years on the farm in Chanthaburi.

Will just keep growing most of our food and selling the excess.

Tending my wife’s licensed grow plots is my fave.

NOTE:::::::::: Returning full time for 2 years is not required, see my post a little further in this thread.

[scorecard]

7 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

Unfortunately there is no chance of any waiver to the 2 year rule

True:

 

- Overall the 2 year rule cannot be waived and

 

- Have to be in Oz the day you lodge your OAP application and Assets and Income statement cannot be waived.

 

I tried on the basis of living in a wheelchair. Response was NO, and no further discussion on these points.

[giddyup]

28 minutes ago, scorecard said:

OK, you return and lodge your application for the OAP.

 

The day after I arrived I went to C'link, got a CRN (C'link Reference Number), proved my identity and lodged my OAP application and Assets and Income statement.

 

The OAP application goes immediately/electronically to C'link Canberra. 

 

OAP applications are processed 99% by computer not hand processed by C'link staff. Approval is now quite fast. I received my first payment and backpay to the date I submitted in just under 3 weeks. 

 

And to ultimately gain portability you need to show that you are 're-establishing a home in OZ'. If you're renting you may be entitled to Rent Assistance. You don't need to apply for Rent Assistance the C'link computer will decide from your OAP application docs and automatically pay it every 2 weeks with your OAP payment.

 

NOTE::::::::: YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAY IN OZ FULL TIME FOR THE 2 YEARS. YOU CAN LEAVE FOR A FEW WEEK AND RETURN TO OZ.

 

IF YOU DO GO OUT OF OZ AND RETURN THE TIME OUT DOESN'T DISTURB BUILDING THE 2 YEARS; BUILDING THE 2 YEARS CONTINUES.

YOU CAN GO OUT AND RETURN SEVERAL TIMES EACH YEAR AND IT DOESN'T AFFECT BUILDING THE 2 YEARS.

 

C'link does have a 24/7 link to immigration records and every time you do go out and return to Oz it's automatically/electronically added to your C'link records. As above this doesn't disturb building your 2 years. 

 

I did the 2 years but in my case I didn't leave OZ for the 2 years but that was at the height of the Covid- 19 situation when people needed to get permission to leave OZ (possible) but more relevant / difficult was to get permission to enter Thailand.

 

The regulation is that you should inform c'link of your travel plans but you don't have to tell them where you are going, immigration records don't include your destination plans etc, and Immigration or C'link  don't ask 'where are you going' 'where did you go' or 'where did you stay', etc.

 

 

 

 

How long can you be away during that 2 years without affecting the 2 year stay?

[Will27]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

NOTE:::::::::: Returning full time for 2 years is not required, see my post a little further in this thread.

Yes, as you've advised, you can go on holidays but practically speaking, you pretty much need to do close to your 2 years.

[scorecard]

27 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Yes, as you've advised, you can go on holidays but practically speaking, you pretty much need to do close to your 2 years.

NOT TRUE: You can depart 'for a holiday abroad' not long after you have returned, done the re-establish a home in OZ requirement (not difficult, doesn't take a long time), and lodged your OAP application (note: I lodged my OAP application the day after I returned to OZ, nothing said whatever, no raised eyebrows, nothing, all within C'link requirements/regulations!).

 

Although I didn't leave because of Covid- 19 I did speak to a C'link officer on the older Australians Line  (132 300 in Oz) on this subect. The lady was pleasant and polite, she mentioned several pragraphs / items on the C'link websitere this point and she mentioned:

- Yes you can do trips abroad for a few weeks, and you can do several trips a year, first trip into the 2 year period can be quickly after you return to OZ and get the 2 years for portability process 'running'.

 

As already mentioned building the 2 years is not interupted by these trips (building the 2 years doesn't stop and restart).  The C'link staff mentioned that there are regulations on this specific point but they are not published, if the time out of OZ is very extended or perhaps over one year then questions will be asked and it's possible there could be a penalty. She also mentioned 'this is very very rare'.

[scorecard]

49 minutes ago, giddyup said:

How long can you be away during that 2 years without affecting the 2 year stay?

Cut and paste from just above:  

" Yes you can do trips abroad for a few weeks, and you can do several trips a year, first trip into the 2 year period can be quickly after you return to OZ and get the 2 years for portability process 'running'.

 

As already mentioned building the 2 years is not interupted by these trips (building the 2 years doesn't stop and restart). 

 

The C'link staff mentioned that there are regulations on this specific point but they are not published, if the time out of OZ is very extended or perhaps over one year in one block of time then questions will probably be asked and it's possible there could be a penalty. She also mentioned 'this is very very rare'."

 

Over many years other members have mentioned scenarios like 'three weeks / four weeks out then return to Oz, then a later trip perhaps 3 or 4 months later'.

 

As I mentioned the full regulations on this point are, apparently, not made public but are generous. 

[Will27]

4 minutes ago, scorecard said:

NOT TRUE: You can depart 'for a holiday abroad' not long after you have returned, done the re-establish a home in OZ requirement (not difficult, doesn't take a long time), and lodged your OAP application (note: I lodged my OAP application the day after I returned to OZ, nothing said whatever, no raised eyebrows, nothing, all within C'link requirements/regulations!).

 

Although I didn't leave because of Covid- 19 I did speak to a C'link officer on the older Australians Line  (132 300 in Oz) on this subect. The lady was pleasant and polite, she mentioned several pragraphs / items on the C'link websitere this point and she mentioned:

- Yes you can do trips abroad for a few weeks, and you can do several trips a year, first trip into the 2 year period can be quickly after you return to OZ and get the 2 years for portability process 'running'.

 

As already mentioned building the 2 years is not interupted by these trips (building the 2 years doesn't stop and restart).  The C'link staff mentioned that there are regulations on this specific point but they are not published, if the time out of OZ is very extended or perhaps over one year then questions will be asked and it's possible there could be a penalty. She also mentioned 'this is very very rare'.

I fail to see how it's not true TBH.

 

Surely Centrelink are not going to let you lodge an application and then <deleted> off for months at a time and say it won't affect your 2 year waiting period.

 

You've said "several trips a year for a few weeks".

 

You're still going to have to live the majority of your time in Australia IMO.

[Will27]

2 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Cut and paste from just above:  

" Yes you can do trips abroad for a few weeks, and you can do several trips a year, first trip into the 2 year period can be quickly after you return to OZ and get the 2 years for portability process 'running'.

 

As already mentioned building the 2 years is not interupted by these trips (building the 2 years doesn't stop and restart). 

 

The C'link staff mentioned that there are regulations on this specific point but they are not published, if the time out of OZ is very extended or perhaps over one year in one block of time then questions will probably be asked and it's possible there could be a penalty. She also mentioned 'this is very very rare'."

 

Over many years other members have mentioned scenarios like 'three weeks / four weeks out then return to Oz, then a later trip perhaps 3 or 4 months later'.

 

As I mentioned the full regulations on this point are, apparently, not made public but are generous. 

So really, you're just guessing.

 

How long do you think it would be ok to stay out of Australia in the 2 year period?

I'd be interested to know.