Baht Bus Article - Pattayamail 6th June - Page 2

[Cuban]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

[Woofer]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

[soundman]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

And the logical increase form 10B - 20B for foreigners.....

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

[telaksslave]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

And the logical increase form 10B - 20B for foreigners.....

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

farangs take more room they have bigger butts

[basjke]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

And the logical increase form 10B - 20B for foreigners.....

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

farangs take more room they have bigger butts

Probably their butt shows so big because their pockets full of money.

[Kerryd]

And the logical increase form 10B - 20B for foreigners.....

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

Because they've (usually) been able to get away with it.

But while you (all of you) are thinking about this horrendous news, take a moment to consider something. For as long as I can remember, the fare has been (5/10) baht. Even way back when gas was a mere 17 baht a liter (or less). It has been the same fare for YEARS now.

Can't rightfully expect that the price would never go up eventually, especially as the price of fuel has increased dramatically recently.

And seriously, if a 10/20 baht fare is too expensive, especially considering that you could travel miles and miles for that one paltry fare, then perhaps you should try going back to the home country and seeing what fares are like back there. Go to a place where as soon as you close the cab door, the meter starts at 100+ baht (equivalent).

I know. Try an experiment. Get a metered cab to take you from the corner of Pattaya Tai and #2 Road, to the Big C in North Pattaya, and then back again.

Compare that fare to the (20) baht it would cost to do the same thing in a baht bus (10 baht for a Thai, or a wily farang)

Or, take a cab from the same intersection (going the other way) and take a trip to Jomtien and back. Compare that to the baht bus fare.

I know the baht bus mafia has a bad reputation, but I for one have never had a problem with them. I've even had the drivers help me load and unload furniture, and help carry it up to my apartment.

I don't think a small fare increase is out of line at all. Would be nice if it applied to everyone, but I imagine (from their point of view), there aren't many farangs (expat or tourist) struggling to get by on 5,000 baht a month salaries, but there are 10s of thousands of Thais doing that.

If all the expats and tourists in Pattaya were getting by on salaries similar to the what locals are living on, then it would make sense to have one fare fit all.

[007]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

If it is 5 Baht, then they shamelessly take advantage of tourists and expats alike. I don't want to think about how often I was asked to pay more than 5 Baht and how often I was even threatened when I paid only (the legal minimum) of 5 Baht. I therefore do not have pity with this baht bus mafia, and I hope that the price will remain the same for years to come.

Edited June 6, 2008 by 7

[007]

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

Neither can I. I work in Thailand, teaching a range of subjects to Thais as well as expats. And I don't charge different prices to different nationalities, as I would consider this as being racist.

Edited June 6, 2008 by 7

[MisterFingers]

I don't think a small fare increase is out of line at all. Would be nice if it applied to everyone, but I imagine (from their point of view), there aren't many farangs (expat or tourist) struggling to get by on 5,000 baht a month salaries, but there are 10s of thousands of Thais doing that.

If all the expats and tourists in Pattaya were getting by on salaries similar to the what locals are living on, then it would make sense to have one fare fit all.

So why not extend this logic? Charge everything to everyone according to what you think their income should be. (Not gonna work)

In my country of Canada, everyone pays the same for a Tim Horton's coffee whether he's a millionaire or a poor student.

This goes for the price of every good and service charged by a private business in Canada.

This is a fact of life. Some people are richer than others. One of the benefits of being richer is you can by more things than others.

And let's face it, these baht bus drivers are not modern day Robin Hoods.

They simply overcharge foreigners to fill their own pockets. And, unfortunately, nobody's stopping them.

If they were stopped from doing this, many of them would have to find a better way to make a living.

There would be fewer baht buses on the road and therefore much less traffic congestion.

And the remaining baht buses would survive because they'd have more fares because of the fewer buses.

Edited June 6, 2008 by MisterFingers

[plasticpig]

name='7' date='2008-06-06 16:31:17' post='2019444']

If it is 5 Baht, then they shamelessly take advantage of tourists and expats alike. I don't want to think about how often I was asked to pay more than 5 Baht and how often I was even threatened when I paid only (the legal minimum) of 5 Baht. I therefore do not have pity with this baht bus mafia, and I hope that the price will remain the same for years to come.

Your so right, it's not just the baht bus system, the double price thing is all over Thailand.

Yes Shameless.

some people even think its ok, they even make comparssions to other countries

what's that all about, highly relevant, Not.

Even had one do the drive off when empty as I went to get in the back, yesterday.

Bunch of A-holes and there supporters.

Just ask the local Thai people what they think about the baht bus drivers.

Be sure it won,t be nice things.

BTW, I do agree a slight increase due to fuel costs.

Edited June 6, 2008 by plasticpig

[Taijitu]

But while you (all of you) are thinking about this horrendous news, take a moment to consider something. For as long as I can remember, the fare has been (5/10) baht. Even way back when gas was a mere 17 baht a liter (or less). It has been the same fare for YEARS now.

Can't rightfully expect that the price would never go up eventually, especially as the price of fuel has increased dramatically recently.

Yes, that's correct and go even further back. I have lived in Pattaya since 1992 and, at that time, a litre of diesel fuel was 4 baht and the baht bus fare was 5 baht. Now diesel fuel costs nearly 40 baht per litre so I can't understand why these miserly people are whinging about paying even 10 baht now. And please, don't talk about principles ...the graveyards are full of people who said that they had principles.

[roygsd]

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

Beause they can..................

roy gsd

[thaihome]

That’s the beauty of the free market. The seller can charge what he can get away with and consumer can choose to pay or not.

Why do people take this so personal? It certainly is not racist, it is pure and simple economics.

TH

[edwardandtubs]

That's the beauty of the free market. The seller can charge what he can get away with and consumer can choose to pay or not.

Why do people take this so personal? It certainly is not racist, it is pure and simple economics.

TH

It's a public transport system so the free market doesn't really apply. If there were different transport options available to the consumer then that would be a free market but the baht bus mafia use corruption and violence to prevent a free market. There's no other safe alternative.

As for prices many parts of Thailand now charge 7 or 8 baht to everyone for a baht bus ride. The problem for Pattaya's baht bus mafia is that for short rides 20 baht will get you a motorbike taxi so they might price themselves out of the market with a price hike to 20 baht. An alternative would be to increase prices to 7/12 but this would create too much confusion.

Edited June 6, 2008 by edwardandtubs

[Kerryd]

In my country of Canada, everyone pays the same for a Tim Horton's coffee whether he's a millionaire or a poor student.

This goes for the price of every good and service charged by a private business in Canada.

I'll bet there are a lot of foreign students at UBC right now that wish that were so (UBC charges foreign students up to 4 times the tuition that it charges Canadian students).

(Yes, I'm Canadian as well)

(and even poor students in Canada are usually better off than the waitress/cook/clerk/laundry worker/etc earning the equivalent of $180 Cdn per month)

This is a fact of life. Some people are richer than others. One of the benefits of being richer is you can by (buy) more things than others.

And can afford a measly 5 baht extra for a fare.

And let's face it, these baht bus drivers are not modern day Robin Hoods.

They simply overcharge foreigners to fill their own pockets. And, unfortunately, nobody's stopping them.

I agree (on all three points).

I've also noticed that the "10 baht" they (try) to charge (most) foreigners hasn't gone up in years.

Here in AssCrackistan, the vendors at the weekend markets often offer their wares at huge mark-ups, expecting people to haggle down the price (rule of thumb here is what ever they initially ask, offer them a third of that as your opening bid).

However, if people just pay the asking price, the $10 piece of junk this week will become $12 next week, and $14 next week (until it gets to the point no one will pay the asking price anymore).

The baht bus mafia hasn't gone that route though, or we'd be paying much more than we are now.

If they were stopped from doing this, many of them would have to find a better way to make a living.

There would be fewer baht buses on the road and therefore much less traffic congestion.

And the remaining baht buses would survive because they'd have more fares because of the fewer buses.

Doing what ? I'm sure if there were better ways to make a living, they would be doing it already. They surely aren't being baht bus drivers because it's what they've always dreamed of doing, and they surely aren't giving up better opportunities elsewhere for the privilege and honour of driving a baht bus.

Enforcing a "one price for all" policy would obviously cut down on the amount many of them earn. Don't think it would reduce the number of buses on the roads though (might increase the number of "disgruntled" drivers though).

And if there were by some miracle a large reduction in the number of baht buses on the roads, what do you think would happen next ? Maybe a sudden increase in the number of metered taxis ? How are you going to react to suddenly having to pay 70-80 baht for a trip you used to get for 10 ? How long before we hear screaming about the "metered taxi mafia" ?

Remember that last public bus scheme they tried, where they would charge 30 baht to drive you along the same baht bus route (more or less), but you got to do it in an A/C bus (with fewer options to get on and off along the way). Is that still running ?

Something else to think about. If you don't like the double pricing, you can always boycott the baht buses. However, even if ALL the expats/long-stay tourists and repeat ("knowledgeable") tourists were to boycott the baht buses, they'd lose what, 100 fares per day spread across the city ? (Keeping in mind that alot of those expats/etc have their own methods of transport, or walk where they need to go, or use moto-taxis and so on.)

Do you think the baht bus mafia would even notice that they were losing 1,000 baht a day from the fewer "resident" farangs, when there are roughly 50,000 tourists in the city on any given day (on average, over the course of a year) ?

If ALL the tourists were to stop paying the extra 5 baht, or boycott the buses, then it might make some difference. But what are the chances of being able to convince even a small portion of them to not pay the extra, or to not use the baht buses ? Slim to none at best ?

(just checked. The extra 5 baht that many farangs get charged works out to a whole 15 cents Canadian, about the same in US currency, .08 British pounds, or .097 Euros)

What's a draft Chang cost at Happy Hour ? 45 baht ? So one draft Chang would pay the "farang" surcharge for 9 baht bus trips.

[plasticpig]

Two wrongs always make a right.

Top Guys Bhat bus drivers of Pattaya.

You’ve never had it so good

Edited June 6, 2008 by plasticpig

[Chang_paarp]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

Even the Thais pay 10B, except for a very short trip. I think they want new price sticker for the back of the bus.

If you try to pay 5B the driver will say it is only for the students, along with some other stuff.

[Jingthing]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

Even the Thais pay 10B, except for a very short trip. I think they want new price sticker for the back of the bus.

If you try to pay 5B the driver will say it is only for the students, along with some other stuff.

For the more locally oriented runs, especially Pattaya Tai crosstown and Pattaya Klang crosstown, Thais pay 5 baht standard and on a crowded bus so can farangs with no heat.

[britmaveric]

Faire enuf - raise the price to 10bht. We've paid 5bht for long enough.

[JSixpack]

So let everyone pay 10 baht, fair enough. While you're at it, take half the buses off the streets.

There have always been three well-worn arguments to defend baht bus driver dual pricing.

The Robin Hoods

The Robin Hood, usually having been educated in some nanny state, holds that we should all passively accept as legitimate the right of the poor to cheat and steal from the supposed rich. For the Robin Hood, the baht bus driver is ever a Buddha-fearing, non-smoking, non-drinking, non-gambling, non-womanizing, thrifty, considerate, helpful, hard-working man just trying to put rice on the table for his wife and kids. There are no mafia godfathers getting most of the money extorted from farangs. If there is any organization responsible for visiting this horrendous traffic mess and moral and physical hazard upon Pattaya, then it is some sort of beneficent charity, the Baht Bus Driver Guaranteed Lifetime Employment Association (BBDGLEA) perhaps, dedicated to serving the welfare of the deserving poor. Money extorted and cheated from farangs is merely a noble contribution to that charity. It is a mystery as to why rich Thais do not wish to contribute similarly (and don't) or why farangs who don’t wish to contribute their spot “fair share” are threatened and assaulted.

The questions of whether farangs can afford to be cheated out of X baht as a corruption fee and farang tax, and of how much of any farang’s income should be, according to those who do not even know him, allocated to charity, are beside the point. In our farang case it is actually not the particular amount of money that we are being cheated out of by baht bus drivers that we continue to protest, though, if you use the buses daily, the amount could be significant over time. Rather, it is the physical intimidation, insult, degradation, racial discrimination, and ill will that we victims suffer as a result of being cheated out of any amount at all that is legally and rightfully ours. (Note that dual pricing is enforced through racial discrimination, since Malaysians, Filipinos, Indonesians, Cambodians, and Laotians don’t pay dual prices, because they look Thai.)

On some occasions the Pattaya police will actually recognize the farangs’ right to pay a reasonable and legitimate baht bus fare and defend them against being extorted by the monopoly.

The Olympians

The Olympian Axiom, often repeated among well-traveled golfers, maintains that “cheating and extortion happen everywhere: therefore ignore them here.” Answer: they don’t happen everywhere, certainly not to the extent here. Tokyo, Georgetown, even Bangkok (excluding tuk-tuks and recognizing that the taxis can on occasion be doubtful), to name a few other Asian cities, have fair, honest, and efficient non-monopolistic transportation systems. The Olympian Corollary holds that “tourist traps like the Crocodile Farm overcharge farangs a lot more.” Unfortunately true, but the Crocodile Farm is hardly an essential public service, even for its crocodiles, nor is it the only tourist attraction in town.

The Trekkies

Then we have the hip, open-wallet Star Trek Prime Directive argument (aka “Do As The Romans Do” or “No Wiles, No Smiles”) favored by backpackers and aged New Agers. The Trekkies divine that the farang, as a “guest,” has been graciously awarded an honored position as an agent of prosperity in a custom integral to Thai culture from ancient Siam--a custom known among Thais as ขี้โกง, or “Kee Gong.” To disturb the traditional ขี้โกง cultural rituals, in particular those of the Baht Bus Driver (as unenlightened tourists sometimes will do), by protesting or by bargaining or even by gasping and laughing incredulously would be to demonstrate ingratitude and disrespect towards our gracious “hosts.” Indeed, it would be to commit yet another crime of Western cultural imperialism in Southeast Asia. Hence what would otherwise seem to be foolish cooperation in one’s own victimization, like, say, jumping gladly into the boiling pot for a tribe of cannibals, is actually--wonderful to tell--embracing cultural diversity and protecting Thai ขี้โกง from possible tragic extinction from Mother Earth. (Fortunately, in part owing to the unceasing efforts of the Robin Hoods, the Olympians, and the Trekkies, the custom seems still very much alive and flourishing at present.)

The truth is, however, that average Thais in Pattaya also hate the baht bus mafia. Local Thais would also welcome an end to baht bus cheating. They would very much like it if a baht bus driver would always return their change; would always take the route to their destination that he promised at the beginning; and would not kick them off the bus for the sake of better-paying passengers. The locals are also disgusted by the erratic driving habits of baht bus drivers and the clogging of the streets with empty buses constantly beeping at pedestrians. Taking half those empty buses off the streets would mean a very substantial rise in the incomes of the remaining drivers in addition to greatly improved traffic conditions in Pattaya.

As it stands, however, the whole baht bus mess is made possible because it is subsidized by the cheating of farangs.

If you have lived in Pattaya for a long while, been dependent daily on the buses, continually have fought the unnecessary and hazardous traffic and pollution (air, noise, eye) that the baht buses generate, then you know what a plague on the city that the baht buses are. You know of the long history of assaults and physical threats and cheating committed (on a racially discriminatory basis) by the drivers against farangs who have attempted to pay legitimate fares. You know of all the failed attempts by city administrations over the years to rid the city of the baht bus stranglehold.

And you applaud and support any farang for making a stand against racially discriminatory pricing. However, most farangs in Pattaya are merely clueless tourists, and the others tend to be Robin Hoods, Olympians, or Trekkies, so very few will challenge the system

Edited June 8, 2008 by JSixpack

[Ulysses G.]

By far the best analyses of the Pattaya Baht Bus situation that I have ever seen, however, far too sensible to ever impress the Thais.

[sohn]

Very well put Jsixpack

Most Tourists just dont care. What a shame.

[TheWalkingMan]

JSixpack,

Spot on.

TheWalkingMan

[britmaveric]

Long live the baht bus!!!

[Kerryd]

Sometimes I've just got to shake my head.

Wow. All this over 5 baht !

Of course, anyone who has good stories about baht buses and their drivers has to be categorized as a "Robin Hood", "Trekkie" or "Olympian". I guess it's one of those cases where "I'm the only one who is right, and everyone that doesn't agree with me has to be categorized".

But I noticed, the whining, complaining, "I hate everything to do with baht buses and those that like them" types don't get their own category ?

Why is that ? Are these people the "holier than thou" righteous champions of freedom ?

The answer is really quite simple though, isn't it ?

If you went to the cinema and they charged you double for your ticket, would you keep going back ?

If you went to a restaurant and they charged you double for the same meal that your Thai friend had, would you continue going there ?

If you went in to a barbershop that charged 80 baht for a haircut, but they charged you double, would you continue going there ?

If you went into (Foodland/Tops/Friendship/etc), bought some groceries and at the till, the checkout girl charged you double the listed value, would you continue shopping there ?

So why do you keep using the baht buses ? They ARE NOT an essential PUBLIC service. There ARE alternatives. NO ONE forces you to use them.

Ahhh, but wait. The other options tend to be even more expensive than the baht buses, don't they ?

I'll bet that in an alternate universe, where the baht buses don't charge a satang for the fare, some people would still find a reason to complain.

Oh yeah, your arguement about how the Thais would like to see an end to baht bus cheating would hold more water, if you hadn't mention a couple paragraphs earlier that they (and others that "appear" to be Thai don't pay the dual price).

I'd say 95% of the people I hang out with on a regular basis are Thai, and I've never heard any of them complain about the baht buses.

What category should they be placed in ? The "Locals that are in Denial" category ?

[JSixpack]

But I noticed, the whining, complaining, "I hate everything to do with baht buses and those that like them" types don't get their own category ?

Why is that ? Are these people the "holier than thou" righteous champions of freedom ?

The answer is really quite simple though, isn't it ?

Yes, so utterly simple I'm surprised you missed it: they were not the subject under discussion.

However if you want to categorize them also, feel free. You could try, oh, "enlightened."

So why do you keep using the baht buses ?

Obviously because there's not a real bus system, taxi system, BTS or MRT as Bangkok has. Anyway, as with a lot of farangs who live here, the disgust got so great that I finally bought a motorbike. And that would have paid for a vast number of baht bus fares even at the farang price, but it was worth it to get free of that mafia, unless I need to move a TV or something. Even so, I stll have to deal with their erratic driving and traffic--and beeping if I walk anywhere.

I'd say 95% of the people I hang out with on a regular basis are Thai, and I've never heard any of them complain about the baht buses.

What category should they be placed in ? The "Locals that are in Denial" category ?

Passive, browbeaten, afraid of confrontation, and hopeless to effect change--common Thai attitudes. If you ask them how they feel about not being allowed inside a farang go-go because they are Thai, they will just accept that too as the way it is. However if you make specific inquiries of regular baht bus users among the locals, I think they will tell you stories like what I wrote above. How do you think I know them? They told me. And how could they possibly like that kind of treatment? Ask them if they don't try to carry exact change, because the drivers will steal any excess. The fact that the cheating is a bit different in their case is just another side of the same coin, so it is an argument legitimately used. But my point in that instance after all was that local culture really doesn't condone cheating, because the locals don't like it when they themselves are cheated, not to mention the Buddhist strictures.

Edited June 8, 2008 by JSixpack

[BugJackBaron]

I can only remember once being given 5 baht change for the 10 baht I gave for a very short trip in Pattaya.

I usually just give 10 Baht and am fine with it. What gets me is the few dishonest ones who insist

on 20 baht from Jomtien(soi 4 jomtien beach, not out in the boonies) to Pattaya.

I havenever seen a Thai pay more than 10 and that is what I insist on no matter what their protest(one guy got out and pounded on the taxi but I walked off after telling him to call the police if he didnt like it).

What is even worse is that in a popular tourist bronchure(u know the one that is obloong)

it reports the fare from Jomtien to Pattaya as 30 Baht. Outrageous lies or incompetence!

[Kaojai]

Without wishing to draw a thread with this subject back into deep debate, I noticed an article on page two bottom left corner of today's PM; stating that BB drivers have lobbied to increase their fares as the current legal minimum fare of 5 Baht is no longer economical.

Although I very seldom travel by BB I thought there was a fare increase last year to 10Baht?

The article makes no mention of any zones or routes.

The general accepted price at the moment is 10 baht for farang and 5 baht for Thais. They are probably talking about increase the price for Thais.

And the logical increase form 10B - 20B for foreigners.....

Still can't for the life of me understand why the price is different for the same seat.

Most farangs take up the space which could be occupied by two or three Thais.

[britmaveric]

What if you stand on end? (must get a discount then)

[jastheace]

[surprise surprise that this thread is so long.

i cant get my head around the bb system in pattaya,they charge what they like,and go whatever route they like.10 b is just for short journeys,they want 20 any more than 2 intersects.

why cant there be a system of numbered routes,which drivers follow FOR A FIXED FEE,like buses back at home,after all,it is a baht BUS.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE,HAS ANYBODY BEEN TO OR LIVING IN UDON OR UBON......?

I T W O R K S J U S T F I N E T H E R E ! !

yes,of course,it is a mafia related rip off business.

in the end i got peeved of to the extent that i just went out and bought a m/c.