School Raided In Chiang Mai

[sceadugenga]

Link

Police Raid Burmese Migrant School in Chiang Mai.

Thai police on Thursday raided an unregistered school for Burmese migrant workers in Chiang Mai, offering courses in languages and computer skills, according to school staff.

Thein Lwin, an organizer of the school, known as the Chiang Mai Learning Center, told The Irrawaddy on Friday that Thai police inspected the school for one and half hours and seized six motorbikes own by students.

One student, Sai Lu, was arrested.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't they have better things to do?

[Puwa]

Let me point out that there is nothing in the article to suggest any connection between the school and its students and motorbike theft. Just because the students come from Burma doesn't mean they are stealing bikes. And the police may have taken the bikes away for any number of reasons, or just on a whim. I suggest that the topics be separated into two threads, one on the original story and another on motorbike theft.

[p1p]

Let me point out that there is nothing in the article to suggest any connection between the school and its students and motorbike theft. Just because the students come from Burma doesn't mean they are stealing bikes. And the police may have taken the bikes away for any number of reasons, or just on a whim. I suggest that the topics be separated into two threads, one on the original story and another on motorbike theft.

Done

[bunta71]

probably more to the story that we don't know about.Not to minimize UG's statement about not having better things to do. We aren't in Kansas anymore and we all know that most (not all) police here are nothing more than armed bandits always looking for monetary gain,in any manner they can. I spent my military time as a Military policeman.There the motivation was more of a power-tripping thing. I now have a feeling that anyone who wants to be a policeman SHOULDN"T be allowed to. There are good cops everywhere though and I realize that. With my experience though I found them to be few and far between. Most of the good ones retired in Thailand

[Rasseru]

. . . . . I spent my military time as a Military policeman.There the motivation was more of a power-tripping thing. I now have a feeling that anyone who wants to be a policeman SHOULDN"T be allowed to. . . . .

Well done, acquiring such wisdom from experience.

[bunta71]

People live,change, move on, just my opinion...not worth much

[waveydavey]

This article on the subject was in Todays Bangkok Post -

UNEASY RIDERS

Migrant workers who shell out their hard-earned money for two-wheeled transportation are forced to live in fear of routine police raids in which their motorbikes are confiscated and used to extract stiff fines, writes ERIKA FRY from Chiang Mai

Well before dawn on a December morning last year, Sai Sai was asleep and nearly naked when police tugged at his blanket and charged him with riding a motorbike without a licence.

At the time, it was a direction he'd never dreamed the morning - however, rudely begun - would take.

He'd assumed this was just another of the jarring, but not unprecedented, 5 a.m. raids that police occasionally carry out at migrant camps to check legal documents and work permits.

Sai Sai has lived at the camp on the outskirts of Chiang Mai, working construction, for the past four years. He lives there with his wife and daughter in a house far less glamorous than the ones he builds, scraped together from cardboard and corrugated sheet metal.

That morning the police had shown up at the camp in force - about 30 officers in four trucks, and with a reporter taking pictures that would run the next day in the pages of the Chiang Mai Daily News.

A migrant camp, like those raided near Chiang Mai.

A migrant workers' home. Low wages make finding shelter difficult.

By migrants' accounts, the officers took the homes by storm. Sai Sai says they'd nearly brought down his door and his bedroom's mosquito netting. Other migrants in the camp said they lost cameras and cell phones in the raid because officers told them they had "no right to use them". Sai Sai's three-year-old daughter, to the scorn of an officer, began to cry.

Even so, Sai Sai was confident, as he and his family filed outside on the orders of the officer, that'd he'd done nothing wrong and they'd have no problems. He is a registered worker, he works hard and he is "not a bad man."

But by the episode's end, hours later, he'd had "his" motorbike confiscated, visited two police stations, and paid 1,600 baht (though official receipts were written for less) for an infraction that police were telling him he'd committed in his sleep. (At the station, Sai Sai asked how he could be charged with driving a motorbike when he had been sleeping, but was given no answer).

Twenty-six others in the camp were found guilty of the same thing.

An officer with the Region 5 Police force that raided Sai Sai's camp explained that such sweeps at migrant camps are routine. The station tries to conduct about 10 such sweeps per month in an effort to manage illegal migration - an increasing problem for the province - as well as to check for stolen motorcycles, which he says have also been on the rise in the region, and are oftentimes taken by gangs of migrant motorcycle bandits.

He considers the raids an important means to maintaining national security - and explained that heightened surveillance of the migrant population has been policy since 2000, when Burmese rebels took control of hundreds of hostages at a hospital in Ratchaburi.

He also explained that police have the power to confiscate a bike if it is not in the possession of its registered owner. Migrant workers cannot obtain a licence to drive motorbikes, nor can they register a bike under their name, said the officer, so the 27 in possession of workers at Sai Sai's camp had been accordingly seized.

Nonetheless, Sai Sai had had his motorbike for over a year. He used it to drive around his work site and to take his daughter to school. He was paying for the bike - registered for him by his employer - in monthly installments. At the time of the police raid, Sai Sai had provided the officers his employer's registration documents and a receipt of payment that bore his own name.

The police told him that he was an alien and that he had no right to buy a bike.

Yet Sai Sai is hardly the first migrant worker to have purchased a bike; and he is one of an increasing number to have had a bike confiscated - and at some cost, returned - in raids that police contend are routine, and human rights groups denounce as corrupt, discriminatory and unlawful.

Though migrant workers cannot register motorbikes, many are allowed to purchase them.

Most migrants understand they drive a motorbike at a risk, and that using one invites the same quiet, unquestioned (though, as a migrant, slightly more costly - anywhere from 200-2,000 baht) exchanges most Thai motorists have with traffic policemen.

Whether for reasons of practicality or convenience, many migrant workers still decide to pay for motorbikes and whatever additional fees are asked of them - by shopkeepers or individuals that register the bikes - for the service. Employers, relatives, and bike shop owners - the last of which tend to be the most unscrupulous brokers - often register the bikes for the migrants and collect upwards of 500 baht for the favour. A fee is also charged on occasions when they are asked to go retrieve a confiscated bike from a police station.

Inevitability of exploitation

The workers' willingness to submit themselves to this sort of screwed-at-every-turn scheme may stem from widespread confusion over rules, as well as what they perceive as the inevitability of exploitation.

Workers in Chiang Mai province are not subject to the strict decrees implemented in Phang-nga and a few other provinces - restricting mobile phone use and movement after dark, for example. The decrees were once proposed in Chiang Mai, however, and many people - migrants and advocacy workers included - are unclear on what the rules really are.

Migrants who believe they are under the thumb of such strict regulations are often resigned to the thought that they will have to break them. As well, the uncertainty seems to have encouraged exploitation and adhoc rulemaking by authorities in some communities. The headman in a village near Mae Rim, for example, subjects migrant workers to a 6 p.m. curfew (he collects 600 baht when he sees them out) and a prohibition on growing sweet peppers - which one season had brought the migrant farmers more profits than flower-growing Thai farmers.

Meanwhile, the migrants' confiscated motorbikes are suspected "stolen" only until the suspected migrant pays a sum of money to get them back, leaving one to wonder whether policy managing the nation's migrant population is in many cases less about preserving national security than advancing personal or financial interests.

Two Thursdays ago, at a time when Sai Murng would normally be driving home from a computer course at Chiang Mai's Migrant Learning Centre, he found himself vaulting over the school's back wall.

Though he is a registered worker and had his documents on hand, Sai Murng was scared when, right around the 8 p.m. dismissal time, four police trucks surrounded the school that offers nightly Thai, English and computer classes.

As Sai Murng fled, police approached the school, wanting to check students' identification and inspect the 70 or 80 motorbikes - Sai Murng's included - parked alongside the school. Meanwhile, plainclothes officers entered the school and began taking pictures and materials from the shelves. A few students, again to the scorn of officers, began to cry.

"The students were very, very nervous." said one of the teachers. "It was as if they were raiding a casino."

Calmer, Sai Murng returned to the school to find police still there but his motorbike - with the registration, insurance, and payment documentation inside it - already confiscated and on its way to the station.

He rode with the officers to the station, called the registered owner of the bike to join him, paid 1,000 baht for driving without a licence (bargained down from 1,500 because he did not have anything more), and had his bike returned.

He drove off with it and without a licence.

So, too, did 50 or so students at the Migrant Learning Centre that were able to provide police a motorbike registration booklet and evidence that the registered owner had given it to them (some of the individuals came to the school, while others spoke to the police on students' mobile phones).

By the end of the incident, police had hauled off about 15 bikes and one student, who was arrested, handcuffed and kept for one night at the station after he, following Sai Murng, fled over the back wall.

Many of the bikes confiscated at the school have since been recovered by their migrant owners, all from the same station, but according to widely varying procedure and wide-ranging sums of money. One individual paid 200 baht for not having bike registration; the majority of others paid 1,500 or 2,000 baht and were charged for driving without a licence (as in Sai Sai's case, the charge arose from an inspection of parked bikes - more confoundingly, this charge was levelled while others with motorbikes were dismissed to drive off without a licence). Some were given receipts.

The only standard in the process seemed to be that officers collected from the migrants what they could (in all cases where migrants paid less than 1,500, it was because they did not have that much with them.) In all cases, it was also a fair bit of money for workers who make around 160 baht per day.

It is also worth noting that the procedure differed from that used in Sai Sai's case, which differed from still other cases where bikes had been confiscated by other stations in early morning raids.

'Raids are illegal'

Despite the inconsistency in application of the law, one might perceive the police's protocol in these cases as generous - they could have rejected lesser payments and confiscated all 80 of the students' bikes, since all belonged to migrant workers who are prohibited from registering bikes and having driver's licences.

Human rights lawyer and chair of the Cross Cultural Foundation Somchai Homlaor thinks differently. He contends that confiscation of motorbikes, as well as police conduct during these raids, is illegal, and whether it be out of misunderstaning or malice, these cases are examples of the habitual exploitation and rights violations that Thailand's migrant workers face.

He says that it is very unfair the way a number of people profit from the situation. "I'm afraid it's a kind of corruption and very shameful trying to get money from these poor migrants."

He objects to past raids for a number of reasons. For example, at Sai Sai's camp "police did not have a search warrant from the court and raided the camp before sunrise. This is prohibited by law."

That migrant homes do not have an official house number; or that migrants must report to work shortly after sunrise (two justifications that have been given to these claims of unlawfulness) does not exempt officers from having to follow the letter of the law and respect personal property, he says.

What's more, the police have no power to confiscate property; if officers find that a driver is unlicensed, says Somchai, they can assess a fine, but taking the bike is against the law.

This is particularly true in cases like Sai Sai's and the Learning Centre, when"at the time of confiscation, no one was riding a motorbike. No one at that time was violating the law."

Sai Sai still speaks of feeling alternatively baffled and humiliated throughout the charade in which - without explanation of what was going on, where they were going or hint to put on proper dress (Sai Sai was still in the shorts he had thrown on when police broke into his bedroom) - the officers asked for motorbike keys, told the migrants to climb on and hauled them off to the police station.

In addition to finding fault with the appropriateness and trasparency of procedure, Somchai argues that, according to the Thai Constitution, there is no problem with migrant workers having motorbikes. He says bikes are considered "moveable property" and so, "anyone has the right to be an owner or to purchase them".

Meanwhile, even if migrant workers cannot register their bikes in their own name, he says that "according to the law, licences and registration are not documents of entitlement.

"Police have the duty to protect people and prevent crime, but not in a way that violates the rights of people. To what extent does a raid on a school or a migrant camp protect Thai national security?"

He sees such practices - singling out all migrant workers without strong reason for doing so - as discriminatory, if not corrupt police work.

"They must have some grounds, some indicator or complaint that this kind of bike was stolen or that these are migrants that make problems. They can't just go after all migrant workers."

Why not license migrants?

An officer with the Chiang Mai's Chang Phueak Police Station said that though he was not familiar with the details of the Learning Centre case, there was no special campaign targetting migrant workers that drive motorbikes.

He doesn't think it is a problem, other than for young migrants who, like young Thais, go joyriding at night and make a lot of noise.

On the other side of the issue, and in the wake of the increasing number of such incidents, the Cross Cultural Foundation has sent a letter to Police Region 5 to seek clarification and file a complaint with the National Human Rights Commission to investigate the practice of confiscating motorbikes, which the foundation feels is unfair and in violation of the rights of migrant workers.

Somchai believes that allowing migrants to obtain licences would ease police work and actually improve national security. He says migrant workers already have Thai-issued IDs, and allowing them to have a licence would help officers in their efforts to monitor crime and the migrant population. "It's best if they can live in Thailand like normal people."

In Chiang Mai, where a number of foreign tourists - many without appropriate licences, Asian driving sensibilities, or any particular business to do so - easily rent bikes and go zipping around its hilly roads, the restrictive policies on the province's migrant workers seem particularly at odds.

Sai Sai is apt to agree. He says he still feels sick and confused when he thinks back to being hauled down to the police station and told he has no rights of ownership. He was so incensed that, a week after the raid, he joined in an International Migrant Day demonstration to demand his right to a driver's licence.

He shakes his head, as if, months later, he is still trying to sort out the whole nightmare. "I don't understand how I was at fault. I work hard and try to save. I follow the law and just try to make a living." He gestured at the cardboard walls of his living room and said, "We have many burdens. Why do they want me to pay?"

He's no longer driving a motorbike. Though his employer retrieved it for him 6 days after the raid, Sai Sai returned it to the shop, saying he can no longer afford the installments, what with his daughter's schooling and the fines he's still paying from December.

(Editor's Note: The Chiang Mai governor did not want to comment on the issue until the new government articulates its policy on migrant workers.)

This is the third in a series on migrant workers in Thailand

[mcgriffith]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

[gpdjohn]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

Right on Mac..

Fair is where they have clowns and balloons, and carmel corn...

I'm from Arizona where the immigration issue is a BIG deal....

Seems the same here only you could change the word "Mexican" for "Burmese"

"Tis a shame...for all involved.

Now, I could get into the dealings of the Thai govt with the oppressive Burmese military juanta, but I won't. Same, same as the Chinese with the Tibetan problems...or is it the Tibetan with the Chinese problem ....

Life sucks...

Politics suck....

and sometimes somebody just needs a healthy ass kickin' to set it straight.

And I think Burma needs a good one....ass kickin' I mean...

[Mapguy]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

The news article is very well and carefully written. It is a very sad story. It is not simple to dismiss the story with a mai pen rai. Yes, as McG points out, this sort of thing goes on worldwide these days. And it is a lot nastier, unfortunately, in many, many places.

Also in a recent edition of the Bangkok Post is a story of a governmental guarantee to completing a multi-billion dollar loan to Myanmar. Thailand is between a rock and a hard place. Yes, there is an unwelcome immigration problem, not only from the West but also from the North and East. Dealing with it makes the American campaign to build an actual wall between the USA and Mexico ever more absurd. Dealing with uncontrolled immigration flows is a huge social and economic problem.

In defense of local policing, I hope that there comes a day when the local gendarme will someday be paid sufficient that he does not have to worry about paying next term's school fees for his children.

But, back to the main point, it is tragic for the Burmese, especially, but how indeed can Thailand be expected to readily absorb the suffering of Myanmar? Although I can not dismiss such an incident out of hand, I sigh and think mai pen rai --- and wish it weren't so.

[john b good]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

The news article is very well and carefully written. It is a very sad story. It is not simple to dismiss the story with a mai pen rai. Yes, as McG points out, this sort of thing goes on worldwide these days. And it is a lot nastier, unfortunately, in many, many places.

Also in a recent edition of the Bangkok Post is a story of a governmental guarantee to completing a multi-billion dollar loan to Myanmar. Thailand is between a rock and a hard place. Yes, there is an unwelcome immigration problem, not only from the West but also from the North and East. Dealing with it makes the American campaign to build an actual wall between the USA and Mexico ever more absurd. Dealing with uncontrolled immigration flows is a huge social and economic problem.

In defense of local policing, I hope that there comes a day when the local gendarme will someday be paid sufficient that he does not have to worry about paying next term's school fees for his children.

But, back to the main point, it is tragic for the Burmese, especially, but how indeed can Thailand be expected to readily absorb the suffering of Myanmar? Although I can not dismiss such an incident out of hand, I sigh and think mai pen rai --- and wish it weren't so.

On the subject of "will someday be paid sufficient " no one forced them to join up with these thugs in uniform. One can apply the view that all should be paid a wage that is sufficient to sustain an honest way of life, however no one should attempt to defend the antics of the Realm's "finest"

[Gonzo the Face]

probably more to the story that we don't know about.Not to minimize UG's statement about not having better things to do. We aren't in Kansas anymore and we all know that most (not all) police here are nothing more than armed bandits always looking for monetary gain,in any manner they can. I spent my military time as a Military policeman.There the motivation was more of a power-tripping thing. I now have a feeling that anyone who wants to be a policeman SHOULDN"T be allowed to. There are good cops everywhere though and I realize that. With my experience though I found them to be few and far between. Most of the good ones retired in Thailand

Exactly the same feeling re politicians, either here in Thailand, or for Pres of the USA

Do not vote for those who want the job too much

[Ajarn]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

Are you sure? I only know of calif, oregon and washington where anyone is allowed a driving licence. What States don't allow someone to register for a licence, illegal or not??

[mcgriffith]

Read the article today in the BKK Post.

The authorities are messing with the migrant workers, to 1) discourage further migration, and to 2) extract a bit of tea money.

Not fair at all....but then again who ever promised that life would be fair?

The same issue is debated furiously in the USA. Illegal immigrants are not allowed valid drivers licenses in most states, and so drive illegally in constant fear of being stopped and having their vehicle confiscated. (The article mentions a registered migrant worker in Thailand who had his vehicle confiscated in this raid).

It isn't just Thailand where this is happening....

Are you sure? I only know of calif, oregon and washington where anyone is allowed a driving licence. What States don't allow someone to register for a licence, illegal or not??

You've answered your own question.

See this recent article. Of the now 4 US states that don't have legal residence requirements to obtain a drivers license, that leaves 46 states that do....

I personally disagree with this policy (of the non-issuing states) as do some of my friends who are in law enforcement.

I think anyone who passes a driving test, is conversant with the relevant laws, and can read street signs should be issued a license and be allowed to drive.

The complexity of this issue is that in the US, one's state drivers license is a sort of de facto national ID card. Unless you cross international borders, there is no need for a passport. The drivers license is pretty much the only photo ID card used to establish your residency....and if one is an illegal alien, a lot of people feel that they should not be issued this ID.

[Loaded]

Depite our petty complaints, we are very fortunate to have been born into our lives.

[Ulysses G.]

Depite our petty complaints, we are very fortunate to have been born into our lives.

That is for sure (although I could have used a bit more nooky in my younger days)!

[Gonzo the Face]

Again and again, the KEY word is Illegal ....

Breaking the law, to gain benefits cannot be condoned to any extent.

Those of us here in CM, who are here as legal , working expats know the extent we have to go thru to stay. Yes its a hassel and troublesome but we live by the law of the land. We want the goodness and satisfaction [to ourselves] we get from living here, we live by the Thai laws.

You violate the law and you will deported, and I believe at your own or your friends or family expense.

I see no problem with the program here. In the US catch the illegals, put them in a secured camp and on a publics work program til they build up enough funds to get them a one way ticket home.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Gonzo the Face

[rethaired]

Again and again, the KEY word is Illegal ....

Breaking the law, to gain benefits cannot be condoned to any extent.

Those of us here in CM, who are here as legal , working expats know the extent we have to go thru to stay. Yes its a hassel and troublesome but we live by the law of the land. We want the goodness and satisfaction [to ourselves] we get from living here, we live by the Thai laws.

You violate the law and you will deported, and I believe at your own or your friends or family expense.

I see no problem with the program here. In the US catch the illegals, put them in a secured camp and on a publics work program til they build up enough funds to get them a one way ticket home.

Laws are arbitrary and not intrinsically good!

In many countries (incl. the US and Thailand) illegal migrants are USED for cheap labour. I wonder ... does the Thai or the US employer using illegal migrants (who is breaking the law) ... does s/he get in jail? I doubt it! The Burmese used are slaves and it makes me sick to the stomach to live in one of those buildings that were built by them for nothing and benefitting Thai employers, foreigners, and Thai society. Considering the living conditions in Burma, this is real shame!

I have seen them, risking their lives! I have seen them arrested! This Burmese men are extremely courageous!

Really sad!

[gpdjohn]

Again and again, the KEY word is Illegal ....

Breaking the law, to gain benefits cannot be condoned to any extent.

Those of us here in CM, who are here as legal , working expats know the extent we have to go thru to stay. Yes its a hassel and troublesome but we live by the law of the land. We want the goodness and satisfaction [to ourselves] we get from living here, we live by the Thai laws.

You violate the law and you will deported, and I believe at your own or your friends or family expense.

I see no problem with the program here. In the US catch the illegals, put them in a secured camp and on a publics work program til they build up enough funds to get them a one way ticket home.

Laws are arbitrary and not intrinsically good!

In many countries (incl. the US and Thailand) illegal migrants are USED for cheap labour. I wonder ... does the Thai or the US employer using illegal migrants (who is breaking the law) ... does s/he get in jail? I doubt it! The Burmese used are slaves and it makes me sick to the stomach to live in one of those buildings that were built by them for nothing and benefitting Thai employers, foreigners, and Thai society. Considering the living conditions in Burma, this is real shame!

I have seen them, risking their lives! I have seen them arrested! This Burmese men are extremely courageous!

Really sad!

In southern Arizona, US Border Patrol has arrianged a deal with the farmers that they would not raid or detain illegal migrant workers until after the harvest season so that the crops could make it to market, thereby not hurting the farmers business.

Current AZ law specifies that any business owner caught employing illegal workers will be prosecuted, but federal law supersedes any state laws. Federal law states this also, the prosecution of any who hire illegal workers..

In a way both the immigrant worker and the farmer kinda make out.

But it seems when money to be made is involved, heads are turned.

[Gonzo the Face]

I don't know about you but i'm sick of foreigners coming to this country and taking advantage of the system, stealing stuff and generally causing problems. If the Burmese chaps want to lear Englasih they should do what we all had to do and do it in a tax paying enviroment. Those Burmese have it too easy if you ask me.

With all due respect to you matey, I'm not sure I can agree with you.

I do hope and suspect that not only are you a newbie to this forum, but to the area as well.

I would suggest that you meet some of the Burmese that are in this country, befriend them and listen [once they get to know you] to some of the true horror stories from back home.

Listen to the stories about they themselves or their male family members being used as forced labor by the state or the army. Many never to be seen again. Talk to more and maybe you will hear stories similar to the entire village being rousted by the army in the early hours of the morning, the entire group being taken to an open area in the village and made to watch as a male village member is beaten, tortured, then shot, only to wound, then being buried alive, in full view of the remainder of the village. Probably makes waterboarding look like a baptism.

Get to know some of the expat element in and out of Northern Thailand that goes in and extracts what remains of villagers after the raping, beating, mulitating of these people who have had the bad fortune to earn the wrath of the Burmese Military. See some of the photos taken by these rescue groups, and then you say "These Burmese have it too easy".

No, I am afraid I cannot agree with you, because I have seen the photos, and spoken first hand with some of those who go to rescue. Do yourself a favor, find some of these people, both those who have gone in and those who have come out. Befriend them, talk to them as not talking down to them, but as another human being. Then revisit your above post, I do hope and pray that your opinion does become enlightened and perhaps even change

Only meant as constructive mate. We all have to live on the planet, and somehow live together.

[adjan jb]

I don't know about you but i'm sick of foreigners coming to this country and taking advantage of the system, stealing stuff and generally causing problems. If the Burmese chaps want to lear Englasih they should do what we all had to do and do it in a tax paying enviroment. Those Burmese have it too easy if you ask me.

[Gonzo the Face]

The Burma Army Version of a Hill Tribe Trek

not 3 days and 2 nites either, but

all days and all nights you have left

[Paagai]

I don't know about you but i'm sick of foreigners coming to this country and taking advantage of the system, stealing stuff and generally causing problems. If the Burmese chaps want to lear Englasih they should do what we all had to do and do it in a tax paying enviroment. Those Burmese have it too easy if you ask me.

With all due respect to you matey, I'm not sure I can agree with you.

I do hope and suspect that not only are you a newbie to this forum, but to the area as well.

I would suggest that you meet some of the Burmese that are in this country, befriend them and listen [once they get to know you] to some of the true horror stories from back home.

Listen to the stories about they themselves or their male family members being used as forced labor by the state or the army. Many never to be seen again. Talk to more and maybe you will hear stories similar to the entire village being rousted by the army in the early hours of the morning, the entire group being taken to an open area in the village and made to watch as a male village member is beaten, tortured, then shot, only to wound, then being buried alive, in full view of the remainder of the village. Probably makes waterboarding look like a baptism.

Get to know some of the expat element in and out of Northern Thailand that goes in and extracts what remains of villagers after the raping, beating, mulitating of these people who have had the bad fortune to earn the wrath of the Burmese Military. See some of the photos taken by these rescue groups, and then you say "These Burmese have it too easy".

No, I am afraid I cannot agree with you, because I have seen the photos, and spoken first hand with some of those who go to rescue. Do yourself a favor, find some of these people, both those who have gone in and those who have come out. Befriend them, talk to them as not talking down to them, but as another human being. Then revisit your above post, I do hope and pray that your opinion does become enlightened and perhaps even change

Only meant as constructive mate. We all have to live on the planet, and somehow live together.

Gonzo, 100% Spot on Post.

I have several friends from the Shan State, including some who are AWOL from the SSA, they are separated from their families and living on their wits having to some how make a living whilst running the gauntlet of the Thai police, unscropulous employers etc, etc. The fact is, they CANNOT go home, often for fear of death! And from what I've seen, if they do make any money it goes straight back to the family, (after the unscrupulous transfer agent gets their cut!). And the stories of jungle warfare, fighting with the Wa etc, can be tear jerking..........

Everyone of them would rather be back in Burma with their family if the poplitical situation allowed them to stay without fear, and to make enough money to live. If the Thai's aren't happy with so many Burmese migrants, the solution is simple - exert the necessary pressures to bring about regieme change in Burma. Unfortunately there are way too many self interests in Thailand that exploit both the cheap labour that comes here and benefit from the burmese regieme for that to happen any time soon.

It amazes me how racist Thai's can become when talking about Burmese people, especially when some of these Thai's are still in the feudal paddy fields themselves! Its an argument I've had several times with Thai friends, old prejuidces die hard I guess.

[Ulysses G.]

It amazes me how racist Thai's can become when talking about Burmese people, especially when some of these Thai's are still in the feudal paddy fields themselves! Its an argument I've had several times with Thai friends, old prejuidces die hard I guess.

True, but they have fought many wars against each other. It is somewhat natural that there deep hatred and distrust.

[Ajarn]

It amazes me how racist Thai's can become when talking about Burmese people, especially when some of these Thai's are still in the feudal paddy fields themselves! Its an argument I've had several times with Thai friends, old prejuidces die hard I guess

If you grew up here you might understand. Surrounded by 'enemies' all your life. Similar to what Israelis go through, I suspect. And the govenment and parents and teachers all express these feelings...

[Gonzo the Face]

It amazes me how racist Thai's can become when talking about Burmese people, especially when some of these Thai's are still in the feudal paddy fields themselves! Its an argument I've had several times with Thai friends, old prejuidces die hard I guess

If you grew up here you might understand. Surrounded by 'enemies' all your life. Similar to what Israelis go through, I suspect. And the govenment and parents and teachers all express these feelings...

Clarify please. Are you comparing the Thai people of today with with that of the Israeli ???

[Ulysses G.]

Thais pretty much feel that the Burmese, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Laos are enemies of many generations that are all around them. Ajarn mentioned that the Israelis probably feel much the same. It doesn't mean that they share anything else.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Ulysses G.

[Paagai]

It amazes me how racist Thai's can become when talking about Burmese people, especially when some of these Thai's are still in the feudal paddy fields themselves! Its an argument I've had several times with Thai friends, old prejuidces die hard I guess

If you grew up here you might understand. Surrounded by 'enemies' all your life. Similar to what Israelis go through, I suspect. And the govenment and parents and teachers all express these feelings...

I agree the xenophobic indoctrination that persissts in Thai schools is unbelievable. The Thai education system seems hel_l bent on teaching people what to think, rather than how to think objectively. Along with many things in this dysfunctional country, it suits the ruling classes for it to remain like that, which means it will! If you have the money or connections to make problems go away, this is a country where there are no laws and you can do exactly whatever you like.

Just watch the joggers in Lumphini park freeze like stone statues at 6 p.m. Where else in the world does that still happen?

Of course, one big difference with Thailand is that, unlike the surrounding "enemies", Thailand never had the shit kicked out of it by an occupying colonial power! I think that has a lot to do with the Thai psyche; particularly the arrogance!

Edited April 6, 2008 by Reimar
Last paragraph deleted on wish of poster

[Ulysses G.]

You are just looking for any excuse to spread your silly political beliefs on a forum where they are not wanted and they don't belong.

As far as "made up" borders and countries go, just look around Asia if you want something to whinge about. At least that is a topic that belongs here and is permitted by forum rules.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Ulysses G.