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Posted (edited)

Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

Edited by wilko
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Posted

Five months full time study. I've learned that communicating in Thai is far more about understanding the culture than understanding the vocabulary.

Posted

I have put in, what I believe to be, a lot of effort into learning Thai over the years - far more than I would have expected in the beginning. I would not claim to be fluent at all.

It is my opinion that most people who claim to be fluent are far from this. Most could be considered somewhere around intermediate at best. I have met only a couple of westerners who I would consider to be fluent in Thai. They are very rare indeed.

I think that a problem is that many of the Thai learners you meet are from English speaking countries and they seem to have strange ideas about what it means to be fluent in a language. It is my experience that those who come from countries, where more than one language is expected, have a more realistic measure of their ability in Thai.

I think that if people used the same criteria, as how they would judge fluent speakers in English, to their own Thai abilities they would get a more realistic view of their ability. I don't see anything wrong with people saying they are fluent, when they are not, except that they are doing themselves a bit of a disservice. I believe that if you want to advance in something you need to have a realistic view of where you are now.

The real fluent speakers, in my experience, tend to downplay their Thai language ability. They can do it now and have no need to blow their own trumpets. It is just another thing they can do and no big deal. After all you are sort of expected to pick up the language in a country where you live.

I think that one problem is that many of the introductions to Thai start off with teaching learners how to say 'I speak Thai'. I think that learners repeat this sentence so much that they begin to actually believe it. A type of auto-suggestion :o

Posted

Yes....i think especially people who have not really experienced or use other languages themselves often have great difficulty in learning and subsequently grossly over estimate what they have learned and their ability in the language.

I googled a definition that works for me......

Fluent is when you can speak the second language with more or less the same ability that you can speak your native language.

Perhaps the only stage above fluency would be “bi-lingual” which you virtually have to be born into.

Do you feel comfortable speaking the language? Can you communicate easily with native speakers? Can you read newspapers, listen to the radio, and watch tv? Are you able to understand the gist of the language as it is spoken and written, even if you don't know every single word? Can you understand native speakers from different regions? The more fluent you are, the more of these questions you can answer "yes" to.

Context - A fluent speaker may have some gaps in vocabulary, but is capable of figuring out these terms in context. Likewise s/he can reword sentences in order to describe an object, explain an idea, or get a point across, even if s/he doesn't know the actual terms.

Dictionary...

Ready in the use of words; voluble; copious; having words at command; and uttering them with facility and smoothness; as, a fluent speaker; hence, flowing; voluble; smooth; -- said of language; as, fluent speech.

Quote:

We need a president who's fluent in at least one language.

Buck Henry

Posted
Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

Given the attitude of some posters in the "other thread" one needs thick skin to post on this thread. Apparently if you profess to be fluent in Thai on TV you are blowing your own trumpet. Unfortunately I never took music lessons and am unable to play. So for the edification of those interested here goes;

Native speaker being level five, graduation standard where I learned Thai, at the Australian Defence Force school of languages was 2+ for speaking, reading, writing and listening and 2 for translating and interpreting.

The definitions for each are as follows:

Speaking - Can express narrative and state and support unembellished opinion on general military and social topics, eg express and support an opinion about a current issue of general interest. Interacts by using paragraphs of complex sentences in the most common formal and informal styles of the TL standard variety, vocabulary is broad, though high frequency.

Listening - Supported by suitable references, can process live or recorded monologues and conversations that comprise narrative and unembellished opinion, on general military and social topics, eg processes the most essential points in sequentially structured reportage that is designed for a general audience, or processes a conversation about an issue of current interest to the general public. Texts comprise paragraphs of complex sentences in the most common formal and informal styles of the TL standard variety.

Reading - Supported by suitable references, can process hand written and typed texts that comprise simple reported data about concrete matters, on everyday military and social topics. Completes tasks that relate to basic monitoring and debriefing, eg process the description of an event or incident. Texts comprise collection of common, complex standard variety TL sentences extending to paragraph level.

Writing - Supported by suitable references can express simple reported data about concrete matters, on everyday military and social topics. Completes tasks requiring the composition of brief accounts and/or the basic communication of ideas, eg to write a brief account of an event or incident, or write a brief biographical report, Uses a brief collection of common, complex, stndard variety TL sentences extending to paragraph level.

Translating (TL-E and E-TL) - Can complete military and social translating tasks by transferring unembellished reports, eg to translate a newspaper report designed for a general audience. Translations are recognisably foreign at discrete points but in a form appropriate to the immediate needs of the client. Texts comprise paragraphs of the standard variety on familiar topics. Translates into the receptor language at a rate of 200-220 words (or an ideogrammatic equivalent) per hour.

Interpreting is tested along the same lines using a Thai native speaker. Note TL = Target Language

At graduation an Advanced Diploma of Thai Language is awarded and the graduate is classed as an Intermediate Thai linguist

Following graduation I was posted to the office of the Defence Attache at the Embassy in Bangkok where I worked for three years and hopefully improved my Thai. I then spent five months with the Royal Thai Army in East Timor where I was the only Farang with 1,600 Thais.

Following my stint in East Timor I was required to undergo re-qualification to continue to recieve linguist allowance. I was very pleased to be re-qualified at the Advanced Thai linguist level, both because it meant a larger allowance and because I had improved my level of Thai without further pain in the classroom. If anything my Thai has improved since then due to long periods in Thailand.

Am I fluent? In conversations on familiar subjects, yes. In conversations on unfamiliar subjects no, but I can hold my own. The beauty of learning another language is that you can never know it all, so every day there is an opportunity to learn something new.

Posted

My mother togue is English.....I'm fluent but I certainly don't know it all.....that is to state the "bleedin' obvious"...especially when referring to fluency in a foreign tongue.

I take you levels are defined by ..UN? Australian Military? or something like that?

Posted

When people label themselves as 'fluent', it doesn't mean anything since everybody seems to set a different standard to what he or she believes is "fluent".

On top of a problem with applying the label "fluent", biased responses are to be expected.

As long as there is no benchmark, reference or objective test, its just talk in the wind and self proclaimed 'fluent-ness' holds little value.

It never ceases to amaze me how the ratio of 'fluent' Thai speakers outnumbers the non-fluent ones in threads on language.

I guess one reason is off course that people who are actually better at Thai language are much more likely to respond...

'Out on the streets' the ratio of expats "fluent" in Thai seems to be extremely low compared to the forum.

Posted
My mother togue is English.....I'm fluent but I certainly don't know it all.....that is to state the "bleedin' obvious"...especially when referring to fluency in a foreign tongue.

I take you levels are defined by ..UN? Australian Military? or something like that?

No idea Wilko. I think it's internationally used that level 5 is native speaker.

Posted

My pint is that includes some "unrealistic" definitions such as military or specialist language...i'm sure as a general guide it's fine but again I know mechanics and engineers with a huge technical vocab...but nowhere near fluent...in fact in any other situation they struggle.

the definition I pasted in points out that you should be able to perform deductive tasks and express these in the foreign language if confronted with unfamiliar language....this I would suggest is the most important part of fluency.

Posted

I'm at "survival" level after 12 years.

Yes, lazy as hel_l. Nope, no SO.

But Thais tell me that what little Thai that I speak is very clear .. but my tones .. they sometimes err

Posted (edited)

Can I propose a 10 level scale? It might need improvement. it's a first try:

level 0: (Nono level) does not speak a word

level 1: (Sawasdee level) can greet, yes/no, goodbye

level 2: (Counting level) can count, ask prices, order food -let's say the most basic practical communications

level 3: (Taxi-Thai level) the level where you can ask directions, have a basic 'taxi' conversation stating what country you are from and what brings you to Thailand, yes its going to rain, its traffic jam etc...

level 4: (Girlfriend-Thai level): at this level extra vocabulary is acquired for a range of household, monetary and other subjects. includes relation related voc.

level 5: (Chit-chat Thai level): small talk about the weather, family, home country etc. One can understand and respond to basic day to day questions

level 6: (Basic Thai level): one can hold conversations as long as the topic is general. When not knowing a certain word, the speaker can explain the word in a different way. When listening, non understood words meaning is made up from the context.

level 7: (TVnewsThai level): the level where you can actually understand 80% of the Thai tv news. a major benchmark

level 8: (More advance Thai level): here you can also discuss specific topics (politics, although maybe not a good idea), you can explain the doctor how your allergy affects your sleep pattern etc, and the dentist you need root canal treatment of your molar tooth

level 9: (Even more advanced Thai level): here you can almost say everything, hard to think of topics you have difficulty expressing yourself in Thai

level 10: you speak as good as a native. can express yourself 100% in Thai. you think in Thai

Then there is the accent. maybe we should have a seperate scale for that?

Edited by VoIP
Posted (edited)

I have run across a few farangs that I would consider fluent, mostly by watching reactions of their conversation group over a long conversation.

A Thai friend and I ran across what he called a "native-speaking" farang.

It was Christmas in '90, I believe .. at the old California Club/Bee Barber on Soi 23 .. before the HK folks bought it and ruined it. Two mid-teen girls from the US came in "caroling" Thai songs. One had come to Thailand with her family at age 8 or thereabouts .. and talked her parents into letting her stay when they moved back.

My Thai friend asked her several long involved questions in Thai .. then repeated the process with his eyes closed.

"When I look at her, she is farang, but when my eyes are closed, she is Thai."

Edited by klikster
Posted
Can I propose a 10 level scale? It might need improvement. it's a first try:

level 0: (Nono level) does not speak a word

level 1: (Sawasdee level) can greet, yes/no, goodbye

level 2: (Counting level) can count, ask prices, order food -let's say the most basic practical communications

level 3: (Taxi-Thai level) the level where you can ask directions, have a basic 'taxi' conversation stating what country you are from and what brings you to Thailand, yes its going to rain, its traffic jam etc...

level 4: (Girlfriend-Thai level): at this level extra vocabulary is acquired for a range of household, monetary and other subjects. includes relation related voc.

level 5: (Chit-chat Thai level): small talk about the weather, family, home country etc. One can understand and respond to basic day to day questions

level 6: (Basic Thai level): one can hold conversations as long as the topic is general. When not knowing a certain word, the speaker can explain the word in a different way. When listening, non understood words meaning is made up from the context.

level 7: (TVnewsThai level): the level where you can actually understand 80% of the Thai tv news. a major benchmark

level 8: (More advance Thai level): here you can also discuss specific topics (politics, although maybe not a good idea), you can explain the doctor how your allergy affects your sleep pattern etc, and the dentist you need root canal treatment of your molar tooth

level 9: (Even more advanced Thai level): here you can almost say everything, hard to think of topics you have difficulty expressing yourself in Thai

level 10: you speak as good as a native. can express yourself 100% in Thai. you think in Thai

Then there is the accent. maybe we should have a seperate scale for that?

or level 13 perhaps????

All Thais understand a speaker perfectly realise what they are really like and promptly never speak to them again

Posted

Although i never describe myself as being fluent (because i'm not), aren't we perhaps being a little pedantic to say that if you can't have an in-depth discussion about the Thai constitution, then you are not fluent?

I meet many Thais who, if i were asked, i would describe as being fluent in English, but that's not to say they are capable of discussing technical or complex matters.

I think although it's not always stated, when we talk about being fluent in a language we are generally talking about fluency in general conversation. If the level is greater than this then i would describe the person as being bi-lingual rather than just fluent.

(BTW - why isn't this thread in Thai language section?)

Posted

The original question being 'how far have you got', and well defined objective 0-10 scale :o now at our disposal, I would 'self-judge' myself to a level 6.

Where do you place yourself using this scale?

Posted

"One can understand and respond to basic day to day questions"

After how many "repeats" ..

I think one part of fluency is the ability to engage in conversations that ignore basic grammar and sentence structure.

Posted
The original question being 'how far have you got', and well defined ? objective ? 0-10 scale :o now at our disposal, I would 'self-judge' myself to a level 6.

Where do you place yourself using this scale?

Your scale suffers on at least 1 point. Why even have a '0'?

I would consider #1 questionable as well. That's the problem with proprietary ratings. Usually subjective.

Posted

Level 6

...livin' and working here for some time, can't see any reason to lift this one single level further!

Those capable of discussing higher level topics (politics, society, technical & scientific stuff), are usually able to have this conversation in English and usually feel more comfortable about it. :o

Posted

I use Thai in almost all social and professional converstations with Thai people. There are two exceptions to this: When speaking to Thais in the company of non Thai speakers and when I wish to set myself at an advantage - for example when making a complaint about a service (the advantage being double - The person I am speaking to will almost certainly not have sufficient English to 'hide' problems and I get to earwig the 'back converstation in Thai)

Fluency is a difficult to put a scale on - I have a wide fluency in the language sets I use: Social, Engineering and after long contact with the Thai medical services, medical Thai. Building a house brings a new language set, as does studing Thai art and history - If I took to Thai boxing, I'm sure I'd gain both new vocabulary to compliment and discribe my new bruises and broken bones.

A curious thing I find is when speaking one of my other languages, which I may not have used for a while, I bring up Thai words and phrases in the middle of sentences where I'm struggling to recall this third language.

Posted
I use Thai in almost all social and professional converstations with Thai people. There are two exceptions to this: When speaking to Thais in the company of non Thai speakers and when I wish to set myself at an advantage - for example when making a complaint about a service (the advantage being double - The person I am speaking to will almost certainly not have sufficient English to 'hide' problems and I get to earwig the 'back converstation in Thai)

Fluency is a difficult to put a scale on - I have a wide fluency in the language sets I use: Social, Engineering and after long contact with the Thai medical services, medical Thai. Building a house brings a new language set, as does studing Thai art and history - If I took to Thai boxing, I'm sure I'd gain both new vocabulary to compliment and discribe my new bruises and broken bones.

A curious thing I find is when speaking one of my other languages, which I may not have used for a while, I bring up Thai words and phrases in the middle of sentences where I'm struggling to recall this third language.

Fluency is only relevant if you are planning to live and work in a country.

If so, fluency - or at least the ability to read, write and communicate - are a must.

The holidaymaker only needs a few basic phrases whereas the true expat will run into all kinds of situations where communication is

essential.

Posted
Fluency is only relevant if you are planning to live and work in a country.

It's also something that people who have an accademic interest in Thai language and culture might find useful.

Posted
Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

I'm pretty fluent when I ask a question in Thai.

The touble is I never understand the answer.

Posted

Between level 5 and 6, more towards 6, after 2 years in Thailand.

Took private lessons about 3 times a week for 2 months in the beginning and that was very important for me to get started. I had tried for a month without teacher before starting lessons, just by being around Thai people, reading dictionaries and phrase books and could not really get anywhere.

I just can't reach the level 7, understanding TV, I would probably have to continue really studying vocabulary to reach that.

Can write some words that I know, can read a bit but without understanding what I read if I don't know the word.

Posted (edited)
level 0: (Nono level) does not speak a word

level 1: (Sawasdee level) can greet, yes/no, goodbye

level 2: (Counting level) can count, ask prices, order food -let's say the most basic practical communications

level 3: (Taxi-Thai level) the level where you can ask directions, have a basic 'taxi' conversation stating what country you are from and what brings you to Thailand, yes its going to rain, its traffic jam etc...

level 4: (Girlfriend-Thai level): at this level extra vocabulary is acquired for a range of household, monetary and other subjects. includes relation related voc.

level 5: (Chit-chat Thai level): small talk about the weather, family, home country etc. One can understand and respond to basic day to day questions

level 6: (Basic Thai level): one can hold conversations as long as the topic is general. When not knowing a certain word, the speaker can explain the word in a different way. When listening, non understood words meaning is made up from the context.

level 7: (TVnewsThai level): the level where you can actually understand 80% of the Thai tv news. a major benchmark

level 8: (More advance Thai level): here you can also discuss specific topics (politics, although maybe not a good idea), you can explain the doctor how your allergy affects your sleep pattern etc, and the dentist you need root canal treatment of your molar tooth

level 9: (Even more advanced Thai level): here you can almost say everything, hard to think of topics you have difficulty expressing yourself in Thai

level 10: you speak as good as a native. can express yourself 100% in Thai. you think in Thai

On this scale I would have to put myself at 6. One of my real frustrations is the TV news . . . .

I learnt to read, which I think was the biggest help in acquiring the language. All of a sudden, when you can read it, it beings to make alot more sense :o

Being a musician by background and training, I don't have a problem with hearing the tones.

Edited by grtaylor
Posted
Came up in another post but I thought it was a bit off topic.....

What efforts HAVE you made to learn Thai?

How far have you got?

I'm pretty fluent when I ask a question in Thai.

The touble is I never understand the answer.

Think I found out what "Salop Salai" means... :o

Posted

I'm now in a position where I need to use Thai a lot, especially for contact with people in other departments and reading memos that come down from above. I don't feel I'm a completely fluent speaker but some days seem to be better than others.

The most difficult thing is composing my own memos in Thai. I was originally given the impression that I could do this in English but it's become clear that Thai is preferred. Fortunately, there is a good set of samples that I can draw on and I have managed quite well.

Posted
I use Thai in almost all social and professional converstations with Thai people. There are two exceptions to this: When speaking to Thais in the company of non Thai speakers and when I wish to set myself at an advantage - for example when making a complaint about a service (the advantage being double - The person I am speaking to will almost certainly not have sufficient English to 'hide' problems and I get to earwig the 'back converstation in Thai)

Fluency is a difficult to put a scale on - I have a wide fluency in the language sets I use: Social, Engineering and after long contact with the Thai medical services, medical Thai. Building a house brings a new language set, as does studing Thai art and history - If I took to Thai boxing, I'm sure I'd gain both new vocabulary to compliment and discribe my new bruises and broken bones.

A curious thing I find is when speaking one of my other languages, which I may not have used for a while, I bring up Thai words and phrases in the middle of sentences where I'm struggling to recall this third language.

Same with me. I believe that when you learn a foreign language its "boxed" in a particular area of your brain and that when your struggling to recall words they mingle for want of a better phrase. Example, Swedish is one of my now rarely used foreign languages, when I'm searching for a word in Thai its the Swedish equivalent more likely to pop up rather than the English equivalent. Strange.

Posted

A curious thing I find is when speaking one of my other languages, which I may not have used for a while, I bring up Thai words and phrases in the middle of sentences where I'm struggling to recall this third language.

Same with me. I believe that when you learn a foreign language its "boxed" in a particular area of your brain and that when your struggling to recall words they mingle for want of a better phrase. Example, Swedish is one of my now rarely used foreign languages, when I'm searching for a word in Thai its the Swedish equivalent more likely to pop up rather than the English equivalent. Strange.

I do the same thing. I have always viewed it as having a default secondary language. The first secondary language I learned was Spanish. When I was just starting in Thai I would sometimes throw in Spanish words when I was speaking Thai and the Thai word didn't come to mind immediately. Now that I use Thai far more than Spanish my brain spits out some Thai words when I speak Spanish, but not Spanish when I am speaking Thai. Thus Thai has become the default language when I am not speaking English. I rarely mix the secondary language words with English or vise versa. My only trouble between my primary and secondary languages is that I sometimes don't know which language I use. I automatically use whichever language is spoken to me and have no idea afterwards what language was used. BTW, I am far from fluent in either of my secondary languages so I am fairly surprised that I don't know what language I speak.

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