Australian Aged Pension

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 9:50 PM, Artisi said:

I  should have been more specific and said, returning "just before applying" as this is what I thought HK was implying. So I would say 2 years prior to applying, portability should be granted. 

As scorecard said, ring Centrelink Hobart - straight from the official source. 

Yes, that was what I was referring to.

 

The 35 years aside, as someone could have started working at 16, we have one member posting you can go back to Australia, and just be inside Australia at pension age, apply, and go. I found this surprising, if it's the case.

 

You are posting one should go back to Australia 2 years before pension age, apply, so can fly straight out with portability.

 

Other members are also saying different things. 

 

Does anyone actually know the answer? 

 

I used the 20 years as example, but it could be 15, 10, or even 5 years outside of Australia before pension age.  How long must you be inside Australia before pension age, to apply on the day, be granted, and fly out with portability. 

 

I was thinking 6 months to re-establish residency, mainly because one could provide a 6 month lease on a property as documentary evidence of their "intention" to continue to reside in Australia. 

 

If so, 6 month prior would be a lot better than 2 years after for portability.  You can see what I am getting at. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:16 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Too easy....

 

Generally, this means they must be residing in Australia and physically present in Australia when they lodge their claim.

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

 

Yes, we all know this.

 

Many expats have gone home and done the 2 years, BS'ing Centerlink that they have the "intention" of remaining in Australia.  Well discussed on this forum in the past.

 

What I am getting at is, what about prior to turning pension age?  Could one go back to Australia, rent a little 1 bedroom unit somewhere, get the electricity / gas connected, maybe buy a cheap secondhand car, join the local bowlo etc etc, and BS Centerlink with these documents to only have to do 6 months to achieve portability, immediately on their pension birthday?

 

Or, is there a define amount of time, like the 2 years, one must return to Australia BEFORE pension age, or could one BS their way with the above appearance of their "intention" to remain in Australia?  

 

As mentioned, 6 months before is a lot easier than 2 years after.  

 

Is it possible?   

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:31 AM, Artisi said:

You can return anytime you like, before or after you get to pension age - however, there would be no portability for  2 years after pension being granted. 

You have contradicted yourself.

 

You have said 2 years prior to fly out soon after being granted.  Now you are saying fly back "anytime" but you can't leave with portability for 2 years after, which we all know, if that's the case. one may as well fly back the day before their pension birthday.    

 

I would find this strange as well. 

 

Once again, after being outside Australia for some years, how long would Centerlink think acceptable, after producing some documents, to BS them about one's "intention" of remaining in Australia?

 

We have always discussed the 2 years after the pension birthday.  What about how long before the pension birthday to fly out immediately after being granted?   

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:58 PM, Nemises said:

Are you sure? I thought that if you returned 2 years before pension age, there would be portability immediately after pension being granted. 

I'm thinking it could be less than 2 years, if one was to create the appearance of being "domiciled" in Australia. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:05 PM, Mason45 said:

I didn't return to Australia for 2 years prior as I had commitments in Thailand. I'm now 80 years old, worked for the Department of Defense all my working life. I also did military service, I have an Australian Service medal and I still don't qualify. Need I say my thoughts about Australia, a once great country of which we were lucky to spend our childhoods in.

I was under the impression that, under an old scheme, back in your time, if you did 20 years in the defense force, you got a pension.  Correct me if I am wrong. 

 

The gold card, however, is very different. 

 

I have edited this post after reading a post from another member. 

 

If you are receiving a military pension (I thought you were not)  do you feel you are entitled to both pensions, the military pension and the aged pension?

Edited September 24 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:22 PM, scorecard said:

Unfortunately military service / war service has no bearing on gaining the OAP.

An ex-serviceman can not be on both pensions.  It's due to receiving other forms of incomes and thresholds. 

 

I'll go an edit that post now and ask whether the member thinks he should be able to receive both pensions. 

[Pattaya57]

On 9/22/2024 at 1:11 PM, Will27 said:

Just waiting for KH to get off of his meds and see all of these new posts.

 

Looking forward to 50 plus replies that we're all wrong, Paul Hogan and non-resident tax.

 

I'm guessing you nailed it

 

Edited September 24 by Pattaya57

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:50 PM, georgegeorgia said:

Wouldn't you get Veterans Pension?

Asked the same also. 

 

At 80, surely he was under the old scheme of 20 years in the forces and you can take a pension.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:54 PM, georgegeorgia said:

There is no requirement to work 35 years ,you don't even have to work a day in your life to get the old age pension 

 

As you know there are certain Country towns in Australia that many haven't worked a day in their life and they will still get full old age pension when they are 67

 

 

Not just country towns, the cities, also. 

 

Australia now has welfare generational families.  Mum and dad never worked, and grandpa and grandma never worked, yet, they have a car, big TV's, can afford alcohol and cigarettes. 

 

Apparently, the child is supposed to grow up to see that the daily grind of having a job, just to support mum, dad, and the grandparents, and others, through their income tax, is the way to go. 

 

Being on welfare has become a lifestyle choice in Australia, and the shrinking middle class is paying for it.  It's unsustainable.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:16 AM, giddyup said:

Only if you served in a combat zone like Vietnam.

As mentioned, under an old scheme, I was under the belief that if one did 20 years in the forces, they could take a pension.  

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

 

I'm guessing you nailed it

 

Unlike many others, who I have NEVER reported, I have not breached any forum rules.  Many members take advantage of that.  Water off a duck's back for me. 

 

You post says more about you, than me. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:48 AM, LosLobo said:

As a Commonwealth employee aren't you now not on a Defined Benefits Scheme making you ineligible for Aged Pension? Or possibly you have too many assets to qualify?

I've asked the member similar. 

 

Perhaps he feels entitled to both. 

 

Or, perhaps he's like another of this forum who has posted he's on a Vet's pension, then posted he's on a Aged Pension, then back to a Vet's Pension etc etc, when you can't be on both.  

Edited September 24 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 2:54 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Her grandparents, her mother and father, and at the time, her sisters were having children and not having worked a day in their life. 

I bet the kids never ended up working, either. 

 

On 9/21/2024 at 2:54 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

So these housing commission people are still entitled to an aged pension, never having worked?

Of course they are.  Why would you think they wouldn't be.  They are Australian citizens. 

 

They can vote, so any government looking to stop the rorting would never be voted in, hence, they would never announce such a policy.  So, it proliferates.

 

Also, you are forgetting all the other benefits they all get over the decades, like no car rego, energy rebates, public transport etc etc. 

 

On 9/21/2024 at 2:54 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

Generations of unemployed families. 

No end in sight.  Set to continue for generations to come. 

 

Australia - The Lucky Country.  Let immigrants from poorer countries in to work and pay tax so you don't have to work, then complain about immigrants taking a job that you were never going to do in the first place. 

Edited September 24 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:00 AM, georgegeorgia said:

Lol..Dharruk..Emerton..Bidwell

Don't forget the whole suburbs of housing commission in Campbelltown.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 3:00 AM, georgegeorgia said:

He had 6 kids 

How many different mothers?  

 

Usually, the guy was on the dole, and shouldn't be living with the girl who's on the single mother's pension.  Between them, they brought in more money than most average paid workers. 

 

You still see these people in the shops in Australia, doing the same their parents did, and grandparents did, every pension day.  First purchase, carton of cigarettes, second purchase, carton of beer and cask wine.  Then, food for the kids. 

 

On 9/21/2024 at 3:00 AM, georgegeorgia said:

Of course cost him a lot for window bars ,guard dogs etc 

Talking about bars, cheaper to let them out and pay them the dole, than to build more gaols and protect the community from them.  Hence, the high crime rate from this demographic in the community. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:45 AM, Artisi said:

Nothing has changed and it's not right for those of use who worked all their lives, paid off our house, educated our kids and saved a bit of cash for retirement and now get screwed for our pension because we have too many assets and still support all the bludging ar$eholes.

The writing was on the wall decades ago. 

 

There are more on welfare than workers, so those on welfare get to dictate government policy every election.  Thus, it's set to keep going in the same direction for decades to come.   

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 3:55 AM, Will27 said:

My biggest bugbear is the 2 year qualifying period for portability. 

 

If you are eligible, it shouldn't matter where you live.

Can you explain your theory behind this? 

 

I do see your words "if you are eligible" but many Australians work overseas, and don't pay a cent in tax back in Australia.  They work in countries that offer no, or very little tax, for their skills and expertise. 

 

Should one spend most of their working life overseas, earning good money, and paying little or no tax in the country where they work, and zero tax in Australia, why should they be able to fly home at 65 or 67, claim a pension, either live in Australia, or fly straight back out to live overseas? 

 

I can understand if one worked for decades in Australia, and retired early, but many haven't.  For these people, all they have had that is connected to Australia is a passport.  Why should they get a pension? 

 

This is why world wide taxation is coming, particularly as we are now in the digital age, with people working online, from anywhere. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 4:11 AM, SAFETY FIRST said:

I reckon the government had no choice or could have done things a lot better regarding qualifying period, they were forced to change the procedures to quality. 

 

I read that some illegal immigrants came to Australia, hadn't worked a day in Australia but claimed the pension then moved back to the middle east enjoying a good income, it allowed them to live a very comfortable life in their craphole countries or region they came from. 

 

 

Interesting post. 

 

Made me think of a scenario. 

 

Say one has dual national parents, one being Australia, and take your pick for the other.  Could be the UK, Italy, Greece, Germany, France, Vietnam etc etc, and the parents have lived and worked pretty much all their life back in the home country, perhaps after wars finished and it was safe to return home, and one, or all of their children, qualify for an Australia passport, because they were born in Australia. 

 

The child gets an Australian passport, as they are entitled to, flies back to Australia at 65 /67, despite never living a day in Australia, cries poor, gets the pension and leaves.  I think many would be concerned about this, as you mentioned.  

 

I can see why the Australian government requires some type of "appearance" of establishing residency. 

 

A member on this forum has called me a tax evader because I am still earning in Australia, and still pay tax in Australia, just not at the non resident tax rate, yet, it appears perfectly fine for many members of this forum to go back to Australia, BS Centerlink for 2 years, with the allusion they have the "intention" of remaining in Australia, and leave for Thailand straight after portability.

 

I guess it goes to ones sense of "entitlement."     

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 4:19 AM, Will27 said:

You're right.

They could've done things a lot better.

 

Could've implemented a few things to try and avoid that type of thing happening.

Such as????

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 4:32 AM, LosLobo said:

I thought only Poms whinged about Australia.

And those on welfare, and those that pay tax to support those on welfare.  

Edited September 24 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 4:47 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If you return to Australia before getting the pension and establish residency (2 years is seen as a reasonable time)

Any link for the 2 years prior to pension age? 

 

We know about the 2 years after, just wondering about the 2 years prior.  

 

On 9/21/2024 at 4:47 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

However - once you have been overseas for a while and then return to get the Pension (if qualified) then you do have to wait 2 years before portability will be approved.  Example - eligible for Pension now/next week/month and return now - you will get the Pension now, but you must wait 2 years before portability will be approved. Fact.

Link please. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 4:54 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

So anyone thinking of going back early, or when they qualify, you need to 'pretend' that you want to stay living in Australia forever.

Yes, but my question is, how long prior do you have to go back and start "pretending?" 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 5:12 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I agree - the Aust system is one where you must be a resident to be able to apply for the Pension. In order to keep the Pension while living overseas temporarily or permanent (portability)  you must be a 'Resident' and approved for Portability. Which means a Citizen or a Permanent Resident. You cannot lose Citizenship, but if you are away a long time, then Permanent Residency can be withdrawn - and you would therefore lose the Pension (and it has happened and will probably happen more). 

In my opinion, citizenship and residency shouldn't come into it. 

 

There should be a sliding scale.  You pay "X" amount of tax in Australia, regardless of which country you work and live, then you should be able to receive "Y" amount of pension.  Thresholds and assets can be debated.

 

On 9/21/2024 at 5:12 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There is also a 'benefit' in regards to Thailand taxation of the Pension - the Australian Pension is only paid to residents of Australia - wherever they are living - that is why Portability (of Residence) was created.  And as per the Aust-Thai DTA, taxation of a Pension paid by one State to residents of that State, can only be taxed by that State (the State that pays the Pension). There is an exemption, and that is where the person receiving the Pension from one State is a Citizen of the other State and is living in that other State and is a tax resident.  What that means is that an Aussie living in Thailand's Pension is not taxable by Thailand, but a Thai Citizen/Resident (that part means permanent Resident) living in Thailand who is receiving an Aust Pension, can be taxed by Thailand under the DTA.  Yes I know there are some saying it is taxable, and some saying it is not - but IMO the meaning and intention is clear - the Pension is not taxable.

That's the elephant in the room that many either don't want to know about, don't think will happen, can't accept, or think is only for Paul Hogan.  

 

Guess what the non resident tax bracket is from $0, and Aussies are concerned about Thai taxation. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:00 PM, Nemises said:

 

Suggest you call the Centrelink International Office in Hobart on 131673 for a clear / specific answer on this point. 

Yes, and be asked to get put through to the DVA.  They are probably based in India.   

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:10 PM, georgegeorgia said:

Do they speak english?

Would it surprise you if their native language was of the country Australia sent soldiers to fight against?  

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 7:13 PM, georgegeorgia said:

Once you hit 67 and got the OAP  you can go overseas no need to pretend 

I believe the member was discussing "pretending" in order to be granted a pension, and achieve portability. 

 

In other words, "pretend" you have the "intention" of remaining in Australia, thus entitled to portability.   

 

With all that's going on with the proposed changes in Australia, and the Thailand taxation issue, I was wondering if this "portability" issue could be argued against, once the proposed changes are passed into legislation, in Australia. 

 

I mean, if after 183 days one is deemed a resident for taxation purposes, could one argue, at law, as a test case, "well, you've deemed me a resident because I have been here 184 days, so I want my portability."  

 

Could it be a double edge sword for the government.  I mean, one set of laws classify you a resident, but they want to use another law to say you haven't met the criteria for residency, thus no portability.  

 

Could be interesting as test cases come up. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 10:21 PM, rhodie said:

 

It's 10 years ago now, but I have a friend who was in the Philippines for 15 years and returned at age 63. Was on Newstart for 2 years until he got the pension at 65 and left to return to the Philippines with portability.

Any means testing for Newstart? 

 

Just interested how at the age of 63 he could have fronted up like an 18 year old and claimed it. 

 

Of course, there's methods of moving one's assets in a way that brings one under any means testing in Australia. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:31 PM, georgegeorgia said:

Oh please don't quote things on heresay 

You have a friend who told you ,a friend they did that this but haven't seen your "friend" in 20 years etc 

It's based on heresay 

I had met some Aussie backpackers in some bars, all over Thailand, some years ago.  I started some chit chat.  How long is your trip, where are you going etc. 

 

Ended up more than a few told me they were on what I think was the old Newstart, called Austudy. They could do a Mickey Mouse online course, submitting assignments online, whilst backpacking around South East Asia.  Basically, a working holiday on the Australian tax payer, for 2 years. 

 

When I asked what sort of course is that, it was some Certificate 3 or Certificate 4 in b*gger all.  When asked "How can that take a year?"  Answer, "I'll do another one when I finish this one, so 2 years."  So, one each each. 

 

I remember asking one kid where he was from, and him telling me from one of the wealthier suburbs of Sydney.  He appeared to be an over confident smart a**, but well spoken, thus possibly a good education, so I believed it to be true.  

 

Australia - The Lucky Country.  

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:54 PM, Peterw42 said:

I think you will find once you are over 60 the in person reporting and looking for a job etc goes out the window, but they point you towards volunteering.

Interesting. 

 

So, after being away for years, if over 60, can one fly straight back to Australia and claim Newstart, whilst waiting for the aged pension and portability? 

 

Do you have to re-establish residency for Newstart?

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:54 PM, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I think this discussion has been had - I have posted a thing before - can find it if wanted - that appears to say there is nothing in the Double Tax Agreement to exclude the age pension being taxed by Thailand. 

You seem to be saying that the Age Pension is paid to residents by definition - and if you live in Thailand but are not a citizen of Thailand - you are excluded. If you can point to something that says that it might be helpful. 

 

Some want it both ways. 

 

They want to say their pension can not / will not be taxed in Australia, now, and in the future, and also not in Thailand, in 2025, or in the future, due to the DTA. 

 

In my opinion, you can't have it both ways, due to your residency status, with the proviso you are living in Thailand full time.  

 

Time will time, both in Australia, and in Thailand, but the good old days are coming to an end. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:59 PM, Nemises said:

Indeed volunteering is an option but they can't make you do that. Looking for a job and getting the dole is still available to you up until pension age.

 

 

Hence why many return just before pension age and do the 2 years thereafter. 

 

However, I have asked the question, can returning prior to pension age be easier, and maybe shorter?