What Legal Document Proves Foreign House Ownership?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Sure am glad I bought a condo. Getting the Chanode was dead easy. This lease and then building seems like a nightmare. Ask 10 people get 11 answers.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Khun Jean, I respect you. But please, show me ONE DECISION where a usufruct was voided by a wife. I just need one. One decision. Or a Thai lawyer's name with his phone number, with experience, that we could have a talk too, that will clearly tell me HOW to void a registered contract at the land department when all parties have signed it with full understanding. I've been trying to find one decision like this without success. I am not saying there are not. But I doubt there are...

What a pity that you are writing things without any proven facts. And your posts are insinuating many things... So, tell us about you Khun Jean? Are you in the business? Why are you so interested by real estate? I know who is under SFS. Are you interested? Because you seem to like them a lot...send me an email.

BL4U, your last posts are a disgrace. I also asked many times WHO ARE YOU and never got an answer. This time, if I answer you, you will answer me? Who are you? What are your qualifications? You know my email and could have written to me easily. And I would have tried to answer you. I never received an email from you and I don't read all messages here. Sorry. I also don't read all replies on one thread. I work enough...and come here sometimes. My average is 1 post per 3 days!

Sometimes, I can't answer...you know the law. If it is the case, I tell our clients. Emailing is free.

This is exactly what I was saying in my last post. The question was what documents are proving ownership of a house? I answered clearly. Many replies followed, not always clear and accurate. I replied AGAIN that I was right, and then, again, I am attacked for other reasons!! Unbelievable. And all these people are objective, not into the business, have qualifications, etc. What a wonderful world!

In fact, there is an act passed in 2534 about the "Ta bien ban" any good Thai lawyer could have refute my arguments by using that act. And the only other answer will have been (there is no official document proving the ownership). But the answers here were all mixed and confused.

======================

back to the questions:

BL4U, You really don't understand what is a usufruct (compare to a lease) and I will answer you in front of all these people to just shut your mouth. Obviously, you are into the business too. No people would care so much about these technicalities if they were not into the business. So, you want us (our law firm and not any other one) to give you all answers and everything, under a nickname, on a public forum. Right? You can't write to other law firms? Or maybe they don't answer? So, I will answer you CLEARLY.

What is under these lines is NOT translated, to my knowledge, in English anywhere. I don't think it's under ANY website of ANY law firm. I could keep this information for us....

Read the third paragraph of this document. It's in Thai. It is attached to this message. It says that the owner waives all its rights to the usufructuary. All his rights...(except the abusus - of course, it's the basic). This is a basic English translation...but in Thai, it's clear. And it's the OFFICIAL document from the land department. And we have a clear clause in our usufruct agreement that will take away any doubts.

This attachement is page 464 of the Manual of the land department of Thailand. This manual is not on sale. Yes, we have a copy. And you got your answer. Sorry if no other lawyers (how many in Thailand, thousands???) were not able to answer you. The lessor will be the usufructuary. For your next questions, send me an email and you will get your answers.

BL4U, if you are a Thai lawyer, or a Thai person knowing the subject, you would have found this in 10 minutes on the land department's website. Under "usufruct in Thai", link finishing by /news1.htm. They have some parts of this manual. Post your name, qualifications, and email here, on this forum. I did it. And I will send you this free documentation, Only 4U, BL4U. Big Learning 4U, free. Sorry to be rude but you attacked our law firm. You didn't attack anyone else. And all that, under a nickname...

Sorry to all readers finding this very boring.

I should have just sent the attachment and "Here is your answer".

[Buckwheat]

Several flaming posts have been removed.

Please stick to the subject at hand and refrain from personal attacks.

Further instances will warrant holidays.

[Burgernev]

I understand a Tabien Bahn is proof of residence at the address, not ownership, but I could be wrong. Here's why I think this:

1) The documentation to obtain a Yellow Book does not include documents relating to you buying, building, acquiring the building.

2) My wife has a Blue Tabien Bahn all by herself on our house, my company owns it ....... I hope

3) My wife has small house in Buli-lam and took her name off Tabien Bahn and put her name inthe Hua Hin house, her brother lives in her house in village now and has put his name in the Tabien Bahn, he doesn't own it though.

4) A foreigner can get a Yellow Book at his wife's house, she owns it though.

What I do know for sure as I see it all the time is that when a foreigner buys a house (not condo) you go to the land office and register lease or transfer land title paper. Ie: land (not house) transfer and pay taxes etc.

You also should declare the house/building transfer and pay taxes on that, although not everyone does, tut tut. When you do this the new house owner, who is not neccessarily the land owner, gets a white certificate with their name on, in Thai with an official land office stamp. This certificate declares you are the owner of the house/building.

What happens if you then sell the house to a.n.other without going to land office and paying tax, getting new white certificate ........ haven't the foggiest.

But my advice to anyone buying a house is to register the transfer at the land office, then you have a certificate showing ownership. Sellers don't want to do this as they don't want to pay the tax, if so pay it yourself it's relatively low.

Going back to the OP asking what is the document for foreigners and what is for Thais, what I've mentioned does not discriminate, its for both.

Burgernev

Edited June 17, 2008 by Burgernev

[Maestro]

I have deleted all off-topic posts made after another moderator's plea to posters in this thread to remain on topic.

The OP asked what the legal documents are to prove foreign house ownership.

This topic is not about usufruct, superficies, lease, or other things. Is it really so difficult to stay on topic?

--

Maestro

[BL4u]

I have deleted all off-topic posts made after another moderator's plea to posters in this thread to remain on topic.

The OP asked what the legal documents are to prove foreign house ownership.

This topic is not about usufruct, superficies, lease, or other things. Is it really so difficult to stay on topic?

--

Maestro

Maestro, this post is about superfices because this is the only right you can register at the competent authority to own a building upon someone else's land. Opposite to what some say a tabian baan is handy but NOT a proof of ownership - eg 1st year law students would understand this.

Ownership of a building is limited to the rights you have towards the land, so if someone on this forum says a usufruct can be for life + 30 years my response to this it is relevant to proof of ownership. Why remove my post/ response? Readers make decisions on the term of ownership they think the have...

[gdhm]

EXTRACT ....I understand a Tabien Bahn is proof of residence at the address, not ownership, but I could be wrong. Here's why I think this:...

Burgernev

I agree with you in its simplest form. I had a Yellow Tabien Baan when my wife owned the Title to her Aunt's house and I most certainly was not the House owner, nor did I have any rights but I was entitled as a foreign spouse of a Land Owner possessing Title deeds in her name.

However having said that.

When I very recently registered for a NEW Yellow Tabien Baan as owner to a new HOUSE (not land as Foreigners cannot own). The Tabien Baan of my wife and me reflected in writing the fact very clearly in our Tabien Baans I am HOUSE OWNER and my Wife is only the LAND OWNER.

If this is the normal procedure throughout Thailand where the house owner is not the land owner, then maybe those doubting and those supporting the view, whether Tabien Baans are proof of house ownership are actually agreeing -SUBJECT to these important fact being included in the Tabien Baan

I feel the original enquirer armed with a correctly worded Tabien Baan has adequate and proper proof.

(but then again I do not consider Thailand great when it comes to consistency on legal or formal matters and documents).

Regards

Dave

[gdhm]

I have deleted all off-topic posts made after another moderator's plea to posters in this thread to remain on topic.

The OP asked what the legal documents are to prove foreign house ownership.

This topic is not about usufruct, superficies, lease, or other things. Is it really so difficult to stay on topic?

--

Maestro

I respect your decision Maestro.

May I offer a suggestion please. Apart from any "flaming" would it not be preferable to move suitable Usufruct posts to a new Usufruct thread.

I think most would agree this is a very important subject for many members and having read the email posted comments in full (now deleted) there is much important content. Whether the views and beliefs of the contributors conflict or not the content still allows readers to see, think, decide or find further clarification either here or elsewhere. "To be forewarned is to be forearmed"

I did try to PM this to you Maestro to avoid being off subject Maestro but it was not permitted saying I do not have the authority to do to so.

VERY HAPPY for this comment to be deleted upon your reading

Kind Regards

Dave

[ThaiLawOnline]

Thanks Maestro.

BL4U: I know what are superficies. But you did not answer about your qualifications. You did not email me.

We still don't know where you work. You did not read my attachment in Thai.

We also learn superficies in first year of CIVIL LAW (maybe second year-can't remember) where I got my degree. Articles 1110 and following of the Quebec Civil Code and articles 1410 and following of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. So, if you studied that somewhere, tell us about it. Where do you work, who are you? Send me an email, and we will discuss together.

[Maestro]

...May I offer a suggestion please. Apart from any "flaming" would it not be preferable to move suitable Usufruct posts to a new Usufruct thread. ...

There have been many topics on usufruct and any member is free to start a new one.

The most recent topics on the subject seem to be these:

Usufruct, another article

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=188266

Everything You Wanted To Know About Usufruct Agreements In Thailand, History, how does it work, limitations, myths and facts.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=195690

The author of one of these topics has stated his qualifications, the other has not. Generally, for anything you read on ThaiVisa the following excerpt from the forum rules applies:

... everything on the site is provided to you "as is" without warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties or merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose...

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

...When I very recently registered for a NEW Yellow Tabien Baan as owner to a new HOUSE (not land as Foreigners cannot own). The Tabien Baan of my wife and me reflected in writing the fact very clearly in our Tabien Baans I am HOUSE OWNER and my Wife is only the LAND OWNER...

I am sure the original poster, jflundy, is glad to see your post. It is the first post in this thread, I believe, from a foreign house owner giving details of the document he has to prove ownership of his house.

--

Maestro

[gdhm]

...May I offer a suggestion please. Apart from any "flaming" would it not be preferable to move suitable Usufruct posts to a new Usufruct thread. ...

There have been many topics on usufruct and any member is free to start a new one.

The most recent topics on the subject seem to be these:

Usufruct, another article

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=188266

Everything You Wanted To Know About Usufruct Agreements In Thailand, History, how does it work, limitations, myths and facts.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=195690

The author of one of these topics has stated his qualifications, the other has not. Generally, for anything you read on ThaiVisa the following excerpt from the forum rules applies:

... everything on the site is provided to you "as is" without warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties or merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose...

--

Maestro

Thanks Maestro

Sorry but the 2nd link

Everything You Wanted To Know About Usufruct Agreements In Thailand, History, how does it work, limitations, myths and facts.

refers to the current PAD demos etc.

I think you intended

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=171307

Regards Dave

Edited June 21, 2008 by gdhm

[JimmyGreaves]

Well, thanks for all the lovely replies.

As IssanLawyers originally stated it's the Tabien Bahn and also a few others like gdhm. As Burger and others stated how can it be the tabian bahn when someone else owned the property but someone else still had Tabian Bahn in their name.

Like finding a needle in a haystack!

Is it the case that the tabian bahn. whether blue or yellow actually has two types of entry.

1. A mandatory entry saying who the owner of the house is. A company name or an individuals name

2. Other entries of type residents - Can have many individuals named.

[ThaiLawOnline]

I will answer you privately and you will completely understand.

[chiang mai]

Maybe nearly there.

1. The building permit needs to be in my name

2. Proof that I purchased the materials (Documents From the bank + building material receipts) - Not 100% Sure about this.

3. Chanote needs to have my name on the back (Can possibly have multiple names)

The above will prove that I legally own the house!

This will allow me to get a Yellow Tabian bahn that gives me proof of where I live in Thailand.

Do I just sign something that will then give my partner (thai) and our daughter rights to have a blue tabian bahn book?

Many Thanks

Make it simply. This is how i did it in Phuket and i just sold the house and land, (after living there for over 6 years) with no problems

1. When u build the house your name is on the building permit and you sign all papers with your contractor. Usually payments

are made as such;

25% on signing contract to build the house

25% more after the basic structure is complete

25% more after the structure is closed in and interior work begins

15% when u do a final walk thru

10% after 6 months to cover in case they need to fix something.

All payments should come from YOU.

This shows U built and own the house.

2. THE owner of the LAND can apply for the BLUE tambien baan at any time, then after the house is 75% complete she can apply for electric

and a house number

3. First who owns the land? If it is your wife her name and your daughter will go on the taanbien baan. They don't need permission from you.

4. arrange a min 30 year lease between your wife and you, ( 30+30+30 years leases mean nothing as the orginal signer of the first 30 year lease needs to be alive to verify the second 30 year lease so this really is only good if a company owns the land, all legal papers have to have a copy of the signers id card and dated LESS than 3 months ago unless company owns the land) If she comes back with, "what don't u trust me?" tell her its for your daughters and your protection in case something happens to her.

You then go to the land office and have the lease registered and the lease with your name will be on back on the nor sor sam or Chanote paper

5. You can then have your name listed on the back page of the BLUE taambien baan showing u reside there. You do not need the yellow book if u do this.

6. In Phuket i never paid any yearly tax nor did I owe any when i sold the house and land

As i said this i what i did here in Phuket and had zero trouble or problems. When i sold the house and land we had to cancel the lease and then once that was done she could sell the house and transfer the land paper after paying tax of 4.5%. This was all done at the same time and took less than 1 hour

It seems so many people here make it more troble than it actually is. :-)

Yours seems like a sensible and logical way to proceed, I wonder how this arrangement would work in the case of a foreigner buying a new house and land where the house is already constructed? It seems to me that the same principles should apply, the land is owned by the Thai wife/girlfriend whilst the house is owned by the foreigner and all payments for both can be easily traced back to the foreigner. The lease is lodged with the Land Office and duly recorded, perhaps the foreigner also obtains am undated Power of Attorney from the Thai partner also. This all seems very simple but I can't immediately see where the arrangement falls down and why it should not prove to be a reasonably safe way for a foreigner to buy land and a house in which to live. I'll be grateful for any feedback on my example, especially since I am getting very close to wanting to buy and am actively looking for a suitable approach. BTW, I live in Phuket also.

[scyriacus]

sorry to say, but all that legal stuff is totally useless in 95% of thailand. it's only working in a well functioning market, maybe a few extremely expensive places in bangkok, phuket, samui, pattaya. the majority of 'poor' (in brains) farangs i know build houses on foreign land, easily provided by the girlfriends family, maybe somewhere in the isaan deserts or in some small village. it's oh so very tempting, land for free and a house for less than a garage in europe. but no lawyer can help you, when your relationship goes down the drain. you simply cannot live isolated in a remote village and you can forget the idea of selling anything to anyone. the lawyers must see that differently, of course, they only earn money from false promises to protect your property, but without any guaranty. my advice: save the money for useless papers, contracts, lawyers and so on and live the first years in a rented place, where you can move from one day to the other. and only when your pretty sure, that you can survive with a 100% loss of your great love, relation and property - only that amount invest and write it off immediatelly. the odds are simply not on the farangs side (although i admit a few exceptions). if you want to take money from an atm which is not working, how many of us would sue the bank and wait until the supreme court finally denies any responsibility of the bank. everyone should and would look for the next working atm. so far so good, but why on earth should a thai girl think different, when her walking atm has a malfunction? and that's 100% legal, without any paper, just to stay on topic.........

[chiang mai]

sorry to say, but all that legal stuff is totally useless in 95% of thailand. it's only working in a well functioning market, maybe a few extremely expensive places in bangkok, phuket, samui, pattaya. the majority of 'poor' (in brains) farangs i know build houses on foreign land, easily provided by the girlfriends family, maybe somewhere in the isaan deserts or in some small village. it's oh so very tempting, land for free and a house for less than a garage in europe. but no lawyer can help you, when your relationship goes down the drain. you simply cannot live isolated in a remote village and you can forget the idea of selling anything to anyone. the lawyers must see that differently, of course, they only earn money from false promises to protect your property, but without any guaranty. my advice: save the money for useless papers, contracts, lawyers and so on and live the first years in a rented place, where you can move from one day to the other. and only when your pretty sure, that you can survive with a 100% loss of your great love, relation and property - only that amount invest and write it off immediatelly. the odds are simply not on the farangs side (although i admit a few exceptions). if you want to take money from an atm which is not working, how many of us would sue the bank and wait until the supreme court finally denies any responsibility of the bank. everyone should and would look for the next working atm. so far so good, but why on earth should a thai girl think different, when her walking atm has a malfunction? and that's 100% legal, without any paper, just to stay on topic.........

I agree with your sentiments but not with your percentage and suggest that purchasing arrangements for farangs with Thai wives/girlfriends probably works a lot better and more successfully than you might think.

[phraxos5]

This is a very good example why I don't post a lot on forums.

Do you think a forum is a good place to get legal advice... Answer is No.

We sponsor Thaivisa because people get to know our company. It's called marketing and that is NOT illegal.

That doesn't mean we are liars, bias, or anything else?

Was the initial writer been confused by me or by all the other posters?

And who does he believe?

Who do you believe?

There are people here using nicknames only to "hit" on competitors. (like other law firms)

And I am getting tired of it so I don't post often. I did an article on usufruct that was well received.

I believe it's because there was nothing on usufruct (more or less) before...

I tried to write one on wills, and got #*#?. I am now working to write one on divorce, trying to get the best decisions from the Thai supreme court, arguments, the law, etc in English but I am afraid to post it here....

People will not say THANKS, that's helpful. They will try to find the problems, ask more questions, etc.

Some people hate "lawyers" and I understant that. I don't like lawyers too and would love to see a world without them.

But it is my job. I studied law to help people and for justice. I was naive. I must still be naive. 39 years-old, married to a Thai wife, living in Isaan and trying to help our company who has 5 employees. If I wanted a bigger salary, I wouldn't stay here... No, we are not a big law firm. 5 employees full time + me. But we are doing OK. And in Isaan, it's not easy.

Justice doesn't exist and everyone knows the law more than you.

This law is never the same, according to the location (jurisdiction on territory), the time (jurisdiction on time, prescription, retroactivity, law modifications in time), people (jurisdicton on the age, incompentency of people,) etc.

And no, I did NOT study Thai law. Just 4 years of civil Law (and common law), the same (civil law) that Thailand copied from French Law (I am from Montreal, Canada and we have a civil code copied on French law for private law...while public law comes from Common law). Do I know usufructs? Yes, for 15 years. Did I study immovable and movable property? Yes. I also know about emphyteutic (not sure of the spelling in English - Emphytheose in French) leases and other stuff that I didn't see in Thailand. That is not the point. Everyone can open a law firm in Thailand. But not everyone is qualified. Some will say that I am not qualified because I am not a Thai lawyer. All foreigners are not Thai lawyers. And all Thai lawyers are not necesserely qualified...

I am teaching some thai lawyers about THEIR law. Education is not the same in western coutries.

At the same time, I have problems to get English information about Thai law cases, Thai laws, etc.

I live in Korat. Not Pattaya, Bangkok or Phuket.

Thaivisa is a large pool of knowledge and it could help so many people.

At the same time, you can find so much unaccurate information on internet. Be careful.

Posters might act in good faith....but the law is the law. and when people don't know it, you got all kinds of answers.

The initial question was "What is the legal document that proves a foreigner/Thai owns a house/building?"

My answer was TA BIEN BAN. I stick with it. But this is not an easy question to answer.

I work with 4 different Thai lawyers, (2 fulltime, 2 part time) and it's unbelievable, they all agree with my answer about this thread! But I might be wrong... who knows...

The question was NOT how TO GET THE OWNERSHIP. It was about DOCUMENTS.

If it was HOW TO GET IT, even then, you would have not even 50% of the answer with all these posts.

Have you read book 4 of the Commercial and Thai civil Code? It's on our website. In English. Have a look.

Go in the info section, under property. I can't post a link here.

Try to understand section 1308 and following... It could be VERY complicated.

If you want to know about usufruct or superficies, it's there too.

In Quebec, it's article 1110 of our Civil Code. It Thailand, it's under 1410 and following...

Thailand did not invented usufruct, superficies, leases, etc.

Without going into details, superficies agreements die in Thailand with the life of the owner (section 1412), that's why I prefer usufruct in most cases.

Right of habitation is just for the house, a usufruct can be for the house and land. That's also better to my opinion.

Some of the answers says that only the Chanotte can prove who is the owner... This is actually the reality if the land is attached to the house. But there are also other title deeds like Nor Sor Sam that can say WHO owns the land.

So, that answer is not fully correct. After that, you must distinguish movable and immovable property.

It's a little crazy in Thailand that you can separate the house and the land... But this is Thailand and their law.

My theory is that some lawyers and real estate agents tried to make it look better for foreigners to buy...and make it really complicated. I also believe that it's crazy to separate the land and the house. But you can do it here...

If you have a small house and land and want some legal protection, avoid making all these problems, companies, ta bien ban, and the usufruct will cover all, until you die. It doesn't cover your heirs.

I am not saying that it's perfect... Sometimes, a lease will be better.

Some theories like "undue enrichment" (section 406 and following) and the part about ownership in book 4 (section 1308 and following) could be used by the owner of the "house" in case of problems. That's true. What is the value of the property you want to buy or build? someone asked the person who posted the question? And they give you legal advice?

Read carefully these comments:

1) Keep the bills of the house, they will show that you are the owner! (that's completely against what Quicklsilva said on title deeds - and I like Quicksilva. From his posts, I believe he works in real estate and is a genuine guy wanting to help people). Now, tell that (keep the bills) to some of my clients who paid the full house and are in court for divorce or getting back some money. They have all the bills!!!!!!!! If it was so easy, all foreigners would get back their money because most Thai ladies they married don't pay a penny for the house. In reality, many foreigners lose money. But keeping records of what you paid will help.....IN CASE OF PROBLEMS. That doesn't prove ownership (because the house can be attached to the land, immovable property and foreigners can't own the land - in general) Have you ever read the confirmation letter asked at the land department? It's also on our website...info - real estate and property. Not only married couple sign it.... sometimes, they asked it for unmarried couple to register a usufruct! Welcome to Thailand, the law is the law and all land departments are diffrerent!

2) Put the building permit on your name: that will show that you are the owner. (now imagine that I build a house with a building permit on my name, I sell it (with the land that would be on my wife's name) to Mr. X... Mr X sells to Mr. Y...Do you think because the building permit is on my name that I own the structure on the land after selling it? It's a BUILDING PERMIT...not an ownership document.

And now I will be straight forward with BL4U. If you can't understand that a usufruct is stronger in law in than a lease, you should keep studying. And go abroad because Thai lawyers don't really study Usufructs in Thailand (from what 8 Thai lawyers told me - you want their names, write to me and I will tell you). I already wrote many reasons why a usufruct is stronger. A usufruct is not the perfect solution and there are none in Thailand. A good lawyer should ask questions to the clients, show options, problems, etc. Tomorrow, I will know about the new regulations about Thai companies starting July first. That will be great.

Did someone asked if the guy (jflundy) had a prenuptial agreement?

Did someone explain that EVEN if he is the FULL owner of a house built after being married he will only get 50% of the ownership because it will be under SIN SOMROS (common property when people are married in Thailand). He is using the word GF so I presume that he is not married...

Did someone asked him where he wanted to purchase the land/house and the value? What about his age, his heirs, what does he want to do with the land? In Kalasin, it's difficult to register a usufruct...

There is a new thread about a gay couple in Chiangmai. They got a usufruct one year ago I heard so many comments about you need to be married, bla bla bla, it can be voided... but never a decision. Never a clear text. I did one usufruct for a gay couple and had some problems. Glad to see that these guys were able to do it...

I have to thank GDHM (Dave) who posted how he did his work. It's clear and these are FACTS. Did he say that the ta bian ban of his wife mentionned who is the owner of the house? It's nice to see a happy clients helping you... Thanks Dave.

I work 70 hours per week and don't have time to answer all threads, posts, messages on forums. I would love to help more. I had a partner in KK who started 2 months ago and already left. Isaan was too difficult for him! He used to work in Bangkok for a law firm (Pensit) and many years in Scotland for another one.

These messages and answers make me think: Should I continue to answer messages here or somewhere else? I also want to have a family life and enjoy Thailand.

I won't answer the next messages on this thread. My answer was clear. And I have to write a LONG MESSAGE to explain it. You want more information, details, explanation, advice, just write me an email. I will be glad to help as many people as I can. If I can't help, I will normally tell you. Thailand is big. You can also use any other law firm in your area. Also ask your embassy...or check the OFFICIAL websites on Thailand

land department : w w w . do l. go . th

DBD w w w . d b d . go. th

MFA w w w . m f a . go . th

I hope these links will not be deleted...put all letters together. Internet is a wonderful tool. Use it carefully.

[phraxos5]

There is something you can do. She can buy the land. Then you can be listed on the chanote as Kohn Suan. This is an ancient law that provides for people to be able to live on and work the land with some security that they wont be thrown off the land. And foreigners can be listed on the chanote. Then you have a seperate contract with her stating the time which you will inhabit the land as kohn suan. Along with the building permit, reciepts, and ANYTHING else you CAN have in your name, this should provide enough security to get a house built and live in it for your lifetime. Technicalities about this option should be verified with a serious lawyer with proper credentials.

good luck

[scyriacus]

I agree with your sentiments but not with your percentage and suggest that purchasing arrangements for farangs with Thai wives/girlfriends probably works a lot better and more successfully than you might think.

so what percentage would you suggest (you forgot to mention it)? purchasing arrangements (as you called it) last 2 hours at the bar, 2 days at the hotel, 2 weeks in your holidays, 2 month if you disagree, and 2 years if you agree. this is not what i might think, this is what i see since nearly 10 years in thailand (exceptions negliglible <5%). if you believe, those happy 2 years are a success, than you are an incorrigible optimist.......and you still did not respond to the question: what if your big love goes down the drain? impossible?? how much would you invest for just 2 years? gimme a number please (no objection if <100,000 baht).......................and i'm not talking love, but return on investment! (if there's no love w/o investment, somethings wrong!)

Edited July 13, 2008 by scyriacus

[chiang mai]

I agree with your sentiments but not with your percentage and suggest that purchasing arrangements for farangs with Thai wives/girlfriends probably works a lot better and more successfully than you might think.

so what percentage would you suggest (you forgot to mention it)? purchasing arrangements (as you called it) last 2 hours at the bar, 2 days at the hotel, 2 weeks in your holidays, 2 month if you disagree, and 2 years if you agree. this is not what i might think, this is what i see since nearly 10 years in thailand (exceptions negliglible <5%). if you believe, those happy 2 years are a success, than you are an incorrigible optimist.......and you still did not respond to the question: what if your big love goes down the drain? impossible?? how much would you invest for just 2 years? gimme a number please (no objection if <100,000 baht).......................and i'm not talking love, but return on investment! (if there's no love w/o investment, somethings wrong!)

Such a bitter sentiment, are you certain that Thailand is right for you and vica versa.

[mickba]

Hi,

I'm posting this under the thread I've belatedly found, but also messaging some of the contributors who seem to know what they're talking about in the hope of getting some advice before I go to see the Lawyer.

I appear to have screwed up. I'm not really looking for confirmation of that, but hoping for some advice as to what I can do about it (if anything) and what problems lie in store for me in the future if I leave things as they are. I am happily NOT married to GF but it's not impossible. We have been together for coming up to 2 years and should be OK but who knows. I am 60 and about to apply for my first Retirement Visa Extension. GF is 41 with 2 children 15 & 18. She has 2 businesses including a bar and is a smart cookie i.e. dangerous.

First I paid for the land in GF's name and went to an English speaking Thai lawyer who drew up the Lease agreement giving me all sorts of wondrous "rights" but including the right to build a house and register title to it in my name. The existence of the Lease was then duly registered at the Land Office and entered on the Chanote. So far so good.

Then we went for the building permit and that's mainly where I went wrong. In the confusion and not being aware of the significance in Thailand of who applies for planning consent, my GF happily signed as requested on behalf of stupid farang. In due course she received the Blue Book in her name and apparently is now the registered owner of the house I am paying for. OK so now I'm scared/angry. I had the idea that I could get a Yellow book but the lawyer says "cannot" ( I can't spell the Thais' favourite word - "medai"??). I've found some posts which suggest that without residency and marriage that seems to be correct?

The contract with the builder was signed by both of us - right or wrong I don't know but it's in Thai and I couldn't read it and didn't have it translated.

Most of the payments have been made by cashier cheques from my Thai bank but some were made by GF and I reimbursed her (yes I know and I won't do it again). I have receipts but I don't know what they say apart from the amount. The house cost will be about 3 million and there is about 1 million yet to pay. It is about 90% complete.

The electricity supply has been done in her name.

Obviously I would like to get ownership of the house t/f into my name. The Lawyer says "cannot" for the same reasons re Yellow Book but I know he's wrong and I'm off to see him tomorrow. I presume I would now have to buy it from her and pay taxes. His assistant told me I could do this and said he would get a Land Office valuation but Lawyer said "cannot". I have recently realised that GF has known Lawyer for long long time so now I'm really scared. I spat the dummy on hearing all this, which did me no good at all. I should probably go to a different Lawyer but that would undoubtably cause friction so I would prefer to get it sorted where we are.

So what can I do and what can happen if I do nothing i.e. I have the Lease and she owns the house and assume we fall out. Could she get me evicted from her house albeit situated on "my" (leased) land? Could she sell or assign her house to ano?

I hope you've managed to plough through this and can find time to give me some ideas as to what I can do.

Thanks in anticipation,

Mick

[Heng]

So what keeps a person from bulldozing a house that is trespassing on his/her property? Or maybe something less extreme, such as just cutting the water or electric supply, or of the 'average extreme' like building a 3 meter high wall around the house on all sides?

[kamalabob2]

I think a trip by the Farang to a consult with a Expat attorney who speaks his native language (and Thai) is a good course of action. I am not an attorney, but I suspect that an unmarried person OR person married to a non-Thai citizen can in fact obtain a Yellow House book. The yellow House book is the proof of where you reside, not ownership of a dwelling. Once the person has the Yellow House book it is much easier to obtain the building permit. Once you are ready to move into a new home you can obtain a new yellow house book for the new home. The Thai residents of the home would be listed in the Blue House book. It might be more complicated and detailed than I just posted, so a visit to the NEW ATTORNEY would seem to be a crucial step.

Temporary electricity (about 5 baht a kilowatt) is NOT the same as PERMANENT ELECTRICAL SERVICE (which is basically 25% less money per kilo watt). A builder, Aunt, Mother in law can get temporary electrical service while a home is under construction, but at some point in the construction progress you can get a "HOUSE NUMBER" from the Amphur Office which somehow gives you the right to switch to PERMANENT ELECTRICITY and pay more deposit and installation fees for a permanent meter. In our case the same water meter was used for both "Temporary" and "Permanent" water supply, but the rate for the cubic meters of water dropped when we had the Permanent service. Again the "House Number" paper was a key item. Different Thai Utility and Government offices might have different interpretations of the rules.

Good luck in your situation and really an attorney that you retain is a good investment. Also if your girlfriend has a will (in Thai and English) that has specific mention of your rights if she should precede you in death could give you better rights than "statutory" regulations for Thai people who pass and have no written will. Perhaps if MIGHT help you if you have a will in Thailand (in Thai and English) with specific mention of how the ownership of the home would pass if you die prior to your girlfriend, or how the specific children fare in the scheme of things.

If the girlfriend passes before you and she has no written will, you might presently be in a poor position and be forced to defend your "lease rights" at no small cost or hassle. But a will that can show benefits to both you and her children and make things clear in advance might be very helpful. Perhaps you have considered a Prenuptial agreement before you do anything REALLY rash in Thailand.

[mickba]

I think a trip by the Farang to a consult with a Expat attorney who speaks his native language (and Thai) is a good course of action. I am not an attorney, but I suspect that an unmarried person OR person married to a non-Thai citizen can in fact obtain a Yellow House book. The yellow House book is the proof of where you reside, not ownership of a dwelling. Once the person has the Yellow House book it is much easier to obtain the building permit. Once you are ready to move into a new home you can obtain a new yellow house book for the new home. The Thai residents of the home would be listed in the Blue House book. It might be more complicated and detailed than I just posted, so a visit to the NEW ATTORNEY would seem to be a crucial step.

................................................................................

........................................................................... Also if your girlfriend has a will (in Thai and English) that has specific mention of your rights if she should precede you in death could give you better rights than "statutory" regulations for Thai people who pass and have no written will. Perhaps if MIGHT help you if you have a will in Thailand (in Thai and English) with specific mention of how the ownership of the home would pass if you die prior to your girlfriend, or how the specific children fare in the scheme of things.

If the girlfriend passes before you and she has no written will, you might presently be in a poor position and be forced to defend your "lease rights" at no small cost or hassle. But a will that can show benefits to both you and her children and make things clear in advance might be very helpful. Perhaps you have considered a Prenuptial agreement before you do anything REALLY rash in Thailand.

Thanks. I understand the electrical supply stuff.

I must look again re Yellow Book. I found some threads on here and the list of requirements included a marriage certificate and some residency requirements/work permit I can't remember but it appeared to exclude me. I will go to see ano lawyer and see what he says.

Wills may well be a good idea but would that be any stronger than the Lease Agreement which appears to cover most points. The registration of the Lease on the Chanote is the strongest thing I have, but of course it would lapse on my death, regardless of clever clauses in the Lease saying it would pass to my children. In reality that would require a new entry on the Chanote, which could only be done with the owner's consent. Why would she? I do need to check what happens if she expires first. I believe the Lease would stand anyway and the Lease Agreement says her children must honour it (but ?).

I do (hang on I'll check) yes I do have possession of the Chanote and all other paperwork including her Blue Book at present.

Thanks

Mick