Canadian shot on a songthaew in Chiang Mai

[Maejo Man]

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Not true fortunately. A .45 cal fired vertically has a muzzle velocity of approx 800 ft/s2 and on the downward journey it is subject to gravity and will accelerate at 32ft/s2 reaching a maximum that gravity will allow. It will give you a nasty bump, but hardly ever fatal. Different from a round fired at say 40 degrees. Then the projectile will retain roughly 60% of the initial velocity and WILL be fatal.

However, we are not here to discuss ballistics, but the wanton shooting on a vehicle where an unsuspecting tourist has been seriously injured.

It should not be too difficult to ascertain the approximate position of the shooter by the angle of the wound, and the positon of the vehicle at the time of the shooting.

[Heng]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

Sorry Thaddeus but sometimes they do come down with deadly force. A motorcycle taxi driver was killed by such a bullet (through the top side of his shoulder and down into several vital organs) outside of the Hua Mark police station/Ramakhamhaeng Uni shooting range several years ago. I'd imagine you can probably google for other instances around the world as well.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Heng

[Totster]

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Not true fortunately. A .45 cal fired vertically has a muzzle velocity of approx 800 ft/s2 and on the downward journey it is subject to gravity and will accelerate at 32ft/s2 reaching a maximum that gravity will allow. It will give you a nasty bump, but hardly ever fatal. Different from a round fired at say 40 degrees. Then the projectile will retain roughly 60% of the initial velocity and WILL be fatal.

However, we are not here to discuss ballistics, but the wanton shooting on a vehicle where an unsuspecting tourist has been seriously injured.

It should not be too difficult to ascertain the approximate position of the shooter by the angle of the wound, and the positon of the vehicle at the time of the shooting.

You are most probably correct, I was getting ahead of myself, I think I forgot about terminal velocity.. apologies .. but I'm sure it could kill !

Totster

[Heng]

I think Maejo is thinking about a computer simulation which would be correct... but in real life, you likely will never fire perfectly vertical at 90 degrees, thus terminal velocity is not the max speed at which a bullet will come down (in the same way say shells fired from a battleship in high arcs most certainly don't come down at mere terminal velocity). True, it doesn't come down anywhere near the same speed at which it was fired, but it doesn't need to, especially if it hit you in the head.

[meadish_sweetball]

Some more info on bullets fired into the air and their potential to kill:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

[kankaroo]

Anyone seen the movie 'Babel' ? this could be a similar situation.

[gregybn]

Edited February 13, 2008 by gregybn

[YaiJung]

Anyone seen the movie 'Babel' ? this could be a similar situation.

I was just gonna say that. Saw that movie last week so its still fresh in my mind.

For those that haven't seen the movie, two kids are playing around with a gun out of boredom while they are watching some sheep. They end up taking pot shots at vehicles far in the distance and end up killing a woman tourist on a bus. Nobody on the bus even heard the shot, she just slumped over. In the movie the authorities quickly figure out who did the shooting since they were in an extremely rural area and there weren't many people around so it was easy to narrow it down.

Who knows what will happen in thailand. Hopefully the cops will put some effort into it.

Horrible situation and I hope the man that was shot survives.

[LaoPo]

I think Maejo is thinking about a computer simulation which would be correct... but in real life, you likely will never fire perfectly vertical at 90 degrees, thus terminal velocity is not the max speed at which a bullet will come down (in the same way say shells fired from a battleship in high arcs most certainly don't come down at mere terminal velocity). True, it doesn't come down anywhere near the same speed at which it was fired, but it doesn't need to, especially if it hit you in the head.

Well, the non-believers could perform a tryout with a small coconut...throw it up as high as you can (7-10 meters is enough) and let it touch your head......

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

Yet another shooting...

but, very fortunately, at least he didn't die, as it seemed from his 7 hours of surgery, he could have very easily.

As for the origin of the shooting... speculation is rife, but seems that this case stands very little chance of being solved, more so than even the other shootings.

Could the thread title be modified to reflect that it was NOT a bus, but a songthaew? Thank you.

*edit. Holy smokes, that was fast. Thanks mods.

Edited February 14, 2008 by sriracha john

[Nataraja]

The Ottawa Citizen reported at 6:15 A.M. Thai time that an Ontario professor is apparently OK after having a bollet removed from his abdomen.

Investigating officer Lt. Wirachon Buntawee said police believe the bullet may have come from a nearby building and could have been discharged by somebody trying to shoot birds on a nearby telephone wire.

[Bluelotus]

The Ottawa Citizen reported at 6:15 A.M. Thai time that an Ontario professor is apparently OK after having a bollet removed from his abdomen.

Investigating officer Lt. Wirachon Buntawee said police believe the bullet may have come from a nearby building and could have been discharged by somebody trying to shoot birds on a nearby telephone wire.

Sounds plausible

[sriracha john]

If that was the case, it's hardly reassuring... if such indiscriminate and thoughtless firing of a firearm within a city is the cause, it's practically as disturbing as an intentional shooting.

[aaaaaa]

The Police here really do not do themselves any favours.

Right now the Canadian press are all over themselves re Thailand due to the recent murders.

How can the Police make such a rash statement. All they care about first and foremost is to cover up and minimise any potential damage!! Really is a sad state of affairs.

Without any real investigation, it really is not possible to say what happened, but if they are saying the shot came from a high rise, it doesnt sound to me like an accident, more like some clown taking pot shots!!!!!!!!!

last New Year 7 bombs were blown in Bangkok, during mass public celebrations - are there ANY results of those investigations?

Nope! rather government and police keep quite about it.

and here is some farang "accidentally" got shot - and hey, is isn't dead even!

surely it is insignificant incidents for Thai Police, which got used to farangs falling from high buildings, shot to death etc.

[Ricardo]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Perhaps friction, as it flies through the air, would mean that the bullet would land with less force, than when originally fired from the gun ? But this might still be considerable force, of course.

Hope he makes a full recovery.

[Seneque]

guns dont kill .........people kill

People kill with a gun ...!

Is there a vendetta against canadians ... and by extension against (the ever increasing number) farangs ...

[lannarebirth]

The Ottawa Citizen reported at 6:15 A.M. Thai time that an Ontario professor is apparently OK after having a bollet removed from his abdomen.

Investigating officer Lt. Wirachon Buntawee said police believe the bullet may have come from a nearby building and could have been discharged by somebody trying to shoot birds on a nearby telephone wire.

To draw a line between this mans abdomen in a songtaew to the wire, would give you the exact location of the shooter. So, what they're really saying, given this theory of the crime, is that we know exactly where the bullets came from, who did it and why, but we don't care to do anything about it.

Edited February 14, 2008 by lannarebirth

[Maejo Man]

The Ottawa Citizen reported at 6:15 A.M. Thai time that an Ontario professor is apparently OK after having a bollet removed from his abdomen.

Investigating officer Lt. Wirachon Buntawee said police believe the bullet may have come from a nearby building and could have been discharged by somebody trying to shoot birds on a nearby telephone wire.

To draw a line between this mans abdomen in a songtaew to the wire, would give you the exact location of the shooter. So, what they're really saying, given this theory of the crime, is that we know exactly where the bullets came from, who did it and why, but we don't care to do anything about it.

Precisely...Simple geometry. I also notice there has been no mention of the calibre of the projectile, or type of weapon that was likely to have fired it.

I still maintain that it was a deliberate aimed shot, (at the songtaew) and stirring up the local songtaew mafia is something the boys in brown do not want to get involved with, hence the ridiculous statement of "accidental shooting"

I wish the injured Canadian gentleman a speedy recovery...MM

[toptuan]

If the reports so far are correct then it sounds like this guy was the unfortunate victim of a silly mistake.

Firing guns in public places is far from a "silly mistake". In fact it is a very serious crime in most countries.

...but can average citizens own a gun in Thailand? My Thai friends are always chiding me about the "gun culture" of my western home country and wondering why we have so many gun-related deaths. What gives?

[Briggsy]

If the songthaew were moving at the time of the shooting, it would be more difficult to locate the position of the shooter. One would need to estimate where the songthaew was when the shot was fired. This cannot be too difficult though as traffic speed is likely to have been low and witnesses may be able to assist re the position of the songthaew at the time of the shooting.

If it were an accidental bird-hunting accident, the locals will know who was out and about shooting birds in a downtown area. In my experience it is far far more common to encounter bird hunters using catapults than guns. As an experienced bird watcher, I have only ever come across one person shooting birds with a gun and this was in a forest and he, the hunter, was most surprised to see another human there.

If it was one group of songtaew drivers taking potshots at a rival on their turf, this will create a problem in making arrests as dark influence will come into play.

I hope this case is resolved swiftly and competently and wish the unfortunate victim a full recovery.

[sriracha john]

Video of CBC Television newscast on the story including an exclusive interview with his wife:

http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/vsu/wmv-hi/sal...hoot-080213.wmv

"Long known as safe and friendly for tourists, Thailand has been downright dangerous for Canadians recently."

"...but, this is the third Canadian tourist shot in Thailand within the last six weeks."

[geriatrickid]

A gunshot wound victim is not an incident specific to Thailand.

The incident may be due to some idiot taking potshots at birds, according to witness statements.. Yes idiotic, but not with the intent of a random killing spree. Unfortunately, people discharge their firearms all too frequently here. The response so far is indicative that the matter is being taken seriously by both Thai and Canadian officials alike. Before anyone froths at the mouth, please read on

This event was a worst case scenario for Thai authorities.The victim is a former research physicist at York U now employed by a cancer treatment facility in metroplitan Toronto. His wife is an anesthesiologist. Both are known and respected in their community. When something happens to people like this, there are waves. Big waves. People are going to be justifiably outraged with the difference being that these outraged people can and do influence decision makers.

At first, the reaction from the Canadian foreign service was reported to be the usual non action. However, that appears to have quickly changed after some calls from Ottawa (see pt 1 above). It is my understanding that the Canadian government in Ottawa lit a firecracker under its the foreign service in Thailand. As well, the Canadian minister of foreign affairs was informed of the event. The Canadian government's concern was expressed to representatives of the Thai foreign service. The local Thai authorities are reported as being embarrassed and are making an effort to ensure Dr. Ling and her seriously wounded husband are taken care of.

The result; "Dr. Ling, the victim's wife "praised officials from the Canadian consulate in Chiang Mai, saying they have been at the hospital all day and said hospital staff have been "bending over backwards" to help. Ling said everyone they've met in Thailand has been "gracious and friendly" and she would have no problems returning to the country."

Dr Ling's statements demonstrate a gracious, classy lady. This is a couple that has suffered a horrible tragedy and deserves the best response the authorities can muster. The fact that she is a medical specialist and her husband a known published researcher triggers the VIP response. You can bet the physicians at McCormick Hospital are extending the utmost professional courtesy.

I am in no way downplaying the seriousness of the injury as they are still life threatening. 7 hours of surgery suggest extensive internal organ damage If the victim pulls through, he has a long and painful recovery ahead of him as gut wonds give rise to serious complications. However, in this case, the Thai authorities have responded well. In the coming days, I think you will see several highly placed officials visiting with Dr. Ling and expressing their sincere apologies and giving assurances. These are described as good and decent people that are the types of visitors Thailand wants and they will be treated accordingly

Edited February 14, 2008 by seonai
To make text more readable

[MarkBKK]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Oh dear. Someone failed their physics O-level, didn't they.

[Payboy]

So they dont have any leads but can still say that it was accidental.

at least that rules out attempted suicide....

[lannarebirth]

A gunshot wound victim is not an incident specific to Thailand. The incident may be due to some idiot taking potshots at birds, according to witness statements.. Yes idiotic, but not with the intent of a random killing spree. Unfortunately, people discharge their firearms all too frequently here. The response so far is indicative that the matter is being taken seriously by both Thai and Canadian officials alike. Before anyone froths at the mouth, please read on.

This event was a worst case scenario for Thai authorities.The victim is a former research physicist at York U now employed by a cancer treatment facility in metroplitan Toronto. His wife is an anesthesiologist. Both are known and respected in their community. When something happens to people like this, there are waves. Big waves. People are going to be justifiably outraged with the difference being that these outraged people can and do influence decision makers. (#1).

Now to the location, reported as outside Mandarin Oriental Dhara Dhevi hotel. This is a hotel for the well to do with cheapest rooms starting at 16,000B One report on the wires indicated that there were apparently distraught guests and they were making their concerns known. The authorities do not need or want people that spend lots of money getting upset for obvious reasons.

At first, the reaction from the Canadian foreign service was reported to be the usual non action. However, that appears to have quickly changed after some calls from Ottawa (see pt 1 above). It is my understanding that the Canadian government in Ottawa lit a firecracker under its the foreign service in Thailand. As well, the Canadian minister of foreign affairs was informed of the event. The Canadian government's concern was expressed to representatives of the Thai foreign service. The local Thai authorities are reported as being embarrassed and are making an effort to ensure Dr. Ling and her seriously wounded husband are taken care of. (pt. 1 again) [/size]The result; "Dr. Ling, the victim's wife "praised officials from the Canadian consulate in Chiang Mai, saying they have been at the hospital all day and said hospital staff have been "bending over backwards" to help. Ling said everyone they've met in Thailand has been "gracious and friendly" and she would have no problems returning to the country."

Dr Ling's statements demonstrate a gracious, classy lady. This is a couple that has suffered a horrible tragedy and deserves the best response the authorities can muster. The fact that she is a medical specialist and her husband a known published researcher triggers the VIP response. You can bet the physicians at McCormick Hospital are extending the utmost professional courtesy.

I am in no way downplaying the seriousness of the injury as they are still life threatening. 7 hours of surgery suggest extensive internal organ damage If the victim pulls through, he has a long and painful recovery ahead of him as gut wonds give rise to serious complications. However, in this case, the Thai authorities have responded well. In the coming days, I think you will see several highly placed officials visiting with Dr. Ling and expressing their sincere apologies and giving assurances. These are described as good and decent people that are the types of visitors Thailand wants and they will be treated accordingly.

That's a good response by the Canadian government , I agree. It brings into focus more sharply how little they have done for the other recent vitims of shootings here. It would appear the others did not belong to the correct socio-economic class. Is there any other way to see it really?

[silverhawk_usa]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Oh dear. Someone failed their physics O-level, didn't they.

First, the important thing is that the poor Canadian victim is recovering and I wish him and his family well.

As far as all the physics, the television show "Mythbusters" did a whole segment on people being struck by falling bullets. The final result was that a bullet, regardless of caliber, fired straight into the air falls at it's terminal velocity and is unlikely to inflict a fatal wound. HOWEVER, as another poster said a bullet fired at an angle (which is far more likely) will maintain sufficient velocity to inflict serious injury or death. This was of course backed up by many demonstrations and tests.

As for the poster who says "Draw a line from the abdominal wound to the wire" and you will know where the shot came from; Come on! think about this. You guys have been watching too much CSI.

A mere shift of a few centimeters in the angle of the guys butt on the seat would throw that off, the songtaew being angled even a little bit in the driving lane, hitting a small bump, anything would throw the angle completely off. Who can state exactly, to the centimeter, how they were sitting at a specific time and place in a vehicle. VERY unlikely.

Again, the fact that the guy has a speedy recovery is still more important than all the above speculation.

[lannarebirth]

As for the poster who says "Draw a line from the abdominal wound to the wire" and you will know where the shot came from; Come on! think about this. You guys have been watching too much CSI.

A mere shift of a few centimeters in the angle of the guys butt on the seat would throw that off, the songtaew being angled even a little bit in the driving lane, hitting a small bump, anything would throw the angle completely off. Who can state exactly, to the centimeter, how they were sitting at a specific time and place in a vehicle. VERY unlikely.

If this shooting had taken place amidst the skyscrapers of New York City, I would certainly agree with you. It seems to have taken place in Sankamphaeng, where you will have to look hard to find a 3 story building.

[Samuian]

An awful lot of people still don't understand that firing weapons in their air means that the bullets still come down with deadly force. Been to more than a few parties (yes, I DO actually attend more than a few country weddings) where some idiot will start shooting out of celebration.

Sorry Heng but, bullets fired upwards will always come down but not with deadly force.... bullets fired down will.

What goes up, must come down.. and normally with the same force (newtons law or summat)

Totster

Sorry, but it IS an urban myth!

has been proved by "the myth busters"!

It simply loses it's velocity traveling up - coming down falling... no more gunpowder driven speed - not more harmless then hail... it may cause some bruising but not be fatal!

[sriracha john]

If the songthaew were moving at the time of the shooting, it would be more difficult to locate the position of the shooter. One would need to estimate where the songthaew was when the shot was fired.

I think that won't be difficult as the effect of the noise and the bullet striking was immediate according to his wife. They should be able to pinpoint precisely where it happened.

[logpoacher]

The CBC report refers to three Canadians being shot, specifically Carly, Leo and Erik. No mention of Dale Henry?