The High Cost Of Teaching Legally In Thailand

[Heng]

CaptainNemo seems to have managed to touch an awful lot of collective nerves in this thread.

Not quite sure of all the costs involved with teaching legally, but I know for any other business where my costs/overhead cuts too deeply into my target margins: I pull the plug on those operations no matter how much I "like" the product or market.

[PeaceBlondie]

Not quite sure of all the costs involved with teaching legally, but I know for any other business where my costs/overhead cuts too deeply into my target margins: I pull the plug on those operations no matter how much I "like" the product or market.

On topic! IJWT was more generous than I was, in defining the width of the topic. Heng gets my point: when the high cost of teaching legally in Thailand reaches its present rate, and all indicators show it will go even higher, it is time to stop teaching legally. Either start teaching illegally, or stop teaching in Thailand.

And while it would be on topic to guess what the government agencies here should do, why waste bandwidth discussing it? Farang and Filipino teachers (even Thai teachers) are at the mercy of the uncaring bureaucrats.

[withnail]

CaptainNemo seems to have managed to touch an awful lot of collective nerves in this thread.

And he's slightly missed the point as have the Thai government. He asked what is wrong with a country insisting that foreign (teaching) employees meet similar professional standards to what they would have to in their own country. Now, while I agree with this in principle, what most people fail to realise is that if you are talking about teaching English as a foreign language (which accounts for most of the teachers we have been discussing) TEFL certification is enough to get a job doing this anywhere else in the world (including our home countries). To say that an EFL teacher should have a BA.Ed or PGCE is like saying an optician needs the same training as a GP.

A 120 hour TEFL course covers exactly 120 hours more training for teaching English to Thai students than you would receive in a 3 or 4 year degree in education anywhere in the world. As part of my job I have observed people learning to teach English and some of them have had previous experience and qualifications from their home countries. Other than perhaps a higher level of confidence they have been no better than those people of reasonable intelligence without said qualifications.

I wish that everyone (especially the Thai government) would come to realise this and adjust their expectations/requirements accordingly.

Edited April 26, 2008 by withnail

[aussimike]

Lets face it there are English teacher who do not have the required piece of paper and who are just wonderful as teachers and there are those with a wad of qualification who really cannot interact with the students and who just make lousy teachers - having a degree does not a teacher make !!!!!!- there is also a different standard between the universities and lower levels as the two govt bodies dont follow the same rules -- MOE - MOUA -

the new regs are going to force a lot of teachers to look for alternative places to go and work like Vietnam and China where they are welcomed with open arms -

the international schools need farang teachers as most parents now want their children being taught by a white man and without being racist - i have heard this from the mouth of a thai parent -- native speaker from Aust, NZ Uk or the like - ONLY and even the school will specify this in the adverts

there is also the issue of teacher ratios - local to native speakers -- I was told recently that my school must employ more native speaking teachers for our international [program to enable us to have a new program approved - so I advertise and get a ton of applications from countries other than those listed above -- and the teachers from these countries have degrees or qualifications in just about every field but Education or English - so what to do -- employ them and give them a go - its getting to be a case of supply and demand - please let me find a teacher who can teach English - not just because they are NATIVE SPEAKERS -- some of them i cant even catch every thing they say because of the accents --- so how the hel_l are the students going to be able learn to speak correctly ????

[adjan jb]

I'm afraid this thread will be closed if you don't stay on topic. It's not about sexpats, dirty bacpackers, fake diplomas or Thailand's reputation.

I would like this thread to remain open. Some posts are worth reading.

[PeaceBlondie]

I'm afraid this thread will be closed if you don't stay on topic. It's not about sexpats, dirty bacpackers, fake diplomas or Thailand's reputation.

I would like this thread to remain open. Some posts are worth reading.

You are right, adjan jb (a regular poster here, who has taught French in northern Thailand). I would bet that this new thread has already won April's award for the TVisa topic with the most deleted posts. Still, we have allowed too many off-topic posts. This is not a discussion of how badly teachers smell, whom they fornicate, or whether a coal miner from Wales speaks better English than a lawyer from Arkansas who was an Oxford scholar.

Let's talk about legal versus illegal, and the effect the ever-increasing, absurd laws and their uneven interpretation make. Will this just increase the number of illegal teachers in-country, or will it drive out many good teachers?

[apex2000]

There always seems to be this comparison with Thailand, Japan and Korea.

Put it into perspective. In Korea you are going to be getting a salary of US$ 2,500 per month plus. That is 80,000 Baht a month. In Thailand they will pay you 30,000 Baht a month and refuse to pay for holidays which means you get a salary for 9 months of the year. That equates to 22,500 Baht a month.

Korea : 80,000 Baht a month

Thailand : 22,500 Baht a month

Who gets the most qualified teachers? You don't need to be a brain surgeon to work it out. Add on all the new costs in Thailand. Cultural course, new education course pay for your work permit. All in all you are going to have to spend another 60,000 Baht to earn your 22,500 Baht a month. Does that make financial sense?

You are quite correct in what you say about wage differentials between Thailand and Korea. However, what you fail to take into account is the higher cost of living in Korea. Therefore the difference is not as marked as you think. I have worked with a legal work permit in Thailand for 14 years. I also do some private teaching. My income is around 60,000 baht per month. So, I'm quite happy.

[chuck_s]

I just applied at a school out near where I live. After speaking to the director of English Department did ask me weather I did have the new Teaching License Certificate, and I told her as of now it is up for debate within the native teachers circle, she did agree with me. She pointed out that this was a new government thing and most Thai teachers say it is a good thing, but do not push it. I did present my degree (Business Administration with a minor in education), transcript, TEFL and a list of verifiable references both from other schools and character. She said, she consider an individual experience more at this point then the credentials, but did stress the need for a 4 year degree and at least a TEFL or CELTA, which most of the native speakers at her school do have.

At this point, Thailand is struggling to fill these positions and fast. They do pass these new requirements to help boost the credentials of its native English speaker teachers and they fail to a point the effect it has on the students as well. As many have pointed out, Thailand is considered a 3rd world nation and countries such as Laos, Cambodia, Taiwan, Vietnam and Japan see to be more attractive to teachers.

[wangsuda]

I personally believe that it is next to impossible to teach legally in Thailand RIGHT NOW. The reason for this is that no one in the government seems to know what the exact requirements are for a person to actually teach legally. What works one day for one person will not work the second day for another person. Let's face it, how can you be legal when no one knows what the requirements are? et's do a bit of unfair comparison here:

1. Teaching in California - I did a google search and hit the first site that came up. What I read was put out by the state of California to inform people of the different teaching careers available, and what is needed to qualify for those careers. It's all very straightforward. Teaching in California

2. Teaching in England - same as above, but a different website. Teaching in England

3. Teaching in Australia - same as above, but a different website.

In all three cases, the government of said sovereign body clearly spells out what it takes for ANYBODY to teach within their jurisdiction. Now, try to find the same information about Thailand. You can't. And, judging by the comments on various threads here and on other forums, NO ONE can find a straight answer as to what it takes to become legal to teach here. Based on my personal experience, it took me a year to get legal here, and that was under the "easy" rules of the Thaksin administration. Thankfully, I just have to renew. It seems that once you are in the system, you stay in the system. Even so, when my renewal comes up, I have to sign my name (and yes, I counted) 286 times on various pieces of paper that measure 3/8 of an inch PLUS submit a certificate that states I attended the cultural training. Renewing my California State teaching credential was much easier.

In short, for those who are lucky to get legal now, who knows what the future holds? Who knows what hoops will b put out? Take a course, take a test, have a degree . . . or not . . . depending on who you know and who you pay. I don't see people getting legal any time soon.

[PeaceBlondie]

wangsuda, in post #129, stays on topic and says it well. I am still considering teaching in Mexico for my Plan B. There, only Inmigracion decides who gets a visa and who can teach. One requirement is that everything be apostilled, such as your TEFL certificate and the diploma for your degree. That is about all. There are only about 33 "provincial offices" in the entire country, with fairly uniform requirements, considering that Mexico is a nearly-developed country, like Thailand.

wangs, you like Mexican food. How about a big move?

[Fundi]

<br />I hope you can help me. I possess a number of degrees including an University Diploma in Education as well as an Honours degree in Education. I have been teaching botany for many years at university level. Would I be able to teach English in Thailand with my qualifications, or would I be required to attain a qualification in the teaching of English? My diploma in education states that I am qualified to teach in the medium of English.<br /><br />What are the salaries that teachers can expect?

Hi Fundi, a lot will also depend on whether or not you are a native speaker. There are many highly qualified Fillipino and Indian teachers who do not get paid well because they do not meet this criteria.

Thanks so much for your help.

I am a native speaker - in fact I am British

[aussiestyle1983]

I'm afraid this topic has gone greatly off-topic. We don't allow discussion of the "degree-no degree" qualification debate here, as it tends to be inflammatory and pointless:

From the Teaching Subforum Guidelines:

8. Topics on the question of degrees/no degrees for teaching English or other subjects are currently restricted as they have been over-discussed and Thai government policy is not currently clear.

The fact is that the government, while making it more difficult, has continued to allow some teachers to teach conversational English in Thailand without college degrees.

The topic, in case anyone has forgotten, is what exactly the requirements *ARE* for teaching here- police check requirements, degree requirements, etc.- this is quite unclear, as PB the OP pointed out- not what the requirements SHOULD be, especially educationally. There is also some question about what teachers who cannot navigate the bureaucratic maze can do or should do (including, possibly, leaving).

Posters who fail to understand this will receive deletions and warnings after this point.

Thank you for your cooperation.

"S"

[mopenyang]

wangsuda, in post #129, stays on topic and says it well. I am still considering teaching in Mexico for my Plan B. There, only Inmigracion decides who gets a visa and who can teach. One requirement is that everything be apostilled, such as your TEFL certificate and the diploma for your degree. That is about all. There are only about 33 "provincial offices" in the entire country, with fairly uniform requirements, considering that Mexico is a nearly-developed country, like Thailand.

wangs, you like Mexican food. How about a big move?

It may or may not be quite that simple:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.ph...217&start=0

[wangsuda]

wangsuda, in post #129, stays on topic and says it well. I am still considering teaching in Mexico for my Plan B. There, only Inmigracion decides who gets a visa and who can teach. One requirement is that everything be apostilled, such as your TEFL certificate and the diploma for your degree. That is about all. There are only about 33 "provincial offices" in the entire country, with fairly uniform requirements, considering that Mexico is a nearly-developed country, like Thailand.

wangs, you like Mexican food. How about a big move?

Plan B is looking very good at the moment. Unfortunately, the salaries offered are not enough to support my family. I hate to boast, but . . . . I do quite well here, and my only complaint is not knowing exactly what is needed when I renew in June. If worst came to worst, I would probably teach in Korea and send money back here to my wife. While I would like to take here (and my family) with me, she has expressed an extreme unwillingness to leave Thailand. Looks like I'll have to ride it out here.

[PeaceBlondie]

Eleven more posts, most of them off topic or violating local forum rules, have been deleted.

mopenyang, I know that discussion from ESL Cafe-Mexico, and I thought my statement summed it up.

And on another forum, a very frustrated guy who stopped teaching in Thailand, only to be refused exit at the border because he encountered an officer who did not know the rules, said this: "I suggest people just stop doing any paperwork, visa runs, and forge the entry/exit stamps." A radical and impetuous statement - stupid, in fact - but illustrative of the insanity and impossibilities of teaching legally.

Thanks to stoffel45 for the horror stories and warning, although I think for each teacher who is deported, there are ten bar owners deported, and hundreds more who never get caught.

[Scott]

I think there are several problems with the new and 'improved' regulations. They are really quite impractical.

Most professional teachers who have a qualification in their home country are in too much demand, both in their home country and in other countries to voluntarily come to Thailand. At our school, the ones who do, have done so because of some other reason. Some reasons not so good and some because they have married a Thai person. I always consider these to be lucky catches.

If they want all these qualifications and tests and what not, then it has to be worthwhile and the salary here, in general, is not.

Another point is that whatever rules they decide to pass, they need to follow them and enforce them. The bar not only keeps getting higher--it keeps going sideways. Getting the visa is enforced one way in one country and a different way in another country. Once you have been accepted under a particular regulation, you should generally be allowed to stay without 'upgrading' your qualification.

Simply put:

The gov't needs to decide what exactly it wants and then it must pay for it accordingly (at an international scale).

I am a strong believer in qualifications--I don't care exactly what they are, but people need to have some qualification to do a job. In the case of teachers, I've seen the most productive teaching done by people with either (or both) a Bachelor's or a TEFL. I can't say that lacking one makes anyone worse.

[Scott]

PB: Please stay. The world of teaching in Thailand--and a few other forums--just won't be the same without you!

[heybruce]

Here's a link to some info on the Thai Culture course.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/6...quirements.html

Thank you for the link. I'm a retiree teaching legally in Thailand. I'm definitely not doing if for the money, but to be useful, meet Thai people, and because it's a pleasure teaching students who want to learn (not all of my students qualify, but more than half do). However as soon as these new rules are enforced I will either quit teaching or do it in another country.

[PeaceBlondie]

PB: Please stay. The world of teaching in Thailand--and a few other forums--just won't be the same without you!

Thanks, Scott. Oh, you mean the Gay Forum! I feared you knew my other niks on other teaching forums!

Yes, it would be helpful if the government of Thailand governed farang teachers sensibly. I can only work here illegally, it seems.

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm beginning to doubt the wisdom of leaving this thread open. This is NOT a thread in which to discuss what happens to teachers who teach illegally, or to discuss what qualifications SHOULD be (even to defend a liberal attitude towards them). I'm going to clean up one more time; if I have to do it again this thread is closed, and those who force me to close it will get at least a week's suspension each.

"S"

[Ijustwannateach]

This thread can't seem to stay on topic; it's not our regular members' fault, but rather a number of trolls that have unfortunately come in. Thread closed.