Thai Man Killed & English House Owner Injured Following House Robbery

[bulmercke]

Shame on him for killing someone if it was just over some household junk and a cut from an axe. I hope he didn't mean to kill him. However, I would still be hunting the other two for some payback.

Are you joking? Surely you can't be serious?

Edited January 23, 2008 by bulmercke

[adjan jb]

adjan: you have made a presumption that thais are buddhist?! not any ive seen/met as of late. certainly not in practice

Agreed.

Superstition is the national religion and money their god.

[YangYaiEric]

By chasing and then mowing-down one of the 3 robbers, the chap took the law into his own hands. The Farang guy will probably get a STIFF jail sentence. Taking the law into you own hands is not recomended,especially in Thailand.

Poor chap, though.

Putting myself in the same position as him, I honestly dont know what I'd do, especially having been physically attacked with an AXE!!

[gharknes]

I stand by the post I made at the start of this thread.

But in this case the burglary incident was over, done, finished. A dead parrot.

The burglary incident was not over, they where making a get away with his property, the incident was still in full flow

If I steal your wallet and run - is the incident over as soon as I have your property ?

[ChangMaiSausage]

Final say is good luck to Mr Jones and hope that he does not receive a stiff sentence,

I believe he did the right thing (my opinion) Hopefully a bit of common sense will prevail during his court case.

Edited January 24, 2008 by ChangMaiSausage

[onnut]

This is a great story, I hope it winds up good for Mr Jones.

There are to many Farang that back off and let it go because they are worried about comebacks from the Thais. if there were more guys like Mr Jones maybe the thieving, murdering scumbags would think twice about attacking and robbing the westerners.

why do they not rob there own? its because they are scared of what could happen!

A mate of mine works for a security firm in Bangkok, he told me more robberies happen in Pattaya, Phuket and Hua-Hin Because there is a bigger chance that the house will belong to a westerner, in Bangkok it happens less because the robber has no idea who could be living at the address.

makes sense..............

I myself have got some weapons around the house just in case I have a problem, and I will use them. If I were in Mr Jones boots I would have lost cntrol also and maybe have done the same.

all of you guys out there that have a wife and a house to protect, because at the end of the day, that is our job, give this guy some support.

[ronz28]

Are you joking? Surely you can't be serious?

Yes, I am serious. If I catch a thief who tries to run away, I am not going to get into a fight with him. If I do and get hurt trying to get my junk from him, I wouldn't hunt him down several miles away and commit intentional homicide. The punishment doesn't fit the crime and I am not the judge, jury and executioner.

I would hunt him down for payback but not to kill him. Now, if he is in my home and the thief doesn't try to run away and came there to do harm to me or my family then all is fair and he is probably a dead man. Where I live, it is legal to kill a thief in your home or yard but I don't think you can drive several blocks away and kill them unless you are a cop. I keep a Winchester Defender with plenty of double-ought buckshot for home defense but I hope I don't have to use it to kill anyone.

That said a thief should understand that others wouldn't take a measured response or I might not either depending on the circumstances. I don't know what the law is in Thailand but the thief is always taking a huge risk that he may be killed regardless of what the law is.

[cali4995]

The guy returns to his residence with his heavily pregnant wife, interrupts a burglary in progress and

gets assaulted with an axe. Did you see the blood-trail in the photo? I'm assuming that's his. Looked

like they nearly killed him first. I think we could forgive him for being a little out of his head.

[Jimjim]

Not self defense but in the U.S. they'd call it temporary insanity due to the trauma of the incident and he could probably get off due to the fact that those robbers just tried to kill him with an axe.

[Daffy D]

I am not an attorney, but, would surely think that Mr. Jones was chasing the perpetrators after their housebreaking/theft and intent to kill him, in order to identify and detain them for authorities. The fact that an accident took place between two vehicles and that one motorcycle rider was killed, can likely be atributed to him not wearing a helmet and the fact that the three perpretrators were utilizing a single motorcycle. Vehiclular mishap as far as I can see and the reamining culprits should be cited for not wearing a helmet, riding three on one motorcycle and then be incarcerated until their trial for Housebreaking, Attempted Murder and casuing a death as a result of the crime. In America the two remaining perpretrators would be held accontable for the death of their comrade due to the death being the result of their cirme even if he had experinced a heart attack.

“Mouse” you say you are not an attorney but in my opinion the “hypothetical” defense you propose is brilliant and fits the facts. If I ever get into trouble can I call upon you to advise my attorney?

Unfortunately I think the fact that he is a Farang will be a major problem for the poor guy. I’m sure the authorities will not take kindly to foreigners running around killing their own nationals.

Not much to add to what has already been said, unfortunately things happen when they are least expected so how do we know how we would react. Life is not like Hollywood where with the help of appropriate musical score you can see the bad guy creeping up on you and you have time do the right thing. Having weapons stashed in appropriate places round your house is not much help if you get attacked as you enter the house.

There have been plenty of macho Farang pounding chests posts of what would happen to any local thug that threatened him or his family Blah! Blah! Well it’s not always so neat and there is not always the opportunity to place a gun in the thugs hand before the police arrive.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this case but I would guess it will not be good for the poor guy. The authorities will not want to give the out the message that it’s Open Season for Farangs, Foreigners, Aliens, to kill, murder one of their own no matter what the circumstances.

D.D.

[ErikD]

Before everybody speculates even more about what awful things the police are going to do:

Mr. John Jones is at home, his finger is back on and he has 1 arm in a plaster.

The whole incident is being dealt with as an accident and that is what it was (he was only trying to stop them).

[koheesti]

You steal, you die. It should be that simple.

The only problem is that two of the thieves didn't die. Instead they got away with the money. If a judge decides he must pay the family, the English guy should tell the family to get the money from the dead guy's friends.

[koheesti]

Welcome to Pattaya!

At least he is not in the morgue like the Estonian killed on walking street

He wasn't killed. Just stabbed in the leg.

[DonTron]

Lets say a burglar enters my house and either threathens me, refuses to leave, vandalizes my property or endangers my family. And lets say I am standing with a weapon in my hand.

Am I allowed to shoot him?

What does the Thai law say about this? Anyone know?

(The Scandinavian laws say, that all you can do is call the police and if you defend yourself you will be punushed, and thats insane)

[basjke]

This happened in a european country(real)

A man notices when he want to go sleep that the light is on in a storage building in the garden.When he wents to close the light he see that some guys are stealing his stuff.

He calls the police and informs them about it.

The police asks if the thieves are in the house.When he answers negative they tell him to keep all doors closed and they will pass by when they have a car available.

The man hangs up the phone and counts to 100.Then he calls the police again and says,I just called about the burglars at my place well I have just shot them all.

Within 5 minutes there are 3 police cars and an ambulance at his house and they catch the thieves on the job.

[Khun ?]

I have mixed feelings about this whole matter.

The penalty for B&E and assault is not death. Having said that it is likely that his intentions were just to stop the assaultive burglars. I personally have all the sympathy for the home owner whoose home was violated. I would give him one year probation.

I would get him fixed up and back on the road soon as possible.

Maybe faster vehicle so the others will not get away next time.

They had no problem 3 on 1 and to attempt to take his life and property.

They only lost life no property, half as much.

Eye for a eye!

[tattoodrob]

This happened in a european country(real)

A man notices when he want to go sleep that the light is on in a storage building in the garden.When he wents to close the light he see that some guys are stealing his stuff.

He calls the police and informs them about it.

The police asks if the thieves are in the house.When he answers negative they tell him to keep all doors closed and they will pass by when they have a car available.

The man hangs up the phone and counts to 100.Then he calls the police again and says,I just called about the burglars at my place well I have just shot them all.

Within 5 minutes there are 3 police cars and an ambulance at his house and they catch the thieves on the job.

that guy had a good idea but would probably be arrested for giving false info to the police.

in thailand the police might come quick if you say the same but there after there tea(and biscuits!)money from the farang who might have shot the lovely burglars!!

[tattoodrob]

Lets say a burglar enters my house and either threathens me, refuses to leave, vandalizes my property or endangers my family. And lets say I am standing with a weapon in my hand.

Am I allowed to shoot him?

What does the Thai law say about this? Anyone know?

(The Scandinavian laws say, that all you can do is call the police and if you defend yourself you will be punushed, and thats insane)

the whole worlds losing the plot ,who the <deleted> makes laws to protect the criminals

[Claymore]

Lets say a burglar enters my house and either threathens me, refuses to leave, vandalizes my property or endangers my family. And lets say I am standing with a weapon in my hand.

Am I allowed to shoot him?

What does the Thai law say about this? Anyone know?

(The Scandinavian laws say, that all you can do is call the police and if you defend yourself you will be punushed, and thats insane)

the whole worlds losing the plot ,who the <deleted> makes laws to protect the criminals

Actually Thai law protects the householder. He can do anything he wants to protect his family and belongings in his own house. Thai law does not however provide immunity if you chase the burglar down the street and kill him. In this case I dont think police are actively pursuing. He'll prob have to pay cash to police and burglar's family tho.

[Humphrey Bear]

From the Daily Telegraph in year 2000

Farmer who killed burglar jailed for lifeBy David Sapsted

A NORFOLK farmer who claimed he was only defending himself and his home when he shot dead a teenage intruder during a burglary was jailed for life yesterday after being convicted of murder.

Tony Martin: said he had been in fear of his life when he shot at the intruders

The judge said the fates of Tony Martin, 55, and Fred Barras, the 16-year-old he killed with a shotgun blast to the back, were "a dire warning" to burglars and householders who used unreasonable force to protect their homes. Mr Justice Owen said the case had also raised serious questions about the level of rural crime and ordered that concerns over policing the countryside be brought to the attention of the Chief Constable of Norfolk.

The jury of six men and six women at Norwich Crown Court voted 10-2 to convict Martin of murder but cleared him of the attempted murder of Brendon Fearon, 30, the ringleader of the burglary gang from Newark, Nottinghamshire. Martin, who had suffered repeated burglaries at his remote and squalid Victorian farmhouse before Fearon and Barras broke in on Aug 20 last year, stared at the jury impassively as they returned their verdict after almost 10 hours.

Nick Makin, his solicitor, said there would be an immediate appeal. He said: "If this area had been properly policed, Fred Barras would be alive today." Members of the teenager's family in the court roared in approval as the verdict was returned. A female relative shouted at Martin: "I hope you die in jail."

Martin told the trial that he had been in fear of his life when he shot at Barras and Fearon, who suffered serious leg injuries. He opened fire after being woken when the intruders smashed a window in his farmhouse in Emneth, west Norfolk.

His claim that he had shot at them from halfway down the stairs was disproved by scientific evidence that showed he must have fired his illegally-held, pump-action shotgun from the doorway of a downstairs room. The prosecution accused him of angrily lying in wait for the burglars and opening fire, without warning, from close range in retribution for previous robberies at his home.

Fearon ripped out a window as the two burglars fled. Barras staggered about 15ft before collapsing in the undergrowth and dying within two minutes. Many members of the local farming community had rallied to Martin's cause by sending letters of support and cash for his defence.

But the shooting of Fred Barras, a repeat offender from a family of travellers, enraged others. The trial was told that a £60,000 underworld contract had been offered to kill the eccentric farmer, known to some locals as "Mad Man Martin".

Hilary Martin, 86, his mother, said last night: "I am devastated, shocked and upset. Because of this verdict, decent people will not be able to sleep at night. He was merely defending himself against people who are thieves and vagabonds. They are evil. If he did not act as he did, they would have kicked his head in. He was going to defend himself and he panicked."

The Barras family - the boy's mother Ellen, his father Fred and his five sisters - said they did not condone the boy's actions but he should have been dealt with by the justice system. A statement issued by the family said: "He was not given that chance. Please remember that he was just 16 and the baby of our family. We are all devastated by his loss."

After the verdicts, Mr Justice Owen told the court: "It seems to me that this case does serve as a dire warning to all burglars who break in to the houses of other people. Every citizen is allowed to use reasonable force to prevent crime. Burglary is a crime. The householder in his own home may think he is being reasonable but that can have tragic consequences."

Ken Williams, the county's chief constable, acknowledged later that concerns over rural crime had become a major issue since the shootings. Martin had suffered so many losses from his farm and from his antiques-filled home that he believed it was "a waste of time" working with the police.

Mr Williams said: "In an ideal world. I would have all the resources I need. However, we police in the real world and have to make do with what we have." Det Chief Insp Martin Wright, who led the murder investigation, said that he derived no personal satisfaction from Martin's conviction and said the case had been "a tragedy" for all involved.

He said: "I think the central lesson is that members of the public should not take the law into their own hands. The one problem with Mr Martin was that he was clearly a repeat victim of crime but we rarely heard from him."

Richard Portham, a spokesman for the local Martin support group, described the shootings as "a crime committed in terror". He said: "The jury's decision will have devastating consequences for the safety of people in their own homes. Householders faced by intruders now have no effective protection in law."

Martin appeared unrepentant about the shootings in an interview conducted by the BBC while he was in a "safe house" awaiting trial. He said: "We are supposed to live in a civilised society, but that is not the way I have been treated. People are not aware of what it's like in the countryside: criminals prevail - it cannot be right. It's not reasonable that people should live in fear."

Martin was also sentenced to 10 years after being found guilty of wounding Fearon. He had earlier pleaded guilty to possessing the shotgun without a firearms certificate, for which he received 12 months.

He's out-and-about now, the farmer that is, but this is the treatment in UK.

You can follow the full story, through the appeal, conviction reduced to manslaughter, release - here

http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/News/Index/TonyMartin.asp

Edited February 2, 2008 by Humphrey Bear

[desertcam]

I remember that case in the UK....there was absolute uproar from the English public when he was imprisoned.....It was obvious that the authorities were following the letter of the law. Didn’t the guy get released early due to public pressure?

Anyway, put yourself in this guys position, you have just been attacked with an axe, you missus who is carrying your child is in severe danger.......I think any red blooded male would loose the plot!

One thing is for certain, it is gonna cost him financially here, legal fees and the tea money for the boys in blue, oh and don’t forget Immigration with the threat of blacklist/deportation they know he has a Thai wife and cannot let this happen so they have him over a barrel here.

Whatever the outcome, his card will be marked and I am afraid he will have to move away somewhere for his own safety......because I am sure the Thai guys/family/brothers will not let this lie.

Desertcam

[Daffy D]

Don’t know if it is the same case or a similar one where the injured burglar sued the homeowner for loss of earnings as he couldn’t work anymore. Don’t know what the outcome of that was, the burglar probably got a huge payout and is living on a tropical island surrounded by lovely maidens.

The homeowner of course would be bankrupt and in jail.

D.D.

[talahtnut]

these farang if it was your money your house your life ?

All over 45,000 baht; life is cheap to these farang...

the axeman might have thought the farang was a cheap price to pay for 45000B...

[MekongCombat]

In this situation many of the posters here are underestimating the justice of the Thai legal system. I suspect that nothing will be done to Mr. Jones for killing the suspect, as nothing should be done to him. Furthermore I suggest anyone reading this who encounters anyone in their home be prepared to die and have all your papers in order unless your already prepared to fight to the death, this includes some basic knife or sword fight training scenarios. The majority of encounters where a thief encounters a home owner leads to the home owner being attacked with a weapon and many times murdered.

If anything Mr. Jones deserves a Trophy, possibly an aware citizenry award or some such thing. He has done the people of Thailand including farang a great service by removing one dangerous murdering thief from the land and possibly preventing him from murdering someone else be they Thai or farang. As for the two who got away, it is unlikely they will ever return to the scene of the crime, maybe they will even be scared straight but unless the dead suspects family turns in the two others most likely that story will remain untold. Yes my words are harsh for some, a reality check for others but only affirm the truth the living in Thailand taught me which I have chosen to share here. I have dealt with death here in Thailand on many levels, many a farang has flown home in the baggage department, that is on them. Cheers to Mr. Jones, a true hero who protected his wife and unborn child from savages who terrorized his home, we should all be proud of him.

[mickba]

Before everybody speculates even more about what awful things the police are going to do:

Mr. John Jones is at home, his finger is back on and he has 1 arm in a plaster.

The whole incident is being dealt with as an accident and that is what it was (he was only trying to stop them).

If this was true I don't understand why subsequent posts ignore it. Maybe I'm gullible but if true it sounds like good news.

Three men on a bike in the getaway sounds fun - where can I get the video?

A slightly different (or maybe same same) perspective from my fairly switched on Thai gf :-

"good for falang can do..."

"no, polipe will not put falang in monkey jail, you can believe me...."

"Thai people not like people steal too, if they can know what happen falang will not have ploblem........"

" if i can drive pickup I not only kill one for sure"

Sincere congratulations and approval from all here on this farang's actions and wishing him a speedy recovery in time for the new arrival.

[mrbojangles]

I stand by the post I made at the start of this thread.

But in this case the burglary incident was over, done, finished. A dead parrot.

The burglary incident was not over, they where making a get away with his property, the incident was still in full flow

If I steal your wallet and run - is the incident over as soon as I have your property ?

I concur gharknes. The incident was far from over. Mr Jones had every right to persue them and to try and retrieve his property. IMO.

Too many people think we are still playing by the Queensberry Rules and the world is still like this:-

Victim - "Stop you cad, i say stop".

Thief - "Oh, ok then Sire, you have caught me red handed. Here is your property back with my most humble apologies"

Well the real world isn't like that any more.....unfortunately.

[Humphrey Bear]

I stand by the post I made at the start of this thread.

But in this case the burglary incident was over, done, finished. A dead parrot.

The burglary incident was not over, they where making a get away with his property, the incident was still in full flow

If I steal your wallet and run - is the incident over as soon as I have your property ?

I concur gharknes. The incident was far from over. Mr Jones had every right to persue them and to try and retrieve his property. IMO.

Too many people think we are still playing by the Queensberry Rules and the world is still like this:-

Victim - "Stop you cad, i say stop".

Thief - "Oh, ok then Sire, you have caught me red handed. Here is your property back with my most humble apologies"

Well the real world isn't like that any more.....unfortunately.

BJ - as I read the original article - the guy was beaten, hacked and generally messed with.

He LATER got into his pick-up, went after the men, saw them, chased them and knocked them off the bike. This wasn't 'hot pursuit', but cold-blooded revenge.

Doesn't matter if it was five minutes or five hours later - it became a separate incident.

It's a difficult call in my book, but I would prefer to prosecute than defend if I were a lawyer.

[Humphrey Bear]

Wonder where everybody stands on this, doesn't seem to be many responses to this thread.

Should the guy walk free or should he be up on a murder/manslaughter charge?

Well, lets say he put up a real fight ,chances are at least one of them ( the thais ) would be up on a murder charge, then how would we react, strange isnt it, its almost as if you have double standards,.i see this as a normal reaction, if some b@stards were in my house and had a go at me id have done exactly the same, i say good on him, this will be an interesting outcome for sure,

But you're prejudiced - he used a Vigo to run them down.

[mrbojangles]

It's a difficult call in my book, but I would prefer to prosecute than defend if I were a lawyer.

Difficult to prosecute them, if you've let them go, Humph. I still say, he had every right to persue them and to try and retrieve his goods. But we can only guess as to whether his actual motive was to kill one or all of them.

[Woofer]

I have mixed feelings on this one. I really hate to see the loss of life, but on the other hand, the miscreants went after the guy with an axe a f'ng axe! Yes, the guy's life was not in danger at the time of the automobile chase, but I still think the guy had some justification in running the bike down. Maybe he did not intend causing a death, who knows.

Maybe he will pay a fee and walk away from this.

TheWalkingMan

Yes and those personal papers may have been very important to him and thats why he gave chase. Having my house broken into serveral times I hope the farang get off and they catch the other two thieves.