Purchasing a pet--some guidelines

[KhunOr]

My first post above came out with really wierd formatting on my screen. I'm sorry! I'm repeating it and have tried to format it differently. Am just learning about posting here...

I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone about dog breeding and pet markets in Thailand. I hope that other forum users will add notes on their experience so that we can build up a body of information on this forum that will help anybody looking to purchase a dog. The best information would eventually be a list of reputable (endorsed by readers) kennels and shelters for all breeds.



Firstly, I am a Kennel Club registered breeder of English Bull Terriers. North Thai Bull Terrier Kennel (NTBT) is based in Chiang Mai. My knowledge is centred on Bull Terrier breeding specifically, but much of what I say also applies to other breeds. I strongly encourage anyone interested to buy a pedigree dog to buy them from a registered kennel that has a good reputation. How do you locate these? Well, right here I hope, but you can also find lists of breeders in pet magazines in any bookstore. A few also have websites and you can use a search engine to find those.



Secondly, I am also very much in favour of dog rescue shelters and other organizations that help sick animals, strays and unwanted dogs and try to find homes for them, usually for free. If you are not interested in pedigree (that is, parentage, health screened sire and dam, puppies that are guaranteed free from genetic and behavioural defects, properly raised and fed, lifelong support, higher probability of long healthy life, etc), then these organizations are a great place to find your companion. They usually advertise in local newspapers and put posters up in supermarkets. Nienke has also provided a great list on this forum.



My gripe is about puppy farms and pet markets. Puppy farms are places (often unregistered) that churn out as many puppies as possible, as cheaply as possible, mostly for bulk sales (whole litters) to pet markets. Some of these farms are actually registered kennels and so that's why I added the words "…that has a good reputation" in the second paragraph above. Pet markets, notably JJ in Bangkok, but also smaller ones found in every provincial city, are places where you'll find rows and rows of caged dogs in various conditions (that is the physical place and the animals themselves). The pet market vendors are rarely the breeders of the dogs they sell.



Some of the kennels and all of the puppy farms that I have personally visited in Chiang Mai have a number of very undesirable characteristics in common. Here is a partial list:



-Small houses in housing estates with very small yards and rarely any open grass space.



-Yards that are crammed full of cages to house dogs of all ages in cramped conditions, often caged on top of one another.



-Often several different breeds in the same farm, usually the most expensive/popular ones.



-Nowhere for the adults or puppies to run and play, except for totally inadequate "runs" of 3 metre long concrete strips where they may be let out periodically.



-Females used for breeding that are constantly caged (I've seen some with 3cm long toenails) and constantly bred from one cycle to the next until they are exhausted.



-Inadequate nutrition for breeding mums and puppies, usually feeding only the cheapest kibble and white rice.



-Inhumane treatment of breeding mums including the practice of starving the bitch before conception until her ribs and spine are clearly visible through taut skin, in the belief that this practice will lead to a bigger litter.



-Puppies weaned off the mother's milk within a couple of weeks (if they can get any milk at all) so as to be able to sell the pups to the wholesalers at 3 or 4 weeks of age.



-Reluctance or refusal to keep puppies longer than 4 weeks of age due to the cost of doing so. The cost of feeding puppies rises geometrically as they grow rapidly after four weeks, plus the fact that the longer they remain on the premises the more likely they are to contract diseases that require expensive treatment.



So, that is a description of where those puppies you see in the pet markets typically come from.



The way it works is like this: the breeders advertise in magazines in the hope of attracting buyers who will pay full price for a four week old puppy. In the case of English Bull Terriers this is typically 15 to 20,000 baht in Chiang Mai and 25 to 30,000 baht in Bangkok. If the pups are not sold by four weeks they are immediately sold to agents/pet market vendors at around 4,000 baht each. The agents/vendors ask no questions and are seemingly totally unconcerned about the way the puppies have been raised. For them, they are buying a product for 4,000 baht that they will sell for around 15,000 baht or higher and it is purely a matter of economics. They will spin tales to potential buyers about their products in the same way as any other market vendor in the hope of selling quickly.



If the vendors are not the breeders, you cannot expect them to know much about the puppies they are selling except for basic details about the breed.



What do you think happens to those animals when they reach an age that is considered too old to buy? Do you think the puppy farms take them back? You can answer that question.



Another important consideration when buying from a pet market is that diseases are very easily transmitted in such environments from cage to cage, usually by customers touching animals in one cage and then in another. I've spoken with these vendors who tell me this is the #1 concern they have. The #2 concern is theft by the way, since some cages go unsupervised for long periods!



My partner and I have been reduced to tears on some occasions after visiting disreputable kennels and puppy markets. You may feel sorry for the animals you see there too and that may be another consideration in buying them. But before you do that please bear in mind that you are only encouraging the practice by doing so. That cage will be filled with another puppy from a puppy mill as soon as you've bought yours.



I believe there is only one sound choice: either buy a pedigree dog directly from a reputable kennel, or go to an animal rescue shelter instead. Please leave the puppy markets alone.

[Nienke]

Absolutely great post, Khun Oh, I completely agree with you!

Nienke

P.S. Btw, I know Khun Oh for years and have seen some of his dogs. They are great and I know how well they are cared for both physically and mentally. Definitely recommended in case someone is looking for a sound English Bull terrier!

[sbk]

In fact, that is such a great and informative post that I am going to start it in a thread of its own

[girlx]

urgh it makes me sick to read how people treat other living things sometimes. thanks for this post!

[KhunOr]

Flying your dog around Thailand. An update to the puppy farm story above.

I have recently flown a six month old Bull Terrier puppy from Chiang Mai to Bangkok, where concerned customers were eagerly awaiting the new addition to their family. A lot of thought and preparation went into this exercise. Most important considerations were to buy a good cage for the trip and a drip feed water bottle. For several days before the flight we aclimatised the puppy to the cage for extended periods of time in a dark room and taught her how to drink from the bottle. Although flight time is only one hour, loading and unloading times add another three hours to that. Then there is always the possibility of longer delays from unforeseen circumstances. It is extremely hot at this time of the year and anyone who cares for their dog would surely allow her plenty of space and some water as minimum precautions, right?

Well at least that’s what I thought.

When we dropped our precious consignment off at 3.00 pm in the cargo bay she looked positively regal in her fancy cage with attached water bottle – big enough for her to stretch out fully in all directions and then some. There were several other minders there too with crates of whole litters, also waiting to be loaded onto the same flight. It was obvious that they were ‘going to market’ and not to some new owner’s home. The minders stood and stared at us, with wry smiles that seemed to say "They must be nuts". Cargo prices are based on the volume weight, hence the bigger the crate, the higher the cost. Their crates were small and cheap, no urine trays underneath, no water bottles attached. One crate held ten puppies that I estimated were no more than four weeks old. The crate was not high enough for the puppies to stand and was wide enough only for them to lie crammed next to each other. It reminded me of the pigs squeezed into the back of the farmers’ pick-up trucks that one sees traveling to the slaughterhouses.

At 6.30 pm we received a call to tell us that the flight had been cancelled due to technical problems. These things happen. The choice was either to send the consignment on a later flight that would mean a collection time in Bangkok of 12.00 pm (a total of nine hours traveling), or to take the dog back now and arrange a flight the next day.

When we arrived at the airport again to collect our puppy, there she was sitting up in her cage, looking forlorn and hot, but otherwise in good shape. She had drunk all but a centimetre of the water in her bottle, which showed how necessary that had been. The puppy farm crates were stacked in the off-limits cargo bay area nearby too. The staff confirmed that the owners had elected to send them on the next flight. I could barely allow myself to peek at them. The puppies were still, or panting meekly. Already at least four and a half hours without water and another four and a half to go.

And so that’s how some of those puppies you’ll probably see in JJ market traveled there from upcountry.

Khun Or.

[KhunOr]

Although nobody has written anything on here for a while, quite a few have emailed me directly for information about good kennels for various breeds of dog. That’s fine, but I hope that someone will get the ball rolling and recommend some reputable kennels right here on this thread. I’m hoping that this forum can provide a useful resource for anyone who is seriously interested in finding the dog that is right for you. Not advertising by the kennels themselves, but genuine recommendations by customers who have actually acquired a pet from them.

For FREE dogs, Nienke has provided a great list of shelters around Thailand on another thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90471&st=25

For PEDIGREE dogs, whatever breed, if you have had great service and personally acquired top quality dogs from a kennel in Thailand, please post your recommendations here so that others may benefit from that information.

[hanibal7]

So its no different from the uk then,some good some bad.

One thing you didnt put on your post was,when you sell your puppies,do you screen the buyers as to do they know the rules about keeping dogs now.

CLEAN UP THE SHIT AND WALK DOG ON A LEAD AT ALL TIMES IN TOWN.

Just wondering if the kc make the effort or dont give a flying eff,just like most of the thai owners.As per the population,money number 1,2 and 3.

[kirkstockdale]

So its no different from the uk then,some good some bad.

One thing you didnt put on your post was,when you sell your puppies,do you screen the buyers as to do they know the rules about keeping dogs now.

CLEAN UP THE SHIT AND WALK DOG ON A LEAD AT ALL TIMES IN TOWN.

Just wondering if the kc make the effort or dont give a flying eff,just like most of the thai owners.As per the population,money number 1,2 and 3.

Actually it's very different from the UK. In the UK they don’t leave dogs at airports for 8 hrs without any water or food. Coming from someone that has a picture of a cat on their profile, what makes you even think that you’re welcome to comment on something that you obviously know nothing about. As for cleaning up sh1t and walking your dog on a lead, isn’t that just common sense?

You obviously have a 0% clue of what you’re going on about. The farms in Thailand that breed dogs as a profitable business have very little ethics when it comes to the welfare of the dogs at hand. There kept in poor conditions, cramped spaces regularly without food or drink and the mortality rate for this kind of business is extremely high. Now you tell me how that compares to the UK, where every breeder has an obligation by law to respectfully take care of and re-home each and every puppy that’s bred. And granted, there are still rescue shelters for dogs with no home in the UK, but you tell me the last time you saw a stray dog wandering about the streets of England and I bet that you can count them on one hand. I drove 3km to my wife's sister’s house a month ago and counted 130 stray dogs just walking about the streets with no homes.

These dog breeding farms are the culprits of this trend. The Thai’s buy a small puppy from "JJ" market and then realize that it takes someone with a good caliber and an honest heart to take care of them lovingly, so they end up in the temples or at the side of the street, and there the lucky ones. The rest are either poisoned or tied to a noose and left to hang themselves. This way all responsibility on the Thai is absolved (BULLSH1T). In their mind’s the dog has a choice, not to eat the poisoned food (WHATEVER) and also it apparently has a choice not to pull on the rope that will eventually cause it to strangle itself.

What we are trying to achieve is an awareness throughout the community, so that crimes against these animals are not committed.

[jdinasia]

I would agree that buying from a good breeder would be the best option for buying a new pet.

That being said, since disease can get introduced anywhere etc, I am finding this thread a bit self-serving. The need for the font shift and bold etc show a lack of reasoning needing to be outweighed with bolding things up

These dog breeding farms are the culprits of this trend. The Thai’s buy a small puppy from "JJ" market and then realize that it takes someone with a good caliber and an honest heart to take care of them lovingly, so they end up in the temples or at the side of the street, and there the lucky ones. The rest are either poisoned or tied to a noose and left to hang themselves.

huh? did you really just condemn every Thai that buys a puppy at JJ as someone that leaves them at a temple or on the street .... or becomes a poisoner or strangler of dogs?

Your blatant agenda becomes sad when you stereotype people that way!

[KhunOr]

The need for the font shift and bold etc show a lack of reasoning needing to be outweighed with bolding things up

Hi jd. The only bold in use in this thread was mine. Sorry if it offended you. If you notice, it is the title only, emboldened for the sole purpose of showing anyone browsing that this was the topic. That does not show any "lack of reasoning". Methinks that you are the one with an agenda here.

As for the different fonts, I'm stumped by how that happens and it is not intentional at all. It comes out in any size and font type if you compose it in Word first and then cut and paste to this forum (as I do from time to time). For example I always type it in Arial 11pt and yet sometimes it comes out when pasted here in Verdanna level 3! I really don't want that to happen.

Anyway, glad that you agree on the best place to buy a dog. Can you recommend any please?

[jdinasia]

As I have stated in other threads, I am most pleased with both of our family pets that were purchased at JJ.

Like I said above your gross stereotyping of Thai people is offensive.

[KhunOr]

As I have stated in other threads, I am most pleased with both of our family pets that were purchased at JJ.

Like I said above your gross stereotyping of Thai people is offensive.

So glad that you got what you wanted at JJ. I hope that your pets (dogs?) will live long and healthy lives.

Who was that stereotyping comment addressed to?

[farangkwaiyai]

what I cant understand is why thai dogs are looked upon as ugly and dont get the same respect as a foreign dog. I rescued my dogs from seven11 but my lady says they are ugly (thai dogs) and she calls me dirty for stroking them. (in a non sexual way)

[KhunOr]

what I cant understand is why thai dogs are looked upon as ugly and dont get the same respect as a foreign dog. I rescued my dogs from seven11 but my lady says they are ugly (thai dogs) and she calls me dirty for stroking them. (in a non sexual way)

I think your lady's view is unusual. My friends (Thai) love all dogs and cats and especially kwai yai! However, a well groomed animal from good stock, foreign or not, may be more beautiful than an unkempt one - same applies to humans, farang or Thai.

[Skyline]

Khun Or,

I thought your post was spot on regarding the general treatment of puppies and dogs alike.Good post!

BTW,Any idea if a male Bull Terrier would be ok with my 5 year old Bulldog?I would like a Bull Terrier but worried about when the 2 dogs are older,will there be a problem with domination/fighting etc.

Thanks.

[KhunOr]

Hi Skyline,

Thanks for your comment.

It depends whether you buy a puppy or an adult BT and a male or female.

Any addition to the dog family should be introduced the first time in neutral territory as a precaution if possible. Bringing any new dog right into the home of another who regards it as his territory raises all kinds of insticts and it invites problems.

Once that is done, fact is that all dogs are 'pack animals' and in every pack, even just two dogs, one will want to be the alpha. This is natural for dogs and the one that is submissive is just as happy, once it knows its place, as the one that is dominant. When you introduce dogs for the first time on their territory (your home) they will quickly establish their ranking with each other. Chances are that any smaller puppy introduced to a larger adult dog will immediately behave in a submissive fashion (eye contact averted, ears back, head down, rolling over, etc) and when that happens the seal is set and it is unlikely that the hierarchy will ever change even as the puppy gets older and bigger.

The problem may come if you introduce an adult male dog to another adult male. Same hierachy needs to be established, but if they stand up to each other (eye contact, ears pricked up) and one doesn't back down immediately, it may require a scrap before it is settled. In most cases this is short and takes place within seconds after introduction (it takes one look to get them going). Once the scrap is over, then it is settled. When it happens you should not interfere. Don't try to prevent them settling the score. Only occasionally with equally matched and dominant dogs does the scrap becomes a protracted fight and in that case you have to step in and stop it if it if they are doing serious harm to one another and if it is not resolved in a few minutes (a water hose or a big blanket thrown over them can be effective). Trouble is they will still want to sort it out later when you are not looking and if that doesn't settle it, you'll need the services of an animal behaviourist to help them get along!

All of the above applies to any breed. English Bull Terriers are not aggressive dogs by nature and are unlikely to start a fight, though they will certainly fight hard if provoked. BTs don't get on well with strange dogs as a rule (ones from the street that come to pee on the gate, or make a run at them in a public park for example), but once settled in, a BT will not pick a fight with a member of its own dog family. If you buy a pure bred BT puppy that has a good temperament you would not expect it ever to become aggressive with your Bulldog.

Hope that answers your question, but if you want to know anything else specifically about BTs, I'll do my best to answer you.

Khun Or

[twschw]

I am not sure of the purpose of this thread. Is it for Bull Terrier owners, buying dogs, buying any kind of pets, conditions of breeding facilities, training dogs? I would like to comment on some things but would hate to post in the thread.

[KhunOr]

Well, I'm not the moderator, but as the OP I can tell you that the 'purpose' of my post was to inform people about some guidelines about purchasing a dog, any breed. Specifically to choose either a shelter, or a reputable breeder and to avoid puppy mills and markets. That was followed by a request for people to endorse any kennels, any breed, where they got good service. I happen to be a Bull Terrier breeder, but this isn't a Bull Terrier thread as such.

Don't be afraid to post!

I am not sure of the purpose of this thread. Is it for Bull Terrier owners, buying dogs, buying any kind of pets, conditions of breeding facilities, training dogs? I would like to comment on some things but would hate to post in the thread.

[Smithson]

Same hierachy needs to be established, but if they stand up to each other (eye contact, ears pricked up) and one doesn't back down immediately, it may require a scrap before it is settled. In most cases this is short and takes place within seconds after introduction (it takes one look to get them going). Once the scrap is over, then it is settled. When it happens you should not interfere. Don't try to prevent them settling the score.

This is interesting. I have read the opposite, that as the leader of the pack we should not allow our dogs to show dominant behavior towards one another. Most of all fighting should not be allowed, besides the danger of injury, the dogs can hold grudges.

We have three dogs, two are 10 months old (male and female) and the older female is seven. The generally get along well, but the female pup can be aggressive towards the others. Particularly resource guarding (food and affection). I think a lot of the problems stem from the older female being too submissive. I also think that the young female was taken away from her siblings too young (she is a rescue) and missed out on some socialization.

The only thing that seems to curb her aggressive behavior is obedience training. But it's requiring constant work, whereas the other two are fine.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Smithson

[KhunOr]

This thread is not about training, so perhaps we'd better PM on this subject, if you'd like to. I'd respectfully disagree with what you've read and stick to what I wrote earlier. I'd say that as leader of the pack we should not allow our dogs to show dominant behaviour to US.. , however we must let them sort out their own hierarchy amongst themselves. Your young female's behaviour is common - I had one like that too. She was the runt of the litter and craved affection. She attacked all her (bigger) siblings if they came for attention while she was getting hers. Persistent behaviour training was needed, but worked.

Same hierachy needs to be established, but if they stand up to each other (eye contact, ears pricked up) and one doesn't back down immediately, it may require a scrap before it is settled. In most cases this is short and takes place within seconds after introduction (it takes one look to get them going). Once the scrap is over, then it is settled. When it happens you should not interfere. Don't try to prevent them settling the score.

This is interesting. I have read the opposite, that as the leader of the pack we should not allow our dogs to show dominant behavior towards one another. Most of all fighting should not be allowed, besides the danger of injury, the dogs can hold grudges.

We have three dogs, two are 10 months old (male and female) and the older female is seven. The generally get along well, but the female pup can be aggressive towards the others. Particularly resource guarding (food and affection). I think a lot of the problems stem from the older female being too submissive. I also think that the young female was taken away from her siblings too young (she is a rescue) and missed out on some socialization.

The only thing that seems to curb her aggressive behavior is obedience training. But it's requiring constant work, whereas the other two are fine.

[fm2002]

I will never be one to claim I can read minds so nor do I know or care if KhunOr has an agenda or not. One thing I do know is his/her post was very informative and if it saves just 1 unfortunate animal from a untimely death it was worth every word whether it be bold, Arial, Verdana or #$%^ font.

Any animal that becomes a pet also becomes completely dependant and at the mercy of the owner and anyone who decides to become an owner should accept, respect and cherish this responsibility. Unquestionable companionship is a wonderful thing to experience not to waste away in a small sweaty cage!

Have been contemplating buying a dog for a while now. I've been putting it off because I have not yet acquired a semi permanent residence. One where I would know would be suitable for a pet. Second, I'm trying to determine which breed would fit Thailand’s warm climate. I have always owned Labs. My last one being Chocolate. However I'm not sure they would be able to acclimatize. Lastly, after fulfilling the first requirements I need to find a respectable breeder. I WOULD NEVER BUY FROM A MARKET! Not that you can't find loving puppies there, but instead would not want to promote, what KhunOr described, puppy mills in the business just for the quick buck.

Have looked at some ads of breeders, but love to hear from anyone out there who might know of a respectable Labrador Retreiver breeder. As mentioned not sure, but just in case.

[sbk]

To those complaining, Khun Or's original post was part of another thread about dogs. I found it so informative, useful and important that I split it off and started it as a topic of its own.

So, before accusing people of having agendas, perhaps its best to start out with full information?

[Smithson]

To those complaining, Khun Or's original post was part of another thread about dogs. I found it so informative, useful and important that I split it off and started it as a topic of its own.

So, before accusing people of having agendas, perhaps its best to start out with full information?

I wasn't complaining and I don't think anyone was making accusations.

[sbk]

I don't believe I named any names, and yes, I did see accusations of "self-serving" of "having an agenda" etc. Regardless, shall we return to the topic at hand rather than discuss moderation actions?

[Slip]

This topic seems to have gone quiet for a while. I'm looking for a lab too, and have been since about Mar/April. At the time my vet told me that all the labs had blood parasites, now it seems there's a national hip problem.

Aside from that does anyone know a good boxer breeder in the central area?

Finally, of course Khun Or has an agenda, but fortunately is kind enough to inform us of it clearly in the topic title, so I'm not sure what all that moaning was about. Thanks K Or for the informative posts. Sadly EBT's don't do it for me otherwise I'd likely be paying a trip to CM.

[KhunOr]

Thanks Slip.

I hope that someone will come on board to tell you more about Labs and where to buy them.

As for Boxers, you might like to try Nienke, who used to own Boxers and is a great fan of that breed. She doesn't breed them herself but probably knows where you might look. Are you there Nienke?

Perhaps you could PM her Slip?

Khun Or

[Nienke]

I had only one boxer, Kun Or. But DENITELY the MOST gorgeous boxer of ALL! :D And she caused my addiction to this breed. But no matter how much I would like to have another one, I have now 4 dogs of my own and I'm taking care of two more that were dumped. So enough for the moment.

Anyway, in the following thread you can get info on boxer breeders in Thailand:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...03&hl=boxer

Nienke

[Slip]

Thanks v. much guys:P

[hazzaxo]

Chiang mai is probably one of the worse places to buy pets from, but then again there are some exceptions. Here's an example of a cruel seller i saw the other day, i was walking through Gaad Farang, and towards the end of the line of stalls, i saw a woman selling some gerbils, rabbits etc. What i was shocked to see was a tiny, opened cage with 2 Siberian Huskies inside sleeping. I'm not sure if you've ever been to that market, but there's clothes, dvds, etc for sale and now huskies too apparently? But anyway, the point being, that market is SO hot even my mum who's Thai could barely stand the heat, And there's this woman with 2 Thick Coated Puppies in a cage. The Lack of consideration for animals in some people disgusts me, I'd have bought them just to get them away from the seller but as i'm moving back to England soon i couldn't.