Prostitution - A Victim-less Industry?

[meemiathai]

If you believe prostitution is a victim-less industry, start another thread and allow me to educate you on that topic. But bring an open mind and don't flame me for being puritanical.

I will wait for the education, Pudgimelon!

[drummer]

Its an interesting question. On one hand, it creates victims out of the girls, on the other hand, the girls were victims before the industry. Slave trade and such aside, of course.

[ghengis]

Prostitutes = Victims?

This depends on the circumstances of the people involved. Many farangs feel more like victims than oppressors when they run into bar girls. These women are usually in control of their lives and it is their choice to work in this business or not. The money these girls earn often supports parents and children back in poor villages. As such the girls may not consider themselves as 'suffering', and they may enjoy a 'high status' amongst their peers because of their relatively high wealth.

However, there is a murkier side to this business. Human trafficking is rife in Thailand. These women are definitely victims.

[bkkmadness]

Pudgimelon's gonna love this.

No fighting in this one boys, play nice

And nobody's allowed to go on about bloody Rachada soi 4, the other end of the Rachada road I think far more suited to the topic .

Nice one meemiathai for calling him out on it.

[britmaveric]

My baht's worth.... its a well paid job and like any business it has its pitfalls. The lady/man can stop whenever she/he chooses. Personally if a person wants to make money off of their wears then I don't have a problem with it.

Now if its forced and not free will then yes this would be wrong and there would be victims.

[SoCal]

Glad to see a topic that hasn't been talked to death.

[drummer]

Well, it quite often has negative side effects for those employed in the industry - willingly or not. At least in the States it does. I was a cab driver for a few years and have talked to all sorts of people. It has definite pesonality side effects. Of course, it takes a certain kind of person, in the US, to become a stripper and/or prostitute. (there are execptions, of course) But the industry does have negative effects. Its kind of like the Bartleby Effect.

[WISteve]

"And nobody's allowed to go on about bloody Rachada soi 4"

A resounding second to that motion!

Not sure Pudgy wants to play though. I outed him on another string and he might have to explain a major inconsistancy on his pure, untarnished and idylic life style!

WISteve

[chanchao]

> "And nobody's allowed to go on about bloody Rachada soi 4"

Well, with the new subway in that area I have to admit I'm tempted.

Oh and of course prostitution is not victimless, though perhaps 'victim' is too severe a term; it definitely has negative effects, for starters, sticking to the Western scene in Thailand, it makes Farang guys (esp when with Thai friends/girlfriends/wives) look bad, AND it probably makes it harder to find a 'regular Thai girl' as many would be deterred by the perceived stigma.

Then, economically, prostitution doesn't add a whole lot of productivity and sustainable growth to the economy.. Keeping in mind how insignificant the foreign scene is, all those girls working in the entertainment industry don't really help the economy. (Other than keeping the workforce happy, of course. )

Cheers,

Chanchao

[duke69]

somethins I joke with some colleaugues telling them that a word like VICTIM means nothing as well as a word like MARKETING ......

VICTIM: depends which is your point of view.

Sometimes the real Victim is the client who is devasted by the society in which lives, lonely, no friends, no love, stress, ....... and the prostitute waiting for him to fall in love for her and suck his money.

How many times have we read on this forum about men willing to marry a BG just after 1 month ....... and than writing silly posts complaining that she destroyed his life (I know some of them are troll).

Than some of us replying: IDIOT she was a BG=prostitute so you had to expect what you got.......

Those men are VICTIMS of their society, style of life, country.

You see, the truth is never totally by one side only, some prostitutes are victims others are predators, as well as the clients.

[Ijustwannateach]

To a certain extent the BGs are "spoiled" by the easy money- certainly without doing a lot of hard work to get other experience they'll never make that level of income in any other job, and their lifestyles are unplanned so they don't make any net benefit out of the higher income.

However, I don't think I've ever heard of someone who REALLY wanted to work not being able to find some kind of job, even if it's only 100B a day work- enough to eat and have a shoddy place to sleep at least. Not a very attractive choice, but still a choice.

I think a lot of farang get in trouble over these types, but if they were honest with themselves and asked themselves the tough questions they could add 2+2=4. They exploit themselves too, just as the BGs do.

Negative effects? Certainly. It's much harder to meet someone genuine, and even if you do you have to suspect them for a long time.

"Steven"

[Jeff1]

I know ! Lets have a prostitution forum .

Why not ? We have one for everything else .

....All bargirls ...All the time ....Cool

[plachon]

Then, economically, prostitution doesn't add a whole lot of productivity and sustainable growth to the economy.. Keeping in mind how insignificant the foreign scene is, all those girls working in the entertainment industry don't really help the economy. (Other than keeping the workforce happy, of course. )

Cheers,

Chanchao

Don't know about that Chanchao..............half of some Isaan villages new houses were built with earnings from such activities, never mind the new vehicles, mobile phones , TVs bought, relations cured and buffalos saved from the slaughterhouse. This is how the hidden economy feeds into the mainstream one in a big way and keeps thngs ticking over in the countryside. If it was banned (ie. enforced), there could be economic catastrophe in quite a sizable number of villages upcountry. Don't forget it also leads to marriage (poll result said 30 % of respondents met their gfs/wives in a bar), which keeps the remittances flowing........

[Pudgimelon]

I will wait for the education, Pudgimelon!

And an education you shall recieve, but first let's get something straight.

Before we get started flaming me for my unpopular opinions, let's clarify a few things:

1) I'm not a puritan or a sexual prude. I don't have any hang-ups about sex.

2) I'm not a religious zealot, and nothing I say should be construed as some sort of dogmatic recital of scripture. (In other words, I may talk about morality, decency and ethics, but I do NOT see those things as being tied exclusively to religion. Perhaps in your experience they are, but I happen to believe that there exists a HUMAN morality that is independent of religion).

3) I'm not narrow-minded or egotistical (or at least, not any more so than the average person). I have friends from all walks of life, both "hi-so" and "lo-so", and I suffer no wounds to my ego when someone is better at something than I am.

4) I am a strong believer in individual RIGHTS, but I am also a strong believer that those rights cannot be separated from individual RESPONSIBILITY. If you want one, you have to demonstrate the other.

The reason I'm bringing this up is that during this conversation, I'm going to get flamed for being a prude or a zealot or a condescending a-hole. But I would like to do is cut off all those flames and just state right out at the beginning: If you can't debate the FACTS that I bring up, then shut the ###### up.

Only intellectual midgets will respond to a detailed, reasoned opinion with: "You're a #$%&@*#@ bible-thumping jerk!"

So could we please leave that crap at the door?? If you don't like what I have to say, then PROVE ME WRONG. But don't attack me personally, because that only proves you've got nothing intelligent to say.

If that's an agreeable premise for everyone, then we can have a real debate on this issue. But if I'm going to spend the time putting together the necessary research to prove my opinions, I'd rather not have 90% of the responses be vitriol-spewing tirades by a bunch of angry lowbrows.

If you disagree with me, fine, I'll be more than happy to prove you're wrong. But if you simply hate on me, then this thread is not going to be worth my time, and you'll just have to get your fun elsewhere.

[Wolfie]

I agree with Pudgimelon, lets keep this debate sensible and no personal attacks on anyone.

its a subject thats been discussed before, but its still an interesting (and almost intellegent) discussion thread.

Play nicely boys and girls, i'm watching

[Coffee Dude]

I doubt very seriously, though I could be wrong, that Thailand had the first worker in the oldest profession.

Prostitution here is one of the easiest navigated in all of many countries I have visited.

There are, however, victims here. If victim is defined as: Someone who gets the shorter end of the stick. But except for obvious exceptions, like mentioned in the human trafficking and forced prostitution and child abuse entries (which few foreigners see), sometime it’s the patron sometimes it’s the vendor who receives the hard to hold end of the stick.

BGs do become infatuated and give it away to certain patrons who are slick and heartless enough to pull it off. From my experience paid sex in Thailand, compared to even a low income country like Bolivia, is practically free. There should be little reason for the patron to make a financial victim of the sex worker (except for the serious need of WD-40 to get out the squeaks).

Almost all of the bargirls I know have choices.

Go home and work 10-12 hours a day bent at the waist in a rice field or potato farm for 100 baht per day on the days that you are needed about 25-30,000 baht per year.

Work in a small business doing unskilled lightly trained tasks for about 6000-8000 Baht per month (sometimes much less).

Throw their legs in the air for a few minutes with a man that probably doesn’t excite them physically but mentally gives them quite a fantasy for a potential fairytale life (comparatively). Income average probably 3-4000 per week gross including short time and bar drink tips (some girls of course earn much higher averages).

Or do any of the above until someone with a little cheese comes along that doesn’t repulse them physically and actually fall in love and marry and live happily ever after. (Unlikely but it happens)

Yes, they are victims of a cultural and economical quagmire that leaves them few unexceptional choices.

Coffee!!

Sorry that was so long

[Ijustwannateach]

Pudgi, while I doubt I would have had much interest in your reply, I had much less interest in your full page self disclaimer supposedly necessary to "appreciate" your views. Others here don't seem to find this necessary. Either your views stand for themselves or they don't. Certainly on other threads they have had their "effect."

If this is going to be a thorough discussion, shouldn't prostitution be well-defined, first? Isn't there a spectrum, running perhaps from the full horrorshow of underage slave prostitutes up through street walkers up through gogo dancers and brothel workers up through "escorts" up through "kept" partners from greater to lesser degrees blatancy, until you arrive at mia nois and finally full blown homemaking wives with no independent salaries? Where exactly do you draw the "prostitution" line, or is it (as I suspect) a spectrum of greater or lesser extent as long as your partner is financially dependent, partially or wholly, on you?

"Steven"

[Coffee Dude]

WOW!!! Good one teach, I like the clarity.

Didn't really need the pudgemeister for a segway though.

Coffee!!!

[meom]

Where exactly do you draw the "prostitution" line, or is it (as I suspect) a spectrum of greater or lesser extent as long as your partner is financially dependent, partially or wholly, on you?

"Steven"

I suppose each individual draws it's own line but wherever you draw it there will be victims as in any industry. For whatever reason there are a lot of women who choose themselves to work as a prostitute. And for most it is a temporary choice cause there ain't that many 50+ prostitutes around.

[wolf5370]

You can only be a victim if something is enforced on you.

If you inflict it yourself, you are simply a masochist (spelling?).

Is a boxer a victim? Well, may be you could say if he came from a poor background and boxing was his only escape from the ghetto, then perhaps. If this was a single choice. It so rarely is though. He knows he is taking years off his life and risking death itself everytime he steps into the ring.

We always have choices. There is always more than one. There may be easy ones and hard ones, but they are still there. If you take the easy one and become a boxer rather than, for the sake of arguement, join the army - because you're good at it and therefore an easy choice for you. Not the only one though.

If you go on the game rather than help grandma in the paddy fields, so that you can buy a mobile phone and a new house for Dad. Its a choice, an easy choice perhaps, but a choice still.

Victim, not in my sense of the word. If some 8 year old kid has been bought for the price of a Hershy Bar in some Burmese shanty and exported to Chiang Rai as a working lass. Tied to hep bed while sweating 50 y/o drunken poppy farmers take turns so your mumma-san can get fatter. This is then a victim. She has no choice. I doubt this child will see many mobile phones, air condos or westerners for that. She is a victim, pure and simple. Some broad sitting in a Pattaya go-go bar, swigging free drinks while chatting to her mates about how many men send her 'living expenses' and how much her new house cost - is no victim. She is following the course of her choice. She can give up. She could go back home to Kon Kean or where ever. She could take a lot with her thgat she never had when she left. Still she sits on that bar, swigging. Victim indeed.

[Harry Palmer]

the victims of prostitution are mostly the prostitutes themselves. if you bothered to take the time to find out (i undertake voluntry charity work in aid of the fallen women of thailand) then you will find that most of the prostitutes that you use to satisfy your deviant sadomasochistic sexual desires have many of the following in common:-

subjected to rape...

subjected to emotional blackmail...

subjected to physical assault...

have attempted suicide...

suffer from post traumatic stress disorders...

just think about this the next time you are lowering your bloated farang belly onto little poor little noi...

as for stopping prostitution; i feel this can be done...

[quadricorrelator]

I think that prostitution has some good and some bad consequences. I think it is very difficult to know the net effect on society relative to a society without some level of prostitution. In fact, I think it is difficult to measure or even define whether one society is better off than another. To do so requires a value system that we all agree on. But, that is likely impossible. Therefore I think it is very difficult to make a moral judgement about prostitution.

So, instead of trying to answer that impossible question, I will point out some effects that I think prostitution has on society:

1. Prostitution may increase the spread of disease.

2. Prositution may distribute money from rich to poor in Thailand.

3. Prostitution may give some happiness to men who could not find it otherwise.

4. Prostitution may give some wealth to women who could not find it otherwise.

5. Prostitution may destroy some mens' bank accounts and hearts.

6. Prostitution may make future "normal" relationships impossible for both men and women who participate in it.

7. Prostitution may wind up hurting those who are married to participants whether or not they are found out.

8. Prostitution may wind up helping those who are married to participants in prostitution by meeting needs which can't be met in the marriage.

-q

[ghengis]

If you want to make general statements about Thai women of the night you might want include the following:

1. Many come from poorest areas in Thailand
   
2. Many have children, brother and sisters and parents to support
   
3. Many have poor education, so the prospects of a good job are limited
   
4. Many are not receiving the support of ex-husbands or boyfriends to look after their children
   
5. Many have children at an early age
   
6. Many have been abused by people in their home village
   
7. Many have left their village where they had no hope to try find a future
   

If you were to force these women to go back and work in paddy fields for a living, most would not thank you.

[Pudgimelon]

OK, sorry about the lag in answering back on this thread, I pulled a muscle in my shoulder tossing the kids around in the pool the other day and so I've been trying to avoid too much typing because it makes my back hurt.

Anyway, I can see where opinions are going on this issue and where the "battle lines" are being draw.

Some people think prostitutes are not victims because they "choose" their profession.

Some people think that prostitution is a way for poor women to "better themselves", and while it may not be the best option, at least it beats farm work.

And some people think that prostitution is "inevitable" and therefore nothing can be done about it (or rather, nothing SHOULD be done about it).

And already in this thread we can see that people are starting to throw around antecdotes and stereotypical generalizations.

However, I would like to avoid all of these debates, because they fail to address the issue on a truly GLOBAL scale. And that is really how you must think about this industry, because whether you see it or not, it IS a global industry, with it's own versions of "multi-nationals", "labor policies", and "trade agreements".

So while antecdotes based on personal experience may be useful to highlight a particular point, you cannot expect to prove anything by saying: "I've dated lots of bargirls, and etc...." or "Thai women are dirt poor lazy and would rather work on their backs than pick rice all day."

However "true" you might THINK those statements are, they do not constitute PROOF.

Additionally, if you're thinking of this issue solely in terms of the industry here in Thailand, or your recollection of that industry back in your home country, you are not seeing the essential FACT that the sex industry is a GLOBAL industry, and therefore local examples are just that: LOCAL. They may highlight a particular point, but they do not constitute a universal "truth" (unless you think prostitutes in America choose their profession to avoid picking rice in their hometowns).

So let's be absolutely clear on that point, when I make a statement about the sex industry, I AM NOT DISCUSSING THAT INDUSTRY IN A SPECIFIC COUNTRY, and therefore rebuttals of my statements based on YOUR personal experiences in a particular country are NOT VALID.

If you're going to discuss this issue properly, you'll have to stop navel-gazing long enough to look up and see that the world is larger than your little fish pond. What you "know" about this industry based on your experiences in Thailand is certainly valid in a small-minded way, but it fails to address the larger, "meta-issues" that permeate the entire industry.

OK, so the central question of this thread is: "Is prostitution a 'victim-less' industry'?"

Well, to answer that question, I'd like to point out something.... "Industry". Why use that word? Does prostitution produce something tangible? No. Well, maybe the occassional unwanted baby, but hopefully nobody sees that as a legitimate "product" of an industry.

But we often use the word "industry" to describe prostitution because there certainly is a large commercial aspect to it. Rarely is prostitution simply an idealized exchange of money between one man and one woman. If that was the case, then prostitution wouldn't have any more 'commericalism' to it than an exchange of money between a man and a local barber or a shoe-shiner.

But we all know that there are a large number of middle-men involved on both sides of the exchange. There are bar owners, pimps, photographers, 'hairdressers', bouncers, 'boyfriends', webmasters, touts, and many, many others who all take their share of the money generated by that woman's "labor".

So those people who argue that prostitution is just a way a guy can "help a girl out" while having a little fun in return are missing the bigger picture.

And those who argue that prostitution is just a way for a girl to "better herself" are missing the point that a whole lot of people are leeching off her efforts and perhaps bettering themselves a lot more than her.

Compare the sex "industry" to any other industry in the world today and you'll start to understand the point I'm making. In most developed countries, workers have at least SOME protect from abuse by their employers, and even in the third world, there is a struggle by human rights activists and world aid agencies to improve the workplace standards in textile, manufacturing and agricultural industries.

So even if those standards do not exist in a particular country, MOST people would agree that workers deserve at least SOME protection from hazardous work environments and abusive bosses.

But GLOBALLY speaking, these protections are practically non-existent in the sex industry, EVEN in developed countries. There are, of course, exceptions, but we're talking about the majority of cases here, not the few exceptions. In MOST cases, female and male prostitutes do not enjoy ANY of the same rights and protections that their peers in other industries enjoy. They don't get health benefits, can't organize unions, and have absolutely no protection from employer abuse (can you imagine a bargirl bringing a sexual harassment suit against a manager at a go-go bar?).

Now, of course, if you don't believe that women (ALL women) deserve workplace rights and protections, then you may not think it's a big deal if prostitutes don't have these rights. And if you don't believe that workers (ALL workers) deserve workplace rights and protections, then you may not think it's a big deal if prostitutes don't have these rights.

So, yes, there will be a few throwbacks who come on here and say that women (and all workers in general), deserve to be abused and taken advantage of by their employers, but I think that most people here can at least see the point that if a textile worker should get workplace rights, a sex worker should get those same rights.

For example, in most civilized countries in the world, there are laws regulating child labor. Sure, some places violate these laws, but in most cases, that's seen as a bad thing.

So there are laws in place in most countries that prevent children from working 12-hour shifts in a textile factory or operating dangerous machinery in a poultry plant. And most of us would agree that is a good thing, correct???

Well, according to most studies done on this topic, the average worker in the sex industry started working in that industry when they were still a minor. In fact, the WHO puts the number at somewhere around 70% to 90% of all sex workers joined into the industry as minors.

We don't even have to get into a discussion of HOW those children joined the industry. It doesn't matter if they were forced, coerced, seduced, enticed, recruited, or EVEN if they WILLFULLY joined up. It doesn't matter, because if it is wrong for a child to work in a textile plant, it's wrong for a child to work in a brothel. Period.

So what do you say about an industry that ACTIVELY recruits minors? What do you say about an industry that doesn't even guarantee it's workers the most basic of human rights and workplace safety standards? What do you say about an industry that offers its workers absolutely no protection, employer oversight, or arbitration??

I know many of you have your "happy hooker" tales about some girl you met who just LOVED her "job", and I'm sure you believe those tales represent some sort of evidence that prostitution ain't so bad.

But when you measure the few "happy hooker" tales up against the catalog of human rights abuses within the sex industry, it becomes apparent that the industry AS A WHOLE victimizes its workers.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

It is and it is not.

I can't really elaborate or expand on the comments so far, (of which there are some very valid ones), and at 2bht a minute I'm not going to try.

[damnaam]

..... If you can't debate the FACTS that I bring up, then shut the ###### up.

Well said Wolfie. However, the flaming generally arises when someone insists they offer facts, not opinions, and if these can't be debated then you must shut the ###### up. I'll get my coat...............................

[Ijustwannateach]

Pudgi, I still don't care about where you think the battlelines are drawn or "WHAT IT IS" you are talking about. What unnecessary waste of bandwidth.

Furthermore, you have set up the straw man of the rankest sorts of prostitution to mean "prostitution." I would argue that a good sector of the industry which would still be called prostitution is NOT so sordid (sex slaves, people forced by poverty into it, etc., etc.). That's why I presented the spectrum and asked people to identify where they drew the line of prostitution before debating it. Otherwise, am I to take it that the "kept" boys and girls are not prostitutes? Obviously well-off free-lancers in their prime in the discos? What about mia nois? I think the spectrum has smoother gradations of grey than the easy-to-knock-down "obviously bad" side you're focussing on.

Incidentally, did you ever figure out if you're married or not? And why did you edit the posts where you said you were?

"Steven"

[Coffee Dude]

"Industry". Why use that word? Does prostitution produce something tangible?

As you have pointed out in sooooo many words. One can't make a comparison between the sex (service) industry of the world with other industries.

What do you say about an industry that offers its workers absolutely no protection, employer oversight, or arbitration??

You have rightly stated that the majority of sex workers around the world enjoy so little civil protection usually afforded to workers of most other industries. A small snippet of information left out of the equation that completely changes the quotient is the fact that in very few places is it legal.

To make a comparison of the difference between a legal and illegal industry on a level playing field let's look at alcohol sales under Al Capone during prohibition in the USA and Alcohol sales as a legal industry. The fact that it is illegal is the single largest contributor to the abuses that CAN occur. There are places around the world where prostitution is legal. Depending on the human rights posture of the country involved these workers receive the same protections as workers in other fields. Take into consideration that in certain cultures women just don't get any respect or protection... ever.

I, like you, believe that women should be afforded the same protection as men no mater what proffession they choose.

Legalize prostitution today!!!

Coffee!!!

[NedKelly]

geesus......did I miss something here.....my first question would be why is this so important to pudgi ?

Sure girls are victims......but is it not victim of society, rather than 'victim as prostitute'.........economic and social inequities may encourage a girl to 'choose' to enter the world of prostitution and all that goes with it as in this world she may become more wealthy and take care of her family.

None of us likes the idea that a girl/woman is ever exploited to the extent she has absolutley no choice or freedom of movement. That stinks.

But why cant society provide a framework in whcih the girls control their own fate......I would love to see a prostitutes union or a revolution in the industry in which the workers controlled 100% their own industry, instead of some fat arse sitting back getting the $$ for doing nothing.

[britmaveric]

I do think you need to take "Location" in consideration when you are talking about prostitution. Simply put it's an economic decision made by those who choose the profession.

I don't think you can compare a western european prostitute with a thai prostitute. The western european has legitimate choices of profession, but the thai is truely limited.