Expats - Farangs Speaking The Local Language

[Ulysses G.]

My theory is some Thai people just can't get their head around the fact that a foreigner speaks Thai - They see a white face and their eyes switch their ears off.

Funny, I always have bigger problems speaking on the phone, than in person.

[Neeranam]

My theory is some Thai people just can't get their head around the fact that a foreigner speaks Thai - They see a white face and their eyes switch their ears off.

I support that theory - could give you similar examples.

[GuestHouse]

I support that theory - could give you similar examples.

I don't think I have a more clear example but I frequently come across Thais who just refuse to accept I speak Thai.

When living in Rome we regularly visited a Thai family who had a Thai housemaid. The conversation between my wife, the family and myself was always in Thai. The maid meanwhile would always talk to me in Italian, despite being repeatedly told I speak Thai and despite me only ever speaking to her in Thai.

Likewise on a trip to Tuscany we met a Thai woman (and I have related the story of the extremely personal questions this total stranger asked before here on TV) but added to that annoyance was the fact that despite me speaking to her in Thai and to my wife in Thai, she again ignored everything I said in Thai - other than to say something along the lines 'you speak Thai Nid Noy.. vely good'.

Now I don't claim to speak Thai like entirely like a Thai, but I virtually only speak Thai with Thais, including giving business presentations to Thai clients (Like I get rolled out infront of Thai clients to demonstrate this integration thing we have going on).

So I can't explain this refusal to accept that I speak Thai, other than my theory that some people just switch their ears off when they see a white face.

I contrast that with my experience of living in and learning the language here in Saudi Arabia, The Netherlands and Italy - Where the local people delight in hearing a foreigner speak their language, make allowances for mistakes and encourage the speaker to try (and enjoy their language).

As an aside - 'Thais who don't like foreigners to speak Thai - Well there is a reason for that isn't there?!'

And I take a very special delight in speaking to such people in their own language.

[Tinkelbell]

quoted ............"Also, because I've spent most of my time around Thai men (as opposed to Thai women), sometimes I'm afraid I sound kind of crass, especially in the northern dialect. That's normal, though, isn't it? There are a lot of foreign men around who've learned Thai from their wives and they sound almost like ladyboys to me, probably because they've picked up a more feminine sounding intonation and rhythm of speaking. "

...................................................................

Too True,

You certainly are a smart and intelligent lady, that's why you feel that way. I have to say you're on the right track.

It's a norm for highly educated Thais of the ruling class, are able to tell (more or less) about the person's background and educated level from the words and expressions in which that person demonstrating.

I'd like to take opportunity to express my admiration to several posters who had done an excellent job by taking times to learn Thai language, which is known for difficulty. Remember during student days at one of the top school in BK, most of students could barely passed the grade on this course. Thai gramma was a real killer.

[Blinky Bill]

During my limited time of 24 years in Thailand I have known so many expats who consider themselves fluent in Thai but when I hear most of them attempting to speak Thai it sounds like the scraping of fingernails on a chalkboard.

Another thing that irks me re expats and the Thai language is hearing some drunken character who thinks he can speak Thai "teaching" some other foreigner Thai words or phrases. It would be a lot easier to tolerate if the "teacher" knew the language.

[Rango]

It was important to me to learn thai simply so i could tell if the bargirls were talking about me and what they were saying. I don't always let on that i can speak and it can be pretty fun when my secret leaks out

But seriously, back in the US there is an ongoing debate, partially fuelled by racism, that immigrants should be obliged to learn english and the english should be made the "official" language. Sidestepping "right or wrong" on the issue, my opinion is simply that if you are going to live somewhere, things will be much better if you learn to speak the prevalent language...so i went to school for a month when i started coming to Thailand in order to learn the basics.

Eventually met a girl who didn't like speaking english. We stayed together for two years and she taught me a whole lot (including some phrases that aren't intended for polite company!)

Now, i certainly regard myself as above average, but only with speech. I have been picking up the letters of the alphabet over the last year and intend to move to Bangkok next year and enroll in classes to learn reading, writing and broaden my vocabulary.

I think its wonderful fun and a great trick to walk into a thai restaurant in Kansas City and start rapping with them like a native

[jumnien]

Learning to speak Thai is a complex process. I know some cranky, argumentative and angry farang who have "learned to speak Thai" very well in a certain sense. They can read and write and express themselves in a cranky, argumentative and angry manner very very well. I think they have missed a very important part of learning to actually speak Thai. Language involves culture.

[slackula]

I've been here 9+ years and I'm ashamed to say my Thai is woefully bad. I find it a very difficult language to pick up. I learned far more Mandarin working for one year in China than I have Thai in all the time I've been here.

I spent around 10 years working in the Middle East and also found Arabic much easier to learn from those around me. I think my brain must have some specific defect that prevents me from learning Thai (or I'm just lazy now)

[GuestHouse]

During my limited time of 24 years in Thailand I have known so many expats who consider themselves fluent in Thai but when I hear most of them attempting to speak Thai it sounds like the scraping of fingernails on a chalkboard.

For that to have any value as an argument you'd have to first tell us how good your own Thai language ability is that you can judge the Thai language ability of others.

[Rango]

During my limited time of 24 years in Thailand I have known so many expats who consider themselves fluent in Thai but when I hear most of them attempting to speak Thai it sounds like the scraping of fingernails on a chalkboard.

and speaking of fingernails on a chalkboard...I listen to an awful lot of thai music and that helped a bunch in developing an ear for the language.

[Blinky Bill]

During my limited time of 24 years in Thailand I have known so many expats who consider themselves fluent in Thai but when I hear most of them attempting to speak Thai it sounds like the scraping of fingernails on a chalkboard.

For that to have any value as an argument you'd have to first tell us how good your own Thai language ability is that you can judge the Thai language ability of others.

More proficient than most. Better to ask others that know me rather than ask for my own rating on my abilities.

Do you know the Thai saying......."When a dog craps there is no-one to help him lift his tail, so the dog has to lift his own tail to take the crap"? Something like "Wella maa kee, mai mi khrai chuay yok haang. Maa kee yok haang dua eng......" Sorry about the phonetics but I can't be bothered writing it in Thai script. Basically it means help yourself because no other bastard will help you.

[astral]

If you do not, at the least, learn the basics you are missing so much of the Thai experience.

Just be careful of the vocabulary you learn from the bar girls and boys..........

Bang ti, mai suparp

[realthaideal]

'Local Language' means a couple things depending where you are in the country. For me in Lanna land, local is Kam meuang, and I've only got about 50 words or phrases down. But they count a long ways toward acting/being local, and showing respect to the ppl here. As for Thai itself, speaking it all the time everyday for fun and business. How could you not ?

And I would add that I know it's difficult, extremely difficult, for so many to acquire Thai language skills. But immersion and insistence that you will continue sounding like a fool until you finally get it, is the only way to go. You can't be intimidated and fear 'losing face.' Making the mistakes is how we get better.

[grtaylor]

I've been here 17 years and speak pretty well. I don't use it often enough, as I work in an environment where everyone is supposed to use English. People say my accent is good, and as I'm a musician I don't have a problem with tones. I had lessons about 12 years ago for one year to learn to read, which I recommend to anyone. As far as I am concerned, that is when the lanaguage began to make sense to me.

I've been mistaken for an Indian on the phone - not sure if thats a compliment or not

G

[Blinky Bill]

I've been mistaken for an Indian on the phone - not sure if thats a compliment or not

Do you know the Thai story about seeing a snake and an Indian on the road?

[billd766]

I have been working and living in Thailand since 1993 but around 50% of the time I have been working offshore. Now at 63 I have been trying for an hour a day to learn Thai using Benjawan Poomsan Beckers first 2 books, Thai for beginners and Intermediate learning.

I have 2 main problems in that I am about 20% deaf in 1 ear and 30% in the other and I have a short term memory retention of about 50%.

I can remember the names of some of the teachers and kids I went to school with 50 od years ago but tring to remember the vocabulary that I read last week is hard going, BUT I will persevere and learn the language if it kills me on the way.

:D

[garro]

I have been working and living in Thailand since 1993 but around 50% of the time I have been working offshore. Now at 63 I have been trying for an hour a day to learn Thai using Benjawan Poomsan Beckers first 2 books, Thai for beginners and Intermediate learning.

I have 2 main problems in that I am about 20% deaf in 1 ear and 30% in the other and I have a short term memory retention of about 50%.

I can remember the names of some of the teachers and kids I went to school with 50 od years ago but tring to remember the vocabulary that I read last week is hard going, BUT I will persevere and learn the language if it kills me on the way.

Inspirational stuff, and I'm sure your positive attitude will pay rewards in the end.

I found that making myself practice formally everyday, for at least an hour, has been of great benefit.

[BlackArtemis]

After 2 years my spoken Thai is good, Thai people tell me I am fantastic, but I will go by my own standards. I don't have any farang friends and very few of my Thai friends speak English. My reading and writing is basic, btu I study 3hrs a week with my cousin, it is improving fast. However, my slang is phenomenal...

[MrBrad]

I pass as a Thai on the phone, so I guess pretty fluent.

I like to talk, so being here for almost 20 yrs and not being able to talk to the vast majority of people would have driven me crazy by now.

Also speak Northern dialect.

Is there any place in Chiang Mai that teaches the northern dialect? How did you acquire it, Sally?

[Gary A]

I've been mistaken for an Indian on the phone - not sure if thats a compliment or not

Do you know the Thai story about seeing a snake and an Indian on the road?

I heard that one but I like the lawyer and the snake better. There are skid marks in front of the dead snake.

[Neeranam]

I've been mistaken for an Indian on the phone - not sure if thats a compliment or not

Do you know the Thai story about seeing a snake and an Indian on the road?

Strange as Lord Buddha was an Indian.

I've been mistaken for Japanese couple of times on the phone.

[sbk]

I would say that my Thai is good but not as good as I would have expected for the effort I have put in over the years.

I have a large vocabulary but the fact that I can slip into speaking fast can make me hard to understand sometimes.

I live in a village where no English is spoken and do manage to have conversations with friends/family.

I would say that I have become less confident about my Thai as the years have gone by due to having higher expectations and a more realistic appraisal of my ability. I think that as your Thai improves and Thai people get to know you better they are less overboard in their praise. In the beginning any attempt to speak it would receive the praise that I was fluent.

I think that as signs of progress slow down, learning a language becomes harder. I continue to practice everyday though and feel convinced that one day I will reach the goal of speaking like a native. I think that anyone learning Thai should be aware that it is a hard task and it will sometimes feel like you are not making progress or even going backwards; at least that's how it has been for me. I do bellieve fully though, that if you continue to practice you will improve.

Have to say this has been my experience as well. Although most consider me fairly fluent, I do not and really can only see how little I do really know. still have a hard time understanding my mother-in-law as she is just too fast for me, the day I understand everything she says is the day I can say I am fluent

I pass as a Thai on the phone, so I guess pretty fluent.

I like to talk, so being here for almost 20 yrs and not being able to talk to the vast majority of people would have driven me crazy by now.

Also speak Northern dialect.

Ditto, but replace the northern with Southern. I picked mine up by listening and asking questions. My nephew was a considerable help. But, I do not speak Central Thai (only go to Bangkok once a year or so anyway, and we don't have TV so I have little opportunity to hear it or use it) and would like to.

I am ok with the fact that I sound like a Southern country bumpkin, fluent in the language of fishing, kids, the weather, boats, and tourism but not politics (like I said I picked it up by listening. I hear fishing conversations all day long)

[Blinky Bill]

Ditto, but replace the northern with Southern. I picked mine up by listening and asking questions. My nephew was a considerable help. But, I do not speak Central Thai (only go to Bangkok once a year or so anyway, and we don't have TV so I have little opportunity to hear it or use it) and would like to.

I am ok with the fact that I sound like a Southern country bumpkin, fluent in the language of fishing, kids, the weather, boats, and tourism but not politics (like I said I picked it up by listening. I hear fishing conversations all day long)

Waa pruu?

[Ieyuhrah]

I had the advantage of being there from the age of six until I was thirteen. I have also kept in practice ever since. While the opportunities can be limited (and were more so in '67 when we came back), I disagree with the premise that Thai can only be used in Thailand. It can be used anywhere there are Thais & Laotians (somewhat). Most large cities here in the States have populations (Dallas, Fort Worth, OK City, Tulsa, Houston) as do most universities (OSU, OU, UT, TAMU, & even extensions in large cities like UT at Arlington or Dallas). Then, there are churches and more recently, temples. I rest my case with the 30+ Thai restaurants here in the metroplex which are mostly owned & staffed by Thais and (all the ones I have gone to) have the items listed in Thai as well as English. No matter what your level, make the time to speak clearly and correctly. Mind your 'raw-rheuah/law-ling' and do not drop the 'r' from 'khrahp', no matter what anyone else is doing. As with anywhere else, you are comstantly being judged on how you speak. If you wish to be taken seriously then speak clearly (slowly if need be), avoid slang, and in all company never use curse words. My parent's language teachers were most adamant on these points. I still use a notebook and a personal phenetic system as well as a micro cassette player. The biggest criticism I get is that the words and diction are correct but I do not put them together in syntax as a Thai would. I am forever working on that! Always room for improvement. That is my suhleung's worth. Ieyuhrah~ PS The reading & writing are yet to come, but they will.

[too true]

I pass as a Thai on the phone, so I guess pretty fluent.

I like to talk, so being here for almost 20 yrs and not being able to talk to the vast majority of people would have driven me crazy by now.

Also speak Northern dialect.

Is there any place in Chiang Mai that teaches the northern dialect? How did you acquire it, Sally?

I'm not Sally, but I studied 4 hours of Northern Thai in Chiang Mai when I needed to learn a northern song to sing at a wedding. There is a woman named Petchara (I think that's it) who teaches it, but I don't think she runs regular group lessons - just private.

I learned the northern dialect just by being around people who were speaking it. The only time I heard central Thai was watching TV or listening to music, or in more formal situations.

[stevo2]

PH, just about to start at AUA, how good is it?

After 4 years can just get by but need to learn more.

I don't really see the point in going to "school" to learn thai when you live here. Get out on the street and listen to the locals. I bet AUA will be teaching you text book language which is not always the same as spoken.

I have been here for nearlly 10 years and have never had a lesson. I speak well and can also read. I can also get by in Khmerisan) as that is what my wife speaks when she is in the village. Cannot learn that at school as there is no written version.

[Jimjim]

I don't really see the point in going to "school" to learn thai when you live here. Get out on the street and listen to the locals. I bet AUA will be teaching you text book language which is not always the same as spoken.

Having taught language, I think it's best for most students to combine both methods (i.e. academic and practical "real" usage). You'll pick things up on the street that you don't learn in class, and it will reaffirm what you've learnt in class. Then, sometimes you'll hear something and understand the usage, but when you go to class you can get a more accurate translation of what you've heard. Also, a lot of people have a hard time just picking a language up on the street or are quite shy with another language so need a class or even CDs to get started.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

Hello everyone,

Really enjoying the discussion, especially about all the ways people have learned their Thai. Now I'm back in Canada but I was really starting to pick up a bit of the language on my last visit thanks to a nearby travel office. I was in everyday to use the Net and would ask an agent my language questions. She could speak English well and was able to tell me (with firmness, I might add) when I went wrong and how to correct my pronunciation. All I'm saying is that kind of immediate feedback was really propelling my comprehension.

I'm also learning Thai but on my own (with Teach Yourself book and CD, plus Becker materials) since there are no courses in Thai and unlikely to be here in the Great White North since there's no demand and, as others have pointed out, little need for the language outside of LOS.

Somewhat off topic: I'm sitting here with a Tai Oratai album playing. Now I know she's from the northeast but I'm not sure what language she's singing. It's been described a number of ways but is it I-saan? Is it a language or dialect.?

Thanks

[Lilawadee]

Isaan is a region, the North East of Thailand. In that region a variety of languages and dialects are spoken. Among those are Lao (or Lao-Isaan if you want), Khmer and others. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isan

Sticking to the Lao-Isaan language that popular folk singers sing in, I think it's somewhere in between dialect and different language. There's too many words that are completely different from Thai to be called just a regional dialect.

It depends largely on your definition of what a language is and what a dialect is; Wikipedia again has this very interesting definition that applies 100% to Thai regional idioms:

WIkipedia]There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference.

Language varieties are often called dialects rather than languages:

* solely because they are not (or not recognized as) literary languages,

* because the speakers of the given language do not have a state of their own,

* because they are not used in press or literature, or very little.

* or because their language lacks prestige.

Anthropological linguists define dialect as the specific form of a language used by a speech community. In other words, the difference between language and dialect is the difference between the abstract or general and the concrete and particular. From this perspective, no one speaks a "language," everyone speaks a dialect of a language. Those who identify a particular dialect as the "standard" or "proper" version of a language are in fact using these terms to express a social distinction.

Often, the standard language is close to the sociolect of the elite class.

Either way, I think most people will try to teach you central Thai, no matter what the region.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Lilawadee

[meadish_sweetball]

AUA Chiang Mai teach basic Northern Thai, or at least used to. Maybe it's a question of getting together a large enough group.

To foreigners who can already read, understand and speak Central Thai well enough to be instructed with Central Thai as a teaching medium, the monks at Wat Suan Dok in Chiang Mai teach Northern Thai script.

From what I hear, at Wat Suan Dok they will tell you if they think your Thai is good enough to benefit from the course.