When You See A Thai And Farang Together, Is Your First Thought That They Are Romantically Involved?

[intumult]

Cunning Linguists .... very good club/pub group who play some good rock/heavy rock.

(is the tongue relevent???)

[torrenova]

I voted yes, romantically involved before reading all the OPs post as I anticipated a male female scenario.

[kat]

So, while the "knowing look" may be out there - my guess is that comes only from a minority of Thai's who are generally jealous of something or other in the first place.

No doubt plenty of them think poorly of me, as do most people in the world, but if they don't say or do anything, then I simply am unaware.

Personally couldn't care less what most people think of me outside of work.

I don't think that's true, but if it is, something needs to be done about it from a variety of angles, starting locally. This sex trade issue is stigmatizing the children of mixed relationships, not just the relationships themselves. This is a serious issue for Thailand and its children. They have to step up with alternative measures of development for their underclass besides prostitution, because silence and denial has not worked but increased it actually.

Anyway, I don't feel like opening up a whole other can of worms, or moving off topic. Sorry for the diversion.

It makes me very sad to hear you say that.

[rixalex]

Rixalex, I don't want us to trip each other up, but I was merely referring to your comment that if you saw a Thai man and a Western man together, you would assume they were gay, certainly. Ergo, that would apply to any Thai man in your company; you could reasonably assume, by your standards, that others would assume you both to be gay. Was just thinking that it might affect your friendships with Thai men.

As for me, reasonably big-nosed whitie, yep! No, I can't say any of them are real bosom-buddies, no. Just see them for a jar now and then. But that's not because I'm worrying about what strangers are thinking; more like my rubbish command of the Thai language...

No, what affects my friendships with Thai men is that we just don't seem to have too much in common - well not enough at least for a really deep and meaningful friendship. I have nothing against gays and couldn't give two hoots if people think i am so inclined.

And just because i have an assumption that Western and Thai males socializing together may well be gay, why do you assume that this is something i worry about? Think it, certainly; worry about it, nope, got more important things to worry about.

[geriatrickid]

Wow, do I know what you are talking about on this one. I get those looks constantly and it annoys the hel_l out of me. It's sort of worse for me. My best friend here is 25 & gay and he's been like an older brother to me. When we go out, we always get the gawkers. He knows I get ticked off but he laughs it off with the comment, along the lines of "if those kwai think I'd "be" with an old fat guy like you, then they are ting tong." (Nice sentiment eh?) I can differentiate between the looks of moral indignation and the oh my what are those two idiots doing like we got at jungceylon when he put me in a headlock and started giving me noogies because I said he'd end up married to a fat lady from Australia once he grew out of his sexual phase..

I think the perv assumptions tend to be harsher when guys are involved. I used to go out with a cute researcher who was asian. She was 30 but looked 20 and no one mistook her for a bimbo and I never got the same sort of looks. When I do a roadtrip with my friend and we stay in a hotel, we are guaranteed the looks of disgust from other guests. I've never been hassled by hotel staff though. I do get puzzled looks when I reconfirm that there are two beds and have to explain that we aren't an item. I guess hotel workers just assume that if a farang guy and a thai guy share a room, they are doing each other.

[submaniac]

Hey folks, thanks for all the imput. I would also like to add that it is not the implication of being gay that I find particularly bothersome, it is the "I am a whore" thing. I will give you an example, and change the scenario where instead of sitting having lunch with an old farang, I am sitting at a table with like Ricky Martin (or whoever else gay guys are into these day). SO if people think I am gay, big whoop. I was obviously good enough to land Ricky Martin.

But the gay men who wrote about how their partners not wanting to go out because they believe they are rent boys, or of the man who took out his nephew and got looks, that is what I am talking about. The gay men who don't want to go to certain places with their boyfriends have the same feelings I do. I mean, I don't think they are "ashamed" of wanting to seem gay, since , well, they ARE gay. I think they do not want to feel demeaned by others thinking that they are owned and controlled by someone else. Especially since it seems that these guys are in healthy, stable relationships, where they are equals.

In regards to why I should be concerned about it, well I will put out my thoughts. When I see a young Thai with an old farang, male or female doesn't matter, and the Thai is OBVIOUSLY a prostitute, it bothers me. I won't do anything, or say anything, but in my mind I am bothered. I am bothered because there is a young Thai, who is economically disadvantaged, and who I am sure would rather be in school or in a relationship with someone their own age, being forced to sell their body simply because they are poor. Maybe they need to help their family, maybe their parents weren't able to send them to school. But they are poor, and I am sure they did not 'dream of becoming a prostitute' since they were a child, and would have been doing something else if there were more real, viable options available to them.

I am also bothered because there is an older person who believes that with money, they can purchase another human being. Just the idea of someone purchasing someone else for their own pleasure...it just does not sit right in my stomach.

[wileycoyote]

I agree with Britmaveric.

Due to the closeness of the poll.

I would have said ,it was more likely to have raised a second-look in the past.

Wiley Coyote

[SDH]

So anyways, am I the only one who thinks this/am completely whacko in my beliefs, or does anyone generally think the same as me? Just curious. Don't mean to offend anyone, or get into a deep philosophical debate here.

I'm a Farang and for sure without a doubt I would think that there was more going on......That's with you and your friend.

So I'm in a restaurant in Chiang Mai with 4 Thai friends (1 female and 3 male) and there's this Thai lady and what appears to be her mixed race 50% Thai and 50% Farang daughter. So I ask my friends what their first impression was of the situation, all 4 simultaneously answer that the mother is quite obviously a Ho/Prostitute! Yup there's absolutely no doubt in their minds! I ask them could she have been a diplomat and overseas and met a Farang at an embassy party and then married, they all answer nope she was working in a bar and for sure she was a Ho!!

Incredible Yes.........

[Jingthing]

I am also bothered because there is an older person who believes that with money, they can purchase another human being. Just the idea of someone purchasing someone else for their own pleasure...it just does not sit right in my stomach.

I understand being bothered that people might think you are a whore. However, there are all kinds of love relationships between people of different ages. Some younger people are genuine gerentophiles (sexually attracted to old people). Some relationships are economic in motivation, but still involve love. Some are pure prostitution. Who are we to judge? With any relationship between adults, the two parties bring different things to the table. Stereotypically, the older partner brings more money and security, and the younger partner brings more energy and beauty , but if the relationship is entered into and continues based on free will, neither person is really being bought or sold. Of course, your personal feelings are quite valid, but just pointing out they don't represent any objective final truth about relationships.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Jingthing

[SDH]

I am also bothered because there is an older person who believes that with money, they can purchase another human being. Just the idea of someone purchasing someone else for their own pleasure...it just does not sit right in my stomach.

How about this one.....

So I'm at an upscale restaurant in Chiang Mai with my Thai friend of 25 (looks about 20) and I'm a Farang of 48 (look about 48) and we're having dinner and drinks, at the next table are 4 Farangs 2 male and 2 female. So I hear them talking about us and my friend who speaks perfect English is sitting closer and he hears as well, they're saying how I'm taking advantage of him because he's poor.

What they don't know:

1) We came in his new Honda Accord to the restaurant.

2) He invitied me (why doesn't matter).

3) He and his family are independently wealthy.

So finally he has enough of their slagging us and wants to leave, so I say no and go over to ask them if they have a problem with us. They say nothing and I tell them a thing or 2 which can't be listed here.

Now my friends night is ruined and he has an opinion of Farangs that is less than pleasent.

[Jingthing]

Oh come on, you can't blame one Thai person for all the ills of his society.

[soundman]

In regards to why I should be concerned about it, well I will put out my thoughts. When I see a young Thai with an old farang, male or female doesn't matter, and the Thai is OBVIOUSLY a prostitute, it bothers me. I won't do anything, or say anything, but in my mind I am bothered. I am bothered because there is a young Thai, who is economically disadvantaged, and who I am sure would rather be in school or in a relationship with someone their own age, being forced to sell their body simply because they are poor. Maybe they need to help their family, maybe their parents weren't able to send them to school. But they are poor, and I am sure they did not 'dream of becoming a prostitute' since they were a child, and would have been doing something else if there were more real, viable options available to them.

I am also bothered because there is an older person who believes that with money, they can purchase another human being. Just the idea of someone purchasing someone else for their own pleasure...it just does not sit right in my stomach.

This view is both naieve and short sighted, if not trollish commentary that is going to lead to a discussion of the economics of prostitution (a topic against forum rules & policy).

[samtam]

Hey folks, thanks for all the imput. I would also like to add that it is not the implication of being gay that I find particularly bothersome, it is the "I am a whore" thing. I will give you an example, and change the scenario where instead of sitting having lunch with an old farang, I am sitting at a table with like Ricky Martin (or whoever else gay guys are into these day). SO if people think I am gay, big whoop. I was obviously good enough to land Ricky Martin.

But the gay men who wrote about how their partners not wanting to go out because they believe they are rent boys, or of the man who took out his nephew and got looks, that is what I am talking about. The gay men who don't want to go to certain places with their boyfriends have the same feelings I do. I mean, I don't think they are "ashamed" of wanting to seem gay, since , well, they ARE gay. I think they do not want to feel demeaned by others thinking that they are owned and controlled by someone else. Especially since it seems that these guys are in healthy, stable relationships, where they are equals.

In regards to why I should be concerned about it, well I will put out my thoughts. When I see a young Thai with an old farang, male or female doesn't matter, and the Thai is OBVIOUSLY a prostitute, it bothers me. I won't do anything, or say anything, but in my mind I am bothered. I am bothered because there is a young Thai, who is economically disadvantaged, and who I am sure would rather be in school or in a relationship with someone their own age, being forced to sell their body simply because they are poor. Maybe they need to help their family, maybe their parents weren't able to send them to school. But they are poor, and I am sure they did not 'dream of becoming a prostitute' since they were a child, and would have been doing something else if there were more real, viable options available to them.

I am also bothered because there is an older person who believes that with money, they can purchase another human being. Just the idea of someone purchasing someone else for their own pleasure...it just does not sit right in my stomach.

Well, the reason it doesn't sit well is that whether you appreciate it or not, is that deep down you are ashamed of the economic diversity that permits desparate people to sell their bodies. It's not an easy thing "to get over", but as long as there is poverty and lack of opportunity for the majority of the people of this country and others similar, there is going to be this issue. Somehow you have to learn of a way to deal with it within yourself. I know how much it bothers you for the reasons I mentioned previously and I cannot imagine having to deal with it myself.

Edited February 16, 2008 by samtam

[Heng]

It's not the farang individual + Thai individual that says one of them is a prostitute, it's all the other tells that allows folks to come to that conclusion, the main ones are a fidgety lack of confidence (kind of a fish out of water type thing) and a vague and often changing (over time) "how we met" story. Another thing is that because of the fewer degrees of separation in society here, it's more difficult to keep a skeleton in the closet.

[Prakanong]

It's not the farang individual + Thai individual that says one of them is a prostitute, it's all the other tells that allows folks to come to that conclusion, the main ones are a fidgety lack of confidence (kind of a fish out of water type thing) and a vague and often changing (over time) "how we met" story. Another thing is that because of the fewer degrees of separation in society here, it's more difficult to keep a skeleton in the closet.

I like the shifting story one.

I have two good friends in Thailand who have both been there sind 91 or thereabouts - both employed and doing rather well.

They used to be very good pals and if you go in the likes of Jools etc you will plenty of pics of them together at the likes of the Ploenchit Fair etc. One of them features in Stephen Leathers book "Private Dancer"

They have not spoken since 99. One of them met and fell in love with a girl from a certain bar in NEP and the other guy was there. The guy with the girl changed the story over time about where he met her but the other guy always knew even if he did not shout about it so they stopped talking.

PS - he is not with the girl now and married to a really nice girl with a lovely son

[mrbojangles]

I hate when people think of me as a prostitute.

And Scots wear no undies under the kilt either. Liquor is quicker Jocko.

Jockstars new work wear Kilt is quite fetching don't you think

[Jingthing]

This view is both naieve and short sighted, if not trollish commentary that is going to lead to a discussion of the economics of prostitution (a topic against forum rules & policy).

]

Is that strictly true? I thought academic discussions were perfectly OK.

[TheGameJustIs]

The thing about this topic which makes me laugh is that people get offended if others believe that they are a prostitute, or their mother was a prostitute, or they have an ex prostitute as a wife and they call these people idiots.

The thing is, because you are offended, it means that you too are concerned with class. By saying "How dare they think that of me"... You yourself are looking down at people associated with prostitutes, because you don't want to be associated with them.

So in a way, you are the pot calling the kettle black.

To answer the OP... Its usually very obvious whether someone is a prostitute or not, just like its very obvious to look at two people and tell if they are in a long term relationship or just met last week. There are many factors: the way you interact, the way you look at each other, what words you use, what you say to each other, the manner in which you say it, your comfortableness in the situation, the clothes you are wearing, the eye contact you make with me (a farang), what you are doing, the physical contact you make with eachother... And then of course the same things go for your farang friend.

You can probably spot a tourist in a second right? The cloths he is wearing, how he interacts with the locals, the words he uses with the locals, how he tries to communicate, the way he looks around when he walks, etc.

For the record, I don't really care what job people used to do. I don't think its any of my business, and to be honest, I am a really selfish guy because I don't really give the lives of others much thought. I am too busy enjoying my very awesome life!

[Jandajoy]

I am not voting because there is no "depends" option.

For some pairs, it is rather obvious, or at least appear to be suspiciously so. You know, the ones that have a certain "look". For most normal straight-looking guys together I don't assume it, especially if the Thai guy looks and acts "inter".

I admit that I have inwardly made assumptions regarding some farangs and Thais together (both male-male & male-female) and accept that I have probably been the object of such assumptions myself. However, I don't let it bother me too much because I know I'm not a prostitute and nobody I know, if they had bumped into us, would think so either. But if I had been one I'd probably (ironically) be a lot more indignant.

Assumptions are a killer aren't they.

[Jandajoy]

It depends how dark you are and what dress you wear. if you're really really dark and wearing cheap clothing and dressed like a slut then yes, I would think that you are a hooker. But who cares..... why worry what others (strangers) think.

What the heck has colour got to do with it?????

Edited February 16, 2008 by Jandajoy

[TheGameJustIs]

And my thoughts are just initial thoughts; I certainly would not make any serious decisions based upon this. It is just a 'first thing that pops into my head'. <br /><br />And once again I hope I am not offending anyone, I am seriously curious if anyone has the same ideas as me.

Don't worry man, you are normal. The guys who say "let anyone think whatever they want to think" probably have a reason to have such an attitude. Most people do care about what other's think about them. This is natural. We all want everyone to think highly of us, thats why we buy nice clothes, brush our teeth, wear deodorant, etc.

And yes, these thoughts pop into everyone's head.

So it goes...

[BFD]

I would like to say that I'm open-minded enough to not jump to the 'romantic' conclusion, but the reality is that my mind leaps there immediately.

Something in myself that I'll have to address, I suppose.

BFD!

[Jandajoy]

I think it really depends on how the couple are acting to each other. Generally I can't say I have ever really given it thought just on the basis of what they looked like but of course body langauge, physical & eye contact all play more subtle parts in sussing out someones relationship but no, I don't assume 2 guys together regardless of nationality or age, are a couple but for example, if I saw one of them touching the other ina gentle manner or flirting then would think they were involved or about to be as I don't know any straight men who would be overly physical or flirt with another man.

My wife's uncle (Thai, aged 70 ish, triple bipass) always holds my hand when we're out walking around. When, on the rare occasion we're in a restaurant, eatery or bar he regularly rests his hand in mine or puts his hand on my thigh. He's not gay, in love, or anything else.

It's simple affection as exists in many other cultures (Italy,Greece,Sudan). The people who have, unfortunately, lost touch with life and spend there time leaping to conclusions worthy of only the tabloid, gutter press are to be pittied.

[Jandajoy]

The thing about this topic which makes me laugh is that people get offended if others believe that they are a prostitute, or their mother was a prostitute, or they have an ex prostitute as a wife and they call these people idiots.

The thing is, because you are offended, it means that you too are concerned with class. By saying "How dare they think that of me"... You yourself are looking down at people associated with prostitutes, because you don't want to be associated with them.

So in a way, you are the pot calling the kettle black.

To answer the OP... Its usually very obvious whether someone is a prostitute or not, just like its very obvious to look at two people and tell if they are in a long term relationship or just met last week. There are many factors: the way you interact, the way you look at each other, what words you use, what you say to each other, the manner in which you say it, your comfortableness in the situation, the clothes you are wearing, the eye contact you make with me (a farang), what you are doing, the physical contact you make with eachother... And then of course the same things go for your farang friend.

You can probably spot a tourist in a second right? The cloths he is wearing, how he interacts with the locals, the words he uses with the locals, how he tries to communicate, the way he looks around when he walks, etc.

For the record, I don't really care what job people used to do. I don't think its any of my business, and to be honest, I am a really selfish guy because I don't really give the lives of others much thought. I am too busy enjoying my very awesome life!

We're all prostitutes. It's just a matter of "how much".

[TheGameJustIs]

^^The negative connotations with being a prostitute go deeper than the actual job. It is often an indication of the person's education, social status, and personal agenda.

[Jandajoy]

^^The negative connotations with being a prostitute go deeper than the actual job. It is often an indication of the person's education, social status, and personal agenda.

I know some extremely well educated, grade A society people who have happily indulged in prostitution for years.

Your last comment "personal agenda" negates any validity your posting may have had.

What's your point?

[TheGameJustIs]

if you say so.

[soundman]

This view is both naieve and short sighted, if not trollish commentary that is going to lead to a discussion of the economics of prostitution (a topic against forum rules & policy).

]

Is that strictly true? I thought academic discussions were perfectly OK.

You know as well as I where it will lead.

[Jandajoy]

In an attempt to stay on topic and throw in a couple of personal observations and pet hates;

Swampy airport waiting for brother with wife beside me. Mobs of tourists coming off plane and the looks, glares and stares of middle aged Falang women as they see me with my wife, who's 42 (I'm 52) but looks 25. "ITS MY WIFE" YOU DRIED UP HARRIDANS ..........

In England, in a pub and getting the verbals for having a beautiful wife.

Chang Rai restaurant for dinner. At the next table 2 US couples sniggering, sneering and frowning at my wife who's laughing and joking with her sister. OH, and they're drinking small Leo beers........ shocking.

The evident disapproval of european people who see a bright vivacious attractive woman in the company of a fat hairy git who loves his wife to death and is totally happy with his lot. And it's only been 2 years.

Rant over

[kat]

^Yes, I can definitely understand your complaint Jandajoy, but doesn't the same thing occur within Thai society? Also, unfortunately, the rapid rise and expansion of prostitution has come at a very high social cost. One of those costs is the stigmatization of almost everyone associated with Thai and foreign relationships. It is also fascinating how this then has a ripple effect.

For example, as a Western foreign woman that lived in Bangkok, I can tell you that I also look very young for my age comparable to your wife, and many of the nasty, unprovoked glances that I got in BKK and Chiang Mai were from older foreign men. This was as pronounced as when I first arrived, before I knew what was going on, as when I left. As such, I had friends of all ages. It was interesting to me how other foreign men would look at my older foreign males in my presence. And even more so when I was accompanied by friends visiting from home, one who was a very tall, handsome, young, black, biracial friend from home.

So, you see, those glances and nasty attitudes concern more than naive tourists who only read cues stereotypically. This is because the stigma that everyone feels is both stereotypical, and very pertinent at the same time.