Australian Aged Pension

[scorecard]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:53 PM, georgegeorgia said:

Ahhh your all up the Shxt  creek without a paddle 😂

Yawn / ignore...

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 4:45 AM, LosLobo said:

I unreservedly apologise to @My Ego and this forum for unknowingly posting an incorrect viewpoint and the out of context information of ATO Blake.

 

Though I have not seen any definitive information to say otherwise, I can accept my viewpoint on paying tax on the AAP in Australia was incorrect, through the preponderance of anecdotal evidence here.

 

I suggest my error was accepting the ATO community Blake as gospel instead of consulting my own 'tax professional'.

 

Paradoxically Blake as an ATO nominated tax professional should have qualified his response by including a rider that his decision may not apply if a DTA was in force.

 

Seems many others also may have failed to factor in the DTA issue as well, we were lucky to have @Norbra's input.

 

Nevertheless, on the personal side, the consensus of no tax payable on the AAP in Australia, is welcome as my Thai tax liability will be minor and any tax on minor bank interest in Australia will be offset by SAPTO and possibly no Australian tax return will be necessary.

 

The sad part of this saga is that this forum once a Book of Knowledge is now contaminated with over 600 posts of repetitive seemingly 'bogus' information.

 

Possibly going forward we could request this forum be closed and a new chapter opened.

 

This will not necessarily rid the forum of the 'resident troll' but now we are all cognisant of what havoc 'feeding the troll' has wrought.

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0J9s0000002ngF/p00172380

Australia is changing its double tax agreements with all countries, I believe there are 41 of them, which includes Thailand.  The last tax agreement with with Thailand was in 1989, so it's 25 years old.  

 

I have posted a more recent tax agreement with Germany.  You will see it's 15% tax from the source country, being Australia. 

 

It's only my opinion, but my way of thinking is the proposed changes to tax residency will coincide with changes to most tax treaties Australia have with other countries. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 5:51 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Seriously, we will continue to go around the merry go round until you get it, i.e. you can interpret it yourself, however I will give you a BIG clue, the key word that relates to Article 19 is:

1. Remuneration (other than a pension)

 

so if 1. in Article 19 doesn't apply to you, neither do the other Sections and Subsections in Article 19.

 

 

Oh yes you can.

 

I will say it again, "forget about Article 19" because there is no other, (from Section 1. Article 19:

 

1. Remuneration (other than a pension)

 

and as Article 18 relates to Pensions and annuities only, as mentioned 1,000 times, Article 19 doesn't apply to Article 18 if there is no

 

1. Remuneration (other than a pension) 

 

 

Highlighting Section 2 was to spell it out further for you, albeit it that it does go onto say that if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or a national of, that other state.

 

What they are talking about is any individual government employee who gets paid a Government Pension for their services to the government, while in their employ, after discharge, etc etc etc, NOTHING TO DO WITH AGE PENSIONS, therefore Article 18 relates to Age Pensions, but looks like that didn't work, so have another read, might take you 4-5 reads to sink in.....LoL 

 

2. Any pension paid to an individual in respect of services rendered in the discharge of governmental functions to one of the Contracting States or a political subdivision of that State or a local authority of that State shall be taxable only in that State. Such pension shall, however, be taxable only in the other Contracting State if the recipient is a resident of, and a citizen or national of, that other State.

 

Subsection (a) & (b) of Section 1 in Article 19 don't apply because of what, wait for it........, there is....., no what ?

1. Remuneration (other than a pension)

All a moot point now, isn't it?

 

The tax treaty was rolled out a couple of weeks ago with some conjecture about the "provisions" of Article 19, and how they relate to Article 19. 

 

Australia's tax treaty will change in the future, most likely sooner rather than later. 

 

If Australia's tax treaty with Thailand is anything like the treaty with Germany, is a 15% tax on pensions.  As you say, "no ifs, not buts." 

 

Or, can you post an "interpretation" of the Germany treaty that says pensions pay no tax in Australia, and overseas? 

 

If you're an Aussie pensioner living in Germany, it appears you are paying 15% tax in Australia. 

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Australia is changing its double tax agreements with all countries, I believe there are 41 of them, which includes Thailand.  The last tax agreement with with Thailand was in 1989, so it's 25 years old.  

 

I have posted a more recent tax agreement with Germany.  You will see it's 15% tax from the source country, being Australia. 

 

It's only my opinion, but my way of thinking is the proposed changes to tax residency will coincide with changes to most tax treaties Australia have with other countries. 

AFAIK such treaties are not born overnight, they have a prolonged gestation period while government bureaucrats on both sides dot every i and cross every t.

There is also the question of how much funding on both sides is dedicated to drafting said agreements.

If there are 41 DTA's, do you have any information on where Thailand sits in the queue of new DTA's to be negotiated?

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

If you're an Aussie pensioner living in Germany, it appears you are paying 15% tax in Australia. 

I suggest it would be a good idea to wait for a pensioner living in Germany to give their take on whether they are taxed, instead of speculating.

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:29 AM, 4MyEgo said:

How's that ?

You can be a tax resident of both countries, or a double non resident of both countries. 

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:29 AM, 4MyEgo said:

If I elect to be a tax resident of Australia by meeting the criteria,

You never mentioned "meeting the criteria." 

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:29 AM, 4MyEgo said:

You keep saying that, but an Age Pensioner living in Thailand only pays tax in Thailand, if Thailand wishes to tax the pension, then it will be deemed and income. It really boils down to how the Thai Government wants to approach it, that said, they haven't taxed Age Pensioners from Australia as far as I know, so why would they now.

Thailand will tax on "worldwide income" the same as Australia, and many other countries do. 

 

It appears Aussie pensioners have been paying 15% tax in Germany since 2016. 

 

I await your "interpretation" on Australia's tax treaty with Germany as to how and why Aussie retirees don't have to pay tax on their Australian pension iin Australia, when living n Germany. 

 

You did claim, the pension is tax free in Australia and every other country.  I disagreed.

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:29 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Um, excuse me, aren't you the one saying you are a tax resident of Australia, yet here you are living in the LOS..

Correct.  I am using the loopholes in Australia's 90 year old laws that allows it.  That's set to change when the proposed changes are passed.  

 

What you fail to understand is, the proposed changes to residency are a physical presence and time based model.  There will be nothing to "elect" and no loopholes.  

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:29 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Yet you have provided nothing to show that I am wrong, yet you keep deflecting, talking about changes coming, or are you know talking about the age pension etc etc, but we all know your in a corner and are WRONG.

 

I was researching the "provisions" in Article 19, because Article 18 is reliant upon them.  

 

I then saw the more recent tax treaty with Germany, and I have posted a link showing Australia is looking to update all of its tax treaties with various countries, so even if you are correct, it appears it's only a matter of time before Australia's tax treaty with Thailand is updated, and if it's similar to the tax treaty with Germany, pensioners will be taxed 15% of their pension in Australia.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:36 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Incoming missile.......prepare for impact......LoL

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0JRF000000iq692AA/p00272926

Yet, Jim Quinn is to be completely relied upon. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:39 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Careful now, as all it takes is one link to sink your yellow submarine.

 

https://community.ato.gov.au/s/question/a0JRF000000iq692AA/p00272926

Question:  Why didn't Jim Quinn mention Germany?  His advice is completely wrong in relation to Germany, and possibly some other countries, isn't it? 

 

Incoming hand grenade.

 

It's from the Minister of Finance and the Treasurer.  I think they are a little higher than Jim Quinn. 

 

https://www.financeminister.gov.au/media-release/2015/11/13/new-tax-treaty-signed-germany

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:50 AM, 4MyEgo said:

I am not an expert in this or any matter when it comes to this stuff, that said, my thoughts would be to just keep enjoying life in Thailand, until you receive a letter from the Thai Revenue Department, if ever.

 

I say that because, they know Age Pensioners are small fry and just get by on their Age Pensions, month by month and also have the exchange rates to contend with.

They didn't mind take 15% of the "small fry" that live in Germany.  Why would Thailand be any different?

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:50 AM, 4MyEgo said:

On the other hand, if a "wealthy pensioner", not your typical Age Pensioner on 50,000 odd baht a month is bringing in big bucks, then I believe they will have to obtain a TFN and lodge a return, if tax hasn't been taken out in the country they sourced their funds from.

Are you talking about a Super pension, which is bigger than the aged pension? 

 

I think Thailand will eventually follow other countries and just tax all worldwide income.

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:53 AM, georgegeorgia said:

Ahhh your all up the Shxt  creek without a paddle 😂

Two ways to look at it. 

 

Those that believe the double tax treaty with Thailand meant they pay no tax in Australia will not be happy with a possible 15% tax in the future, and those who believe the 32.5% was coming, will be happy with only 15%.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:09 AM, 4MyEgo said:

believe I have provided enough information as others have to accept that the Age Pension is not taxable by Australia if residing in Thailand as a resident, that said, under the DTA, the Age Pension is taxable in Thailand, "if they so want to enforce it", however, as they haven't done so since 1989 when the DTA came into effect, I can't see them taxing Age Pensioners in Thailand, they are after the bigger fish IMO.

Been taxing Aussie pensioners in Germany since 2016, and possibly other countries.  The tax treaty is not the cloak of tax protection for pensioners that you claim it to be. 

 

Why would the treaty with Thailand look any different to that of Germany's when it is updated, and Australia is updating all of its tax treaties, particularly as I would think there are a lot more pensioners living in Thailand than in Germany, thus, more tax revenue. 

 

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:13 AM, Lacessit said:

IMO if you are in Thailand more than 180 days ( FY? Calendar? ) you will be taxed by the Thai authorities on income.

Someone solely on the OAP in Australia has the pension to report as assessable. However, after thresholds and offsets are taken into account, no tax is payable anyway.

It's a moot point whether submitting a tax return in Australia means one has been taxed, even though they actually paid no tax.

I tend to agree the accent is on the word WEALTHY, although as yet that has not been defined by the Thai authorities.

It should be common sense government pensions are not taxable anywhere on the planet, but that would mean thousands if not hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats would be out of a job.

Australia taxes foreign pensions, why wouldn't Thailand?

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/your-tax-return/instructions-to-complete-your-tax-return/mytax-instructions/2022/income/foreign-income/foreign-pension-and-annuity

 

"Most foreign pensions and annuities are taxable in Australia, even if tax was withheld from your payment by the country from which the payment came."

 

This is interesting.

 

"If you are an Australian resident and received income from overseas, you must show your assessable foreign income here, even if tax was taken out of the income in the foreign country.

 

Foreign income that is exempt from Australian tax may still be taken into account to work out the amount of tax you have to pay on your other income.

 

Under our tax treaties, foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income paid to (and the tax withheld from) Australian resident taxpayers. We use that information to check tax returns. Make sure you show your foreign income fully and correctly on your tax return.

 

If your foreign pension or annuity is paid from a country with which Australia has a tax treaty, you may be able to arrange to not have tax withheld from future payments from that country."

 

 

"foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income" - I guess that would be reciprocal, so Australia would be informing Thailand of your pension, and amount. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 10:53 AM, 4MyEgo said:

Lets not forget the DTA has been in force since 1989, yet here we are in 2024, some 35 years on, and I haven't heard of one Australian Age Pensioner stating that the Thai authorities tax his Age Pension. Not saying that they are not within their rights. All countries have codes and regulations, yet seldom enforce them.

I'm living in Thailand yet still appear to be a resident for tax purposes of Australia.  I derive an income from Australia, not being a pension, and I haven't paid one cent of non resident tax in years.  I have explained why this has been allowed to happen for so long, and why it's set to change in the near future. 

 

So, it's not only the pensioners not paying tax, there's a  lot of others not paying tax, including myself.  The party couldn't last forever. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:05 AM, Lacessit said:

The most critical aspect appears to be whether Thai  Immigration will be demanding a tax number, or evidence of a tax return, when any foreigner fronts up for a retirement extension.

Why not go down the Australian route?  If you don't give your bank your tax number, they withhold tax at the highest marginal rate, including for deposits.  Easy way to enforce compliance. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:21 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

I somehow can't see that happening, and the reason I say that is, because think how many expats here use an agent because they don't have the funds to put in the bank.

 

The above said, that would rattle a lot of people's extra cash flow, agent's, immigration officers and the like all the way to the top.

 

They might do that to those on Marriage extensions and Retirement extensions that show money in their accounts.

 

Now if they go down that avenue, I might just get me an agent as the interest you get from banks here is pitiful, and you pay 17% tax on that interest, so I am told.

 

If I left that money in the bank back home, even after paying 10% withholding tax, the interest would be more than enough to cover the agents costs + some left for me.

 

There's more than one way to skin a fat cat, just my opinion.

I've always paid an agent.

 

My 800k baht sits in my fund at home making me a lot more than a Thai bank gives me, and it's safer. 

 

What it makes me is more than what the agent charges, so why would I tie it up in a Thai bank? 

 

This is nothing new,  It's just that a lot of guys only see that their extension cost them 1900 baht, but they don't look at the lost earnings on the 800k. 

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Australia taxes foreign pensions, why wouldn't Thailand?

 

https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/your-tax-return/instructions-to-complete-your-tax-return/mytax-instructions/2022/income/foreign-income/foreign-pension-and-annuity

 

"Most foreign pensions and annuities are taxable in Australia, even if tax was withheld from your payment by the country from which the payment came."

 

This is interesting.

 

"If you are an Australian resident and received income from overseas, you must show your assessable foreign income here, even if tax was taken out of the income in the foreign country.

 

Foreign income that is exempt from Australian tax may still be taken into account to work out the amount of tax you have to pay on your other income.

 

Under our tax treaties, foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income paid to (and the tax withheld from) Australian resident taxpayers. We use that information to check tax returns. Make sure you show your foreign income fully and correctly on your tax return.

 

If your foreign pension or annuity is paid from a country with which Australia has a tax treaty, you may be able to arrange to not have tax withheld from future payments from that country."

 

 

"foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income" - I guess that would be reciprocal, so Australia would be informing Thailand of your pension, and amount. 

IIRC other retirees on this and another thread have posted that when they went to the Thai RD to register for a tax number, they were asked what their income was. When they said age pension only, the RD official said they did not need one. Make of that what you will.

You are talking at cross-purposes, the point of this thread is Australian pensioners who are living in Thailand. No-one gives a rat's @rse about how foreigners with pensions are taxed in Australia.

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I've always paid an agent.

 

My 800k baht sits in my fund at home making me a lot more than a Thai bank gives me, and it's safer. 

 

What it makes me is more than what the agent charges, so why would I tie it up in a Thai bank? 

What the agent is doing is illegal, facilitated by corruption.

If there is ever a new broom in your Immigration locale, there is a risk your visa will be cancelled.

Then you will be up sh!t creek in a barbed wire canoe, without a paddle.

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 11:33 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Might be time to see an agent, come next retirement extension ?

 

I say that because, immigration won't allow their piece of cake to be taken away from them, all the way to the top IMO. Talking about all of those expats that don't have the funds to put in the bank and use agents for a fee which is also split with you know who.

 

As mentioned, more than one way to skin a fat cat oi.

 

 

Makes you wonder if taxing pensions is designed to push pensioners under the 65k a month for their extensions, thus pushing them onto agents.  Everyone cleans up.  The revenue department, the agents, immigration, and those above.  

[Lacessit]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Why not go down the Australian route?  If you don't give your bank your tax number, they withhold tax at the highest marginal rate, including for deposits.  Easy way to enforce compliance. 

My bank has my TFN. Next.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Makes you wonder if taxing pensions is designed to push pensioners under the 65k a month for their extensions, thus pushing them onto agents.  Everyone cleans up.  The revenue department, the agents, immigration, and those above.  

Do you have any evidence foreign pensions are being taxed in Thailand?

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:32 PM, Lacessit said:

I agree word of mouth from foreigners who are using the illegal agent route sounds best.

You make the agents sound like they are part of some deep underground criminal underworld, they are not.  Visa agencies are everywhere in shops, and advertise widely.  Everyone knows what's going on.  It's been going on for decades. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:56 PM, Lacessit said:

Getting a non-O visa is a different process.

As I understand it, 25 - 35K baht for an extension obtained by bribery is the going rate.

For 15K, what you are supposed to get is rapid service at Immigration, and all your paperwork ducks in a row, assembled for you by the agent. Including a legit 800 K baht in the bank.

And for a few more baht, you get all of that, plus a multi re-entry permit, and no need for the 800k in the bank, and they take care of the 90 day reports as well. 

 

The cost is covered, with some left over, by having your 800k baht back in Australia actually working for you.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:11 AM, Lacessit said:

The probability of someone turning on me in such a public place would be rather low.

I might be 80. However, I do keep myself in good shape, and I am bigger than most Thais.

I'd agree I should pick my battles. That does not mean I become a doormat for everybody.

Stick to picking your battles on the keyboard. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/10/2024 at 2:06 AM, Artisi said:

Why not apply if eligible, any claim will be backdated to the day you applied.

The money will be backdates, but will "the time"  out of the 2 years?  One would this it would be, but maybe the 2 years starts on the approval day, which means another 70 days on top of the 2 years. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:21 AM, 4MyEgo said:

An article of the new tax in Thailand that I found interesting today, here on AseanNow with my comments below.

 

https://www.huahintoday.com/local-news/expat-tax-twists-in-thailand-navigating-the-new-landscape-in-2024/

 

I would suggest when the article is talking about pensions below, inverted commas, they are not talking about Age Pensions, however, they can tax Age Pensions if they decide to under Article 18 of the DTA for Aussies, but can't see this happening personally as they could have done this from 1989 when the DTA was agreed upon, so why bother now ?

 

I believe this is more so aimed at the "Wealthy Pensioners" drawing down from sourced funds like superannuation schemes and other investment vehicle's that will be taxed in Thailand, and those individuals being taxed here in Thailand can apply for credits back in their country, where the funds came from.

 

Makes sense to me as Age Pensions do not get taxed in Australia if they are a resident of Thailand, therefore there would be no credits applicable for Age Pensioners.

 

Copy and pasted from the article below.

 

"Pensions, while taxed in Thailand, may find some relief through double taxation agreements with the home country".

 

"Wealthy Pensioners":

• Minimum age: 50 years old.
• Minimum annual pension or passive income: US$80,000.
• Alternative option: If your income falls between US$40,000 and US$80,000, you can compensate with a minimum investment of US$250,000 in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property.

 

 

 

Will be interesting for those transferring larger sums to Thailand to set themselves up for retirement.  Eg. house / condo purchase, car, 800k in the bank, a business etc. 

 

Will larger transfers be counted as the "over $80,000USD for that year? 

[Artisi]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The money will be backdates, but will "the time"  out of the 2 years?  One would this it would be, but maybe the 2 years starts on the approval day, which means another 70 days on top of the 2 years. 

Assume you are talking about portability, can't answer that question but suggest more than likely from applications date. 

I have found centrelink to be very precise with their procedures, if you owe them money they soon let you know, likewise if they owe you money - it's paid and usually quickly. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

AFAIK such treaties are not born overnight, they have a prolonged gestation period while government bureaucrats on both sides dot every i and cross every t.

There is also the question of how much funding on both sides is dedicated to drafting said agreements.

If there are 41 DTA's, do you have any information on where Thailand sits in the queue of new DTA's to be negotiated?

Here's a good article from the first page of a Google search.

 

It explains tax treaties very well, and the steps in making one.

 

https://bristax.com.au/tax-articles/double-tax-agreement/

 

"The journey towards signing a bilateral DTA follows a well-defined set of steps. This process typically spans approximately two years, though it can take longer, and involves various stages to ensure that both countries involved reach a mutually agreeable DTA."

 

I have no idea where Australia is in the queue, but a look at the Germany tax treaty shows it's very similar, but the taxing of pensions by Australia has been added.  I'm guessing if that's all Australia wants to amend, it would not take too long. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I suggest it would be a good idea to wait for a pensioner living in Germany to give their take on whether they are taxed, instead of speculating.

Well, some members on here, including yourself, have been BIG on THE LAW and LEGISLATION.  I've posted the tax treaty with Germany and it clearly states 15% tax on pensions from the source country, being Australia.  That is THE LAW.

 

It is possible Aussie pensioners living in Germany fall through some cracks, maybe, could a similar tax treaty with Thailand in the future also have the same "cracks?"  Maybe.  We'll have to see.  

 

However, as I have said in the past, when the "payer" (Centerlink / government) is also the "taxer" (ATO / government) it stands to reason the tax will be withheld, rather than chased later.  

[KhunHeineken]

42 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IIRC other retirees on this and another thread have posted that when they went to the Thai RD to register for a tax number, they were asked what their income was. When they said age pension only, the RD official said they did not need one. Make of that what you will.

So, would that mean those living of a business, or rental income, or an annuity etc etc would just have to tell immigration "I'm living on a pension" and bingo, no Thai tax.  I find that hard to believe. 

 

You are on a part pension.  What are you going to say to immigration about your supplement income?

 

44 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You are talking at cross-purposes, the point of this thread is Australian pensioners who are living in Thailand. No-one gives a rat's @rse about how foreigners with pensions are taxed in Australia.

You missed the "interesting" part. 

 

"foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income" -so wouldn't Australia tell Thai tax officials about the source income of Australians living in Thailand? 

 

[KhunHeineken]

41 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

What the agent is doing is illegal, facilitated by corruption.

If there is ever a new broom in your Immigration locale, there is a risk your visa will be cancelled.

Then you will be up sh!t creek in a barbed wire canoe, without a paddle.

Well, at least you didn't report my post for discussing illegal activity. 

 

Your argument comes up occasionally.  I have considered it.  I just can't see it happening.  It's been going on for decades, and as another member has said, goes all the way to the top.  

 

Prostitution is illegal here also, yet look at it here. 

 

Corruption is endemic in Thailand, we all know this.  Whilst I do not condone corruption, I am merely a guest in Thailand, and go with the flow.  Visa agents and their offerings will still be around long after I have passed.  It's too lucrative. 

 

To be honest, I am surprised they haven't raised the 800k to 1 million, and the 65k to 80k.  They would do so under the guise of higher cost of living etc, but it really would be to drum up more business for the agents, which funnels more funds through to those at the top.  

 

There's been many cases of guys trying to to the right thing, and no doubt they think they are saving themselves a baht, waiting all day at immigration only to be told they are a photocopy short, which means coming back tomorrow.  It's been alleged in other threads, over the years, this is designed to frustrate retirees and push them onto agents. 

 

I know an elderly Aussie retiree who now has mobility issues, so he has no choice but to pay an agent, so it's not just about the 800k in a Thai bank for some.