Its Not About Culture, Its About Being Human

[Dupont]

Culture is never an excuse to 'turn the other cheek'. This man risked his life to help another human in need..........very admirable indeed! If a friend of mine was in a similar position as her I would hope someone like him was close by. SBK....can i ask you wouldnt you hope someone like him was nearby if you were king hit like her and in further danger?

What else bothers me about this is the opportunistic nature of Thai men to attack farangs at any opportunity, it is said of so much on this forum..........do they hate us so much? and why ?

They attack their own like this. Always in packs and never exposing themselves to risk GENERALLY, not all of them all the time!

They also change sides if things look like they may turn for the worse and I've seen em helping beat up somebody who they were helping earlier on in the night. Individually, they are certainly more cowardly than we are.

And please SBK, If somebody is beating you up, they are beating you up. That was the question, not an opening to thrill us with girls own type tales of the superiority and power of the western woman. Your last post was as dramatic as the OP. There was an IF in the question.

Whilst I agree that nobody should stand by or appease, there is a better way than an all out assualt. I am big, and have used my size a number of times here. Putting 100kg of farang in the way stops it as they cannot get past you to their target.

Red mist is red mist and it passes after a few seconds and it usually clears.

[davejonesbkk]

We don't know that they were 4 random guys watching a woman get beaten up, do we? As has been previously pointed out, we don't know and the OP certainly didn't know the true situation. Of course, it is never ok to hit anyone so hard that they go into convulsions and I would have probably rushed to help the woman, as that would have been my first reaction, but none of us know what was going on in that scenario. So, despite the OP assuming the 4 guys were uninvolved, there is no way of knowing that for sure. For all we know, this woman could have just beaten up his mother and he was getting his revenge, and those were his friends. She could also have been his wife, who has put up with years of abuse and these 4 guys knew that even if they intervened, she'd still go back to him. So, some drunken farang guy rushes in and and tries to kill their friend. What makes that "no reason"?

There are a hundred different stories that could be attributed to this event, none of which we can ever know for sure.

Absolutely unbelievable thing to say after someone has been attacked and is convulsing on the ground and coming from a woman too makes it even more shocking....this whole thing about 'rushing to save the woman' and ignoring the guy is complete fantasy and I get the impression that the people who are saying this have never really been in a violent situation like this and are dreaming. Had most of you acted in this way you would have probably found yourself convulsing on the floor too...

I think the OP has been in a very diffiult and ethical situation which is very hard to answer as 'right' or 'wrong', but in typical ThaiVisa fashion he's being torn apart by the forum heroes.....pray that your wife/gf/sister/mother etc is never in a situation like this.

Edited March 20, 2008 by davejonesbkk

[uptou]

JD, you made two posts on this subject and both times suggested the woman may have been a prostitute. Close to adding"and she probably deserved it" aren't you?"

The man stepped in with no thought of his own safety to stop a man attacking a woman. Foolish in any country maybe. Brave in any country also.

No .. I pointed out that the guy had absolutely NO CLUE. By Thai standards prevalent in Pattaya, she may have deserved it. I have no idea! We are completely unaware of the events leading to any of this except some drunk farang stepped into a situation totally beyond his experience. Fortunately at least HE escaped with his life intact. Who knows what happened to the woman later? Did she get blamed for the broken window in the vehicle? Was she beaten more and worse due to Rambo's interference? We don't know. We never will.

So say it was you who was the woman who got knocked out by some thai guy,& "Rambo",as you put it,came to your aid,whilst you were lying on the ground helpless whilst 4 other thai guys watched it happen & did nothing,unable to defend yourself & probably having thoughts that the guy was going to finish you off.

Would you be so judgemental of Rambo the day after?I recon you'd be buying him a coffee.

Going by this STORY,the guy had only seconds to either decide to calm down,or do something.Surely these situations or not so black & white.......or maybe they are as long as its you not getting the beating.

[jdinasia]

JD, you made two posts on this subject and both times suggested the woman may have been a prostitute. Close to adding"and she probably deserved it" aren't you?"

The man stepped in with no thought of his own safety to stop a man attacking a woman. Foolish in any country maybe. Brave in any country also.

No .. I pointed out that the guy had absolutely NO CLUE. By Thai standards prevalent in Pattaya, she may have deserved it. I have no idea! We are completely unaware of the events leading to any of this except some drunk farang stepped into a situation totally beyond his experience. Fortunately at least HE escaped with his life intact. Who knows what happened to the woman later? Did she get blamed for the broken window in the vehicle? Was she beaten more and worse due to Rambo's interference? We don't know. We never will.

So say it was you who was the woman who got knocked out by some thai guy,& "Rambo",as you put it,came to your aid,whilst you were lying on the ground helpless whilst 4 other thai guys watched it happen & did nothing,unable to defend yourself & probably having thoughts that the guy was going to finish you off.

Would you be so judgemental of Rambo the day after?I recon you'd be buying him a coffee.

Going by this STORY,the guy had only seconds to either decide to calm down,or do something.Surely these situations or not so black & white.......or maybe they are as long as its you not getting the beating.

So, say I wasn't the girl. Instead, say I was the guy and the woman had just beat my mother to death and threatened to cut off Mr Happy and feed him to a duck while i slept...

what is your point? You don't know what happened and you don't understand the situation any more than Rambo did.

analogy is always suspect and yours is worse than any I have seen. Blatant supposition supporting facts not in evidence. What is known about this situation is very limited.

SBK makes some valid points regarding spousal abuse being a recurring crime. She also re-iterated my points about not knowing the situation.

2 things to do in that situation, calmly try and de-escalate the situation and check on the welfare of the woman .. failing the ability to do either of those things. walk away and call the police.

[burman]

So, say I wasn't the girl. Instead, say I was the guy and the woman had just beat my mother to death and threatened to cut off Mr Happy and feed him to a duck while i slept...

I'd like it to be known now that whilst I did call the OP brave (and maybe foolish) for having a go, if indeed the woman had murdered her attacker's mother then I will admit that he definitely made a mistake.

[favre360]

Some of you guys are really taking this to the extreme. There were empty bowls at the noodle place on the table and they were standing outside the guys truck arguing. Lets put two and two together here. These people were every day laborers, the woman was no hooker, the man was no pimp/drug dealer, and I would put my life on the line to say she did not kill his mother. Maybe she cheated, stole some money, or forgot to do the laundry. Either way nothing constitutes for behaving in such a mannor.

I also know that the 4 guys had nothing to do with the one who hit his wife because they said nothing to him, just walked back to their posts. The only reason you would say nothing is if you didn't know the person. Case closed.

[uptou]

quote jdinasia-"what is your point? You don't know what happened and you don't understand the situation any more than Rambo did."

Exactly,& neither do you,& again,i find it hard to believe you would be so judgemental if you were the one lying on the ground,eyes rolling???

Its possible to lose your cool,but still have good intentions.Plus the guy put himself at risk.

Were "Rambos" intentions good?To me that is all the matters.Weve all screwed up with our decisions over here at some point.

Can you also look at this from a purely masculine minded point of veiw?

[way2muchcoffee]

To paraphrase Occam's Razor: 'the simplest explanation is usually the closest to reality'

[elkangorito]

If you were getting beat down on the street while a gaggle of guys sat around and watched, would you wish for somebody to have the courage to step up and put a stop to it?

"Wishing" for somebody to help you is vastly different from "asking" for help.

I refuse to put myself in harms way just to appear to be a "nice guy" or sillier yet, a "hero". This particularly applies when I don't know the people involved &/or I am not likely to know the people involved. Then again, if someone asks me for help, I will weigh up the situation before I decide to becoming involved, if I decide to become involved. I love CHOICE.

On the other hand, if such a situation arises from which I cannot escape & I do think that I may be at risk, I will take preemptive action (& expect the worst).

[jdinasia]

quote jdinasia-"what is your point? You don't know what happened and you don't understand the situation any more than Rambo did."

Exactly,& neither do you,& again,i find it hard to believe you would be so judgemental if you were the one lying on the ground,eyes rolling???

Its possible to lose your cool,but still have good intentions.Plus the guy put himself at risk.

Were "Rambos" intentions good?To me that is all the matters.Weve all screwed up with our decisions over here at some point.

Can you also look at this from a purely masculine minded point of veiw?

First you ask me to put myself in the woman's situation .. then a purely masculine minded pov. The only thing we know for sure is that Rambo had been drinking. Everything (and yes I mean EVERYTHING) else is purely supposition. I am happy that Rambo is alive and kicking and not in the hospital or worse.

Rambo --- average laborers don't own trucks and if you can spot a drug dealer pimp or hooker that isn't trying to sell you something at the time (or dressed for a night swinging on poles) by sight then you are an amazing man particularly in Thailand! To assume that the 4 other guys were not acquainted with the initial assailant is specious. They could have known him well and knew better than to get further involved.

I guess neither of you read taxexile's story?

[favre360]

quote jdinasia-"what is your point? You don't know what happened and you don't understand the situation any more than Rambo did."

Exactly,& neither do you,& again,i find it hard to believe you would be so judgemental if you were the one lying on the ground,eyes rolling???

Its possible to lose your cool,but still have good intentions.Plus the guy put himself at risk.

Were "Rambos" intentions good?To me that is all the matters.Weve all screwed up with our decisions over here at some point.

Can you also look at this from a purely masculine minded point of veiw?

First you ask me to put myself in the woman's situation .. then a purely masculine minded pov. The only thing we know for sure is that Rambo had been drinking. Everything (and yes I mean EVERYTHING) else is purely supposition. I am happy that Rambo is alive and kicking and not in the hospital or worse.

Rambo --- average laborers don't own trucks and if you can spot a drug dealer pimp or hooker that isn't trying to sell you something at the time (or dressed for a night swinging on poles) by sight then you are an amazing man particularly in Thailand! To assume that the 4 other guys were not acquainted with the initial assailant is specious. They could have known him well and knew better than to get further involved.

I guess neither of you read taxexile's story?

JD- If you can't spot a hooker or drug dealer in Thailand you definitly need to take a trip down to charden optical. I recommend the on near the victory monument BTS across from center one... they give me comission .

[onzestan]

Here's a guy who clearly is conditioned by the fact that in his youth his father used to beat his mother.

That's a very powerful and traumatic imprint on someone's psychy, I know because I've been there.

I would probably have reacted the same way he did, but would not have described it in the same Mickey Spilane way he did.

For once I completely agree with Guesthouse regarding this subject, and let's face it SBK no matter how much you dance around it, you clearly condemned this guy in your first post forgetting that a woman probably reacts different to any situation involving domestic violence than a man, and to JDinasia just because domestic violence occurs a lot doesn't make it right does it.

To the OP well done man, the only mistake you made was posting this on this forum.

onzestan

[jdinasia]

JD- If you can't spot a hooker or drug dealer in Thailand you definitly need to take a trip down to charden optical. I recommend the on near the victory monument BTS across from center one... they give me comission .

LOL .. yeah .. you have it bad! Not only Rambo but Superman too!

No I can't tell a hooker from a non-hooker just by looking (well unless I am at Playskool) and I certainly can't tell a drug dealer just by looking unless he's in the act of selling something. And I use a better optometrist than Charoen

[Maigo6]

Here's a guy who clearly is conditioned by the fact that in his youth his father used to beat his mother.

That's a very powerful and traumatic imprint on someone's psychy, I know because I've been there.

Yep, it's pretty powerful stuff....................I'm a childrens home boy myself.........my Father is 76 years old this year, and you know what, i'll never see him again, cos we don't have any type of relationship at all. ( Although I would like to see him )

I was raised in childrens homes cos my parents were so fawked up and disfunctional.

I have absolutely no regrets { no choice }, and I had a great time away from my parents, my life would no doubt have been much worse had I had stayed with them.

And if I was bitter and twisted, what good would it do me, the past is the past, that's it!

Edited March 20, 2008 by Maigo6

[bina]

i cant quite understand why everyone harps about 'thais beating up on farangs'' as if this doesnt happen in our home countries...

my husband has now twice been attacked by locals (he's thai, they are local 'homeboy' israeli teenage thugs) and no one stepped in to help... both times, until he called me and i called the police in one case, and his boss in the other (co worker threatened to 'break his arms and legs' and pulled a knife on him, for daring to tell this pimply idiot what to do in the morning at work...

police were called, statements made, and that was the end of it...in the first case. second time round, the two other foreign workers stayed alert in the back ground but didnt interfere, neither did the other israeli co workers... until i called the boss at home.... so the situation didnt degenerate into total actual physical actions... (and proving that my thai husband has an amazing control over his temper when needed since he is hot tempered and an ex muey thai boxer)

like, in any country the local scum bags tend to gang up on the 'different', immigrant, 'no speakathelanguage', stick out like a sore thumb ' types...

and '... thai are cowardly for ganging up...' instead of ? what? arranging a one on one fist fight??

like in the states, if some strange guy comes bashing into a local 'scene' between some girlfriend and her scum boyfriend , the local group hanging out on the corner wont rush in a as a group to settle the score? what, u all grew up in valiumed out suburbs? not where i grew up.

someone that interfered with someone' elses problem, got caught up and possibly bashed up as well...

honorable, knightly fights only happen in camelot and among samurai.

bina

israel

[way2muchcoffee]

Nope. It's called honor, courage, and pride Bina. I don't know where you grew up, but the ganging up thing very rarely happened anywhere near where I lived. When people heard of that kind of thing happening, the offending group would be condemned for being cowards, just like when it happens here.

Mostly you would here about that kind of behavior in racist 'redneck' areas and in 'gang' areas. Consequently, neither of these types are respected much. I have never even heard of someone getting attacked by a group of men when stopping a scene like the OP described.

Edited March 20, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[taxexile]

I have never even heard of someone getting attacked by a group of men when stopping a scene like the OP described

a regular occurence in the uk these days is the attacking of fire and ambulance crews at accident or fire scenes by local gangs.

[garro]

I'm surprised that so many on the forum would applaud the actions of somebody who so obviously went over the top in his wish to be a hero. I might not like what somebody does and I agree that it may have been necessary to get a bit physical to help the girl, but it doesn't give me the right to try and beat a stranger to death. Thailand isn't the wild west despite what some people like to think. Going back to his drunken mates and attempting to form a lynch mob also seems way over the top to me.

It is funny how so many ex-pats complain about the amount of violence, which westerners get themselves involved in while in Thailand. yet are so willing to applaud those who get involved in it.

BTW, before somebody makes the smart comment that I obviously know nothing about violence let me assure that, while I'm no Rambo, I have seen plenty of violence and plenty of the after-effects of violence.

Edited March 20, 2008 by garro

[stumonster]

So i'm drinking at my buddy's apt. in Lamlukka

Being rambo --- particularly in Pattaya .. is just plain stupid

NO CLUE. By Thai standards prevalent in Pattaya,

Lamlukka is not in Pattaya

[PeaceBlondie]

And while we are handing out easy cliches to solve this complex problem, "Who died and left you as God?" What God of Western civilization said it was righteous to kill or maim some stranger you just saw 15 seconds ago? Who appointed you to be the avenger of the universe? When did two wrongs start making one righteous act? How does slamming this guy halfway to hel_l make Thailand some kind of Heaven?

I'll get me coat.....

[thaibebop]

Can I ask why you didn't try to help her first instead of punching her husband/boyfriend/brother/whatever in the face? I mean, my first reaction would have been to rush to help the fallen woman, who clearly needed help.

If you did help the girl first and the guy didn't like and attacked you, what then? I am curious not trying to make a point.

[Eric1949]

I'd agree with sbk's reply to a large degree.

But cut the guy a little slack at least he was prepared to get involved and do something. Bear in mind it was probably heat of the moment too. It might be OK for sbk or another woman to immediately attend to the woman. I think if a guy tried to do that, though, there's a very strong chance he would be attacked while doing so. Hence clearing the immediate danger out of the way first mightn't have been such a bad idea.

Shame that people have chosen so far to criticise and focus on the OPs actions. The bigger issues really are the way the guy beat up his wife. Nobody did anything. But when someone does get involved, suddenly 4 people do feel the urge to get involved.

For me you've got to question more:

1) The Thai guy's actions in beating up his wife

2) 4 people standing by and doing nothing while a woman gets assualted.

3) Yet they will get involved when someone else tries to intervene.

4) Sort of implies it's OK for a husband to beat up his wife in Thailand. Actually this also seems to extend to anyone of higher status beating up someone lower

5) Reaction and comment that you don't get involved in something that is wrong, unless it's your own family.

BTW OP, Going back later looking for a fight though is just plain stupid. Finding yourself in the middle of a situation is one thing. Going looking for a situation is completely different. Unfortunately your own stupid behaviour has sort of undermined what otherwise would have been more interesting points/issues for discussion.

For me the 5 points above are the ones more worthy of discussion...

Yes, a hard decision. Been there, done that. I wouldn't get involved again. The Thai male IS basically cowardly, if he is confronted on a one to one, he will back off and return with mates. He cannot fight alone.

[garro]

At the risk of sounding repetitive.

The OP said;

I want him to feel exactly what its like to have no one there to help him

This sounds less to do with crime prevention and more to do with dealing out justice.

[thaibebop]

At the risk of sounding repetitive.

The OP said;

I want him to feel exactly what its like to have no one there to help him

This sounds less to do with crime prevention and more to do with dealing out justice.

I would agree with that. While is playing Batman the young lady might just die, then who has he helped?

[farang prince]

Next time call the police. Let them take care of the problem. Situations in Thailand can quickly get out of control and they often produce tragic consequences. While Favre's intentions might have been honorable, the road to hel_l has been paved by good intentions. As a retired cop, I can tell you I would have called the police, then stayed a safe distance away and wait until they showed up. If you need to get involved, give them a statement about what happened.

[thaibebop]

Next time call the police. Let them take care of the problem. Situations in Thailand can quickly get out of control and they often produce tragic consequences. While Favre's intentions might have been honorable, the road to hel_l has been paved by good intentions. As a retired cop, I can tell you I would have called the police, then stayed a safe distance away and wait until they showed up. If you need to get involved, give them a statement about what happened.

Very sound advice. I wouldn't have even tried what he did here in America. I know I would have gone to jail as well, regardless of why I started beating on the guy.

[Prakanong]

Here's a guy who clearly is conditioned by the fact that in his youth his father used to beat his mother.

That's a very powerful and traumatic imprint on someone's psychy, I know because I've been there.

I would probably have reacted the same way he did, but would not have described it in the same Mickey Spilane way he did.

For once I completely agree with Guesthouse regarding this subject, and let's face it SBK no matter how much you dance around it, you clearly condemned this guy in your first post forgetting that a woman probably reacts different to any situation involving domestic violence than a man, and to JDinasia just because domestic violence occurs a lot doesn't make it right does it.

To the OP well done man, the only mistake you made was posting this on this forum.

onzestan

I read it same way as you - forgetting the others except OP and without washing dirty clothes in public I know too (Stepfather and I got the C%^&* later in life).

[Shotime]

You really have to be careful getting involved in this type of violence. I once saw a guy drag his girlfriend out of his car through the drivers side from the passenger side by her hair. She hit the ground pretty hard. She got up begging him to let her back in the car. It seemed like if someone came to her defense, she might have jumped the hero for interfering. This didn't happen in Thailand, but I don't see a difference. Do you think this was the first time he's ever hit her? Everyone brings something to the table. Best call the police

[Prakanong]

Actually, I was unhappy with the perception that I was dissing the guy for not helping the girl first, mine was an honest question.

And the answer, it would be unlikely that I would get myself into a situation where I was being "beat down" by a man. My father did not raise girls who take crap from men. I would not put up with a man who hit me. Most women who are in relationships with men who beat them have been beaten more than once, and continue to return to the abuser. And this is why the police hate getting involved in domestics, because often they are in as much danger from the woman seeing her man get beaten as they are from the man.

Oh it was the girls fault cos her Dad did not raise her not to get into the situation - ROFL

[Plus]

The OP had to make a decision in a split second, and even in the hindsight it appears his judgement was correct.

Was the attack on the woman warranted? No

Did she deserve being beaten unconscious? No

Was she an obvious criminal type herself - hooker, drug dealer, murdeder etc? No

Was the attacker some kind of armed and dangerous criminal? No

Did he have a gang of friends around him? No

Was the OP aware that he himself was drunk? Yes

Did the OP underestimated the impact of his drinking on his judgment? No, not really.

The only mistake was not stopping when the guy was clearly down, easy to judge in the morning but not unexpected in the heat of the moment. Even now it appears there were no downsides like lawsuits or revenge attempts.

And let's not forget that Thai bystanders intervened only when it appeared the OP went a bit too far, and they didn't really mean to do any harm to him, only prevent him from calling the police. They didn't want to be part of this dispute any more than your average Thaivisa coward.

The advice given in this thread is ok - be careful getting involved in something you have no clue about, but it seems the OP calculated his risks, even if subconsciously, very well.

>>>

Unlike Taxexile's case, Lamlukka is a fairly urbanised area, no one "owns" the main roads, certainly not the types who'd beat women in front of 7-elevens.

>>>

SBK, you, as a woman, don't expect being attacked if you try to help the victim, it doesn't even occure to you, not the same for the OP.

Besides, even if you are a trained emergency worker, there's nothing critically important you can do to help in this case, there's no pressing need to attend to the victim, it's not like blood is gushing from her arteries and she'd die within minutes if you don't stop it. The OP made the right call. Almost perfect.