Why Is Thailand So Far Behind The West?

[Richard W]

'North Mongoloid' and 'South Mongoloid'

The older generation of sociocultural anthropologists and geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza are linguistic dinosaurs.

"Mongoloid" has been the medical term used to describe Down Syndrome sufferers for more than a century, and as such it has become almost politically incorrect to use the word to describe natives of Mongolia.

I know you meant no offense, but we are "Mongols" or "Mongolian", never "Mongoloid".

Nor do I use 'Mongoloid' as a term meaning the inhabitants of Mongolia - the Mongolians. The term Mongol is best used for the ethnic group (or groups, if you include the far-flung groups like the Kalmucks) or language family. I hesitated between '-oid' and '-ian'. '-oid' seems to be the preferred term in the on-line references.

As for 'Mongoloid idiot', that can get abbreviated to 'Mongol', so one is stuck with the polysemy until "Down's" thoroughly replaces it.

[Abandon]

Curiosity killed the cat ! 

But at least it died satisfied 

My white cat didn't. It had some brown stains around its bum, and my old Grandmother took pity and applied a little bleach to the stained fur. Next morning it was dead.

BTW my grandmother is a genuine curiosity.

[chonabot]

Was she Thai? The Grandma.

[Abandon]

Not Thai. Half birmingham, and half mad

[kat]

QUOTE (pop3 @ Mon 2004-10-25, 08:32:27)

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ? 

They are having their life decisions made by their second head. 

Wow, well said Pat Pong!!!...............this is the FIRST time I have seen a Man post this!! Cheers!!

I do not think that all Thais are backward, it all depends on the upbringing, nuturing and education. Most of the overseas educated ones are all right.......although some tend to fall back to their old fashioned ways.

It also depends on the individuals' abilities and initiative. Some do nothing to improve and some try so hard to better themselves.

God gave man a dick and a brain ... but sadly he didn't give him enough blood to run 'em together.

55555555

Women get so much <deleted> for their monthly blood flows, but according to most men, the male brain suffers a blood flow loss at least several times a day.

[Nat]

QUOTE (pop3 @ Mon 2004-10-25, 08:32:27)

If we're so clever why do so many doctor's lawyer's bank manager's ect, ect, come over here and put their life saving's in somebody elses name ? 

They are having their life decisions made by their second head. 

Wow, well said Pat Pong!!!...............this is the FIRST time I have seen a Man post this!! Cheers!!

I do not think that all Thais are backward, it all depends on the upbringing, nuturing and education. Most of the overseas educated ones are all right.......although some tend to fall back to their old fashioned ways.

It also depends on the individuals' abilities and initiative. Some do nothing to improve and some try so hard to better themselves.

God gave man a dick and a brain ... but sadly he didn't give him enough blood to run 'em together.

55555555

Women get so much <deleted> for their monthly blood flows, but according to most men, the male brain suffers a blood flow loss at least several times a day.

It's to keep everything in balance

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Was she Thai? The Grandma.

Aren't you the official keeper of records there Chon ?

[plachon]

Yesterday, I was having an interesting discussion with my girlfriend. It started out by her asking a question, something along the lines of "Why is the sky blue?" And I gave her an answer. Then she asked, "Why are farang smarter than Thais?" Comparing the American and other economies in the west to Thailand's, she was wondering if there was a genetic reason. I told her I didn't think there was anything genitic about it. So then she wanted to know why the American economy was so much more advanced than that in Thailand.

This is quite a difficult question. The reasons I came up with are "Bad government, which leads to bad education, religion and supersitions, and corruption" I'm sure everything I mention leads to a poor economy, but I still don't see how that can explain the vast difference.

Singapore is not that far away, why are they so much more economically advanced than Thailand?

Your girlfiriend posed to you a version of "Yali's question". Yali was a Papuan, who asked a guy called Jared Diamond why it was Europeans who brought "cargo" (and colonialism) to New Guinea and not the other way round. This got Diamond pondering about all the assumptions and stereotypes that Westerners carry around with them, thinking that there must be some sort of inherent superiority factor at work, whether genetic or other wise, which has led to European-peoples domination of much of the globe, whether economically or by brute force (e.g. Iraq and Afghanistan, as v. recent examples) during the past 4 - 5 centuries.

The result was a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel", and I can guarantee it is an excellent read (available from Amazon), if you want to know the reasons. won't spoil it for you, and anyway there's not the space here to cover the topic with justice.

PS Your girlfriend is just as smart as you, probably more so for asking those questions in the first place!

[kat]

Yes, I've been looking at that book at Asia Books with the intention to buy.

However, just to balance things out a bit, the Europeans and Westerners are not the only group to rape, pillage, and dominate. It's helpful to read the history of colonized countries before the arrival of the Europeans to gain a

wider perspective of human history in this regard.

Also, long story short: the nature of devleopment progressed differently in the West than in the "southern hemisphere", or, developing countries. The industrial revolution of the west expanded and became more efficient because of technological progress, whereas in Thailand initial production expanded largely by consuming more and more land and resources.

[Coffee Dude]

I believe it has a lot to do with culture in a very broad sense. A growing number of Thai individuals have learned to make successful businesses in an international market without resorting to criminal activity. Many have not. I lived and worked in a remote part of Africa for a time. In that culture, if an individual had a job and an income, it was required tha they divide this equally among the family...a very extended family. The motivation to go out and bust ones butt and get the same reward as the other 30-40 people asleep under the mango tree was not a strong one. The result was; even if a person was lucky enough to get a job they only wanted to sleep under the mango tree rather than actually try to make a go of it. There is a vague similarity between this and the often seen situation of a child having to leave school after the 6th year to go work in the rice fields so the family could have the money. These socialogical practices work well in a survival situation like exists in the jungle or in a basic agricultural society. But, in an industrial or capitalistic society this doesn't do much for the growth of the society.

I can say, I am impressed with the rapidity that the Thai society and Thai people have begun to adjust to an international society and in such a relatively short time. Compared to Britain how many centuries? the USA 230 years, European countries for the most part have been at it for longer than history has been recorded very well and still have problems. Thailand as little a fifty years ago was nearly embrionic in it's growth and now it is easily recognizable as a growing capitalistic culture.

Is this a good thing? Many people would say no. Because the ancient culture of Thailand is why many foreigners come here in the first place. Many Thai people, especially in a rural setting don't want to change to "cityfied' ways. These things are normal. Basically it is a matter of choice. A large percentage of the people have not made the choice to pay the "price" to move in to a fast paced, restrictive albeit lucrative lifestyle change.

Coffee!!!

[plachon]

Yes, I've been looking at that book at Asia Books with the intention to buy.

However, just to balance things out a bit, the Europeans and Westerners are not the only group to rape, pillage, and dominate. It's helpful to read the history of colonized countries before the arrival of the Europeans to gain a

wider perspective of human history in this regard.

Also, long story short: the nature of devleopment progressed differently in the West than in the "southern hemisphere", or, developing countries. The industrial revolution of the west expanded and became more efficient because of technological progress, whereas in Thailand initial production expanded largely by consuming more and more land and resources.

Buy it Kat, you won't regret it.

I never implied that Europeans had a cartel on rape, pilage and colonisation. They've just been the most successful at in in the short history of mankind. One of the many examples that Diamond provides of a superior technologically-speaking group dominating another is the Kiwis of New Zealand, post colonisation by the Brits, taking their boats and newly discovered miracle guns and wiping out the "stone age" Chatham islanders a few hundred kms away. Nowt to do with the Europeans, only their technology. That's the "guns" part of the title, while in fact "germs" have been far more deadly and effective in wiping out the natives, wherever the Europeans went, laying the land open to colonisation. Then there's the industrial revolution with it's infernal combustion engine, railways (how the west was really won) and of course the "miracle" of steel.

We all have the "selfish gene" and propensity for great good or great violence. It all depends on our......................... how one society develops and "The Fate of nations". Get the book and it will all be revealed.

[lopburi3]

Is it possible to be in love with a cartoon charactar? I think I love her

Seriously though, I've got a much more racey one but I don't think the mods would let me get away with it

I'm none too happy about having Flummoxed's heaving half-woman on display in the living room for my young daughter to ask me about.

Have the same problem so turned off at 'my controls'/'board settings' long ago. Of course that removes them all so you don't understand what people are talking about but I have not found it much of a loss. I don't understand much anyhow.

[Doi Thong]

The most interesting discussion on this board from what I remember.But I'm not "educated" enough to add anything...:-) Am I Thai?

[stroll]

I lived and worked in a remote part of Africa for a time. In that culture, if an individual had a job and an income, it was required tha they divide this equally among the family...a very extended family. The motivation to go out and bust ones butt and get the same reward as the other 30-40 people asleep under the mango tree was not a strong one. The result was; even if a person was lucky enough to get a job they only wanted to sleep under the mango tree rather than actually try to make a go of it. There is a vague similarity between this and the often seen situation of a child having to leave school after the 6th year to go work in the rice fields so the family could have the money. These socialogical practices work well in a survival situation like exists in the jungle or in a basic agricultural society. But, in an industrial or capitalistic society this doesn't do much for the growth of the society.

One could say that this is not dissimilar to how early capitalist societies were organized, before the state took on some of the responsibilities of the family and the capltalist employers. The (adjusted) western system of capitalism is expansive and predatory in its nature.

I don't think the average Thai is less capable of economic 'success' than the average American, other than the limitations set by access to the means to do so (includung education) and the different life-values.

[Abandon]

my cat was a siamese though

[kat]

I don't think the average Thai is less capable of economic 'success' than the average American, other than the limitations set by access to the means to do so (includung education) and the different life-values.

hmmm. But maybe the "different life-values" play a much greater role than what you describe here. I think different life-values have become one of the largest qualifiers between East and West, but maybe that's just me.

[samran]

after reading most of the posts here, you have to wonder who is really more backwards???

[kat]

Samran:

Do you care to elaborate with an actual argument or explanation of your opinion?

[stroll]

I think looking into life-values in detail would open the door to all kinds of stereotypes and preconceptions, and we need to have more Thais/Asians to post their comments. I am not clear about the differences myself, I guess as a farang I only had a superficial glance at what it is about, and I wouldn't want to annoy others with my unqualified remarks.

[paulfr]

A most interesting thread and an important question for Thais who love their country.

I think pandit35 and daveh make excellent points ...

1/weather => food abundance

2/property rights => individual incentive

3/mandatory public education => change starts with ideas/possibilities learned

in school

4/infrastructure => economic cooperation and teamwork

I would add one thing ..... Political inertia; those in power discouraging change.

Back in the early 70's I worked with physicists who regularly worked

with and went to see Russian physicists. They said that everyone

in educated USSR circles knew the communist system did not work and was doomed, but no one could do anything to unseat those in power. And why would

those in power have any incentive to create change and give up

their exaulted positions for themselves and their families ?

It wasnt until modern communications, Gorbechev and Reagan

that the inertia could be overcome. It took nearly 25 years.

I think that the privilidged classes in Thailand have been slow to

support and allow change to happen. This is normal human nature

at work similar to the Russian experience. In addition to that, there has

been no serious demand from the people asking for change until

recently.

Just as in the USSR, modern communications is exposing Thais,

Iranians, Chinese and other countries to see and thus to want the

better material lives of those in the West. So demand is emerging.

And now Taksin is speaking about education, technology

and making Thailand a modern industrial country.

It will happen but it will take time.

[Boon Mee]

I wouldn't say Thailand is too far "behind"

My thoughts too. I'd put Thailand ahead of the West in terms of society and civilization. Do the math. They've been at it for over 2,500 years and to my mind it's further along the evolutionary path than "Farangland"

[kat]

Stroll:

Fair enough. That is a response I can respect. However, the fact that we don't want to discuss them doesn't mean that different values don't exist. For all intent and purposes, difference is an unavoidable fact. How we understand those differences or assign value is another matter.

[stroll]

I wouldn't say Thailand is too far "behind"

My thoughts too. I'd put Thailand ahead of the West in terms of society and civilization. Do the math. They've been at it for over 2,500 years and to my mind it's further along the evolutionary path than "Farangland"

Now there is something you and I agree on. But what exactly makes you say that?

Perhaps we need to attempt to look at cultural values after all.

[samran]

Samran:

Do you care to elaborate with an actual argument or explanation of your opinion?

I wish I didn't have to.

Most everything written here (except dr PP's comment which I loved) are trying to find some sort of sophisticated sociological/genetic based anwser.....based on a the premise that there is such a thing as 'backwards'. Its the equivalent of academic masterbation.

Does Thailand have problems? Yes, but so does everywhere else.

Is Thailand backwards? Its up to you isn't it? But I don't think so.

Can't it be as simple matter of choice, that things are a certain way, rather than shoving everything though some sort of quasi academic framework which only exists in the mind of a few people?

People make choices in their lives, in general to acheive a situation they want. Thai people obviously do have a choice. In many cases the choice is not to make a choice. The let others make the decision for them. Most of the time they are happy with that outcome. They wind up with the situation they want, and as outsiders we should just accept it. If people want to change something, then they will ( a couple of bloody student revolutions and some truely brilliant civil servants I know come to mind).

In about 2 weeks most Americans aren't going to vote for their next President. So only about 25.5% of them will actually choose the next guy who runs that country. Are most Americans (excluding the losers) going to run around and say the US is backwards because of that? No.

[kat]

Well actually, I do think the last American election was backwards, and that many of our national myths about democracies are based on lies and hypocrisies.

But maybe that's just me; I like examining things as they really are, not how I want them to be because of my own political or personal biases. And I apply this perspective to my own and every other country. But it just so happens that this thread was about development, and in particular development in Thailand. My comment was not based on sociological/academic masturbation, but on factual information in response to a discussion.

Just because many here have chosen to make Thailand their homes, does not mean that everyone from then on is obliged to leave their historical and critical faculties at the border. If none of us were allowed to critically dissect and analyze other countries, than we would have no comparative basis on which to understand or synthesize the past, present or future.

[kat]

Can't it be as simple matter of choice, that things are a certain way (....)

People make choices in their lives, in general to acheive a situation they want. Thai people obviously do have a choice. In many cases the choice is not to make a choice. The let others make the decision for them. Most of the time they are happy with that outcome. They wind up with the situation they want, and as outsiders we should just accept it. If people want to change something, then they will ( a couple of bloody student revolutions and some truely brilliant civil servants I know come to mind).

quote Boon Mee:

"My thoughts too. I'd put Thailand ahead of the West in terms of society and civilization. Do the math. They've been at it for over 2,500 years and to my mind it's further along the evolutionary path than 'Farangland' ".

I would like to actually debate the content of what is said here, rather than our supposed "right" or "entitlement" to have a discussion. Stroll and Boon Mee, you both agree with the above statement. You are arguing that the historical age of a culture equals a more evolved society. But in my view, antiquity alone does not make a better or more "evolved" society. I can show you dozens of links regarding human rights violations, lack of enforcements, cronyism, and bad governance among other things; but of course, that is my Western perspective. And in the discussion of human rights and the concept of equality, we slip dangerously back into the dreaded territory of "life-values".

For arguments sake, I will stick to the easily referenced questions. For one, if antiquity is such a trump card in terms of civilization and society, why does Thailand's civil adminstration still face most of the same issues that were present when King Chulangkorn started a modernization process over 100 years ago?

[griser]

Well this opinion may not seem vastly intellectual but here goes....

I think the main reason Thai are not quite up to snuff in the business dept. is for two main reasons.

1. The education system here promotes CHEATING. I'm sure every teacher in Thailand will back me up on this. All students cheat in one form or another. teachers see it, even encourage it from kindergarten to college!

If a child grows up thinking cheating is correct his view of the world is going to be oddly skewed (jeez that sounds like fatbastard from Austin powers!) . This cheating occures even in the BEST Thai schoools. This means that Thailands current AND future leaders (business and political) will think that going the easy route is the best way to perform. No successful business person ever got anywhere without hard work and planning. Thai students are taught in school that this unecessary.

2. Goverment corruption is rampant here. This is, I think, a offshoot of problem #1. Children who are taught that cheating is ok are going to have blurred lines of right and wrong. Is graft that much different than cheating?

Greg

[Sulaphat]

The result was a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel", and I can guarantee it is an excellent read (available from Amazon), if you want to know the reasons. won't spoil it for you, and anyway there's not the space here to cover the topic with justice.

This excellent book is also available at Kinokuniya (3rd floor, Emporium) here in Bangkok.

I highly recommend it for anyone interested in learning more about why the world has haves and have-nots. I also won't spoil the book's premises or conclusion, other than to say they are probably slightly different than most would expect.

[samran]

For arguments sake, I will stick to the easily referenced questions. For one, if antiquity is such a trump card in terms of civilization and society, why does Thailand's civil adminstration still face most of the same issues that were present when King Chulangkorn started a modernization process over 100 years ago?

Because in real terms, the civil service today receives just as much from general revenues as it did in King Chula's time.

[kat]

Sulaphat:

I definitely appreciate the recommendation, and I am definitely going to buy the book and read it. But I would also like to add that people should not rely solely on one book to shape their opinons or understanding of any topic.

To add to Griser's comments:

The cheating and graft go way back, within the cultural/historical context of patron/client relationships and the role of kickbacks and "gifts" to powerful aristocrats and civil servants. As I said: an overhaul which was initiated more than 100 years ago.