Any Condominium Owners In Cm?

[Sumarokov]

In a topic I started on the Real Estate forum, someone suggested that the only places where farang are allowed to own condos in their own name, going by the 49% in a block rule, was Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Hua Hin.

Is there anyone here who has managed to buy a condo in their own name in Chiang Mai?

[Rasseru]

Many farang buy and own condos in Chiangmai in their own name.

[Contractor]

Yes, there is an established farang condo market here. You can deal through a real estate agent, or directly with the condo management.

I am told the 49% rule is floor space occupied of the whole building, not population.

Good luck

[Sumarokov]

Yes, there is an established farang condo market here. You can deal through a real estate agent, or directly with the condo management. I am told the 49% rule is floor space occupied of the whole building, not population. Good luck

Thanks, that is what I thought, so I was surprised by this claim - especially given that farang do buy and all the big, reputable agencies advertise to foreigners. I wrote to a law firm asking for confirmation.

[briley]

Some condo buildings in the places named could have more than 49% non-Thai ownership - think that rule is now cancelled with the new act number 4?

You can buy up to 49% of the area of that is for sale - excluding common area. The rule is non-Thais must have less than 50% of the votes/ownership (these are the same) in the condo. As common area does not have a vote that part of the area does not count.

to quote the law:

"SECTION 19 bis Aliens or juristic persons stated in Section 19 may only have ownership in a condominium unit or units that does not exceed forty-nine percent of the total space of all units in that condominium at the time the condominium was registered under Section 6."

[Sumarokov]

Some condo buildings in the places named could have more than 49% non-Thai ownership - think that rule is now cancelled with the new act number 4?."[/i]

Think that's what it must have been. At the end of the day, if the deal is all stamped and passed, the main thing is having the keys in my own hand! I am not planning to resell or upgrade once I buy.

[Greenside]

Buying's the easy bit. Dealing with unresponsive building management can be very frustrating, however. It's truly staggering to realize how many owners close up and leave their places for years on end and many of the ones who are either resident or let them out don't seem to have any inclination to safeguard their investment by ensuring their building is maintained in even the simplest of ways and of course if they're Thai they won't consider complaining to the management. I'm actually having to canvas the other residents on my floor to chip in to get the halls repainted and the lights fixed.

Slightly OT but maybe it will reach the right readers: I'm in the middle of trying to get a Yellow Book (Bahn Tabien See Luen) so that I can avoid going broke getting the UK Consulate to issue meaningless bits of paper saying I live in Chiang Mai, since Immigration stopped issuing certificates of residence. So far I've been shunted to three different departments, ending up with a lady who, having examined my chanote, incoming money certificate, monthly utilities receipt from the building, and a copy of every page of my passport, helpfully told me I needed a certificate of residence from Immigration. I only just managed to keep smiling. She verified my assertion that they no longer exist and I'm now waiting for her manager to come back from holiday next week.

I've read on the housing forum that a Yellow Book is akin to the Holy Grail of things-that-get-officials-to-say-"Yes" in Thailand. If I get one, I'll let you know how my driving license renewal goes....

[briley]

Greenside - Do keep us informed of your attempt to get a yellow book. I tried and gave up. Basically told it was too difficult. But some people I believe manage ............

[distortedlink]

I wrote the following in another thread some time ago, but is still useful information:

Anyone seriously considering purchasing leasehold for a condo should think again.

For developers the big bucks are to be made from their estate property management subsidiaries, which in the long term is more lucrative than the actual selling of the units. Residential and commercial Estate property management is big business.

Many of these companies are run and owned by foreigners. I can remember one event that happened 20 years ago. An American and a Japanese man both were partners as developers and estate mangement directors for a block of condos in Phuket. There was a dispute between them and the Japanese partner took out a contract killing of the American.

Once in, the business becomes the old boys network. They collect the service changes gaining huge profits under the guise of administrative and professional fees, which forms as part of the service charge. The company directors is paid commissions from insurance companies, contractors and gardening companies for being chosen to complete any works or to block insure the estate, plus they often use their own contractors working for companies specially created by the Management company that have a ready made clientele (the residents).

The Management company according to the terms & conditions imposed by most leases can serve lump sum extra payment demands for any amounts to residents for repairs or refurbishing that they claim is necessary and essential work. The company directors and their workers usually give themselves annual inflationary or above cost of service increases that is obtained from yearly increases in service charges to lease holders.

For those who purchase a condo for investment purposes and are renting out their unit to tenants, may be contravening the terms of the lease and some clauses in the block insurance policy, meaning that in the event of a fire or disaster damaging or destroying the unit, may not be able to claim with the insurers and the management company.

What this all means is that, no one can actually own a Condo, not the freehold anyway. Conditions of Residency is laid out by the clauses of the lease that are strictly imposed by the Managemnt company and the freeholders who could either be the Management Company or some other company or institution.

[Sumarokov]

Thanks for bringing up these VERY valid points, because I hadn't considered them - lack of property maintenance or it being used as a form of legal blackmail. Are all blocks privately owned - I mean, if you buy a condo on the secondary market, do you have to still effectively live under the thumb of a developer? Are there no blocks run by the state?

[distortedlink]

Thanks for bringing up these VERY valid points, because I hadn't considered them - lack of property maintenance or it being used as a form of legal blackmail. Are all blocks privately owned - I mean, if you buy a condo on the secondary market, do you have to still effectively live under the thumb of a developer? Are there no blocks run by the state?

Leaseholders are normally imposed by the terms of the lease to pay service changes to the Estate management company for communal area maintenance, repairs, block insurance coverage, the Management Company's administrative fees, plus extras for a sinking fund.

The directors of the Management Company are the juristic persons responsible for imposing the terms of the lease and ensuring leaseholders pay their management fees.

Their are 2 ways that an estate management company can be formed. Firstly turn it over to the residents themselves (a company limited by guarantee) or use an outside management company (a company limited by shares).

The problem is that many property developers are also the owners of the management company that they create to run the estate. So in fact the juristic persons can be the Management company belonging to the actual developers that built and sold the estate in the first place, meaning they are only answerable for any breaches of contract or misleading advertising to themselves.

If a condo is bought on the secondary market, the purchaser of the period leasehold just takes over whatever time period is left on the lease from when the property was first built and falls under the same clauses and imposed conditions. For example, if the lease were for a period of 90 years when the property was built and is later sold after 15 years, the new leaseholder would have 75 years left on the lease.

It is possible that the freehold could be owned by the state, but probably indirectly, such as by a government official, not to be compared with local authority housing in the United States or council housing in the UK, so there is no benefits to the leaseholder, whoever owns the freehold.

Although many Farangs believe that they can own residential property in Thailand with a Condominium, the fact is that they are only a semblance of full actual ownership because the freeholders that under Thai law must have a majority directorship of Thai citizens that own the land.

[briley]

The owners of the condo units own the Condo, in equal share that should now be based on the area each person owns.

They appoint the juristic manager, be it a person (paid or unpaid) or a company.

If the owners do not like the manager they can get rid of the manager, within the law. That does not mean it is easy to get rid of a management group, there are plenty of tricks for clinging on to power but it is possible.

What I say has nothing to do with leasehold - as I do not know how that comes into ownership of condos. In my (limited) experience I've not meet any Condo's where the owners have a time limited lease, but my experience is Chiang Mai and it does sound as thought there are less ferocious sharks here than in other places.

[SamSipEt]

Do check what the maintenance monthly charge is and what it covers. Look in the stair ways to see if they are kept clean, have a close look at the outside of the building – is it in good repair. A thread some time ago mentioned that some of the façade of Hillside 4 had fallen off and not been replaced! When was the building last repainted and how was that paid for? Some buildings will cover that as part of the monthly charge others will levy an additional bill for such large items.

If you want to be awkward (and why not if you are thinking of buying) you could ask when the fire system was last tested, when was the last annual general meeting of the co-owners and ask if you can see a copy of the minutes. Is there a co-owners committee? If so see if you can meet and talk to someone on the committee to see what current issues they have on the agenda.

There will always be some co-owners who are not paying the maintenance charge so how many in the building you are looking at are not paying? Look at the Embassy condo on the river, nice building, reasonable location but it looks like minimal maintenance is done probably due to lack of income.

Distrotedlink has a lot of doom and gloom in his posts and they are worth reading and absorbing but in my opinion his concerns are exaggerated and it may be that he has had a bad experience in the condo market.

If you do proceed I would suggest slowly slowly and don’t be shy to ask lots of questions.

Good luck!

[Sumarokov]

Thanks for all the advice. I agree with all the points, especially the state of the stairs being as important as the view or do the hot and cold taps work inside the apartment.

I suppose the 49% max foreign ownership might well be a plus - if it were a higher %age of foreigners, the owner might be more inclined to use it as a cash cow to extort more and more money for "maintenance" (as in sheltered housing for the elderly in Western countries).

About ownership, the fact that freehold only gives you ownership of the "box", i.e. inside the four walls of your own unit, does not really bother me too much. In my experience, that is the general rule across the world.

[SamSipEt]

Just another couple of thoughts triggered by the other thread about the cost of city water....

What is the price for a cubic meter of water, a unit of electricity and the availability of other services e.g. cable TV, ADSL etc in the building?

Yeah I know - lots of questions and no answers - sorry about that

[Greenside]

Just another couple of thoughts triggered by the other thread about the cost of city water....

What is the price for a cubic meter of water, a unit of electricity and the availability of other services e.g. cable TV, ADSL etc in the building?

Yeah I know - lots of questions and no answers - sorry about that

I was in a thread a while back when I was buying my condo and if you care to look there's a list of almost everything we could think of to check up on when considering a purchase. It's overkill but serves as a useful place to start. My building has just informed me that I have to get my own electricity meter and deal with the power supplier directly the cost is quite high (about three weeks' rent) so I shall have to load the units to the tenant but they will still work out cheaper that the 7 baht previously paid.

[Sumarokov]

That thread is a v. good source of boxes to tick. I don't see why you shouldn't ask as many questions as you like when you are shelling out all that cash.

All the condo hassles are making me wonder whether or not just to go for the 30 + 30 years rule and buy a lease on a house. What I really want is my own small garden, a bit of lawn and some flowers! I do not see whatever I end up buying as an investment: if it pays for itself over my lifetime, then that is enough for me.

The only problem with the 30 + 30 years rule is that I would end up celebrating my 100th birthday by getting turfed out of my own property, nice!

[bobbin]

Let me throw my 2 baht in.

distortedlink, unless I'm completely missing his point, is guilty of either distorted information or distorted logic.

I have heard there are leasehold condos in Bangkok but am not aware of any here in Pattaya where I own a condo as do many friends. Your original question was regarding the 49% rule and has been accurately answered.

Why distorted replied in a detailed response about something completely different I don't know but suspect he belongs to the "never buy in Thailand" camp.

Ownership in freehold is ownership, not a "lease". Subject to the fact we are talking about condominiums, so only percentage ownership of common areas. You own your own unit.

[neilrob]

From reading his two posts, I suspect that distortedlink is referring to "leasehold" because he/she does not understand that "condominium" is the name of a type of ownership. Owning a flat as a condominium is comparatively rare in England, where DL apparently comes from. Instead, most flats are owned on very long term leases, ie. leasehold, not condominium freehold as is common here or in the US, for example.

[SamSipEt]

That thread is a v. good source of boxes to tick. I don't see why you shouldn't ask as many questions as you like when you are shelling out all that cash.

All the condo hassles are making me wonder whether or not just to go for the 30 + 30 years rule and buy a lease on a house. What I really want is my own small garden, a bit of lawn and some flowers! I do not see whatever I end up buying as an investment: if it pays for itself over my lifetime, then that is enough for me.

The only problem with the 30 + 30 years rule is that I would end up celebrating my 100th birthday by getting turfed out of my own property, nice!

Ahhh another can of worms

Moobaans can have similar problems to condos in that the moobaan management are responsible for security, cleaning of common ares and general maintenance e.g. change the light bulbs for the road lights. If you look at a moobaan I suggest that you only those that have a reasonable number of inhabited properties because then, hopefully, there is enough money coming in on a regular basis to pay for the bits mentioned.

I've heard that the first 30 years lease is water tight but the renewal is not as certain. However, that hasn't stopped me going down this road Get a good lawyer and write into the lease agreement things that protect your interest in he property e.g. if the law changes you are allowed to purchase the land - as always good legal advice is crucial.

If you get evicted on 100th birthday then well done for lasting that long

[Contractor]

From reading his two posts, I suspect that distortedlink is referring to "leasehold" because he/she does not understand that "condominium" is the name of a type of ownership. Owning a flat as a condominium is comparatively rare in England, where DL apparently comes from. Instead, most flats are owned on very long term leases, ie. leasehold, not condominium freehold as is common here or in the US, for example.

I agree. A leasehold flat is not the same as a condominium.

It is true to say that people have reported some negative experiences with block management and maintenance, but that is not universal. There are well run condos in Chiang Mai. The secret is to ask about.

[Sumarokov]

The way I see it, at least with a condo these management and maintenance hassles are, ultimately, not something that can't be solved by throwing money at it. Whereas with land you are on trickier legal ground and the engineering problems, if they occur, can be more than just unpainted staircases, eg. roof falls in, water or electricity cut off.

[sabaijai]

Greenside - Do keep us informed of your attempt to get a yellow book. I tried and gave up. Basically told it was too difficult. But some people I believe manage ............

I go the yellow tha-bian baan book in one trip to the district office, not difficult at all.

[SamSipEt]

From reading his two posts, I suspect that distortedlink is referring to "leasehold" because he/she does not understand that "condominium" is the name of a type of ownership. Owning a flat as a condominium is comparatively rare in England, where DL apparently comes from. Instead, most flats are owned on very long term leases, ie. leasehold, not condominium freehold as is common here or in the US, for example.

I agree. A leasehold flat is not the same as a condominium.

It is true to say that people have reported some negative experiences with block management and maintenance, but that is not universal. There are well run condos in Chiang Mai. The secret is to ask about.

I've heard that in the last couple of years the Rimping Condominium has been turned around from a slowly deteriorating block back into a quality building with good proactive management. Apparently all it took was a new Juristic manager and a new monthly maintenance charge levied on the co-owners. How did this happen? Apparently a co-owners committee was formed who have some experienced people on board.