Plumbing Question

[Iolare]

My experience in plumbing has been with systems that connected to the municipal sewer lines only, so I'm a rookie when it comes to septic systems. The house I’m building has septic tanks for toilet waste lines only, and gray water drain systems with soak outs for everything else. The kitchen one also has a grease trap. The contractor is just starting the plumbing, and I noticed that the floor drains don’t have traps. Are traps unnecessary in a gray water system?

[Crossy]

IMHO. Any drain inside the house be it floor, sink, shower, bath or bidet will need a trap if you want to prevent 'orrible pongs coming back up from the murky depths even if they don't discharge into the septic itself

That said, TiT, good luck in persuading your plumber

EDIT A piccie to show the plumber:-

Another type, possibly better suited http://www.jrsmith.com/products/internatio...ittal/i2095.pdf

Edited January 22, 2008 by Crossy

[briley]

On most floor drains I've seen in Thailand the trap is just that little bit of water caught around the edge of the drain.

Works if water regularly flows down the drain but dries out very fast.

[Iolare]

IMHO. Any drain inside the house be it floor, sink, shower, bath or bidet will need a trap if you want to prevent 'orrible pongs coming back up from the murky depths even if they don't discharge into the septic itself

That said, TiT, good luck in persuading your plumber

EDIT A piccie to show the plumber:-

Another type, possibly better suited http://www.jrsmith.com/products/internatio...ittal/i2095.pdf

Crossy, Thanks once again for your input, and though I confess I don’t know exactly what ‘orrible pongs are, they sound ominous enough that I want to trap them out, so I think I agree with you. My reasoning was that water traps would of course prevent smells, but hopefully also any ants, cockroaches, geckos, etc. that might try to gain entry. On the other hand, the traps in infrequently used areas might breed mosquitos, so that’s maybe an argument on the other side. But, in balance, drain traps it is, and thanks for the “piccie” and the link for the plumber.

The plumber is actually the builder himself. I selected a Thai guy who has built some good looking homes in this area, and he is doing a very nice job on my project right up to the plumbing. I’m happy that everything is coming out true, level and square, but apparently he just never did plumbing to a western standard before. The lower level of my project has a bath for the pool area, and the rough-in was his first stab at plumbing on this project.

We took it out and redid it together, substituting sanitary tees and y’s for regular tees, eliminating 90 degree elbows in the drain lines, adding a clean out in the waste line, vents for the sinks and the toilet since the stool was over 3 meters from the stack. So now it’s the way I want it, but I needed to think about the floor drains and get some advice before making those changes too.

My builder, who I’ve come to really like, will not be doing the electrical, so don’t worry about that. Your help is appreciated.

[palm]

My experience in plumbing has been with systems that connected to the municipal sewer lines only, so I'm a rookie when it comes to septic systems. The house I’m building has septic tanks for toilet waste lines only, and gray water drain systems with soak outs for everything else. The kitchen one also has a grease trap. The contractor is just starting the plumbing, and I noticed that the floor drains don’t have traps. Are traps unnecessary in a gray water system?

Thai plumbers I've met here call U-bends a 'phee-tap'. Definitely worth installing on any waste water pipe to avoid bad smells.

[Rimmer]

Agree 100% with Crossy, you must have U traps for any kind of waste water pipe from the house. But as briley says they like to use the floor trap fittings here because houses are often built on the ground and it is not possible to service a U trap if it's under concrete. If at all possible you should always fit them.

[tjo o tjim]

The trap doesn't do much good unless the drain is used often (mopping the floor or a shower). If this is the case, you need to use a "trap primer" that lets a little water drip into the trap constantly.

[chownah]

The trap doesn't do much good unless the drain is used often (mopping the floor or a shower). If this is the case, you need to use a "trap primer" that lets a little water drip into the trap constantly.

or a cover such as a sink stopper, plastic bag filled with sand, or even a mouse pad with weight if needed.

chownah

[Iolare]

The trap doesn't do much good unless the drain is used often (mopping the floor or a shower). If this is the case, you need to use a "trap primer" that lets a little water drip into the trap constantly.

I thought about trap primers too, but decided against it. The maid can pour a cup of water with a little chlorine into the floor drains once a week.

[lopburi3]

At the normal humidity most places this is not that big a problem (takes a long time to dry out). What can be a problem with the small inverted cone type traps used here is a powerful exhaust fan. If there is not adequate source of input air (large window) it can suck up odor even with the trap ring full of water.

[chownah]

The trap doesn't do much good unless the drain is used often (mopping the floor or a shower). If this is the case, you need to use a "trap primer" that lets a little water drip into the trap constantly.

I thought about trap primers too, but decided against it. The maid can pour a cup of water with a little chlorine into the floor drains once a week.

isn't chlorine highly corrosive?

chownah

[Iolare]

The trap doesn't do much good unless the drain is used often (mopping the floor or a shower). If this is the case, you need to use a "trap primer" that lets a little water drip into the trap constantly.

I thought about trap primers too, but decided against it. The maid can pour a cup of water with a little chlorine into the floor drains once a week.

isn't chlorine highly corrosive?

chownah

What I had in mind was using a dilute solution similar to the swimming pool (she could even dip a pail into the pool and use that) just to kill any mosquito larva that might be there. The drain system is pvc plastic, and the drain housing metal will be chrome plated brass so I don’t think corrosion would be a problem.

[tjo o tjim]

The chlorine isn't a good idea for the septic tank, and might be overkill for the mozzies, but not the end of the world.

[Iolare]

The chlorine isn't a good idea for the septic tank, and might be overkill for the mozzies, but not the end of the world.

In my house design the septic tanks are for toilets only. The drains flow into seepage rings with soakouts, so the very diluted chlorine water shouldn't hurt anything.

[Dave the Dude]

The chlorine isn't a good idea for the septic tank, and might be overkill for the mozzies, but not the end of the world.

In my house design the septic tanks are for toilets only. The drains flow into seepage rings with soakouts, so the very diluted chlorine water shouldn't hurt anything.

Personnally, I would not risk disolving the cheap Thai plastic pipes under my house with any chemicals that are not for regular 'bathroom' use. Assuming the room is in regular use:- shampoo/shower gel/ soaps ect. will be enough to clean out pipes traps.

lolare

I would strongly recommend installing any type of trap even a simple one made out of 4 x 45degree plastic bends. I have fitted them many times when I was a plumber/gas engineer back in the UK and as long as there is a slight 'fall' in the pipework, you will have no problems. If you are in a position to 'look over the builders shoulder' when he is piping up your house, I'd also strongly recommend that too.

I wasnt and ended up with 2 bathrooms with no traps but plenty of smells/creepy crawlies. SORTED NOW

Good Luck

Dave

[KKK]

Visit your local HomePro or HomeMart. They have lots of reasonable quality floor, kitchen sink and wash basin traps to stop those horrible smells. Even 20 years ago when my house was built I managed to find enough stuff in my local builders merchant to make them. The builder didn't understand them but others having houses built nearby adopted my idea.

Be careful with the use of drain cleaners as well as the ceramic tile cleaners "Vixol" available here. Most will disintegrate your plastic traps over time. Some floor traps have a replaceable basket in them so keep some spares available.

Thai plumbers I've met here call U-bends a 'phee-tap'.

A P-Trap is where the inlet is on the vertical axis and the outlet on the horizontal, similar to a 'P' turned on its side without closing the loop. An S-Trap has both inlet and outlet on the vertical axis like an 'S' turned on its side.

For septic tanks I recommend "Bionic" waste digester powder available here. Half a packet (baht 39) flushed down the toilet once every couple months helps keep the septic healthy with little microbes munching away at all your bodily waste. In 20 years of use my 2 septic tanks have never needed to be sucked-out unlike my neighbours who have it done at least once a year...and the pong hangs around forever. Best to use this powder just before you're going away or shut down one bathroom for a couple of days if you've got more then one.

Building things I miss most in Thailand: necked barrel bolts and mortice ball catches. The former for use on wooden casement windows. With the straight variety available here the bolt comes too close to the frame rebate and therefore doesn't bite into the frame properly leaving a weak point for jimmying the window open. Mortice ball catches are useful on doors that don't require a lock but need a method to hold the door closed. After many years non-locking mortice latch sets have become available (at a higher price than a locking one) but require the same fixing method as a lock latch and you cannot open the door with a simple shove or pull of a handle, you have to turn the knob or lever to enter or leave a room.

Member of National Federation of Builders' and Plumbers' Merchants

Member Institute of Building

Member Society Of Surveying Technicians

Edited January 28, 2008 by KKK

[xerostar]

Yes P-Traps on everything!

I have not see a decent P-Trap in Thailand. Even at Homex.

Just those little toy ones that are made of very thin brass or plastic.

They hold on to the basin by a central screw steel that usually goes rusty.

However they do have the proper sink outlets now which are threaded brass tube (chromed) with large ring-nut underneath

holds it in place. So that's a start.

Here is a picture of the common under sink p-trap used in Australia.

They are made from a tough PVC and quite cheap to buy.

Don't forget to have vent pipes outside too.

Vent pipes allow trapped air to escape when you have a lot of water coming down the floor waste

(i.e. shower floor drain), otherwise you will have unpleasant gurgling sounds, bubbling noises and

possible nasty smells coming back into the room.

The same goes for septic (black water) and floor waste (grey water). Make sure you have vents installed.

My mother-in-law's place has no vents for two toilet pans connected to the septic tank.

We have no end of gurgling, back-bubbling, "almost overflowing" pans and loud "whooshing" when the weight of water (two flushes)

eventually overcomes the air pressure buildup in the sewer pipes, resulting in pans almost devoid of water and the

escape of smelly gases!

It's not a pleasant sight to see your recent "Tong Sia" in a huge whirlpool, threatening to overflow pollute the whole bathroom!

It's so simple to avoid all these problems if everything is done properly at the beginning!

[Beardog]

Here is a photo of the way I made mine(the (4) 90degree design -or you can get a ready made at home pro or something like home pro Pre made. I put mine outside & is 4 feet from the edge of the concrete. That way I can access the fitting if it ever has a problem without having to tear up tile or concrete (number 1 mistake in Thai plumbing-They like to encase all the pipes & all other plumbing parts in cement instead of putting it in a convenient spot. PVC pipes eventually will need repair or replacement quicker than galvanized piping. When I put in my plumbing all the 1/2"or 3/4 was enclosed in a 1" line so I could cut out the end & pull the dead PVC pipe thru the other end & replace. The 1/2" main water supply is inside a 4" pipe to allow me to cut the line & pull the elbow through & refit the pipe by pulling it through the other end. The only lines I couldn't enclose in a larger pipe to pull through was the actual shower line -toilet- extra hose line & the sink pipe. I took pictures of all the pipes tubes & fittings to revert back to in case of repairs(makes it a know brainer)

I figured out why not to let the people working the cement to encase your pipes in the palace of doom when I had to rip out 20 pieces of tile a meter of cement as the dorks had made a snake configuration instead of a logical line down & 1 elbow leading out.

After that I decided not to make the most common mistake of the palace of doom design.

It really is worth the extra step especially if it is a new house!

There have been similar posts on how to safeguard yourself from this fateful doom .

The U-trap is a must & since it is usually sloped(it should be!) unwanted odors stay out. if the slope is correct it will keep the water trapped (from your shower drain) so the pongs ( bad smells don't waft into your nose all the time)

The clan here is really helpful(especially on smelling unwanted odors) & other pipe dreams regarding plumbing & other house designing & electrical. & avoid chemicals-bleach & chlorine -duck draino & other nasty things that will back your septic up.The chemicals stop the micro-organisms that eat the waste completely.

Too much toilet paper & sanitary napkins can also back up your system. Here is the photo. I hope some of this info will be helpful to you. The other photo enclose is the 4" pvc pipe that hold the 1/2 " main water supply -with shuttoff the pipe gets cut &(if you use this design allow enough room to make several repairs & give yourself 3"-4" of height on the pipe so you can cut & re glue the old pipe) Once the outlet pipe to the house is cut the 4" pipe lifts out & you can cut the other end (or break it off & pull the line through the 4" tube elbow & all replace & reinsert without tearing up the crete.

Beardog

Edited February 11, 2008 by Beardog