Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/15/2023 at 5:24 AM, Will27 said:

Again, I was talking about a debt to the ATO, not Centrelink.

 

Are both agencies not part of the same government, therefore, their data bases communicate to each other, and if they are currently not, how long before they do? 

 

Then, you can add the immigration data base to that as well, which is already linked to both these data bases, as we all know.

 

All that is left for the government to do is tighten up enforcement / compliance, and that's on its way, and not just for guys like Paul Hogan. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:34 AM, Will27 said:

The ATO is not going to provide a link saying they won't chase your debt.

That would be stupid.

So, it's only your opinion then. 

 

On 7/15/2023 at 7:34 AM, Will27 said:

In just about most cases, legal action won't be taken to try and collect a debt when it is uneconomical to do so.

Again, spending thousands of dollars to chase a $700 would be ridiculous.

You forget, the legal public servants are permanently employed, on a salary, they are not outsourced and paid for a job.  They get paid every fortnight regardless if they have 10 cases on the go, or 20 cases on the go, they still get paid the same. 

 

On 7/15/2023 at 7:34 AM, Will27 said:

The ATO can determine that a tax debt is not viable to pursue, given the costs associated with pursuing it and the prospects of recovery.

Sure, but you are yet to state, or link, an actual dollar figure as to what is not a "viable" tax debt to pursue.  Is it $500, $5000, or more?  You are the one claiming they will not chase a small debt, so what is "small?" 

[giddyup]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, it's only your opinion then. 

 

You forget, the legal public servants are permanently employed, on a salary, they are not outsourced and paid for a job.  They get paid every fortnight regardless if they have 10 cases on the go, or 20 cases on the go, they still get paid the same. 

 

Sure, but you are yet to state, or link, an actual dollar figure as to what is not a "viable" tax debt to pursue.  Is it $500, $5000, or more?  You are the one claiming they will not chase a small debt, so what is "small?" 

I had a letter from the ATO saying I owed them $600 but they wouldn't pursue the matter because I was in Thailand. I paid anyway because at that point (around 8 years ago) I thought I might be returning to Oz. I never did, so wasted the $600 basically.

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

I had a letter from the ATO saying I owed them $600 but they wouldn't pursue the matter because I was in Thailand. I paid anyway because at that point (around 8 years ago) I thought I might be returning to Oz. I never did, so wasted the $600 basically.

8 years ago is a long time.  Many state and federal data bases now communicate with each other. 

 

Links have already been posted about students with HECS debt not being allowed to leave Australia, and someone posted about an airport alert on unpaid child support as well.

 

The ATO has the ability to place a departure prohibition order on people with a tax debt.  Would they do it for $600, who knows?  

 

Does a computer care if it's $10 debt, or $10,000 debt? 

 

It's not the criminal intent that some may have surrounding any tax debt that I am discussing, it's about how and what the ATO can and will do to recover it, and if you have any assets, or generate any income in Australia, including a pension, then they can take action against you, regardless of what country you are living in. 

 

Then, there is the issue above where you may have to return home to Australia for family or medical reasons, and you might not be able to leave until the debt has been repaid. 

 

If, or when, the proposed changes to non resident tax comes in, many expats will be accruing debt to the ATO, putting them on the merry-go-round with the tax man.  

[Will27]

 

The ATO aren't in the habit of issuing DPO's like candy.

They're also not issued by a computer.

 

There is no way in the world one would be issued for a $600 debt.

Stopping someone from leaving Australia is not something the ATO does lightly.

 

Do you have any links about people being actually prevented from leaving Australia because of a HECS debt?

 

As I've told you many times before, a debt of that size ($600) would be uneconomical to chase and would be written off.

 

You keep going on about what the ATO can do to recover a debt.

Well almost anything.

 

But again, as I've told you, the level of debt is considered before any enforcement action is taken.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Will27

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, Will27 said:

 

The ATO aren't in the habit of issuing DPO's like candy.

They're also not issued by a computer.

 

There is no way in the world one would be issued for a $600 debt.

Stopping someone from leaving Australia is not something the ATO does lightly.

 

Do you have any links about people being actually prevented from leaving Australia because of a HECS debt?

 

As I've told you many times before, a debt of that size ($600) would be uneconomical to chase and would be written off.

 

You keep going on about what the ATO can do to recover a debt.

Well almost anything.

 

But again, as I've told you, the level of debt is considered before any enforcement action is taken.

 

 

 

 

Here's a couple of links.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/money/tax/what-you-need-to-know-about-your-student-debt-before-heading-overseas-20180430-p4zcf7.html

 

This guy has an interesting story.  

 

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-03/qld-hecs-help-ex-pats-indexation-university-debt/102427526

 

See this line:

 

"Now, the ATO uses passport matching to track who leaves the country with a HECS debt."  Do you really think the ATO tracks passports ONLY for HECS debt? 

 

Do you have any links showing the amount the ATO will not chase?  Is it $1000, $5000, $10,000? 

 

As you said, the ATO can do pretty much anything to recover debt, so why wouldn't they?  

 

 

[Will27]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

Here's a couple of links.

 

https://www.smh.com.au/money/tax/what-you-need-to-know-about-your-student-debt-before-heading-overseas-20180430-p4zcf7.html

 

This guy has an interesting story.  

 

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-03/qld-hecs-help-ex-pats-indexation-university-debt/102427526

 

See this line:

 

"Now, the ATO uses passport matching to track who leaves the country with a HECS debt."  Do you really think the ATO tracks passports ONLY for HECS debt? 

 

Do you have any links showing the amount the ATO will not chase?  Is it $1000, $5000, $10,000? 

 

As you said, the ATO can do pretty much anything to recover debt, so why wouldn't they?  

 

 

Unless I've missed it, are there any links that have said people have been stopped leaving Australia because of a HECS debt as you posted?

 

I keep telling you why.

Debts are worked out on level and if it's economical or not to pursue them in most cases, not all.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Will27

[KhunHeineken]

19 minutes ago, Will27 said:

 

Unless I've missed it, are there any links that have said people have been stopped leaving Australia because of a HECS debt as you posted?

 

I keep telling you why.

Debts are worked out on level and if it's economical or not to pursue them in most cases, not all.

 

I think you will find graduates are well aware of the policy and know their passport is tracked, so there are no news links of someone being detained at the airport. 

 

You keep telling me and I keep asking you, what dollar amount of debt will the ATO not bother chasing?  This is your claim.  Do you have any links? 

 

You say they will not chase small debts.  What dollar amount is "small?" 

[Will27]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I think you will find graduates are well aware of the policy and know their passport is tracked, so there are no news links of someone being detained at the airport. 

 

You keep telling me and I keep asking you, what dollar amount of debt will the ATO not bother chasing?  This is your claim.  Do you have any links? 

 

You say they will not chase small debts.  What dollar amount is "small?" 

Doesn't have to be a new link.

You said people have been prevented from leaving Australia with a HECS debt and now cannot show it.

 

Bottom line is, you said people have been stopped leaving the country with a HECS debts and when challenged, cannot provide any proof.

 

It's ok if you got it wrong, just admit it.

 

As far as debt recovery, the ATO will have policy on what debts they will pursue.

You can even see in the post by Giddyup, the ATO told him they weren't going to chase it, and that was $600.

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, Will27 said:

You said people have been prevented from leaving Australia with a HECS debt and now cannot show it.

People can be prevented from leaving Australia, and I have provided two creditable links setting out the government's policy.

 

Are you saying it's fake news?  Are you saying the government is bluffing? 

 

19 hours ago, Will27 said:

Bottom line is, you said people have been stopped leaving the country with a HECS debts and when challenged, cannot provide any proof.

Bottom line is, I am saying they can be stopped from leaving Australia unless they pay, or make arrangements to pay.  Read the links again.

 

19 hours ago, Will27 said:

As far as debt recovery, the ATO will have policy on what debts they will pursue.

You can even see in the post by Giddyup, the ATO told him they weren't going to chase it, and that was $600.

Still waiting on a link from you about a dollar value the ATO will not chase.  Requested said link many time, yet nothing.  It's just your opinion. 

 

We have one member's account of a $600 debt from 8 years ago.  Things change over 8 years.  Say the member flew back to Australia 7 years ago, perhaps that ATO may have caused him some issues.  

 

Still waiting on that link. 

 

 

[Seeall]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:36 PM, KhunHeineken said:

So, it's only your opinion then. 

 

You forget, the legal public servants are permanently employed, on a salary, they are not outsourced and paid for a job.  They get paid every fortnight regardless if they have 10 cases on the go, or 20 cases on the go, they still get paid the same. 

 

Sure, but you are yet to state, or link, an actual dollar figure as to what is not a "viable" tax debt to pursue.  Is it $500, $5000, or more?  You are the one claiming they will not chase a small debt, so what is "small?" 

they sent snail mail to me overseas for recivery of AUD $ 2 ....  my US friend thought it was most amusing....

[Will27]

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

People can be prevented from leaving Australia, and I have provided two creditable links setting out the government's policy.

 

Are you saying it's fake news?  Are you saying the government is bluffing? 

 

Bottom line is, I am saying they can be stopped from leaving Australia unless they pay, or make arrangements to pay.  Read the links again.

 

Still waiting on a link from you about a dollar value the ATO will not chase.  Requested said link many time, yet nothing.  It's just your opinion. 

 

We have one member's account of a $600 debt from 8 years ago.  Things change over 8 years.  Say the member flew back to Australia 7 years ago, perhaps that ATO may have caused him some issues.  

 

Still waiting on that link. 

 

 

Don't move the goal posts when you're wrong.

 

You posted, did you not "Links have already been posted about students with HECS debt not being allowed to leave Australia."

 

When I asked for proof, as per usual you go off on a tangent about the ATO being able to  stop people leaving the country.

 

We know that and it wasn't the question.

 

This link is from an Omdudman's report and pretty much stipulates what I've said.

And before you crap on and say it's an old report, the same structures are till in place.

 

Here's an excerpt

 

ATO Debt Write Off Procedures

2.10. The ATO advised that writing off tax debt on the basis that it is uneconomical
to pursue has traditionally been restricted to cases where there is considered to be
little prospect of subsequent account activity, such as debts involving:

Smaller amounts where an entity has ceased business and through various
checks, the tax officer is satisfied that there are no assets to pursue and no
egregious behaviour on the part of directors.

Deceased taxpayers where there is no prospect of collection or it would be
insensitive to do so.

Long term, untraceable taxpayers.

2.11. Generally write-off activity has occurred on a case-by-case basis. However, at
times the ATO has implemented bulk write-off processes to remove large numbers of
debt cases in respect of which there is considered to be little possibility of collection.
Such a bulk write-off process occurred in 2007–08, resulting in write-off of over
240,000 income tax debts as uneconomical to pursue.

 

The ATO advised that this bulk write-off process is continuing. It mostly involves tax debts of less than $2,500,
where the ATO considers that writing off these debts is the most appropriate and
efficient action, but also the most effective in terms of outcomes for both the
community and the taxpayer.
 

Edit# A more recent article.

 

https://www.pkf.com.au/insights/when-is-an-ato-debt-really-written-off/

 

The confusion arises as the Commissioner has a practice of not pursuing tax debts they consider are not economic to recover - a term they refer to as a “debt write-off”.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Will27

[ozfarang]

@KhunHeinekenyou are not prevented from leaving Australia with a HELP/HECS debt. A person with a HELP/HECS debt must inform the ATO within 7 days of leaving the country.

If you are earning over the minimum $51550, 2022/2023 tax year you are required to make compulsory payment towards your debt regardless of where you live in the world.

The requirements to pay you debt is ongoing (providing you earn over the minimum salary) until the debt is settled. The balance is written of if you die before paying the full amount.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-03/qld-hecs-help-ex-pats-indexation-university-debt/102427526

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Study-and-training-support-loans/Overseas-repayments/

 

[Will27]

17 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

@KhunHeinekenyou are not prevented from leaving Australia with a HELP/HECS debt. A person with a HELP/HECS debt must inform the ATO within 7 days of leaving the country.

If you are earning over the minimum $51550, 2022/2023 tax year you are required to make compulsory payment towards your debt regardless of where you live in the world.

The requirements to pay you debt is ongoing (providing you earn over the minimum salary) until the debt is settled. The balance is written of if you die before paying the full amount.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-03/qld-hecs-help-ex-pats-indexation-university-debt/102427526

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Study-and-training-support-loans/Overseas-repayments/

 

He pretty much read somewhere that the ATO can prevent people from leaving Australia, and then put his own spin on it and tried to claim people with HECS debts were being stopped at the airport.

[ozfarang]

51 minutes ago, Will27 said:

He pretty much read somewhere that the ATO can prevent people from leaving Australia, and then put his own spin on it and tried to claim people with HECS debts were being stopped at the airport.

Afraid to say KH is WRONG. Then again he nevers admits he is wrong, just deflects the criticism and continues the spin

 

[Olmate]

6 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

Afraid to say KH is WRONG. Then again he nevers admits he is wrong, just deflects the criticism and continues the spin

 

Dont be afraid, he is a troll who needs another enforced holiday.

[Will27]

44 minutes ago, ozfarang said:

Afraid to say KH is WRONG. Then again he nevers admits he is wrong, just deflects the criticism and continues the spin

 

Yep

 

And he'll be back with a 1000 word reply on why you're wrong, I'm wrong and pretty much everyone else is wrong.

 

It's everyone else you now, he's fine.

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:55 AM, Seeall said:

they sent snail mail to me overseas for recivery of AUD $ 2 ....  my US friend thought it was most amusing....

I have some friends with similar experiences.  In your case, the cost of printing and postage is more than the debt. 

 

The point I am making is, $2, $200, $2000, $20,000 etc - it's all the same process, and whilst we may not care while sitting here in Thailand, should we want to or need to return to Australia, where we would then be under Australian jurisdiction, things may get nasty over any amount of debt, no matter how small.  Of course, there's no individual responsible or accountable for it, it's just the system.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/26/2023 at 7:05 AM, Will27 said:

Don't move the goal posts when you're wrong.

I didn't move the goal posts.  You just don't see the pitch in between the goal posts. 

 

On 9/26/2023 at 7:05 AM, Will27 said:

ATO Debt Write Off Procedures

2.10. The ATO advised that writing off tax debt on the basis that it is uneconomical
to pursue has traditionally been restricted to cases where there is considered to be
little prospect of subsequent account activity, such as debts involving:

Smaller amounts where an entity has ceased business and through various
checks, the tax officer is satisfied that there are no assets to pursue and no
egregious behaviour on the part of directors.

Deceased taxpayers where there is no prospect of collection or it would be
insensitive to do so.

Long term, untraceable taxpayers.

2.11. Generally write-off activity has occurred on a case-by-case basis. However, at
times the ATO has implemented bulk write-off processes to remove large numbers of
debt cases in respect of which there is considered to be little possibility of collection.
Such a bulk write-off process occurred in 2007–08, resulting in write-off of over
240,000 income tax debts as uneconomical to pursue.

 

The ATO advised that this bulk write-off process is continuing. It mostly involves tax debts of less than $2,500,
where the ATO considers that writing off these debts is the most appropriate and
efficient action, but also the most effective in terms of outcomes for both the
community and the taxpayer.
 

Edit# A more recent article.

 

https://www.pkf.com.au/insights/when-is-an-ato-debt-really-written-off/

 

The confusion arises as the Commissioner has a practice of not pursuing tax debts they consider are not economic to recover - a term they refer to as a “debt write-off”.

What is the dollar figure for write off? 

 

You claim to know.  What is it?  Tell us all. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:18 AM, ozfarang said:

@KhunHeinekenyou are not prevented from leaving Australia with a HELP/HECS debt. A person with a HELP/HECS debt must inform the ATO within 7 days of leaving the country.

If you are earning over the minimum $51550, 2022/2023 tax year you are required to make compulsory payment towards your debt regardless of where you live in the world.

The requirements to pay you debt is ongoing (providing you earn over the minimum salary) until the debt is settled. The balance is written of if you die before paying the full amount.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-03/qld-hecs-help-ex-pats-indexation-university-debt/102427526

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Study-and-training-support-loans/Overseas-repayments/

 

The guy in your link is the same guy in a link I provided.  Interesting story. 

 

Yes, you have to pay even if overseas.  Say someone doesn't pay, and returns home to see their family for a short time.  Do you think there is no enforcement?  They just get a free pass.  Nothing happens. 

 

Enlighten me as to what may happen to them. 

[ozfarang]

7 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

The guy in your link is the same guy in a link I provided.  Interesting story. 

 

Yes, you have to pay even if overseas.  Say someone doesn't pay, and returns home to see their family for a short time.  Do you think there is no enforcement?  They just get a free pass.  Nothing happens. 

 

Enlighten me as to what may happen to them. 

I won't be enlightening you about anything. You're such a no it all with an opinion on everything, find out for yourself

[Will27]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have some friends with similar experiences.  In your case, the cost of printing and postage is more than the debt. 

 

The point I am making is, $2, $200, $2000, $20,000 etc - it's all the same process, and whilst we may not care while sitting here in Thailand, should we want to or need to return to Australia, where we would then be under Australian jurisdiction, things may get nasty over any amount of debt, no matter how small.  Of course, there's no individual responsible or accountable for it, it's just the system.  

Honestly, you have no <deleted> idea about it.

 

"It's all the same process".

Of course it's not.

 

People with a debt get a generated letter advising them as such.

You honestly think the ATO will start enforcement action over a $2.00 debt?

[Will27]

8 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I didn't move the goal posts.  You just don't see the pitch in between the goal posts. 

 

What is the dollar figure for write off? 

 

You claim to know.  What is it?  Tell us all. 

You did move the goal posts.

You said people have been stopped from leaving Australia with a HECS debt.

Yet when asked to provide proof, you, as usual it must be said post a long winded

reply about DPO's whilst not answering the question.

 

If you bothered to read it specifically says.

 

The ATO advised that this bulk write-off process is continuing. It mostly involves tax debts of less than $2,500,

 

Jesus mate, don't hear from you for a week and then it's like your meds wear off and you rush

back to the forum to post on everything Australia related.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:22 AM, ozfarang said:

I won't be enlightening you about anything. You're such a no it all with an opinion on everything, find out for yourself

Fail. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:38 AM, Will27 said:

Honestly, you have no <deleted> idea about it.

 

"It's all the same process".

Of course it's not.

 

People with a debt get a generated letter advising them as such.

You honestly think the ATO will start enforcement action over a $2.00 debt?

You say I have no idea, yet, you post no links showing what amount of debt the ATO will, or will not chase. 

 

How about you stick to some facts, and not get personal?

 

The whole system is migrating to computers doing the heavy lifting.  To a computer, a debt is a debt, thus, a letter is generated.  Once that letter is in play, one is on the ATO merry-go-round.

 

Do you really think expats can hide from their ATO debt because it's small?  Once again, post a link to show what the ATO calls "small debt."  

 

Post a link, or STFU, because it's you has no idea.   

[KhunHeineken]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:44 AM, Will27 said:

You did move the goal posts.

You said people have been stopped from leaving Australia with a HECS debt.

Yet when asked to provide proof, you, as usual it must be said post a long winded

reply about DPO's whilst not answering the question.

 

If you bothered to read it specifically says.

 

The ATO advised that this bulk write-off process is continuing. It mostly involves tax debts of less than $2,500,

 

Jesus mate, don't hear from you for a week and then it's like your meds wear off and you rush

back to the forum to post on everything Australia related.

 

 

No, I didn't move the goal posts, you are just a troll. 

 

Provide links.  I have.  Where's your links?

 

Jesus, you come on here and play the poster, not the post, and provide nothing but your own opinion. 

 

I've posted link after link after link, to the point the mods have stepped in deleting posts because they have the same links, because you refuse to accept them. 

 

Post some links of your own for examination. 

 

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

11 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I've posted link after link after link, to the point the mods have stepped in deleting posts because they have the same links, because you refuse to accept them. 

Could that be because this topic is for the Australian Aged Pension and not what you are referring too.

 

Perhaps you can start a new topic as it gets very boring reading stuff that doesn't fit the topic one wants to read about, especially when you guys go back and forth beating your chests with nothing to talk of that relates to the Australia Aged Pension.

[giddyup]

On 9/24/2023 at 9:36 PM, KhunHeineken said:

So, it's only your opinion then. 

 

You forget, the legal public servants are permanently employed, on a salary, they are not outsourced and paid for a job.  They get paid every fortnight regardless if they have 10 cases on the go, or 20 cases on the go, they still get paid the same. 

 

Sure, but you are yet to state, or link, an actual dollar figure as to what is not a "viable" tax debt to pursue.  Is it $500, $5000, or more?  You are the one claiming they will not chase a small debt, so what is "small?" 

I owed the ATO $650 according to them. I had a letter from them saying they wouldn't pursue the debt, but I paid anyway. No idea what the maximum amount that they would write off would be.

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Could that be because this topic is for the Australian Aged Pension and not what you are referring too.

 

Perhaps you can start a new topic as it gets very boring reading stuff that doesn't fit the topic one wants to read about, especially when you guys go back and forth beating your chests with nothing to talk of that relates to the Australia Aged Pension.

Links posted have proven, beyond doubt, that the Australia aged pension is deemed to be an in income by the Australian government. 

 

Further links have proven that an expat pensioner living in Thailand, for years, can in no way argue their case they are a resident for taxation purposes. 

 

There was even a link posted by another member from an ATO forum where an ATO staff member informed someone they should pay 32.5% tax of their pension if retiring overseas.  It was the "Bob and Blake" link.  

 

The government has proposed changes in their "in tray" that shows the 90 year old laws surrounding tax residency MAY change in the future for a simple physical presence time based law.  Many links provided about this also.

 

However, here you are, saying none of this is relevant to the old age pension for an expat living in Thailand. 

[KhunHeineken]

8 hours ago, giddyup said:

I owed the ATO $650 according to them. I had a letter from them saying they wouldn't pursue the debt, but I paid anyway. No idea what the maximum amount that they would write off would be.

I've never disputed that the ATO write of debts. 

 

I have only asked a certain member that continually posts on here that, basically, any debt accumulated by a non resident for tax purposes will be written off because it probably will not be that much.

 

I have requested the member on many occasions to supply a link setting out what dollar value the ATO will chase, and will not chase.  Still waiting for that link, yet he continues to bait and troll me.  

 

Given we are all living longer, say you retire at 65 on a pension, and move to Thailand, for good.  That would / could be about 15 years, or more, depending on the individual's health, of 32.5% of the aged pension accruing in ATO debt, although I am on the opinion Centrelink will withhold the 32.5%, based on the information given to them by immigration.  For those on a part pension, or self funded, i can't see the ATO allowing years of non resident tax to just die with an expat overseas.   

 

Take into consideration the thousands of retired expats living outside of Australia, and I hardly think it's a small debt that the ATO will write off, either individually, or collectively.