Money And Happiness

[siamamerican]

A lot of talk about how much money is needed to live in Thailand. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago, and found it interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/business...amp;oref=slogin

Article summary:

In 1974, Richard Easterlin, then an economist at the University of Pennsylvania, published a study in which he argued that economic growth didn’t necessarily lead to more satisfaction.

After the basic necessities are taken care of, people don't experience more happiness. They just reset the bar. Relative income — how much you make compared with others around you — mattered far more than absolute income, Mr. Easterlin wrote.

The media and academics have cited this study for decades, but last week the Brookings Institution in Washington, two young economists — from the University of Pennsylvania, as it happens — presented a rebuttal of the paradox. They came to the conclusion that income does matter and absolute income (measured globally ) seems to matter more than relative income.

I've always believed relative income had a larger impact on happiness than absolute income. As I've aged, my income has increased, but I haven't been aware of it having a major impact on my personal happiness. If my income had decreased relative to others in my age group, I would have noticed and probably wouldn't be as satisfied. I think it is my competitive nature and don't think I'm an anomaly.

In my opinion, both studies prove money does bring a certain amount of happiness. If you are relatively making less money than others or your absolute income is low, you are more likely to be unhappy. Living in Thailand doesn't increase your absolute income, but lowers the income bar. That is why many expats in LOS with little absolute wealth are happy. The expats that have a hard time understanding how others can live on so little are the expats with substantial absolute wealth and income.

I'm not sure which group (Relative vs. Absolute ) is happier in LOS. What I don't understand is why expats live in LOS that dislike the weather, people, ..., so they can mitigate their taxes, live in a beautiful home...

Edited April 19, 2008 by siamamerican

[wileycoyote]

Good Post !

Happiness is the important thing,not absolute income

Wiley Coyote

[RY12]

I agree there's something to the "relative income" argument- it's not that a person feels happier because they can gloat because everyone around them is poorer, rather you can appreciate what you have more if others around you have less. I certainly feel more grateful in LOS or cambodia.

On the other hand, for myself at least, I think a certain amount of absolute income is needed for happiness. For me, it's travelling money, I have to be able to travel around the world to feel like I'm not wasting my life. My one goal now is to make as much money as possible, because i'm still young and am tired of being poor. maybe when i get middle aged I'll start easing up, but I think all humans start out in life wanting to make lots of money because it (usually) equals a life full of more varied experiences (than if ur just sitting in a village). I know it's easy to refute this with some fanciful philophical remark on happiness, but it's the practical truth for most of us.

Edited April 19, 2008 by RY12

[Huey]

Agreed, its not about how much $$$ its about how close you are too achieving your goals and dreams. Many rich people still want more from life and more money to achieve bigger and better things. They want to reach their goals and doing so brings them happiness. I know thats how I feel, I'm not what I would consider rich but I will be one day, and I have hopes, dreams, and goals for each level of wealth up to around 8 or 9 Billion.

Its the journey that gives me the satisfaction.

[way2muchcoffee]

The problem with wealth is the limited resources of the planet. The acquisition of wealth requires a highly skewed distribution of these resources. For every 'wealthy' person there is a requirement of many many 'poor' people. Even with my limited means and wealth, I am partially responsible for the poverty of several others. I try not to think of this too often, but when I do I feel unhappy about it.

Edited April 19, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[RY12]

The problem with wealth is the limited resources of the planet. The acquisition of wealth requires a highly skewed distribution of these resources. For every 'wealthy' person there is a requirement of many many 'poor' people. Even with my limited means and wealth, I am partially responsible for the poverty of several others. I try not to think of this too often, but when I do I feel unhappy about it.

Hey, relax man! u've been listening to too many marxists!

[Khun Jean]

The problem with wealth is the limited resources of the planet. The acquisition of wealth requires a highly skewed distribution of these resources. For every 'wealthy' person there is a requirement of many many 'poor' people. Even with my limited means and wealth, I am partially responsible for the poverty of several others. I try not to think of this too often, but when I do I feel unhappy about it.

In my own country i paid for at least 10 people to be able to have a roof over their head and have some food.

1 me, 2 my wife, 3 my son, 4 my daughter, 5 some unknown individual who is not willing to work, 6 the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend of some unknown individual who is not willing to work, 7 some unknown individual who can not work and his family is to lazy to take care of, 8 the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend of some unknown individual who can not work and his family is to lazy to tace care of, 9 & 10 some kids of some unknown individual that either can't or won't work for taking care of his/her own and has to much free time on his/her hand to make kids because they are bored.

On top of that i paid dearly for health insurance that when needed is not there or very long waiting list, paid large amounts of tax for something like education which is a complete disaster, paid road tax and tax on fuel to see this NOT being used to improve the infrastructure, pay tax on my house and tax for energy and tax for waste treatment only to see the price of electricity rise more, the garbage collected only once every 14 days etc..

So the get to the point, i made decent money but it was spent on things i saw nothing in return for.

Cumulative the tax was around 85%. So for each 100 euro i made i saw 85 euro disappear to something i had absolutely no control over.

That is what made me unhappy.

Now i moved away from my own country i take care of only 4 people, and help out some others when i think they deserve it.

I paa little taxes and i take care of my own insurances. I set the goals and risks i take. Result is that i am much more happy because i can at least control what i do with the money i make.

If i buy and own something here at least there is no recurring bill every month or every year to 'punish' me for owning something.

To me happiness and money is measured in how much control i have over the money.

[Beardog]

One can be rich in wealth & be totally unfulfilled in life.

Better to be rich in spirit & have enough to pay your needs & help others less fortunate along the way if you can.

The barter system was a lot more user friendly-----although that would not work here in LOS to good.

[Neeranam]

One can be rich in wealth & be totally unfulfilled in life.

Better to be rich in spirit & have enough to pay your needs & help others less fortunate along the way if you can.

Good post = try telling my Chinese landlady that.

[tartempion]

Money spoils happiness

Worst invention of mankind.

RIP all killed for greed.

[cathyy]

I think my mother nailed it when she said that money may not buy happiness, but it can do a lot to alleviate misery.

[way2muchcoffee]

The problem with wealth is the limited resources of the planet. The acquisition of wealth requires a highly skewed distribution of these resources. For every 'wealthy' person there is a requirement of many many 'poor' people. Even with my limited means and wealth, I am partially responsible for the poverty of several others. I try not to think of this too often, but when I do I feel unhappy about it.

In my own country i paid for at least 10 people to be able to have a roof over their head and have some food.

1 me, 2 my wife, 3 my son, 4 my daughter, 5 some unknown individual who is not willing to work, 6 the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend of some unknown individual who is not willing to work, 7 some unknown individual who can not work and his family is to lazy to take care of, 8 the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend of some unknown individual who can not work and his family is to lazy to tace care of, 9 & 10 some kids of some unknown individual that either can't or won't work for taking care of his/her own and has to much free time on his/her hand to make kids because they are bored.

On top of that i paid dearly for health insurance that when needed is not there or very long waiting list, paid large amounts of tax for something like education which is a complete disaster, paid road tax and tax on fuel to see this NOT being used to improve the infrastructure, pay tax on my house and tax for energy and tax for waste treatment only to see the price of electricity rise more, the garbage collected only once every 14 days etc..

So the get to the point, i made decent money but it was spent on things i saw nothing in return for.

Cumulative the tax was around 85%. So for each 100 euro i made i saw 85 euro disappear to something i had absolutely no control over.

That is what made me unhappy.

Now i moved away from my own country i take care of only 4 people, and help out some others when i think they deserve it.

I paa little taxes and i take care of my own insurances. I set the goals and risks i take. Result is that i am much more happy because i can at least control what i do with the money i make.

If i buy and own something here at least there is no recurring bill every month or every year to 'punish' me for owning something.

To me happiness and money is measured in how much control i have over the money.

I'm not sure I understand. If you lived in a country that had an 85% tax then those non-working individuals surely would have been under some kind of government assistance social program and wouldn't need you to support them.

I understand your frustration however. Over the last few years I have provided limited support to over 14 people, not including myself or my wife. On the other hand, these people are much less fortunate than I am financially, and they truly needed the assistance at the times it was given.

Edited April 19, 2008 by way2muchcoffee

[hanibal7]

HEALTH NUMBER 1

HEALTH NUMBER 2

HEALTH NUMBER 3-10

THEN ENOUGH MONEY TO LIVE.

ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.I HAVE EVERYTHING I WANT

1 / HEALTH FOR THE 3 OF US

2/ AMAZING LONG TERM GF AND STEP SON

3/ ENOUGH MONEY FOR ME AND ENOUGH TO LEAVE MY SON IN UK.

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.

[PattayaParent]

I am paid less by my company than other expat workers in the same capacity. I could get a lot more money by moving to another company and doing exactly the same job.

BUT, I am happy because I have other advantages over the other expat workers in the same capacity.

I am on family status, I work 30% less hours than they do, I am working here in my adopted home of Pattaya and I am still paid a pretty good salary so I am happily looking forward to the next 3 years project that the company has just been awarded here.

Edited April 19, 2008 by PattayaParent

[Joe Walshe]

Enough is never enough, when it comes to money.

I think the trick is to be satisfied with what you have. That is not to say that one should not aspire to create wealth for yourself and others around you. It is important that people continue to grow and prosper so that society as a whole benefits. But while growing to be content with what you have now and not base your hopes on a happiness in the future when you have X amount of money.

[Jingthing]

My money philosophy is simple: if your money problems don't keep you up at night, you have enough. If not, hopefully you have enough for a sleeping pill.

[Joe Walshe]

My money philosophy is simple: if your money problems don't keep you up at night, you have enough. If not, hopefully you have enough for a sleeping pill.

Good one.

[howtoescape]

The government (UK) every day inextricibly links wealth with happiness, and this country has never been richer, so i cant understand why broken families are at record levels, we are the worst alcohol and drug abusers in the EU, we're the most violent etc etc.....

[Dakhar]

Agreed, its not about how much $$$ its about how close you are too achieving your goals and dreams. Many rich people still want more from life and more money to achieve bigger and better things. They want to reach their goals and doing so brings them happiness. I know thats how I feel, I'm not what I would consider rich but I will be one day, and I have hopes, dreams, and goals for each level of wealth up to around 8 or 9 Billion.

Its the journey that gives me the satisfaction.

I have to say I agree... but this does not make the above absolute. I think it is a personal matter. For me, when I started to earn more than needed, I wanted wanted to accomplish more & if that oppertunity was not available, I would leave the job. My last job in the states, I started earning a lot, and I requested a chance to buy into the company. (I was already loaning the company money) So when I was denied the oppertunity to become a partner.... I left. I was not a matter of money, more of a matter of I did not want to be an "employee" all my life. I wanted to be an owner....

So I left, I make fair money here, but I earned A LOT more in the US. It saddens me when I think about the fact I earn about half of what I did in the states. But I am able to save as much.... I have more than I need, and currently I am working on developing a sub company for the company I work for. I have yet to consider how much more money I should earn etc for the sub company. It is just the ability to grow something that gets me pumped.

That said, when I was poor.... life sucked greatly. We feared a flat tire, or new brakes for the car.... we just did not have enough money and we did all that we could to save money.

Fortunatley those days are over, and we have enough saved for a rainy decade or so.

[jitagon]

'Money doesn't buy you happiness, but it does take away the misery of being skint' - Michael Cain

[GuestHouse]

Money and Life Myth No 1 = Being Rich Makes You Happy.

Money and Life Myth No 2 = Poor But Happy

Happiness is something that some people are predisposed to and something that others can never attain - It has little or nothing to do with money.

As for this guilt thing about making money - Let's correct the biblical misquote - Money is not the root of all evil ''The Love of Money is the Root of all evil' - You are not evil because you make money, though the means by which you make money and what you choose to do with it may be something that are evil and something you ought to address.

Conversely - you are not a better person because you make less money than the other guy.

And for the Brit shift (home of the politics of spite and envy) - Relative income is important in happiness - The less time you spend fixated on moralizing about other people's incomes, the happier you will be [Take some time here to think of government campaigns against other people's pensions, those evil rich folk who fly long haul and a host of other 'spite and envy polices put out by Nu-Labour and lapped up by a willing public].

As for the research being quoted here - Our researcher might have saved himself a lot off effort if he had only watched 'The Treasure of the Sierra Mardre ....... with that great actor... what's his name?!

[torrenova]

Its not about money at all, it is about what money can do for you. After your basic needs are met and you move onto discretionary spending then your desires will dictate how much money you need and if you fall short of that amount, then you are not going to be satisfied.

Far more important is time and the decisions you make. Simply put, you cannot buy more time irrespective of how much money you have and often you cannot reverse decisions made either at all or within the time available. Thus, within limits, you can always earn more money and can never buy more time, then what you do with your time and the decisions you make have far more influence on your overall satisfaction than the amount of money you have at a given point in time.

When you work out what is really important, what you have and what has slipped you by, money becomes less relevant and the decisions you make and the time you have become far more important.

[zorro1]

I agree there's something to the "relative income" argument- it's not that a person feels happier because they can gloat because everyone around them is poorer, rather you can appreciate what you have more if others around you have less. I certainly feel more grateful in LOS or cambodia.

On the other hand, for myself at least, I think a certain amount of absolute income is needed for happiness. For me, it's travelling money, I have to be able to travel around the world to feel like I'm not wasting my life. My one goal now is to make as much money as possible, because i'm still young and am tired of being poor. maybe when i get middle aged I'll start easing up, but I think all humans start out in life wanting to make lots of money because it (usually) equals a life full of more varied experiences (than if ur just sitting in a village). I know it's easy to refute this with some fanciful philophical remark on happiness, but it's the practical truth for most of us.

Good post and probably applies to nearly everyone. I am in midlife and have scaled back my biz so I can live a semi retired life here and loving it but the interesting thing is i no longer crave extravagant 5 star restaurants or a room with a spa although i can afford it. Its a good cycle though and i wouldn't be happy with my current lifestyle in my early 30"s as it was all about flaunting it back then and no amount of money was considered enough.

Edited April 19, 2008 by zorro1

[Deke]

Once you have enough to feel reasonably secure in your life (a relative thing depending on your age and other circumstances), money is just the way that you score the game.

[torrenova]

Once you have enough to feel reasonably secure in your life (a relative thing depending on your age and other circumstances), money is just the way that you score the game.

Or so says Larry Ellison

[Deke]

Once you have enough to feel reasonably secure in your life (a relative thing depending on your age and other circumstances), money is just the way that you score the game.

Or so says Larry Ellison

True, don't you think?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I've been rich and I've been poor,rich is better, actually much better.

[Heng]

Money cannot buy happiness but it can (and has since the beginning of time) buy freedom. Whether it was in the time of slaves buying literally buying their freedom, or people buying their way out of their mortgage or any other kind of debt... just another type of slavery.

Try being happy without freedom.

[CROBKK]

I've always believed relative income had a larger impact on happiness than absolute income.

Agreed

Living in Thailand doesn't increase your absolute income, but lowers the income bar. That is why many expats in LOS with little absolute wealth are happy. The expats that have a hard time understanding how others can live on so little are the expats with substantial absolute wealth and income. Disagree. Think some of those expats are pleased that they can get labor cheap and can exploit some of these people.

I'm not sure which group (Relative vs. Absolute ) is happier in LOS. What I don't understand is why expats live in LOS that dislike the weather, people, ..., so they can mitigate their taxes, live in a beautiful home...

Those are the expats without the money. If they had money they would live in walled compounds insulated from the unwashed heathens and look upon the Thais as smiling subservient drones. They would also look down on those expats that have found a way to be happy living amongst the Thais. From what I have seen its all about adapting and coping with the local environment. Those that can, flourish and are content. Those that cannot not end up constipated nasty grumps ripping into folk because they either have a naughty tattoo or are married to an Isaan girl etc.

[GuestHouse]

naughty tattoo or are married to an Isaan girl etc

How and why did Tattoos and Isaan girls get into this thread... or is there a suggestion that happiness is somehow dependent upon relative life choices?