Protests Against Mega-sized Malls

[Johpa]

Let the market do what it will (because it probably will anyway).

That is cowboy capitalism, the form of capitalism specifically championed in the US, and it is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams.

[Heng]

Let the market do what it will (because it probably will anyway).

That is cowboy capitalism, the form of capitalism specifically championed in the US, and it is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams.

Not sure what you're saying but it sounds awfully communist.

[jumnien]

It seems to me a cowboy would be much more comfortable in a local wet market than in a mega-mall.

[Plus]

Mega-stores is the natural answer to the emerging suburban class, people who go shopping once a week and fill boots of their cars to the brink. Small groceries will never be able to satisfy them.

Surely any mom and pop shop in the walking distance will feel the effect, but they are not meant to be walked into. Carrefour Minburi doesn't even have an entrance in the typical sense, you have to go through the car park.

[Heng]

That's not to say that pedestrians aren't welcome. You'll notice that they "bus" customers in from nearby areas. There are plenty of shoppers that lug their groceries onto the local minivan/bus system as well.

Edited May 5, 2008 by Heng

[Johpa]

Let the market do what it will (because it probably will anyway).

That is cowboy capitalism, the form of capitalism specifically championed in the US, and it is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams.

Not sure what you're saying but it sounds awfully communist.

But Heng, if you read Marx you will understand that all good communists are necessarily capitalists at heart. Only Lenin et al foolishly thought one could lead a feudal society into a communistic society whilst bypassing capitalism. As far as alternatives to the cowboy capitalism of the US, other flavors might include capitalism with a dose of socialism as practiced in much of Europe or the State guided capitalism based upon the thoughts of Singapore's former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and now the leading form of capitalism being promoted throughout Asia. But as a diehard Star Trek fan, yes I am a utopian hopeful of some sort of communistic future many generations down the road.

So Heng, live long and prosper!

[Heng]

Let the market do what it will (because it probably will anyway).

That is cowboy capitalism, the form of capitalism specifically championed in the US, and it is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams.

Not sure what you're saying but it sounds awfully communist.

But Heng, if you read Marx you will understand that all good communists are necessarily capitalists at heart. Only Lenin et al foolishly thought one could lead a feudal society into a communistic society whilst bypassing capitalism. As far as alternatives to the cowboy capitalism of the US, other flavors might include capitalism with a dose of socialism as practiced in much of Europe or the State guided capitalism based upon the thoughts of Singapore's former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and now the leading form of capitalism being promoted throughout Asia. But as a diehard Star Trek fan, yes I am a utopian hopeful of some sort of communistic future many generations down the road.

So Heng, live long and prosper!

If we can one day replicate food from energy (and have an endless supply of energy), I'd be all for it.

This cowboy thinks we should let this philly run a bit before we get the lasso out.

Incidentally, as you might have guessed, I'm a big fan of the Singapore system, although our demographics here probably couldn't even install the program much less run it for significant amount of time without crashing. At best, we might be able to get a passable hybrid system up and running like the one they have going in Malaysia.

[lannarebirth]

Let the market do what it will (because it probably will anyway).

That is cowboy capitalism, the form of capitalism specifically championed in the US, and it is slowly beginning to come apart at the seams.

Not sure what you're saying but it sounds awfully communist.

But Heng, if you read Marx you will understand that all good communists are necessarily capitalists at heart. Only Lenin et al foolishly thought one could lead a feudal society into a communistic society whilst bypassing capitalism. As far as alternatives to the cowboy capitalism of the US, other flavors might include capitalism with a dose of socialism as practiced in much of Europe or the State guided capitalism based upon the thoughts of Singapore's former Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and now the leading form of capitalism being promoted throughout Asia. But as a diehard Star Trek fan, yes I am a utopian hopeful of some sort of communistic future many generations down the road.

So Heng, live long and prosper!

I'm not sure it will be a utopia, but I don't think there's any doubt that there will be global communism in the future. Gonna take a generation or three to get everyone I'm the same page though I think.

[thaigene2]

Sorry can't be bothered to read all the posts. If other's have posted truths above then disreagrd this.

My view (IMHO):

1. 7-11 is the real culprit but NO ONE talks about them

2. What a joke to talk about some hyper market like Big C or Tesco

3. Whre is TOPS and CENTRAL in all this? Isn't the TOPS at the end of my soi attacking the local thai-chin retailer along with the TWO 7-11?

NO, STUPID ME, IT'S THE 'TESCO'!!!

[Plus]

In another thread I was arguing that recent lawsuits are not undeserved, though Tesco obviously screwed up with making billion baht demands. Had they asked for one baht they'd have people listen to their side of the story. On the other hand they need to stop propaganda campaign, one baht claim is not a deterrent.

Journos know they've been publishing rubbish on someone else's behalf, it's not about freedoms or ethics.

>>>>

I think there are far more people at traditional shopping malls like Fashion Island or Future Rangsit than at Tesco/Carrefour. Suburbians need good food and enterntainment and hair saloons to go with their shopping, most Tesco's don't even have basic things like Mcdonalds. They appeal to the lower end of the population, including mom and pops stocking their groceries on the cheap and pissing off traditional suppliers.

Upcountry it's a bit different - they don't have shopping malls to begin with, so they build ones around Tescos. Big C, of course, is part of the Central Group, they build their "centrals" around Big C and don't even mention the name anymore.

[steveromagnino]

Sorry can't be bothered to read all the posts. If other's have posted truths above then disreagrd this.

My view (IMHO):

1. 7-11 is the real culprit but NO ONE talks about them

2. What a joke to talk about some hyper market like Big C or Tesco

3. Whre is TOPS and CENTRAL in all this? Isn't the TOPS at the end of my soi attacking the local thai-chin retailer along with the TWO 7-11?

NO, STUPID ME, IT'S THE 'TESCO'!!!

Like I've said many times, CP was a large backer of TRT and also of course is the franchisor and also outright owner of many 7:11 stores....they created the whole mom pop store rubbish to talk up the regulation of the by then all foreign owned hypermarkets, while leaving themselves free reign to expand like crazy - yet another TRT mess dressed in nationalistic furvor.

Right now, a lot of wet markets worry about the hyper markets and so called mega malls, although Central/The Mall/etc have been in the Thai market for any years and really don't share much in common with a good wet market. This is just another ploy I am sure created by PPP to create a bit of nationalistic pride and blame game among the working classes.

A well run wet market or produce shop can easily beat the pants off a supermarket; the supermarkets have never been able to match the prices of good wet markets and produce shops in countries like New Zealand when I was there, they do great selections of shopping and whatever but if you want better quality and lower price then a well run wet market is simply a better option; they are specialists in what they do.

But of course...there are a lot of badly run wet markets....and these are all PPP voters as they meet lots of people every day....same as the taxi drivers.

Lots of noise and it will all be gone soon enough with 7:11 etc continuing their push to drive a few mom and pops out of business.

[clausewitz]

Where are the mega-markets in shopping malls? I've been to Paragon, Emporium, Central Chidlom, etc. and all of them have tiny little fresh food sections that really aren't much competition to the wet markets.

Clearly the sun has not yet risen, did you miss the, dare I say, near gargantuan food supermarkets in Paragon and Emporium? Central Chidlom by the way is a retail department store! Best you look again my friend because the one in Paragon is the envy of many western countries.

ROFL. You mean the tiny supermarket on the 5th or 6th floor?

Edited May 6, 2008 by clausewitz

[himachal]

It seems to me that the demands, perceived need for and appetite by farangs for "more and more of what I can get back home" is responsible for a good part of the trend to build more superstores complete with mega markets and much of the demand for this is being met by British (tesco) and the French (Big C & Carrefour) conglomerates, not Thai's.

Rubbish!

These superstores are being set up for Thais who make up the majority of shoppers.

The foreigner population is far, far too small to even come into consideration when one of these companies decides to open a mega-store.

Most of the fruit and vegetables is Thai grown, anyway.

Furthermore, I think you'll find that the majority stake-holder in Tesco-lotus is a Thai company (CP I think).

Quite so. Not to mention the fact that 'moms and pops' do the shopping for their stores at Lotus, Big C, Carrefour and Macro anyway!

[Old Man River]

Sorry can't be bothered to read all the posts. If other's have posted truths above then disreagrd this.

My view (IMHO):

1. 7-11 is the real culprit but NO ONE talks about them

2. What a joke to talk about some hyper market like Big C or Tesco

3. Whre is TOPS and CENTRAL in all this? Isn't the TOPS at the end of my soi attacking the local thai-chin retailer along with the TWO 7-11?

NO, STUPID ME, IT'S THE 'TESCO'!!!

Like I've said many times, CP was a large backer of TRT and also of course is the franchisor and also outright owner of many 7:11 stores....they created the whole mom pop store rubbish to talk up the regulation of the by then all foreign owned hypermarkets, while leaving themselves free reign to expand like crazy - yet another TRT mess dressed in nationalistic furvor.

There is no question the chains gain (CP - 7/11, the Japanese - Siam Family Mart, etc.), but anti modern trade rhetoric has been strongly supported by Thailand's traditional wholesale network and there are thousands of them all over the country. These are the small businesses that often buy on credit, load up their pickups with food and other items, and travel from mom and pop to mom and pop stores selling their wares. Now, the mom and pops bypass them and go directly to the modern trade, buying cheaper. This has made it easy for special interest groups to build up support against the modern trade.

[jumnien]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

[Old Man River]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

This isn't a racist issue. It is about jobs.

Personally, I believe in free markets and open competition, but that is for another day.

[jumnien]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

This isn't a racist issue. It is about jobs.

Personally, I believe in free markets and open competition, but that is for another day.

Hey, I'm with you. If mega-malls are thriving, let 'em thrive. To conspire to force folks to buy expensive goods in little dirty shops is ludicrous.

[Thai at Heart]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

This isn't a racist issue. It is about jobs.

Personally, I believe in free markets and open competition, but that is for another day.

There is a very inefficient and uncompetitive distribution network across the nation in the hands of very few people that is definitely under threat from these slick multinationals.

There are so many middle men involved in getting the products onto the shelves of the mom and pop shops and they all have to get paid.

[steveromagnino]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

so just to be clear, you believe that the families who own the mega malls, like the Central family for instance, are not Thai-Chinese business owners then???

Love all the farang anti Thai-Chinese tirades on TV.

Anyhow....more importantly Oldmanriver

Yes I agree with your point and hadn't thought about it to that level. However, just regarding the Thai retailers assocation, it used to be headed up by a rep from 7:11 and was AFAIK located in one of the CP buildings. The link was pretty strongly back to what CP does at least 5 years ago, I assume that is still the case.

[jumnien]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

so just to be clear, you believe that the families who own the mega malls, like the Central family for instance, are not Thai-Chinese business owners then???

Love all the farang anti Thai-Chinese tirades on TV.

Anyhow....more importantly Oldmanriver

Yes I agree with your point and hadn't thought about it to that level. However, just regarding the Thai retailers assocation, it used to be headed up by a rep from 7:11 and was AFAIK located in one of the CP buildings. The link was pretty strongly back to what CP does at least 5 years ago, I assume that is still the case.

Just to be clear, I am saying that the hundreds of thousands of relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores are primarily of non-Thai-Chinese ancestry.

[Heng]

It all comes down to whether one supports the relatively wealthy tens of thousands of Thai-Chinese business owners or the tens of thousands or more relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores.

so just to be clear, you believe that the families who own the mega malls, like the Central family for instance, are not Thai-Chinese business owners then???

Love all the farang anti Thai-Chinese tirades on TV.

Anyhow....more importantly Oldmanriver

Yes I agree with your point and hadn't thought about it to that level. However, just regarding the Thai retailers assocation, it used to be headed up by a rep from 7:11 and was AFAIK located in one of the CP buildings. The link was pretty strongly back to what CP does at least 5 years ago, I assume that is still the case.

Just to be clear, I am saying that the hundreds of thousands of relatively young monthly paycheck earners at large mega-stores are primarily of non-Thai-Chinese ancestry.

Just to be clear, when these non-Thai Chinese are employed by Big C, Carrefour, etc.... folks are supporting young paycheck earners. But when they work for the Mall Group, Central, CP, etc. they are being exploited. Nevermind that the wages paid are pretty much all the same.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Heng

[Plus]

Why?

Thai Chinese don't get paychecks?

[Heng]

Of course they do. I'm talking about the non-Thai Chinese working for Thai Chinese companies. They are being exploited. But if they work for Carrefour, Big-C, etc... they aren't. They instantly are transformed into young earners.

Mostly because of hypocrisy.

[jumnien]

I think you're all taking this Thai-Chinese business too seriously! I think I'll go back to Starbucks and read the Bangkok Post!

[Old Man River]

I think you're all taking this Thai-Chinese business too seriously! I think I'll go back to Starbucks and read the Bangkok Post!

Given you started discussing the Thai Chinese in the first place, I think that is the right thing for you to do.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Old Man River

[Old Man River]

Yes I agree with your point and hadn't thought about it to that level. However, just regarding the Thai retailers assocation, it used to be headed up by a rep from 7:11 and was AFAIK located in one of the CP buildings. The link was pretty strongly back to what CP does at least 5 years ago, I assume that is still the case.

There is no question that the CP group opposes the modern trade's expansion as do the owner's of the other chains (Thai and foreign alike). Still, government officials always seem to miss the trade off whereby the modern trade employs a great number of people, pays a lot of taxes and donates huge sums to the communities were they are located. They missed this in the US and they are missing it here as well.

[steveromagnino]

Yes I agree with your point and hadn't thought about it to that level. However, just regarding the Thai retailers assocation, it used to be headed up by a rep from 7:11 and was AFAIK located in one of the CP buildings. The link was pretty strongly back to what CP does at least 5 years ago, I assume that is still the case.

There is no question that the CP group opposes the modern trade's expansion as do the owner's of the other chains (Thai and foreign alike). Still, government officials always seem to miss the trade off whereby the modern trade employs a great number of people, pays a lot of taxes and donates huge sums to the communities were they are located. They missed this in the US and they are missing it here as well.

CP have invested a lot in TRT and PPP, keeping the market themselves is their megapayday; has nothing to do with mom and pop stores.

I totally agree with your tradeoff point BTW.

As for Sunrise07's tirade about Thai Chinese business people..... a wise man once said better to have people think you are an idiot rather than open your mouth and confirm it.

[jumnien]

Your beautiful, it's true! Go, Steverino