Time To Convert My Car To Use Ngv/lpg

[Mamboking]

It seemed that benzine prices will bull more and more... It's time to convert car to use LPG/NGV gaz intead of benzine. I've heard that soonest time the price per liter will be about 40-45 THB. I don't want to pay for somebody pipelaying.

I have offer: let's collect 3-5 car together and go to the garage to do conversion with big discount.

Who's with me?

Edited May 12, 2008 by Mamboking

[SnakeBite]

Go for LPG, it's more available than NGV. Have you noticed the lines at the NGV stations, not enough coverage country wide.

[Cuban]

Not sure that's enough custom to get blood out of a stone a discount from a Thai retailer.

I've watched the debate about LPG/NGV and how the gas stations have developed across the country (in places) and the debate about safety, there is a good TV thread on this issue.

But don't others consider that NGV will be the winner in this contest of standards? More company support for NGV and seems to be the choice of the truckers around the country that have converted their fleets?

[Mamboking]

Guys, I'm not familiar with that subject, but I'm sure that I'm not only one who want to save on that conversion. Isn't it?

[Smithson]

Not sure that's enough custom to get blood out of a stone a discount from a Thai retailer.

I've watched the debate about LPG/NGV and how the gas stations have developed across the country (in places) and the debate about safety, there is a good TV thread on this issue.

But don't others consider that NGV will be the winner in this contest of standards? More company support for NGV and seems to be the choice of the truckers around the country that have converted their fleets?

These days I imagine they are queuing up for conversions, so I can't see much hope of a discount.

I tend to agree NGV will be the winner. Although I'm not that knowledgeable, based on price alone. In a few years we might see that even LPG is expensive.

[hans1977]

Yes, you are not likely do be alone in trying to save money while doing the conversion. I think that you will find that many paces makes quite small profit on conversions (as there are so many places to do this) if you have a good look around. I'd suggest you'd not look only at the price, but also at what you'll get. A low price is likely to mean low safety and low quality as well.

If the focus is really on price only, then i'd suggest you go to your nearest automotive market to pick up the cheapest secondhand parts you could find. This is also the place where you can find the cheaper van-based gas installation places.

/Hans

Guys, I'm not familiar with that subject, but I'm sure that I'm not only one who want to save on that conversion. Isn't it?

[tigerbeer]

on NGV for a few months now cause I do at least 100kms a day. been savings lots and lots of $$$$. biggest let down is only 2 filling stations here in chiang mai. with one more in doi saket all done. one more month i think and it would be ready. i get 200kms for 120Baht. you do the math

LPG - many many filling stations but for sure to become more expensive. it is petroleum after all. a good LPG system would set you back about 30k baht.

NGV - methane prices not volatile. hence better for the future. 50+k baht for conversion.

A happy NGV user..

[monty]

NGV is the best bet IF if you have enough filling stations close by, AND IF the silly range of 200 km is no problem for you.

If you have only 200 km range, and you have to go 30 km out of your way just to get filled up, then it gets pretty useless in my opinion.

Mind you, 200 km range is on a relative fuel efficient modern car (doing at least over 12 km to the liter on petrol).

If, like me, you drive an older, heavy car it gets really useless! I drive a Volvo 245 of 25 years old, with a mileage of about 7-8 km to the liter!

An NGV tank would carry me 140 km, which means I would run more on petrol then on NGV due to simply running out all the time!

This is no issue for big trucks, they just stick 12 or more tanks on it , can't really do that in a car!

[Crossy]

NGV is the best bet IF if you have enough filling stations close by, AND IF the silly range of 200 km is no problem for you.

Yep, the range is the killer

The company vehicles here in India are NGV (called CNG here, same thing), the boys are filling up almost every day, at least we have high-pressure filling stations so it only takes a couple of minutes (not including the queue with 100,000 auto-rickshaws).

The cars seem a bit gutless on NGV but since a. I've never actually driven one and b. never knowingy been in one running on petrol I can't really compare like for like

[Smithson]

NGV is the best bet IF if you have enough filling stations close by, AND IF the silly range of 200 km is no problem for you.

If you have only 200 km range, and you have to go 30 km out of your way just to get filled up, then it gets pretty useless in my opinion.

Mind you, 200 km range is on a relative fuel efficient modern car (doing at least over 12 km to the liter on petrol).

If, like me, you drive an older, heavy car it gets really useless! I drive a Volvo 245 of 25 years old, with a mileage of about 7-8 km to the liter!

An NGV tank would carry me 140 km, which means I would run more on petrol then on NGV due to simply running out all the time!

This is no issue for big trucks, they just stick 12 or more tanks on it , can't really do that in a car!

I think in the future we'll see a lot more NGV stations, whether or not it's enough to get over 200km range I don't know. This is very low. Aren't bigger tanks available?

[tigerbeer]

I think in the future we'll see a lot more NGV stations, whether or not it's enough to get over 200km range I don't know. This is very low. Aren't bigger tanks available?

the tanks are extremely heavy. my 70litres equivalent tank weighs approx 90kgs. thats enough to put lots of pressure on the shocks. had them shocks modified. still not enough. have to send it in again for further modifications.

yeah there should be more filling stations in the near future. but PTT is not willing to spend that much on it cause they are already losing millions of baht daily to provide NGV. government is doing nothing but talk ... no subsidies nothing.

[Smithson]

I think in the future we'll see a lot more NGV stations, whether or not it's enough to get over 200km range I don't know. This is very low. Aren't bigger tanks available?

the tanks are extremely heavy. my 70litres equivalent tank weighs approx 90kgs. thats enough to put lots of pressure on the shocks. had them shocks modified. still not enough. have to send it in again for further modifications.

yeah there should be more filling stations in the near future. but PTT is not willing to spend that much on it cause they are already losing millions of baht daily to provide NGV. government is doing nothing but talk ... no subsidies nothing.

Is that the weight of the tank full or empty? Is there any hope of lighter tanks in the future? I'm interested in NGV for a pickup, but the tank issue is a disadvantage. Overall what do you think about using it?

[Plus]

What's 90kg for a pickup truck? I weigh 90kilos myself.

[Smithson]

What's 90kg for a pickup truck? I weigh 90kilos myself.

Not that much, but considering the small capacity it's quite a bit, 'cause larger capacity would weigh a lot.

[tigerbeer]

What's 90kg for a pickup truck? I weigh 90kilos myself.

Not that much, but considering the small capacity it's quite a bit, 'cause larger capacity would weigh a lot.

i drive a honda civic and a tank that weighs 90kgs in the trunk does make a big deal. the back part of the car had to be raised up with rubber supports on the shocks. still no good. then a further modification made it somewhat better. still got work to be done on the shocks at the back cause it does bottom out on bumps. toyota's can however take some weight at back. sturdy built.

a filled up tank of CNG would add about an average of 12-14kgs to it depending on the pressure at the service station. plus that with a full tank of petrol and lets see how heavy it gets at the back!

but hey on a truck, doesn't make a difference how big the tank is. put 2 tanks while you are on it while my car was being fitted with NGV, there was a mitsubishi pajero that fitted 2 100 litres tank in it. no problem ! cover it nicely with carpeted plywood and you have lots of space for baggage and golf clubs.

yes 200 kms is such a short distance to drive on one tank but hopefully many more stations come up. i can only say that the demand for NGV would increase quite substantially this year looking at the rising petrol prices. its f%$#g scary.

my savings are huge with NGV... but you guys take your time to get NGV fitted, hate to see a long queue at the pumps

[Mamboking]

Hmmmm, after that even not sure about convertion. I have Audi A4 and I don't think that it's good idea to load on 90 kg more.

But here is still the same question - what to do about fuel price?

Edited May 14, 2008 by Mamboking

[hans1977]

Yes, nothing is for sure, especially in Thailand, is it?

I have had an LPG system that I'm happy with just fitted a couple of months ago. My system has got electric safety valves. One at the tank and the other one at the reducer. Those valves will close in case of power faults or if the engine stops running.

I did the installation together with my friend who has got his own company for LPG installations, and my car has not got any injection system, but a simple system like mine would not have to cost more than about 15000 THB.

You could have a system similar to what i have to start with and possibly change to CNG (NGV) later. Note that you can buy many of the parts as suitable for both LPG and CNG. Also note that you can run your car without a gas injection unit although your petrol system is an injection system.

Best regards,

Hans

Hmmmm, after that even not sure about convertion. I have Audi A4 and I don't think that it's good idea to load on 90 kg more.

But here is still the same question - what to do about fuel price?

[clausewitz]

I have LPG- cost 14,000baht to install. Big savings over petrol, no problems to speak of.

[geoffphuket]

I have to be missing something here, but with a lighter tank and re-fueling stations everywhere, surely LPG is the better option?

[hans1977]

I believe there are many aspects to it, thus complicated.

Some economical issues are:

* Uncertainty on how the Thai government will set the price of LPG.

* Uncertainty on how the oil speculators all over the world effects the price of LPG.

* Uncertainty on what PTT will do with the CNG price when they have reached a big enough number of customers. Keep in mind that only PTT sells CNG, where as more or less anyone can sell LPG.

Then there is the discussion about safety where PTT is quite interested to tell everyone how dangerous LPG converted cars are, and the average Thai would appear confident to tell you how dangerous it is as a result.

Then there are the convenience parts of it to coincider, as you have just done...

And when you thought you were done, there are of course a few other things to it as well...

/Hans

I have to be missing something here, but with a lighter tank and re-fueling stations everywhere, surely LPG is the better option?

[Smithson]

I have to be missing something here, but with a lighter tank and re-fueling stations everywhere, surely LPG is the better option?

If things were to remain how they are then LPG would probably be a better option. A lot depends on LPG prices in the future, as it may increase considerably.

NGV is much cheaper, so you will eventually save the higher conversion costs and then continue to save considerably. If more ppl switch to NGV then there will be more outlets.

While I can't say anything about safety for automotive use, LPG in general is more dangerous than natural gas, but then again I haven't heard of an incidents with LPG.

[Nicewords]

LPG is save ?

i heard NGV is save than LPG

[Cuban]

>i heard NGV is save than LPG

Allowing for a very minor typo spelling error - there is a another long running LPG/NGV thread running here that suggests one is significantly safer than the other - due to gas pressures?

The question has also been raised about quaility of the engineers doing the converstions?

I read some while ago that diesel engines for smaller salon cars would be coming to Thailand as BMW and Ford do in Europe. Currently Thais consider diesel is only for pickups. Bio-diesel has many advantages over Gas - whether that is Gas - Gas or Gasoline - Gas.

The weight cost of gas gas seems to be a stiff penalty to pay for cheap fuel.

[Plus]

LPG makes more sense at the moment, and it will probably be ok for a couple of years. In the long run there's hope that CNG becomes just as practical, and it will certainly be a lot cheaper, always, but how long are you prepared to wait?

LPG tanks are lighter, btw, and popular with all kinds of vehicles. Just today while filling up mine, I saw an old MightyX Toyota truck, then something small like Opel Corsa pulled in, then Subaru. I've even seen not too old Benz E-class once.

Weight is also not an issue with taxi Corollas.

Old Audi would do fine on LPG.

[mixed]

>i heard NGV is save than LPG

Allowing for a very minor typo spelling error - there is a another long running LPG/NGV thread running here that suggests one is significantly safer than the other - due to gas pressures?

I should re-read before I post. The main danger I was referring to is that LPG is heavy than air, so it doesn' disapate (sp?). It also has a broader % to air ratio for ignition the natural gas. Have their been any reported accidents from either?

I read some while ago that diesel engines for smaller salon cars would be coming to Thailand as BMW and Ford do in Europe.

So I suppose we can look forward to the introduction of 'salon cars', should be interesting.

Edited May 15, 2008 by mixed

[monty]

Haven't heard of any serious accidents with lpg. Pressure in the tank is quite low, as well as on the piping leading to the engine..

Not that long ago, a car burnt out completely, it ended up being fitted with LPG. No explosions, safety valves closed of correctly, the fire was caused by an electrical fault somewhere.

A petrol car would have burnt down in much the same way!

NGV has its gas in the tanks under very high pressure, there was a high profile accident recently, where the tanks exploded during filling up (a truck with 12 tanks!) causing injuries and damages. Parts of the tanks were shot away as projectiles for several hundreds of meters!

The 7 kg/sqcm (bar) an LPG tank is filled at won't see it ever explode!

Biggest risk is with shoddy installations where the safety valves aren't installed properly, which can be dangerous in the case of a car fire...

Indeed one of the dangers of LPG is that it is heavier then air, causing it to collect at a low point (bottom of trunk for example). However the additive they put in to make it smell, would let you know there is gas around even at very low incombustible levels!

Exactly the same risks as at home with cooking gas (which in Thailand is 100% identical to the LPG we fill our cars with). Only the safety measures (valves etc...) are poorly controlled at cooking installations. A big hotel in Jomtien burnt down that way (back in '97), with 91 people left dead!

[clausewitz]

The govt. is planning to remove at part of the subsidy on LPG in July. If they remove the full subsidy it will rise to about 17baht/l but I think they would be adverse to doing that considering the likely public reaction.

[Cuban]

Have their been any reported accidents from either?

Heard about rather than read about cars in BKK blowing up during refueling - so difficult to tell if it is bad conversions or bad filling practices.

Saloon - sorry also badliy typie wordy.

I offer three links only as futher reading on this subject.

NGV blast not gas's fault. Badly installed tank explodes. RFID chips to track NGV cars.

The idea of RFID to monitor cars is an interesting one with respect to safety of installation and future safety checking of cars = no check up -> no gas?

But is also raises the question about tracking and privacy - but would the Thai nation care about such an issue?

Edited May 15, 2008 by Cuban

[INTJ]

I converted my car to LPG two years ago as petrol passed the 20 baht mark - now I see 91 at 37 baht and keep smiling. When I first did the conversion I was paying 10.6 baht at the local gas pump, now its up to 11.2. Done 60,000km with zero problems.

God knows who would want NGV over LPG. The conversion costs 3 times as much, the tanks are heavy and have a small capacity, and there are hardly any stations to fill up.

Of course the Thais all believe the PTT propaganda about LPG being dangerous etc. How many taxis blow up in Bangkok on a regular basis ?

Cheers

[hans1977]

It depends on the situation if the gas will be dangerous when it's heavier or lighter relative to air, doesn't it?

For example it could well be that the CNG leaks in to the driver's coupe, starting to build down from the highest point and down to the drivers nose, or it could leak before it makes it into the engine. It might then ignite if it wouldn't find it's way out.

/Hans

Haven't heard of any serious accidents with lpg. Pressure in the tank is quite low, as well as on the piping leading to the engine..

Not that long ago, a car burnt out completely, it ended up being fitted with LPG. No explosions, safety valves closed of correctly, the fire was caused by an electrical fault somewhere.

A petrol car would have burnt down in much the same way!

NGV has its gas in the tanks under very high pressure, there was a high profile accident recently, where the tanks exploded during filling up (a truck with 12 tanks!) causing injuries and damages. Parts of the tanks were shot away as projectiles for several hundreds of meters!

The 7 kg/sqcm (bar) an LPG tank is filled at won't see it ever explode!

Biggest risk is with shoddy installations where the safety valves aren't installed properly, which can be dangerous in the case of a car fire...

Indeed one of the dangers of LPG is that it is heavier then air, causing it to collect at a low point (bottom of trunk for example). However the additive they put in to make it smell, would let you know there is gas around even at very low incombustible levels!

Exactly the same risks as at home with cooking gas (which in Thailand is 100% identical to the LPG we fill our cars with). Only the safety measures (valves etc...) are poorly controlled at cooking installations. A big hotel in Jomtien burnt down that way (back in '97), with 91 people left dead!