Volunteer Opportunity

[Tyke]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

Common sense? m... there are lots of things in Thailand that are common sense but don't make sense. The fact is that if farangs contravene labour laws they can be expelled. What does make sense is that for many expats who want to make their life here and have maybe heavily invested - both financially and family-wise in this country - is that they make highly critical judgements before they embark on something that can end it all. If in doubt then weigh the risks.

[KevinHunt]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

Common sense? m... there are lots of things in Thailand that are common sense but don't make sense. The fact is that if farangs contravene labour laws they can be expelled. What does make sense is that for many expats who want to make their life here and have maybe heavily invested - both financially and family-wise in this country - is that they make highly critical judgements before they embark on something that can end it all. If in doubt then weigh the risks.

Ask yourself the obvious question .. Is it likely that a Farang would be expelled for volunteering for a project such as this? 2 hours a week? Helping the local government? Not really. If I had the time or inclination for such a project I wouldn't hesitate. Technically, theoretically, ....... anything could happen. Is it likely ..... not really. Other than the odd nutter interfering in Thai affairs, I doubt if any volunteer has ever been deported or even fined. What would be the point?

If you want everything to be iron-clad with all the I's dotted and T's crossed then don't do it. (If you're that sort of person you must be hating being here!!) . If you are paranoid , don't do it. If you are SRIRACHAJOHN, don't do it . Otherwise, go ahead and enjoy yourself - I'm sure it will be very rewarding.

Edited June 16, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[Tyke]

The whole idea of work permits is really to prevent foreigners from taking jobs and therefore money away from Thai people.In reality noone is going to get very upset with foreigners doing volunteer work that helps Thai people.This is just common sense.It was the same principle as with the volunteer tourist police,who also do not need work permit,despite what some people claim in this forum and which people seem to get upset about.I do not understand why some people get emotionally involved with other people's work permoits,visas,etc.

Common sense? m... there are lots of things in Thailand that are common sense but don't make sense. The fact is that if farangs contravene labour laws they can be expelled. What does make sense is that for many expats who want to make their life here and have maybe heavily invested - both financially and family-wise in this country - is that they make highly critical judgements before they embark on something that can end it all. If in doubt then weigh the risks.

Ask yourself the obvious question .. Is it likely that a Farang would be expelled for volunteering for a project such as this? 2 hours a week? Helping the local government? Not really. If I had the time or inclination for such a project I wouldn't hesitate. Technically, theoretically, ....... anything could happen. Is it likely ..... not really. Other than the odd nutter interfering in Thai affairs, I doubt if any volunteer has ever been deported or even fined. What would be the point?

If you want everything to be iron-clad with all the I's dotted and T's crossed then don't do it. (If you're that sort of person you must be hating being here!!) . If you are paranoid , don't do it. If you are SRIRACHAJOHN, don't do it . Otherwise, go ahead and enjoy yourself - I'm sure it will be very rewarding.

If you read my message properly, then you can see you are agreeing with what I have written. I will repeat the main jist. With this situation, as with anything where breaking the law might be concerned in Thailand, you weigh the risks, as you have inferred. I didn't write that you don't do voluntary work. I am saying do voluntary work but think about it carefully first. Many people don't know about the law on voluntary work in Thailand. It was passed for a reason, so needs to be considered. It is not paranoia, it is common sense.

[PeaceBlondie]

I have just sent a polite letter to Khun Boong, wishing her well in her volunteer project. As Tyke says above, you weigh the risks. As an experienced English teacher in northern Thailand, I would weigh how much the municipal staff or the students in the schools are actually going to learn of the incredibly difficult language we take for granted because our Mum teached us how schpeak it. I volunteer taught at a local orphanage for a month, and a friend of mine still does. Nobody learns a foreign language in a few hours per week.

[sylviex]

In this week's Chiang Mai Mail (print version, but perhaps not the online version) Mark Whitman of the "Life in Chiang Mai" column reports that recently the Voluntary Service Overseas (VSO) announced that "Thailand no longer needed help, adding - with justification - that the Kingdom was wealthy and developed enough to stand alone. Of course there are still areas of poverty - as there are in every country in Europe and every area of the USA for example but nothing that justified their intervention".

What do you think ? Time for volunteer groups to stand back a little so Thais can stand alone ? Or still a genuine need ?

Which are the more worthwhile volunteer organizations in Chiang Mai ? (Add your experiences, if possible.)

Edited June 19, 2008 by sylviex

[bassmaster50]

I am retired from law enforcement is US where I worked as an investigator for a state agency and also I have worked 15 years as a private investigator.Although I am retired I have much experience dealing with cases involving child abuse,pedophiles and human trafficking and am more than willing to work on volunteer basis for any NGO or group who is involved in fighting these evil crimes.There are many many NGOs involved in this according to the internet but I figured maybe there are people on this forum who are either doing volunteer work in this area or know someone who is.I am of course willing to go through any background checks or obtain work permits as required.

[Tyke]

I am retired from law enforcement is US where I worked as an investigator for a state agency and also I have worked 15 years as a private investigator.Although I am retired I have much experience dealing with cases involving child abuse,pedophiles and human trafficking and am more than willing to work on volunteer basis for any NGO or group who is involved in fighting these evil crimes.There are many many NGOs involved in this according to the internet but I figured maybe there are people on this forum who are either doing volunteer work in this area or know someone who is.I am of course willing to go through any background checks or obtain work permits as required.

Hope you realise that to obtain a work permit you would have to give up your retirement visa, if that is what you are currently on?

[PeaceBlondie]

Hope you realise that to obtain a work permit you would have to give up your retirement visa, if that is what you are currently on?

Who knows? I thought there were confirmed reports, by Sunbelt Asia, that holders of O retirement visas could get work permits.

[sylviex]

If someone were required to convert from retirement to volunteer status, what difficulties might that present ?

[Mario2008]

I am retired from law enforcement is US where I worked as an investigator for a state agency and also I have worked 15 years as a private investigator.Although I am retired I have much experience dealing with cases involving child abuse,pedophiles and human trafficking and am more than willing to work on volunteer basis for any NGO or group who is involved in fighting these evil crimes.There are many many NGOs involved in this according to the internet but I figured maybe there are people on this forum who are either doing volunteer work in this area or know someone who is.I am of course willing to go through any background checks or obtain work permits as required.

Not doing volunteer work in this area myself, but you could contact ecpat:

http://www.ecpat.com/EI/main/front/index.asp

If they are not interested they should at least be able to give you some directions. Good luck!

[Mario2008]

If someone were required to convert from retirement to volunteer status, what difficulties might that present ?

Can't see any difficulties, as there is no age limit on getting a WP. For a non-O on volunteer base you don't need to show any income. But the important thing is that you do need to do volunteer work with a registered charity or a government organization. An important disadvantage will be that loosing the volunteer work will mean losing the WP and with that you would have to leave the country in 1 day. Which you can extent with 7 days by paying 1,900 baht.

[sylviex]

An important disadvantage will be that loosing the volunteer work will mean losing the WP and with that you would have to leave the country in 1 day. Which you can extent with 7 days by paying 1,900 baht.

Ah, yes. Good point. That explains quite a bit to me about why people are willing to work illegally.

[bassmaster50]

Thank you everyone for the good advice.I did contact ecpat and they were very helpful.Also received alot of information from a well known author who is involved in this field,but I will not mention his name here as he did not give permission and maybe it is also against the rules of this forum.I also must thank those people for information about work permit and retirement visa,as it is technically not permitted to have both.However,there are ways around this,I am told,if you are working for a registered organization.Especially Thai organization.

[Tyke]

Thank you everyone for the good advice.I did contact ecpat and they were very helpful.Also received alot of information from a well known author who is involved in this field,but I will not mention his name here as he did not give permission and maybe it is also against the rules of this forum.I also must thank those people for information about work permit and retirement visa,as it is technically not permitted to have both.However,there are ways around this,I am told,if you are working for a registered organization.Especially Thai organization.

Mmmmmmmmmmm............ Basemaster50, I wouldn't rely on any of the sources you have just quoted, or anyone else has quoted, including SunbeltAsia. In Thailand, it often depends on what happens on the day you apply and what official you are dealing with. Rumours, reliable info, websites, friends, 'authors in the know' amount to nothing if your status is at risk. Your original sentiment is noble, but as with all good intentions, the officaldom kicks in and all the enthusiasm of someone newly arrived in Thailand and raring to go on a voluntary quest gets burnt out. The only way if you really want to do charity work is to just to go ahead and ignore the bureaucracy (and stop using Thaivisa!).

[Mario2008]

Tyke, there is no problem in getting a WP for volunteer work. They only problem lies with some of the the charities themselves, as they don't know how to go about the paperwork. Charities with international volunteers in general know and have no problems.

[Loaded]

I'm pretty sure a charity here has to be a foundation.

[Tyke]

Tyke, there is no problem in getting a WP for volunteer work. They only problem lies with some of the the charities themselves, as they don't know how to go about the paperwork. Charities with international volunteers in general know and have no problems.

Mario, I agree, it may not be difficult to change status to get a WP but, from what has been written here, there is a conflict if you are on a retirement or tourist visa. It might be easy to get a WP but then what happens if you stop the work? according to you, you have to leave the country toute suite or pay money (again!). Is it really worth all the hassle?

[Mario2008]

Working as a tourist is not allowed. On a retirement visa, it seems to depend pretty much on the labor department you are working with. That is what Sunbelt is telling at least. So it might be possible, just check with the local labor office.

If you have to change a non-immigrant based on retirement to volunteer work, that is indeed something to consider. Especially if you are under a "grandfather clause"

And the current rules about leaving the country when you lose your WP are indeed harsh, to say the least. But do realize that you can change your visa back from volunteer to retirement.

[junglejane]

Hi

Ive come to Chiang Mai to work as a volunteer for the Elephant Nature Park but this topic has got me worried that I may be breaking the law. I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation that I definitely dont need a work permit and everything will be fine but the posts here appear to contradict that. I am quite firightened that there will be consequences. Can someone give me some advice as to whether to go ahead with the work or will I be leaving myself open for trouble with the Thai authorities?

Thank you

[Ulysses G.]

Can someone give me some advice as to whether to go ahead with the work or will I be leaving myself open for trouble with the Thai authorities?

Thank you

In my opinion, you are taking a real chance of being arrested and thrown out of the country.

[sriracha john]

Hi

Ive come to Chiang Mai to work as a volunteer for the Elephant Nature Park but this topic has got me worried that I may be breaking the law. I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation that I definitely dont need a work permit and everything will be fine but the posts here appear to contradict that. I am quite firightened that there will be consequences. Can someone give me some advice as to whether to go ahead with the work or will I be leaving myself open for trouble with the Thai authorities?

Thank you

Check first with these very same authorities you are concerned about:

Chiang Mai Labour Office

City Hall

Mae Rim Road

[KevinHunt]

Hi

Ive come to Chiang Mai to work as a volunteer for the Elephant Nature Park but this topic has got me worried that I may be breaking the law. I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation that I definitely dont need a work permit and everything will be fine but the posts here appear to contradict that. I am quite firightened that there will be consequences. Can someone give me some advice as to whether to go ahead with the work or will I be leaving myself open for trouble with the Thai authorities?

Thank you

They've been in operation for quite a few years and are very respected. I've never heard of anyone having a problem. If you're the nervous type then contact them direct. To quote their site....

http://www.elephantnaturefoundation.org/go/volunteer

If you have any questions regarding our volunteer program, please email us at [email protected].

Panic merchants may advise otherwise.

Edited June 21, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[sriracha john]

Hi

I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation

If you're the nervous type then contact them direct.

Your advice might be helped if you read her post.

[KevinHunt]

Hi

I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation

If you're the nervous type then contact them direct.

Your advice might be helped if you read her post.

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

The fact that the volunteers pay for the pleasure may also change things. Ask them. I'd say.

I'd volunteer if I had the time or inclination.

Edited June 21, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[Mario2008]

That isn't volunteer work, that's just a clever disguised tour.

Officially you need a WP for volunteer work, but it is highly unlikely somebody is going to check and if they do check I'm sure the foundation will give an answer like I gave above. Because you will be paying, just like on a tour. It is just a tour.

[sriracha john]

Hi

I have been told by the Elephant Nature Foundation

If you're the nervous type then contact them direct.

Your advice might be helped if you read her post.

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

The fact that the volunteers pay for the pleasure may also change things. Ask them. I'd say.

I'd volunteer if I had the time or inclination.

If someone had run into problems in the past with them, you'd expect them to fully disclose that to a perspective volunteer?

That's like going to a restaurant and asking them if anyone has ever gotten sick there before from the food. Why not simply ask the Public Health if the restaurant has had any problems in the past.... or in this case, the Labour Office.

[sylviex]

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

Let's say a scandal erupted involving an illegal volunteer worker (not at all hard to imagine this happening). Thailand would be forced by the glare of international publicity to enforce its own laws and some people might be jailed/deported.

Or let's say an illegal volunteer got on the wrong side of an Important Person, who proceeded to make life difficult for them. One way would be to see the law on working without a permit enforced.

There are numerous other scenarios which suggest to me that it's best to err on the side of caution when it comes to breaking the law in a foreign country.

Edited June 21, 2008 by sylviex

[Mario2008]

I agree with sylviex. While here as tourist I had no problem doing volunteer work without a WP. But now I live here I play by the rules. The scenarios sylviex describe could become all to real at any moment.

[KevinHunt]

My point is that they have the practical experience to best answer the question. If in practice no volunteer has ever had a problem then that suggests that the reality is different from the theoreical answers available here.

Let's say a scandal erupted involving an illegal volunteer worker (not at all hard to imagine this happening). Thailand would be forced by the glare of international publicity to enforce its own laws and some people might be jailed/deported.

Or let's say an illegal volunteer got on the wrong side of an Important Person, who proceeded to make life difficult for them. One way would be to see the law on working without a permit enforced.

There are numerous other scenarios which suggest to me that it's best to err on the side of caution when it comes to breaking the law in a foreign country.

So, in a nutshell - if you want to have a great (nay 'memorable') time at the Elephant Nature Park, as I'm sure you will , then go for it. However, if you think that some great scandal may erupt whilst you are there (extremely unlikely) or you anticipate upsetting an Important Person - (I don't know you personally but at a guess ..... hard to imagine) then don't do it.

Err on the side of caution by all means, but err on the side of the almost laughably unlikely???????? I wouldn't.

However, what you might want to consider before you even come to Thailand , if you're the nervous type ... SARS, or Bird Flu or tsunamis and military coups (not at all hard to imagine this happening).

If I had the time or inclination ......... I wouldn't hesitate. In the least.

By the way, this is showing the posted time as 5.37 but it's only 4.37? The match has just finished but I'm not planning on staying up that late!! Anyway, at least it explains half of my last statement.

Edited June 21, 2008 by KevinHUNT

[Tyke]

1. Definition

. . . " Work " means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits.

In the amateur opinion of this retired American bureaucrat and English teacher . . . ecause the sentence says "whether or not" the definition would mean (in English) that consideration does not matter, whether in wages or in other benefits. . . . . Work is exerting energy or using knowledge, period.

My goodness! So I am not allowed, among other things, to clean my house, wash my dishes or repair my scooter. Most excellent!

It's Ok as long as they don't catch you at it. Do it after dark, when the Labour office is closed should be Ok, but be quiet about it.