Shafted By The Bank...

[Marvo]

Whenever I move money from the UK to Thailand, I make a CHAPS transfer sending £ Stirling to my Ayudhya account. This has ALWAYS been very efficient and predictable, ALWAYS arriving in 48hrs.

Last Tuesday morning I initiated a CHAPS xfer for a large amount, expecting to see it Thursday. Thursday came, no money. Friday came, checked am, no money. Checked TV friday pm, to find THE anouncement and the £ had dropped ANOTHER 2 baht in 10 minutes!

For sure my baht will be in my account 9:00 am Monday morning, after the bank have raked off the difference (120,000 baht).

Any way of finding out for sure exactly when the xfer reached Thailand?

I never realised how accurate my signiture would turnout to be.

[ProThaiExpat]

The bank will have a transfer receipt detailing the transaction to which you are entitled. See your branch manager. Many banks have those receipts online and they can be downloaded by the branch. If not, a simple fax from your banks transfer office would be the next step.

[Maestro]

Note: non-Brits, for CHAPS, read SWIFT.

Marvo, as ProThaiExpat says, ask your Thai bank to print out the transfer receipt or credit note or whatever your bank calls it. It will look somethig like this:

It does not give the date and time of every step of the transaction along the way, but if the date of the credit note is more than one banking day after the date of debit to your UK account you should have your UK bank inquire from the Thai bank why the credit was made so late.

First of all, though, you should check the date of debit to your UK account. Check it online, if you can, otherwise call the bank on Monday.

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Maestro

[Marvo]

It does not give the date and time of every step of the transaction along the way, but if the date of the credit note is more than one banking day after the date of debit to your UK account you should have your UK bank inquire from the Thai bank why the credit was made so late.

First of all, though, you should check the date of debit to your UK account. Check it online, if you can, otherwise call the bank on Monday.

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Maestro

PTE & Maestro, thanks for those pointers.

According to my UK account transaction information available online, the full amount plus transfer fee was debited from my UK account on Tuesday 26th Feb, the same day I actioned the transfer.

I'll see Ayudhya on Monday morning and let you know what information I can get regarding the hold up.

[julie_f]

I normally use SWIFT to transfer money and it usually takes 2 days but they do always say that it can take up to 5 working days.

Good luck getting anything back though. Had a similar problem last year.

[torrenova]

Whenever I move money from the UK to Thailand, I make a CHAPS transfer sending £ Stirling to my Ayudhya account. This has ALWAYS been very efficient and predictable, ALWAYS arriving in 48hrs.

Last Tuesday morning I initiated a CHAPS xfer for a large amount, expecting to see it Thursday. Thursday came, no money. Friday came, checked am, no money. Checked TV friday pm, to find THE anouncement and the £ had dropped ANOTHER 2 baht in 10 minutes!

For sure my baht will be in my account 9:00 am Monday morning, after the bank have raked off the difference (120,000 baht).

Any way of finding out for sure exactly when the xfer reached Thailand?

I never realised how accurate my signiture would turnout to be.

Sorry to say but if I had been moving £60,000 as you appear to have been (Bt2 difference = Bt120,000) then I would have been getting a fixed rate. For a few thousand it might not be so serious but unless you can prove that they did indeed receive this during working hours on the Thursday then you've had it.

When I've sent SWIFTs I have a value date so I know when the money will be there. If the value date was Thursday then you'd have a case. I'd have asked the money market people at the bank to give me a rate and if it wasn't too bad I'd have locked in (obvious exceptions for onshore / offshore discrepancies).

[briley]

I did an ATM withdrawal yesterday before I heard of the Baht drop. But the rate I got that showed up today was back up again, at 63.5 Bath to the GBP (Nationwide BS rate)

Maybe it won't be so bad for the OP.

[Marvo]

Sorry to say but if I had been moving £60,000 as you appear to have been (Bt2 difference = Bt120,000) then I would have been getting a fixed rate. For a few thousand it might not be so serious but unless you can prove that they did indeed receive this during working hours on the Thursday then you've had it.

I called Ayudhya treasury dept. before sending the cash (using the number at the foot of their exchage rate page on-line). They say to call them first before making xfers in excess of $10,000 or equivalent. I told them I am about to make a stirling transfer, that the xfer should arrive with them in two days and asked them what rate they could give me as it was a largish amount. A gentleman told me with great cirtainty that they could not give me a rate, I have to send the money and the rate is "negotiated" based on the rate as it stands on the day the money arrives with them.

We'll see on Monday if the cash suddenly appears and what documentation the bank keeps (or are prepared to divulge) regarding the arrival of overseas transfers.

I did an ATM withdrawal yesterday before I heard of the Baht drop. But the rate I got that showed up today was back up again, at 63.5 Bath to the GBP (Nationwide BS rate)

Maybe it won't be so bad for the OP.

I'll try to stay optomistic briley, but it looks like you made your withdrawal and got the old rate before the rates were adjusted late on Friday.

[Maestro]

Marvo, if your remittance from the UK gets credited to your Thai account late and you lose money because of it, don’t let them sweet-talk you into accepting it. I just remembered that for a SWIFT remittance the receiving bank’s computer sends an acknowledgment of receipt to the sending bank’s computer, called a SWIFT log, I believe, and this has more details about the timeline of the remittance than the credit note. If Bank of Ayudhya doesn’t want to give you a copy of this log, insist with your UK bank to get it from them.

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Maestro

[Marvo]

...the receiving bank's computer sends an acknowledgment of receipt to the sending bank's computer, called a SWIFT log, I believe, and this has more details about the timeline of the remittance...

Thanks for that Maestro. Sending bank not yet recieved anything from receiving bank (Sunday). I'm off to Ayudhya now for a "face off". Checked the account on-line this a.m. but funds not been credited to the account yet. - Pound up 0.25 baht at first rate update this morning BTW.

[sonicdragon]

It is important to understand that SWIFT is not a payment system. It is a messaging system network - it is an electronic instruction, in many ways like a fax or an email except that it is formatted, secure, and acknowledged - it is not a transfer in itself. The final transfer (from the correspondent bank to the receiving bank) only takes place after the funds have been credited by the correspondent bank to the account it holds for the beneficiary bank, and even after that there is usually some further procudure at the receiving bank to enable the funds to be credited to the beneficiary. These are seperate steps and it goes some way to explain why cross border transfers sometimes take several days. In my company, there is sometimes a 2 day backlog of payments waiting to be input (after the SWIFT message is received). Some transfers also require the approval of a compliance officer before they can be actioned, particularly when there are capital controls involved, or changes in the same. In the recent situation where there has been intense speculation about the lifting of capital controls, and then it actually happening, I expect there would also have been a much larger volume of Thailand-bound payments. There could be delays at the remitting bank, at the correspondent bank (the most likely scenario) or at the receiving bank. You will usually find some fine print in a bank's terms and conditions that they are not liable for delays in cross border payments, and getting a bank to reimburse any losses for delay is a gargantuan task.

[Maestro]

In Marvo’s case it appears to be clearly a delay by the receiving bank after receiving the SWIFT message, based on the information provided by Marvo. UK account debited on February 28 (this should be the date when the SWIFT message was sent). Thai account not yet credited as of 09:10 hours on 3 March.

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Maestro

[Maestro]

It took me some time to find a SWIFT message on my files and I now attach it.

For privacy reasons I have pixelated a lot of information, which was the following for the indicated codes in the “messagestring”:

32A: date and amount remitted

33B: amount remitted

50K: name and address of remitter

52A: SWIFT code of sending bank

53A: SWIFT code of sending bank (could perhaps be code of intermediary bank if such is involved)

54A: SWIFT code of receiving bank

59: account number, name and address of beneficiary

70: message for beneficiary

32A: date and amount remitted

53A: SWIFT code of sending bank (could perhaps be code of intermediary bank if such is involved)

58A: SWIFT code of receiving bank

Information on the timeline is in the header, where the sending date and the receiving date are shown. The time and the time zone are not shown. SWIFT being an electronic transmission the message obviously arrives at the Thai bank within seconds after it is sent by the UK bank.

Marvo, as Sonicdragon says your Thai bank may have clauses in the small print that absolves it of any liability in case of even an unusually long delay, but let them show you if you signed any such thing.

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Maestro

[sonicdragon]

It took me some time to find a SWIFT message on my files and I now attach it.

For privacy reasons I have pixelated a lot of information, which was the following for the indicated codes in the "messagestring":

32A: date and amount remitted

33B: amount remitted

50K: name and address of remitter

52A: SWIFT code of sending bank

53A: SWIFT code of sending bank (could perhaps be code of intermediary bank if such is involved)

54A: SWIFT code of receiving bank

59: account number, name and address of beneficiary

70: message for beneficiary

32A: date and amount remitted

53A: SWIFT code of sending bank (could perhaps be code of intermediary bank if such is involved)

58A: SWIFT code of receiving bank

Information on the timeline is in the header, where the sending date and the receiving date are shown. The time and the time zone are not shown. SWIFT being an electronic transmission the message obviously arrives at the Thai bank within seconds after it is sent by the UK bank.

Marvo, as Sonicdragon says your Thai bank may have clauses in the small print that absolves it of any liability in case of even an unusually long delay, but let them show you if you signed any such thing.

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Maestro

I assume he has sent sterling. That means that there almost certainly IS an intermediate bank (correspondent bank) involved. The time that the UK bank debited his account relates to the transfer between the sending bank and the correspondent bank. The message may well have been received by the receiving (Thai) bank almost instantly, but this does NOT mean that the funds were credited to the receiving bank by the correspondent bank. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the funds were credited to the correspondent bank. It just means tha the sending bank has processed the transaction on their retail side. In most casese of delayed cross border payments the delay occurs within the correspondent bank.

The small print referred to is usually part of the terms and conditions of opening the account - not agreed to at the time of the transfer.

[Maestro]

For my transfers to Thailand the receiving bank in Thailand, Bank of Ayudhya (BAY), happens to be a correspondent bank of my Swiss bank, which means that the Swiss bank has an account at BAY. Therefore, for the sums I transfer, the Swiss bank’s SWIFT message simply asks BAY to debit their account with BAY and credit my Thai account. For an extraordinarily large amount it could, however, mean that the Swiss bank might have to replenish their account at BAY first before BAY could credit my account, and this would then result in a later credit to my account than usual.

I suspect that the “OUR” under code 71A refers to the sending bank’s account which the receiving bank is being instructed to debit with the amount to be credited to my account.

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Maestro

[sonicdragon]

For my transfers to Thailand the receiving bank in Thailand, Bank of Ayudhya (BAY), happens to be a correspondent bank of my Swiss bank, which means that the Swiss bank has an account at BAY. Therefore, for the sums I transfer, the Swiss bank's SWIFT message simply asks BAY to debit their account with BAY and credit my Thai account. For an extraordinarily large amount it could, however, mean that the Swiss bank might have to replenish their account at BAY first before BAY could credit my account, and this would then result in a later credit to my account than usual.

I suspect that the "OUR" under code 71A refers to the sending bank's account which the receiving bank is being instructed to debit with the amount to be credited to my account.

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Maestro

Swiss banks are quite well known for having many senior correspondent banking relationships. UK high-street banks tend not to do so.

The point I am trying to make is the that SWIFT MT103 message is just that - a message. In order for a transfer to take place further procedures are required. For a variety of reasons these procedures often takes place a lot later. End-to-end straight-through cross border payments are, unfortunately, still a thing of fantasy.

The 71A tag in a SWIFT MT103 message specifies which party is to bear transaction charges. "OUR" means the charges are to be borne by the sender. Other options are "BEN" (beneficiary) and "SHA" (shared)

[Maestro]

Thanks. That cleared up the puzzle I had about the 71A tag.

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Maestro

[Marvo]

Whenever I move money from the UK to Thailand, I make a CHAPS transfer sending £ Stirling to my Ayudhya account. This has ALWAYS been very efficient and predictable, ALWAYS arriving in 48hrs.

Last Tuesday morning I initiated a CHAPS xfer for a large amount, expecting to see it Thursday. Thursday came, no money. Friday came, checked am, no money. Checked TV friday pm, to find THE anouncement and the £ had dropped ANOTHER 2 baht in 10 minutes!

For sure my baht will be in my account 9:00 am Monday morning, after the bank have raked off the difference (120,000 baht).

Any way of finding out for sure exactly when the xfer reached Thailand?

I never realised how accurate my signiture would turnout to be.

OK, for those still remotely curious (if anybody), here are the facts behind the previous uncirtainty in the original post:

1) The SWIFT xfer from the UK arrived with Ayudhya within 24 hrs.

2) Ayudhya DID in fact try to call me the very day the xfer arrived with them.

3) Xfers received by Ayudhya in excess of $10,000 US or equivalent are held by the bank in the arriving currency to await the customer's visit to the bank and sign a form giving confirmation of "reason for transfer". After that, it is then converted into baht, whenever you want it - just give them the word and the rate at that moment is applied. I took the rate they gave me one day after signing the form - 62.55 to £1.

4) Last year I got a new mobile number, so at that time I logged in to my online Ayudhya account and changed my personal details accordingly in the "Profiles" section of the site. i.e. updated my phone number held by the bank in the relevent section.

5) The bank holds 2 separate databases of account holders details: "In-branch" and "on-line".

6) The two databases are not linked.

In my case, the "on-line" account holder information was correct but the information (inc. phone number) being accessed by staff "in-branch" is the info on the original datebase created from the account application form (i.e. the old/wrong phone number). This is the number they tried to call me on. So, the lesson learned is that as far as Ayudhya are concerned, updating account holder information on-line does not update the information that the bank employees see "in-bank". Both databases have to be manually updated independantly.

Until this week, my Thai banking had run without a hitch, but his little "quirk" cost me dearly so I hope the above info can save someone some grief in the future.

[Maestro]

Thanks for the info. I was indeed curious.

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Maestro

[torrenova]

OK, I'll wade back into this.

Let's pick something like a cross currency swap. Now every 6 months (can differ I know) you have a reset date and a dat eupon which there must be a payment made to the other party. If these payments do not arrive on time, then the one who is late pays to have back valuation on the recipient's account or debit interest as there is a technical overdraft.

These payments are usually made by swift and they number tens of thousands and upwards each day. The amounts which can include exchange of notionals, can be huge.

Now if these swift mechanisms were not reliable to deliver money on time where it is supposed to be, then there would be total chaos. Banks fund ahead for the balance they expect to have in each currency. Thus if a bank needs to send $100,000,000 it would fund 1 day in advance as for USD. Different currencies have different funding times. Now imaging if that $100m does not arrive on a Friday and arrives on a Monday and the $ interest rate is 7%, then the cost is $100m*7%/360*3 (on 360 basis) = $58,333. This could be higher with penal interest if no backvaluation can be achieved.

So when I want $100m in HSBC in Bangkok on 13/2/08, it dam_n well gets there and I know that. Swifts for smaller amounts also have their value dates and the sending bank will know and can advise the value date.

As an actual example. HSBC UK's correspondent bank in Thailand is HSBC Bangkok (surprisingly). Now if I send GBP to my Bangkok Bank account, it may be delayed at Bangkok Bank but as long as HSBC Bangkok does it right, then the issue is with Bangkok Bank. Between the two HSBCs it is a pure accounting transaction.

As for not being able to get a rate then that is just crap they were telling the OP. OK, I know more than the muppets in the hgh street branches and can talk dealer talk to the fx spot and forward guys but it is not rocket science. Just tel the grunt to phone the fx desk and get a spot rate for XYZ cash amount. They will then put that on the forms. This can beat the local rats but you have to know the local rates beforehand.