Us Demands Thailand Halt Intellectual Property Violations

[dominique355]

- The Copyright Act protects works of Art.

Copyright applies to a lot more than works or art.

You are of course right, Chanman, and that's why I said "in simple terms". It also protects e.g. computer programs, and much much more.

In general, you can say that the Copyright Act protects the individual expression of an original thought. But then, there are some differences between the continental European and the Anglosaxon approach.

I could go on for hours, but I hope the general idea has been made clear.

[Prakanong]

i) Governments in the west won't be contributing to foreign activities anytime soon. The goal of funding is to promote the donor nation's intellectual capital.

They just need drugs for their population and so hire pharma companies to do research for them. The papers on cost/benefit analysis I've seen do not account for any intellectual capital at all. I don't think they care very much where the research takes place and who are the guinea pigs.

Who can and can not be gunea pigs as you call them (We call them Subjects but the old fashioned call them Patients as in PID - patient ID) is very explicitly laid out in the ICH / WHO GCP (Good Clinical Practice guidlines ) that all drugs developed in the western world ie EMEA, FDA and most countries require - even if the country does not require this the trial is conducted under these guidelines by most if not all pharma.

As an example a prisoner can not be used as they do not have the total free will to give Informed Consent - there are many other occasions when a subject can not give informed consent.

There has been some recent cases in India when unbscrupulous Dr's coerced patients into trials but hopefully that has been stopped now - the trials I have seen in India recently all work to GCP and to very high standards as evidenced by recent audits with no findings.

[nick2k]

my 2 cents...

I don't believe in free trade. and I would prefer that the policy of building american factories and exporting american jobs overseas be stopped. granted, a world where fair trade exists will become a better world with the sharing that goes around. but that is not happening. everyone is protecting themselves. and taking what they can get at the expense of others. definitely unfair trade.

maybe in the future the world will become more friendly towards a free and fair trade scenario. but now is not the time.

[dave_boo]

my 2 cents...

I don't believe in free trade. and I would prefer that the policy of building american factories and exporting american jobs overseas be stopped. granted, a world where fair trade exists will become a better world with the sharing that goes around. but that is not happening. everyone is protecting themselves. and taking what they can get at the expense of others. definitely unfair trade.

maybe in the future the world will become more friendly towards a free and fair trade scenario. but now is not the time.

The problem is that true Free Trade has to start somewhere. I'm very much in favour of a get the country hooked on it, and when the demonstrate that they can not live to the ideals, find another partner who will. Once the easy money stops flowing it, or looks to stop, either the offending country will shape up or screw themselves. It looks like Thailand has chosen the latter.

[YoungFarang13]

I went to Siam Paragon Cineplex the other day and when I got up to the counter it turned out the movie I wanted to see was in one of those special theaters that cost 400 baht. Can you believe that? The absolute nerve! They were trying to rob me. I tried to haggle her down but she refused so I bought a ticket to a regular theater, with the smal seats and then snuck into the expensive theater with the huge, gigantic, comfortable seats. I was still mad about their attempt to rob me so I snuck into three other movies that day but I would have NEVER gone to see them if they were not free so I don't view this as stealing. If you would not pay for something, then that means you can take it for free without having to worry that you are doing something wrong.

[Prakanong]

my 2 cents...

I don't believe in free trade. and I would prefer that the policy of building american factories and exporting american jobs overseas be stopped. granted, a world where fair trade exists will become a better world with the sharing that goes around. but that is not happening. everyone is protecting themselves. and taking what they can get at the expense of others. definitely unfair trade.

maybe in the future the world will become more friendly towards a free and fair trade scenario. but now is not the time.

I see Ricardo's little theory does not convince you?

As for exporting American jobs oversea's - its just the structure of the economy changing - there has always been winners and losers. I have been through it myself when Thatcher closed the coal mines in the UK. I will dance on her grave with a bottle of champagne when she goes with a few pals - we can afford the champagne which we might not have done if we had remained miners ;-)

[Plus]

Who can and can not be gunea pigs as you call them (We call them Subjects but the old fashioned call them Patients as in PID - patient ID) is very explicitly laid out in the ICH / WHO GCP (Good Clinical Practice guidlines ) that all drugs developed in the western world ie EMEA, FDA and most countries require - even if the country does not require this the trial is conducted under these guidelines by most if not all pharma.

I was speaking of geographical locations, does the US government that sponsors some drug insist that all trials must be conducted only on US citizens, to keep the money in the country? It believe not.

As for Subjects or PIDs - call them whatever you want, if it makes the industry feel happy, I wasn't really expecting them to use the term "guinea pigs".

[Prakanong]

Who can and can not be gunea pigs as you call them (We call them Subjects but the old fashioned call them Patients as in PID - patient ID) is very explicitly laid out in the ICH / WHO GCP (Good Clinical Practice guidlines ) that all drugs developed in the western world ie EMEA, FDA and most countries require - even if the country does not require this the trial is conducted under these guidelines by most if not all pharma.

I was speaking of geographical locations, does the US government that sponsors some drug insist that all trials must be conducted only on US citizens, to keep the money in the country? It believe not.

As for Subjects or PIDs - call them whatever you want, if it makes the industry feel happy, I wasn't really expecting them to use the term "guinea pigs".

The US NIH trials I know of were conducted inthe USA but we are working with Walter Reed among others where the studies are conducted outside the USA - you do not really have the diseases in question there.

Most large scale trials leading to registration of drugs and vaccines though are not sponsored by any govt including the USA - that is the realm of the drug companies.

I do not know about the indusry feeling happy about the terms used but it is certainly more dignified for the people involved who are all volunteers.

[hansnl]

I must agree with this though:

because neither the US or the UK can mind their own business and let others rule their own countries how they see fit.

Well, I rather think that you overrate the influence of those two countries, generally speaking.

What about France, Germany?

What about China, India, Pakistan.

Please go on, complete your favourite hate list.

Don't be afraid, just do it.

What real influence have the two countries on your hate list, US & UK.

Besides McTerrible, Kentucky F****d Chicken, and other cultural examples for the US, and Twesco, Bouts for the UK?

Oh yes, they try, but generally speaking, the countries all kind of muscles are nearly strained for, just play along and do what they want to do, or deem necessary.

[hansnl]

Guys (and Gals), there's more at stake here than boot-leg dvds/cds (i.e. the RIAA can go fornicate with themselves!). Currently the US is THE place where new medicines are being developed.

While socialised medicine is a good idea in my view, humans are by nature largely not altruistic. If there's no profit, there's no motivation. Try and name a drug that has been recently developed in another country. Even the little blue pill which allows so many of our older TV members to enjoy the carnal pleasures that Thailand offers was developed at the behest of an American company.

With as much hatred of the US as is slung around this forum, I don't think you'd want to antagonise a country that you're so dependant upon for such a vital resource. If it can go to war over the fact that someone tried to kill its leader's pappy (and the perceived oil it was going to harvest), than what makes you think that it can't just pick its ball up and go home. And there'd be nothing you could do about it without being a hypocrite. After all, if you insist that the US should stay out of Thailand's business, you couldn't rightly tell the US it has to share discoveries based on their spent monies.

Your view about medicines being designed/developed by companies in the US, is quite wrong.

Most medicines are NOT developed by companies, but by researchers paid for by grants from Governments and public funds.

And your idea that most medicines are fabricated by US companies, well maybe by companies also working in the US.

Indeed, most "designer" and cosmetic drugs are developed in the US, but real health drugs definitely NOT.

hel_l, most companies spend less than 5% on research!

And no, the US did not discover the Internet!

And no, I do not hate the US or the UK!

And going on the warpath?

World War 1 The US came in for the finale

World War 2 The US did not finish the job

Korea Still going on, more or less

Vietnam You lost

Gulf War 1 The US should have finished it in the right way

Gulf War 2 Still going on, and it is a mess

Shall I go on?

Edited April 10, 2008 by hansnl

[dave_boo]

Guys (and Gals), there's more at stake here than boot-leg dvds/cds (i.e. the RIAA can go fornicate with themselves!). Currently the US is THE place where new medicines are being developed.

While socialised medicine is a good idea in my view, humans are by nature largely not altruistic. If there's no profit, there's no motivation. Try and name a drug that has been recently developed in another country. Even the little blue pill which allows so many of our older TV members to enjoy the carnal pleasures that Thailand offers was developed at the behest of an American company.

With as much hatred of the US as is slung around this forum, I don't think you'd want to antagonise a country that you're so dependant upon for such a vital resource. If it can go to war over the fact that someone tried to kill its leader's pappy (and the perceived oil it was going to harvest), than what makes you think that it can't just pick its ball up and go home. And there'd be nothing you could do about it without being a hypocrite. After all, if you insist that the US should stay out of Thailand's business, you couldn't rightly tell the US it has to share discoveries based on their spent monies.

Your view about medicines being designed/developed by companies in the US, is quite wrong.

Most medicines are NOT developed by companies, but by researchers paid for by grants from Governments and public funds.

And your idea that most medicines are fabricated by US companies, well maybe by companies also working in the US.

Indeed, most "designer" and cosmetic drugs are developed in the US, but real health drugs definitely NOT.

hel_l, most companies spend less than 5% on research!

And no, the US did not discover the Internet!

And no, I do not hate the US or the UK!

And going on the warpath?

World War 1 The US came in for the finale

World War 2 The US did not finish the job

Korea Still going on, more or less

Vietnam You lost

Gulf War 1 The US should have finished it in the right way

Gulf War 2 Still going on, and it is a mess

Shall I go on?

And where do the grants go? If not to Universities, than straight to the drug companies. Also, there's a big difference between drug discovery and drug development. The discovery is something any yahoo can do if they have the tools. The actual development is quite a bit different and requires the resources of a company.

And it appears that I mis-spoke. Out of the top 5 pharmaceutical companies, with an annual sales of 174 Billion USD, the US has a grand total of 1 (one) company. There's 1 British, 1 French, and 2 Swiss.

You little rant about not hating the US/UK is shown to be hypocritical based on your edit. I don't see how the US didn't finish the job in WWII--I guess providing the Western European countries with a new set of troops to take pressure off the Russians in the east didn't win the war? I suppose that the sweep up from Australia and the nuking of Japan didn't win the war? I haven't seen any recent hostilities in Korea--perhaps you could link to them? Vietnam was a shame. Are you saying the US, and their allies, didn't win the first Gulf War? They liberated Kuwait. Drove the Iraqi army back almost to Baghdad. Pretty convincing. And much better than Iran that fought Iraq for how many years to a standstill. The current quagmire in Iraq is just that; a quagmire. It has quickly devolved from the war that the US, and allies, quickly won into a policing action. How well have UN/NATO policing actions worked? Perhaps if the US would only wage war rather than try and fix up the place after those US detractors wouldn't have so much ammunition--however, this is not the *right* thing to do (i.e., if you break something you fix it).

I notice how you left out all the other engagements that the US has been successfully part of in the same time frame as you listed. Here's a list:

1. Operation Ajax 1953
   
2. Operation PBSUCCESS 1954
   
3. Operation PowerPack 1965
   
4. Operation Urgetn Fury 1983
   
5. etc.etc.
   

[JimmyCA]

I buy all my computer programs and movies in Thailand. Quality is about the same and price is much lower. F Bill Gates he has enough money.

Why should an actor or musician make 20 million when 1 mill is more than they deserve?

Don't these douchbag American companies know they have to compete on value to the consumer?

[dave_boo]

I buy all my computer programs and movies in Thailand. Quality is about the same and price is much lower. F Bill Gates he has enough money.

Why should an actor or musician make 20 million when 1 mill is more than they deserve?

Don't these douchbag American companies know they have to compete on value to the consumer?

Wow, I'm glad that you're able to justify stealing the works of others. I suppose someone could find something of yours and take it because they think you have enough money........

[JimmyCA]

I buy all my computer programs and movies in Thailand. Quality is about the same and price is much lower. F Bill Gates he has enough money.

Why should an actor or musician make 20 million when 1 mill is more than they deserve?

Don't these douchbag American companies know they have to compete on value to the consumer?

Wow, I'm glad that you're able to justify stealing the works of others. I suppose someone could find something of yours and take it because they think you have enough money........

Been happening for to me for 20 years. I have some patented machines which were copied by fortune 500 companies. I in the end we could not survive their unbelievablely expensive legal manuvering. Never any help from Uncle Sam.

So at the core it is, as always, the big guy is right and little guy wrong.

I'll take the copies thankyou

[CCCP]

I am happy with my downloads tonight. All strictly legal of course!!

[khunjamespittman]

At least in IT sector a large portion of the people are not US citizens. I don't know about pharma.

Plus, saying something doesn't make it true. A quick look at the quarterly US Economic employment statistics would show you that your assertions are just plain "BS". At least try to not to make your own facts. Your rantings show your deep lack of self-respect.http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/style_emotic...fault/smile.gif

[Prakanong]

"hel_l, most companies spend less than 5% on research!"

Ahh ignorance is bliss - learn to read the company reports and educate yourself - its better than showing yourself up on a public forum.

[Prakanong]

"And it appears that I mis-spoke. Out of the top 5 pharmaceutical companies, with an annual sales of 174 Billion USD, the US has a grand total of 1 (one) company. There's 1 British, 1 French, and 2 Swiss."

Different people have different views about this but it depends on what is being measured. For example Johnson & Johnson often appears in the top 5 if not number 1 in some lists but this is not all down to what I would call "Pharma"' sales.

There are 5 main business area's in the Pharma Industry

1) Ethical (I call this pharma but the corrct name is ethical) which are generally the prescription drugs we all talk about from antibiotics through to specialist oncolgy drugs and all stops in between

2) Vaccines

3) OTC (Over the counter)

4) Biotech

5) Generics

Most of the big companies are in about 3 of these areas but sometimes they keep the biotech division at arms length to keep the innoation going and a few are re-entering vaccines due to the new wave of very profitabl opportunities emerging.

The lists we usually go by has Pfizer nubmer 1 with GSK number 2 - then it is the others. Pfizer is the USA and the biggest Merck is - if Merck is in the 5 the USA has 2 if not they only have 1.

Vaccines have a oligolopy of 5 - used to be over 20 in the 80's but they all dropped out and seem to be rushing back in now.

[Plus]

At least in IT sector a large portion of the people are not US citizens. I don't know about pharma.

Plus, saying something doesn't make it true. A quick look at the quarterly US Economic employment statistics would show you that your assertions are just plain "BS". At least try to not to make your own facts. Your rantings show your deep lack of self-respect.

Hello??? I posted numbers and links already.

Your quick look will probably reveal that nearly 20% of US workforce is foreign anyway.

And how about this data, circa 2000, widely circulated on the internet but never refuted, to my knowledge:

12% of scientists in the US are Indians

38% of doctors(physicians, dentists, PhDs, etc) in America are Indian.

36% of NASA scientists are Indians.

34% of Microsoft employees are Indians.

28% of IBM employees are Indians.

17% of INTEL scientists are Indians.

13% of XEROX employees are Indians.

The usually quoted source is a German magazine

[Scott]

And 98% of maids and gardners are Hispanic.

So what exactly is the point? Since their are foreign employees, no one should have protection?

The protection of intellectual property should, does and can include most countries. If you an Indian author and copyright the book, you should get the proceeds regardless of where are from or where you live.

[nick2k]

I think people should respect IP laws.

but since they are not, my guess is - people will start copying software made in thailand and selling it overseas. why not?

what is good for the gander is good for the geese.

one of my friends buys thai music cds here in thailand, and sells them in the usa. he told me he doesn't see the logic of buying the cds for 120 baht when he can make copies of them for 10 baht.

I really don't see the logic of not copying thailand's jasmine rice and selling it at a cheaper price. cambodia is already doing it. why shouldn't america do it?

thailand makes a lot of profit from selling their rice overseas because america allows them to keep their monopoly on jasmine rice. let's see how far they get when america starts selling an american version of jasmine rice.

it should make up for the money we are losing to thailands compulsory licensing of our drugs. ..wouldn't you agree?

[Plus]

They already have "jasmine" rice in the US, they just have to market it under different name.

If compulsory licennsing worries them - take it to WTO. Instead they try to retaliate via unrelated channels and have guts to call it a fair fight.

Lood at it - they don't respect Thailand's right to use CL but continue demanding respect for their IP rights.

No one can claim some sort of moral superiority in this particular case.

Speaking of morality - what else do they expect Thais to do when they are legally prohibited from PAYING for downloaded music. What's the new deal - $100 for all you can eat on Ipod. Thais need not apply, and they won't.

[Prakanong]

It is interesting to note that while violators of copyright law when it comes to local items are taken very seriously and punished severely, that there still remains such a lethargic attitude to theft of international owners' rights.

It serves to further highlight Thailand's insular and xenophobic nature IMO.

I tend to agree but hypocrasy is one of Thailands competitive advantages - they do not have many apart from sex and golf remember

Edited April 11, 2008 by Prakanong

[nick2k]

somebody spoke of "morality" in the issue of compulsory licensing of drugs. and although I would like to debate the issue of morality, I think it would be too time consuming. so, I will just say this - people in america have to eat too.

in a more broader perspective, I think people in thailand should keep in mind what they have to lose if they try to push through with this compulsory licensing of usa patented drugs...

as reported in the bangkokpost back in september 3, 2003, the trade surplus that thailand is experiencing with the usa is expected to double to over 800 BILLION baht in the next few years. and that was what was reported in 2003.

does it really make sense for thailand to chance losing this free trade status with the usa? especially for the small amounts they would save from stealing american drugs?

the numbers... 24 million dollars saved by going ahead with compulsory licensing versus 40+ BILLION DOLLARS trade surplus.

personally, I think thailand would be stupid to go ahead with the compulsory licensing. but then, it is their decision.

the usa could always find another country to do business with - like vietnam.

final note - like I said earlier, people in america got to eat too. just last month, it was reported 80,000 jobs were lost in america.

as it is, I think we in the usa are too generous with our trade agreements. that is why china has a trade surplus of over a trillion dollars with us. bottomline, I would prefer all american jobs and american factories return to america.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...286-9060112_ITM

http://english.people.com.cn/200612/22/eng...222_335032.html

http://thailand.prd.go.th/view_focus.php?id=2303

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-61...US-TOPS-US.html

[Prakanong]

Nick

You will like this one - it may educate others who say nothing is moving to Asia as well

http://www.outsourcing-pharma.com//news/ng...a%2B1G7Zg%3D%3D

"Over the past few years the pharma industry has been shovelling out work that it considers "non-core" to Asia by the bucket load and the region has become established as a major drug product and ingredients manufacturing hub as well as a popular destination to offshore many other functions such as IT and data management."

"If the majority, or at least a large portion, of fundamental intellectual property creation moves to Asia, the West's dominance and ownership in scientific breakthroughs will rapidly decline", PWC warned."

"As such, PWC has dubbed Asia as the "land of golden opportunities", predicting that it will become the largest pharmaceutical consumer and pharmaceutical producer in the world by the middle of the century, led by India and China."

[Plus]

If you want to talk CL, there's a thread on that.

For this thread the fact that it's perfectly legal is sufficient. In fact it underlines American hypocrisy when they resort to underhand tactics about it while taking a high moral stand.

[nick2k]

If you want to talk CL, there's a thread on that.

For this thread the fact that it's perfectly legal is sufficient. In fact it underlines American hypocrisy when they resort to underhand tactics about it while taking a high moral stand.

I am fully aware of the provision that allows third world countries who are poor to legally go the route of compulsory licensing.

in my opinion, thailand does not quality. it is not poor like some african countries. in fact, as I mentioned in an earlier post mentioned, they have a trade surplus of over 800 BILLION BAHT or 40+ BILLIONS DOLLARS with us.

talk about hypocrisy, look in the mirror, bro.

I agree with free and FAIR trade. but that is not what is happening. and the usa is holding the short end of the stick. that is not right.

we have some really stupid people in america who are ignoring the consequences of unfair trade. when the number of unemployed americans rises, they will start to understand. americans will force them to understand.

the problem will get fixed.

and people like me will lobby for changes that will protect america. my slogan will be - america first, americans first. just like everybody else is doing in the world.

as one of the very few countries in the world that can truly support it's citizens by just it's resources alone, we will never be poor. we have the ability to grow enough food to feed the world. those of you who wish america bad tidings, keep dreaming. that's all you can do. eat your heart out.

[Prakanong]

If you want to talk CL, there's a thread on that.

For this thread the fact that it's perfectly legal is sufficient. In fact it underlines American hypocrisy when they resort to underhand tactics about it while taking a high moral stand.

CL is indeed legal under TRIPS where there is a public health emergency

Thailand arguing for heart and cancer drugs might have a hard job defending that one though - HIV and the like is accepted - Thailand is pushing the envelope.

Easy peasy though - do not licence the drugs in Thailand - they will then have to break their own FDA law's and in the long run the only losers are the Thai's because they will never ever R&D drugs of their own - they just have not got the capacity to do it - good at running clinical trials though when paid enough and for world class companies giving them the guidance to competencies they could never develop themselves.

[cclub75]

CL is indeed legal under TRIPS where there is a public health emergency

Smoking too is legal. But it's bad.

We all know that the CL is "legal". But it goes way beyond the "spirit" of the WTO.

That's the point.

Anti clotting agent like Plavix is NOT AN HEALTH EMERGENCY. Eating ice cream, smoking, drinking whisky and becoming fat... is not a health emergency. It's a health problem sure, for not an emergency.

Of course, the thais say : "but in the treaty it is written that each country can define what is a health emergency, so ?"

You see : this is typical of thai way of thinking. They stop to the words of the law... they don't care about the spirit of the law. They don't understand this dual relationship. They prefer to double their military budget, it's more sanook.

Anyway. The discussion about CL is always the same. It's boring. Sorry.

[Prakanong]

CL is indeed legal under TRIPS where there is a public health emergency

Smoking too is legal. But it's bad.

We all know that the CL is "legal". But it goes way beyond the "spirit" of the WTO.

That's the point.

Anti clotting agent like Plavix is NOT AN HEALTH EMERGENCY. Eating ice cream, smoking, drinking whisky and becoming fat... is not a health emergency. It's a health problem sure, for not an emergency.

Of course, the thais say : "but in the treaty it is written that each country can define what is a health emergency, so ?"

You see : this is typical of thai way of thinking. They stop to the words of the law... they don't care about the spirit of the law. They don't understand this dual relationship. They prefer to double their military budget, it's more sanook.

Anyway. The discussion about CL is always the same. It's boring. Sorry.

I absolutely totally agree with you.

I was doing a case study last week and ther was an intresting quote from the head of CIPLA (one of the biggest generic producers) - he reckoned there would not be a market for generics in 20 years time as new pricing models and sale programs from the big pharma would negate the need for them.

I do not share his opinion but do beleive there will be new sales models where the large buyers ie monopsony's will give the pharma a decnet ROIC but will take into accout health economics with prices having a bell curve and when coming off patent be just as cheap as a generic would so no need.

This will not come tomorrow but that is the way many think it will go and the UK's PPRS is a start- allows about 20-22% ROIC I think it is - a balance to encourage innovation while getting a return and not selling in a free market - who know's even the USA might get its act together too at some point.