Tones And Rules

[21prozent]

I've been learning Thai remotly for a couple of years now. Remotely means, I'm not staying in Thailand at the moment...

Actually, it's not that difficult, expect handling with tones. So, my question is: Has anybody a understandable, complete overview of the tone rules. I mean that all of my books scratches the surface of the rules more or less. Honestly, in most cases I have no idea what they are talking about!

Please help, thanks!

[riga]

I've been learning Thai remotly for a couple of years now. Remotely means, I'm not staying in Thailand at the moment...

Actually, it's not that difficult, expect handling with tones. So, my question is: Has anybody a understandable, complete overview of the tone rules. I mean that all of my books scratches the surface of the rules more or less. Honestly, in most cases I have no idea what they are talking about!

Please help, thanks!

Hi 21prozent,

your post is a bit surprising to me and so I feel a little confused and I'm not sure if I can give you any useful advise.

You have been learning thai for a couple of years so much longer than me, but I was confronted with the tone rules just after I've managed to learn the thai alphabet. And even before I've started learning the language seriously tones were an issue when trying to learn some basic words and sentences when I was in Thailand for holyday (and therefore I knew that learning the tones and tones rules would have been a central point in the study of this language).

That's why I am surprised.

You stated that you don't find thai difficult to study (well, I would like to be able to say the same, but sadly I can't) so it should not be that difficult to learn few rules that you need to apply to determine the tone of a syllable. Here's a site were I started to learn them

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/tonerules

Obviously there are exceptions, and other special rules that you will find during your studies; but the rules reported in the site I've linked allows to determine the tones of most (so I guess) of the words.

Then there is a big difference between the ability to predict the correct tone of a syllable and the one to pronounce it with the correct tone... I have to work a lot on this, but will do it later, when I will have reached enough knowledges in reading and writing (and will have the chance to have a native speaker tutor who can correct me)

I know I've not answered your question, but I hope the link I suggested will help you a little bit.

Good luck for your studies

[Hobgoblin]

There are some videos put up on the web by what sounds like a foreigner, whose Thai pronunciation is fairly good (better than mine). He has up an instructional video of the tone rules that hit the nail on the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlw4NJdnNE

Now, if only I had access to this when I was learning

[mangkorn]

I've been learning Thai remotly for a couple of years now. Remotely means, I'm not staying in Thailand at the moment...

Actually, it's not that difficult, expect handling with tones. So, my question is: Has anybody a understandable, complete overview of the tone rules. I mean that all of my books scratches the surface of the rules more or less. Honestly, in most cases I have no idea what they are talking about!

Please help, thanks!

To say that learning Thai is not difficult, except for the tones, seems contradictory. If one doesn't know the tone rules, then it is not possible to read or understand the language, much less to write it. I also fail to see how one can understand speech, or to speak, without being able to discern the proper tones?

[Richard W]

I also fail to see how one can understand speech, or to speak, without being able to discern the proper tones?

Surely it's no worse than a Thai being unable to discern or produce non-Thai final consonants in English. (It's a struggle, but not impossible.)

[DavidHouston]

I've been learning Thai remotly for a couple of years now. Remotely means, I'm not staying in Thailand at the moment...

Actually, it's not that difficult, expect handling with tones. So, my question is: Has anybody a understandable, complete overview of the tone rules. I mean that all of my books scratches the surface of the rules more or less. Honestly, in most cases I have no idea what they are talking about!

Please help, thanks!

To say that learning Thai is not difficult, except for the tones, seems contradictory. If one doesn't know the tone rules, then it is not possible to read or understand the language, much less to write it. I also fail to see how one can understand speech, or to speak, without being able to discern the proper tones?

Context, context, context

[meadish_sweetball]

There are some videos put up on the web by what sounds like a foreigner, whose Thai pronunciation is fairly good (better than mine). He has up an instructional video of the tone rules that hit the nail on the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlw4NJdnNE

Now, if only I had access to this when I was learning

The written explanation and structure of the video are great, but the audio track would really benefit from a native speaker.

The vowel lengths and tones are quite good for a non-native speaker, but far from spot on; the irregularities will be confusing to beginners.

[kriswillems]

Here are the tone rules in a pdf file. It's only 1/2 page. This includes the definition of long and short vowels, life and dead syllables, a list of consonants that are pronounced as p, t or k when they are the final consonant (see use of colors) and a list of low, middle and high class consonants. It's really not that difficult.

tone4.pdf

Edited April 20, 2008 by kriswillems

[Richard W]

Here are the tone rules in a pdf file. It's only 1/2 page. This includes the definition of long and short vowels, life and dead syllables, a list of consonants that are pronounced as p, t or k when they are the final consonant (see use of colors) and a list of low, middle and high class consonants. It's really not that difficult.

You should have been bolder with your colouring. There are well established words ending in tho montho, e.g. ครุฑ 'garuda'.

I'd definitely have coloured in cho choe, cho ching and pho phueng as well, because it is confusing to suggest that finally they would not be pronounced /t/ or /p/. Likewise fo fa should have the same coding as fo fan.

The first three distributional gaps are in a way accidental rather than systematic - the consonants are rare between vowels in Sanskrit and Pali.

Given that Thai has รัฐ from Pali รัุฏฺฐ (There's a phinthu there, honest, guv.), I'm surprised it has วัจฉ์ and not วัฉ from Pali วัจฺฉ. The old spellings of the doublets คัจฉะ and เคจฉะ (does the latter truly have a falling tone on the first syllable?) actually do end in cho ching, but that is irrelevant for the chart.

[scyriacus]

don't worry! i'm living in thailand 9 years, speak, read and write thai, but still don't know everything about 'tone-rules' (and unavoidable exceptions). some words sound similar (mai, 5 different meanings, 3 of them very important, 'new', 'not' & '?' ), but are clear enough from their context (eg ? always at the end and rising tone, like we all do). others would be really dangerous, like glai = near and glai = far (despite listening thoroughly, i even can't hear a difference), but the clever thai people just don't use 'near', they say instead 'not far', so you know: "glai" = far, "mai glai" (not far) = near. it's that easy. the tone-rules for me were useless in speaking, useful in reading and only indispensible in writing. but that's a rather long way. btw: i am german and the tones are more easy for us than for english speakers. use the tips and tools provided by other users anyway, but don't worry too much......

ps: if you are not understood, you hardly be misunderstood!

Edited April 20, 2008 by scyriacus

[SWW]

I've been learning Thai remotly for a couple of years now. Remotely means, I'm not staying in Thailand at the moment...

Actually, it's not that difficult, expect handling with tones. So, my question is: Has anybody a understandable, complete overview of the tone rules. I mean that all of my books scratches the surface of the rules more or less. Honestly, in most cases I have no idea what they are talking about!

Please help, thanks!

To say that learning Thai is not difficult, except for the tones, seems contradictory. If one doesn't know the tone rules, then it is not possible to read or understand the language, much less to write it. I also fail to see how one can understand speech, or to speak, without being able to discern the proper tones?

Context, context, context

I was going to say exactly the same thing, because if Thai people could not understand their own language when spoken without tone (which of course they insist that they cannot), they would not have such a thriving pop industry - because the act of singing the words effectively all but removes all the tone from them.

Scott

[Rikker]

There are some videos put up on the web by what sounds like a foreigner, whose Thai pronunciation is fairly good (better than mine). He has up an instructional video of the tone rules that hit the nail on the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nlw4NJdnNE

Now, if only I had access to this when I was learning

The written explanation and structure of the video are great, but the audio track would really benefit from a native speaker.

The vowel lengths and tones are quite good for a non-native speaker, but far from spot on; the irregularities will be confusing to beginners.

I saw this video for the first time just now, and the pronunciation is quite poor. I don't mean to be overly critical, but viewers should not trust his pronunciation. When he is inserting Thai words into his English sentences, he gives them English intonation. He introduces the tone marks as ไม้เอ๋ก ไม้โถ ไม้ตรี๋, and ไม้จัทวา. But his pronunciation of these words is inconsistent throughout, and most of the time เอก is เอ็ก in his accent.

Other things to look out for:

• His pronunciation of สระออ with a clear r sound, i.e. อ in อ อ่าง just like an American says 'or' "bore by my" is his pronunciation of บ ใบไม้, with stress on the last syllable.
  
• He also isn't producing glottal stops in short dead vowels, e.g. กะ กิ, which is the "canonical" pronunciation for syllables like this in isolation. Lacking that glottal stop, a Thai will likely hear it as a long vowel. If you said กะว่าจะไปพรุ่งนี้ without glottal stops in กะ and จะ, it would be very poor pronunciation indeed.
  
• He's pronouncing สระอิ as IPA /i/ instead of IPA /ɪ/, i.e. คิด is more like "keet" for him, not "kit".
  
• His grasp of vowel length seems very poor, and he doesn't distinguish between ต and ท sounds (introducing ไม้ไต่คู้ as ไม้ไถ่คุ -- ironically with a glottal stop on the last syllable).
  

Moreover, he's misusing terminology. I don't know if he's following the usage in one or more books about learning Thai, or if this is his own meanings he's assigning. He groups ด บ in a category he calls "unvoiced" consonants (they are both "voiced stops" in phonetic terms), and then later confuses "unvoiced" with "unreleased". (A voiced stop, e.g. ด, can possibly be unreleased--unreleased is the word he wants here, meaning you don't "release" a puff of air. He could also benefit from learning the terms "aspirated" and "unaspirated".)

I have big issues with the way he presents the information, and overall think he's presenting some possibly confusing and misleading ideas about how to read tones. Mostly, though, his pronunciation damns the whole presentation, because his incomplete grasp of Thai phonology has undoubtedly affected how he has chosen to present the information, as well as his choice of words. As he disclaims in the video, only some of the words he presents are real words, but including words like ค่ะ are misleading because these are true phonological exceptions in Thai, that deserve special treatment. One should ideally use only clear, straightforward examples (and I would prefer real words) in an illustrative video like this, but he's inadvertently opened a can of worms for his viewers, which they likely won't realize until after months or years of poor pronunciation.

I really like the format, but the execution leaves far too much to be desired. Use with caution.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Rikker

[Rikker]

I am curious, however, to see if the OP found the video useful. (I've watched all five of that guy's videos now, and I think roughly the same thing about all of them).

[Tod Daniels]

Several quite a scathing reviews of something put on YouTube mostly to generate interest in a 'one horse town' language spoken in a country the size of North & South Dakota only. Never the less the points are probably valid; although I don’t speak clear enough thai to know nor care, to the degree the detractors obviously do. I could see the ‘outrage’ if this was a ‘for profit’ video, but it’s for fun.

In the video posters defense I had a thai friend listen to it. They said it was completely understandable and to quote them verbatim; “I tink man in wi-de-o sa-peak thai good as farang can sa-peak, is ca-lear and can un-de-stan ee-zz”. The previous quote was from an actual thai person, but in no way constitutes an endorsement of the aforementioned videos..

Surprisingly when thais actually try to understand a foreigner speaking thai to them, they are able to decipher extremely poorly spoken thai. Much like when I listen to the butchered, mangled, maligned and sadly mispronounced engrish here, more times than not I am able to discern the underlying meaning. Communication is about the exchange of ideas, not pronouncing like we are reading the evening news.

We can only wait with bated breath for the video series the critics will be posting on You Tube or in their blogs for no financial remuneration which will contain picture perfect pronunciations and better examples. Anything that can further our hunt for the ever elusive yet always sought after clear enunciation is a plus in my book.

[Rikker]

I gave what I feel like was a frank assessment, without any malice or hostility. Perhaps I came on too strong. It's a very slick video that I very much like the style of.

Asking random Thais to assess an accent is a difficult thing. Anyone who has come a long way with their Thai pronunciation will notice you're praised every step of the journey. Thais are well-meaning but extremely patronizing towards foreigners who speak Thai, since so few people learn it and most speak it poorly. They give lavish praise for minimal effort. Just wait until you understand when they then turn to their friend and say ฟังไม่รู้เรื่องว่ะ. On the flip side of that coin, I've had random Thais--strangers--take me to task for--yes--mispronouncing English loanwords, if they didn't have the proper Thai accent. They did it in an insulting way, and I was indignant at the time, but I've remembered that experience since, so I'm glad it happened.

Nowadays I try to judge my Thai (and improve it) based on my ability to communicate, like you say, and communication is best facilitated by following conventions. I'm not advocating pronouncing it like the evening news, because that's totally unnatural speech.

I rarely find myself in a position to have cause or need to critique others' Thai accents. Usually only when they specifically ask me to, which happens from time to time. In this case, I think an instructional video should exemplify conventional pronunciation (not necessarily "correct" pronunciation, the kind taught in classrooms but that no one uses in real life). I didn't say anything about his r's and l's and things that would have no bearing on his being understood by a native. But particularly when he is placing himself in a position as teacher, I think the critique is called for. Nothing against the creator at all. I'm all for building up more interest for Thai. But I don't think patronizing people is helpful.

So if anyone is offended by my frankness, I do apologize for that.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Rikker

[CSS]

I gave what I feel like was a frank assessment, without any malice or hostility. Perhaps I came on too strong. It's a very slick video that I very much like the style of.

Asking random Thais to assess an accent is a difficult thing. Anyone who has come a long way with their Thai pronunciation will notice you're praised every step of the journey. Thais are well-meaning but extremely patronizing towards foreigners who speak Thai, since so few people learn it and most speak it poorly. They give lavish praise for minimal effort. Just wait until you understand when they then turn to their friend and say ฟังไม่รู้เรื่องว่ะ. On the flip side of that coin, I've had random Thais--strangers--take me to task for--yes--mispronouncing English loanwords, if they didn't have the proper Thai accent. They did it in an insulting way, and I was indignant at the time, but I've remembered that experience since, so I'm glad it happened.

Nowadays I try to judge my Thai (and improve it) based on my ability to communicate, like you say, and communication is best facilitated by following conventions. I'm not advocating pronouncing it like the evening news, because that's totally unnatural speech.

I rarely find myself in a position to have cause or need to critique others' Thai accents. Usually only when they specifically ask me to, which happens from time to time. In this case, I think an instructional video should exemplify conventional pronunciation (not necessarily "correct" pronunciation, the kind taught in classrooms but that no one uses in real life). I didn't say anything about his r's and l's and things that would have no bearing on his being understood by a native. But particularly when he is placing himself in a position as teacher, I think the critique is called for. Nothing against the creator at all. I'm all for building up more interest for Thai. But I don't think patronizing people is helpful.

So if anyone is offended by my frankness, I do apologize for that.

I appreciated your critique. I would love to have the opportunity for you to listen to and critique my spoken Thai. I think it would be quite helpful, but as that's unlikely reading critiques like the one above does point out typical problems that can let me relook at my own pronunciation to make sure I'm not making any of those same mistakes. Once a pronunciation is learned it becomes habit and often we don't even realize that we are mispronouncing it. Thai native speakers around us will also get used to the common mispronunciations of their foreign friends and learn to understand them, thus the mistakes perpetuate. Thanks again for the critique.

[misterme]

Several quite a scathing reviews of something put on YouTube mostly to generate interest in a 'one horse town' language spoken in a country the size of North & South Dakota only.

The same could be said for Italy, and foreigners learning Italian outside of thier little country as well....

But since we're here in Thailand, let's assume is a language important to us.

[meadish_sweetball]

So if anyone is offended by my frankness, I do apologize for that.

Your critique really was 100% valid, and although scathing, probably a lot more helpful than what I wrote above.

I agree it would be a bad idea for a beginner to rely on that video, and I also noticed the typical US English 'list intonation' (where each item in a list except for the last is pronounced with what sounds like a Thai rising tone). Interestingly, an American student in my Thai class at university had this exact problem when counting in Thai, and never managed to lose it despite our teacher's best efforts to fix it, both by explaining theoretically what was happening, and by having him practice saying numbers in isolation without trying to think of them as a list.

But that being said, I thought of the idea and effort the person must have put in, and I did mostly like the visuals as well as the presentation.

[Tod Daniels]

I will admit perhaps I was also a little harsh in my knee jerk response. I do defer to your superior language acquisition skills, (and enjoy your blog immensely as well).

I will also agree with your comment that thais are overly patronizing to anyone who remotely attempts to speak thai no matter how butchered or poorly pronounced. If I had a baht for every time a thai said พูดภาษาไทยเก่ง I'd be a millionaire.

I concur the video would probably not be on someone's top 10 list for furthering their thai language skills. Never the less; I did like the presentation and transitions in the video though, and it must have taken quite some time to format.

I am far from the cunning-linguist I would like to be in thai, and while I rarely apologize for anything; in this instance I feel I should. Sorry.

"I'll be in my ready room; Number One you have the bridge.."

[Rikker]

Thanks, Tod, I appreciate that. We must ask ourselves, What would Gene Simmons do?

Seriously, though, I'm still สองจิตสองใจ about the videos. They're really very good stylistically, which deserves more praise than I gave, and obviously he's put at many hours into each one. He's neither getting paid for them nor claiming to be an expert. I don't teach Thai or anything, but if this were, say, a project done for a class by a student of Thai, it would very much deserve an A for effort.

But I also still stand by all my specific critiques, and its mistakes can be detrimental if perpetuated. The other videos have similar issues, but his pronunciation varies so it's is better in some places than others. (This inconsistency could be frustrating for viewers trying to mimic his examples, too.) If he found a native-speaking Lennon to his stylistic McCartney, we could have a real winner. Which is what Meadish said before I ever chimed in, and without coming off as a jerk in the process, to boot. Lesson learned.

Edited April 22, 2008 by Rikker

[Jay_Jay]

Rikker - just watched through the videos and think you've summed them up pretty well.

From listening to his pronunciation, looking at the 'samples' he's used and looking at the selection of words he's used in a bit of banter in the comments section on youtube would lead me to think that this guy hasn't actually lived in Thailand. The production on the other hand is great.

[freitag1]

Here are some more details and examples as well:

http://learn-thai-podcast.com/blog/learn-t...in-thai-lesson/

[meadish_sweetball]

The native speaker voice is good, as is the idea with a graphic display of the pitch curves of the tones. The high tone has not been marked out in the picture though.

The information underneath is unclear however. The terms used are misleading or inexact.

The biggest problem for us foreigners who learn Thai is that we are not used to phonetic languages. In many Asian languages a word that is spoken with a different pronunciation can have a different meaning. In this episode we focus on the five different tones that are used in the Thai language. As an example we use the word “mai”.

Try something like this instead:

Speakers of non-tonal languages (like most European languages) may find it challenging to learn a tonal language. Tonal languages are common in Asia, and are languages where the pitch of each word determines its meaning. These pitch variations are called 'tones' even though they are not constant tones like musical tones, but rather pitch curves, and relative to one's own vocal range. In this episode we focus on the five different tones that are used in the Thai language. As an example we use the syllable “mai”.

(1.) It is not very helpful to say that 'mai' is one word whose meaning changes with each tone, because it encourages an incorrect view of the language. ไม ไหม ใหม่ ไม่ and มั๊ย are different words, so using the word 'syllable' is more correct.

2.) Many foreigners have languages with a stronger correspondence between sound and spelling than Thai. Hence, their languages are 'phonetic' but they may still find it difficult to learn Thai.

3.) The term 'pronunciation' is inexact. The difference between 'hi' and 'pie' is also the pronunciation, as is the difference between 'rough' and 'hornbill'.)

[mangkorn]

Good on ya, meadish.

Every time I read, or hear a farang say "mai" is a word that is spoken with different pronunciations, it just drives me batty.

When you think about it, that's almost like saying "door," "store," "poor," "pour," "more," "for" and "whore" is a word that is spoken with different pronuncations...

[Bird on the Wire]

Every time I read, or hear a farang say "mai" is a word that is spoken with different pronunciations, it just drives me batty.

And here's me thinking you'd independently reached that state: just goes to show how wrong one can be.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Bird on the Wire

[mangkorn]

Troll under the Bridge.

[Hobgoblin]

I thought the videos were pretty good - things are explained clearly, and sure - the pronunciation is "off-key", but I would not expect a non-native to speak perfectly clear even if they are fluent. I have a French friend who speaks English fluently, yet he cannot shake that accent, and I understand every word that he says.

[jak2002003]

Hi. Hope you are doing better with your tones now!

I was having real difficulty with them for ages. I was learning from books and some CDs, but i found like you they did not really make it easy to understand.

I have a breakthrough when i started learing to read and write Thai. The letters have classes and tone marks and it was quite interesting and easier to learn. I really recomend that you attend a language school. You will learn thai much faster and you can ask the teachers any questions about tones and other things.

I tried a number of private tutors, but found they lacked experience. I found the best school was Pro Language for me. I can say its very good. You can get a private or group class and they are flexiable in their hours and times to study. They have very good and easy to understand course books.

Hope you enjoy learning your tones lol.