Expats Posing As Us Residents For Banking/credit Purposes

[Ijustwannateach]

Sorry, Naam, the word's out now!!!

[toptuan]

I simply told my bank I would maintain a US address while temporarily working in Thailand (not defining "termporarily"). Fine by them! No ethical problem at all!

[Naam]

Having a bogus US address would make life easier for me, BUT, I think it's wrong so I don't do it. Why should I allow banks and/or credit card companies make a liar out of me?

maintaining a postal address in the U.S. does not mean you are a liar and a postal address per se is nothing "bogus". it's different if you tell your bank -when asked- that you live in the U.S. although you are residing abroad.

[Gary A]

probably a majority of US expats are posing as US residents to their banks, brokerages, state motor vehicle departments, credit card companies, etc., to make thing easier to live abroad, or even possible.

This is clearly lying.

Your post reveals that you have no clue as to the legal standard for residency in the U.S. In the future, I sugest you exercise due diligence and research this before you accuse people of lying. An ex-pat is someone working abroad who intends to return to his home country. If you intend to have residence in the U.S. in the future, you are still a resident of the U.S., regardless of whether you are currently living abroad.

So, I'm not an ex-pat? I'm retired and never intend to work again. I have no intention of ever living in the US again.

[Naam]

Sorry, Naam, the word's out now!!!

i have to live with that but nobody knows that it takes once in a while a blue or yellow pill to make my heinie more lively. nobody knows about that and my lips are sealed!

[Jingthing]

Definitions of who is an expat and the precise legal definition is kind of splitting hairs and really is not at all the point here. If you live abroad, as far as US financial institutions are concerned, you are NOT a US resident. And most of us according to my poll are lying. Fess up, sinners.

[ProThaiExpat]

Jingthing: Enjoy your inflammatory posts and usually don't get involved but you did post you wanted a serious discussion.

In a serious discussion, when someone makes a valid point and you don't acknowledge it, you are not being serious.

When a previous poster spoke of what definition is used to respond to a question regarding residence, you pooh poohed it. Well, so much for your being serious.

Suffice to say, there are different meanings attached to the word residence in the English language and yes it is splitting hairs. You choose to interpret residence to mean where someone lives at the moment.

There are many other meanings, such as "permanent residence", "temporary residence", U.S. address, ad nauseum.

I am very comfortable with using a lifelong friends home in the U.S. as my "U.S. residence" or "permanent residence" both legally and morally. The generally accepted English understanding of the words "permanent residence" is "where one can be reached, usually by mail" at any time.

Ownership of the residence, time spent living at this residence, or number of times you visit there physically over the years, has no interest to most, particularly most money making institutions whose "compliance officers" are profit driven and only give lip service to the Patriot Act.

There are many who find the "Patriot Act" offensive and enacted in the heat of the moment in an effort to legitimize a president who didn't win his election by a majority of the popular vote.

If you want to rage about morality, that is where the immorality abounds to a far greater degree than "splitting hairs", as you have described it, trying to find immorality in how one chooses to define "U.S. address" in response to the Patriot Act or financial institutions.

Edited June 9, 2008 by ProThaiExpat

[a2396]

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

hel_l is waiting for you

You can't be serious, I hope? If lying were a mortal sin, about 75% (or more) of the population would be heading for the firey furnaces.

[Jingthing]

If you want to rage about morality, that is where the immorality abounds to a far greater degree than "splitting hairs", as you have described it, trying to find immorality in how one chooses to define "U.S. address" in response to the Patriot Act or financial institutions.

You 100 percent misunderstand me. I feel using a US address and claiming US residence even when that is NOT TRUE is totally understandable, justifiable, and often a matter of dire necessity!!! And I am sorry if you live abroad and use a US address, you are indeed LYING when you claim legal US RESIDENCE. But I am saying this is an OK LIE.

I do think you are a major league RATIONALIZER. You may call me inflammatory but I prefer to face reality head on,

I only started this thread because another poster on another thread called this practice SLEAZY.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jingthing

[Naam]

This is clearly lying. This also clearly hurts nobody and is not theft.

hel_l is waiting for you

You can't be serious, I hope?

i'm not

[thaigene2]

I think we can see where all this going though - Western Govts want to know WHAT country we "Belong" to - f+ck em..

The funniest part of all is that the US thinks we're all 'clawing' at their doors to get IN. Now how many of us here want to do that??

No thanks.

Edited June 9, 2008 by thaigene2

[stuandchris]

Maybe this is a Yank thing. I am a Limey expat but am not a resident of Thailand even though I live here, as such I pay UK tax on my pension and am a resident of the UK even though I have no house there.

Residence and where you live are two different things.

[Jingthing]

Maybe this is a Yank thing. I am a Limey expat but am not a resident of Thailand even though I live here, as such I pay UK tax on my pension and am a resident of the UK even though I have no house there.

Residence and where you live are two different things.

Yes, I do think different countries handle this issue differently. In the US, citizenship (you usually never lost it), federal tax obligation (you usually never lose it, at least to file), state tax obligation (you can often lose it), and country of RESIDENCY are separated. US financial institutions usually want to deal with US RESIDENTS only, they don't care about your citizenship, they care about your RESIDENCY. If you are not a resident, some offer international options, but these often do not work for US expats (including me) to facilitate the money flow I need to show for Thai immigration.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

Jingthing, I think you have the burden of proof to give us a clear, legal definition of RESIDENT for this purpose, especially since you are calling many posters liars. Answering a $10/hour bank clerk's question, "what is your address?" is not committing perjury.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, I think you have the burden of proof to give us a clear, legal definition of RESIDENT for this purpose, especially since you are calling many posters liars. Answering a $10/hour bank clerk's question, "what is your address?" is not committing perjury.

I have no such burden of proof. That is in your imagination. Who are you kidding? I just raised a question. Look at most any US bank websites and you will see the question spelled out when you apply for a new account: ARE YOU A US RESIDENT or a statement somewhere that you must be a US RESIDENT, NOT citizen. State your STATE driver's license ID (NOT PASSPORT!) as your only allowed ID. You can't really be this silly or naive, can you? I didn't make up these onerous policies, now did I?

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jingthing

[retirednavyman]

Why would it be criminal or even simple lying to use a US mailing address for credit cards and banking as long as you don't claim that address as a residence address?

In 9 times out of 10, the mailing address is the residential address. I guess you could use a PO Box, but to do anything other than that would probably be against the law

[Jingthing]

Here is some "proof" from Citibank website:

To apply online...

You must be:

A U.S. citizen or resident alien, and 18 years or older

You must have:

A U.S. address, a social security number, and a driver's license or state issued ID

Note: a PASSPORT is not adequate. You need a STATE ISSUED ID. In many (all?) states when you apply for and renew your license you are signing a legally binding statement that you are a RESIDENT of that state.

I am not going to do this for every bank, I accept no such "burden", but this is typical and I assert almost universal for US based accounts.

BTW, if you seriously believe there are US based financial accounts that you can open without a US state CURRENT VALID ID, please list them here!!!

Wear yourself out ... we are waiting. Who will accept the "burden"?

For the people who feel the irrational need to express hostility to me for objectively spelling out the reality of our mass lying behavior, and the NECESSITY for it, please don't shoot the messenger. I did not make these onerous rules. I am just doing my best in a very imperfect world to deal with it, as are you.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jingthing

[ProThaiExpat]

Here I go again, "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread".

I have a ten year Hawaii drivers license. Renewable at any time. When applying for it, you indicate an address in Hawaii.

A good friend allows me to use his Condo, often rented. For safety purposes, change of address on file with Post Office to my Thailand address.

Once Citibank account is opened, no problem to change the address to Thailand.

How often do you open bank accounts?

Surely a trip to the U.S. to establish these "credentials", if you don't have them, is no big deal, if you haven't done so already.

Since legality has been mentioned, PB is quite right that an "oath" or "affirmation" is required before perjury charges can be lodged.

As far as morality and the law is concerned, there is no concurrence. An example: You often hear news reports of an individual pleading "innocent " to a criminal charge.

There is no such a plea. The law only recognizes "guilty" and "not guilty" pleas. Innocence is a moral concept, not a legal one. Many non-innocent persons are found not guilty. You are not guilty until found so by a court or jury in the U.S.

Morality issues belong in the domain of "faith based" beliefs, by definition, are not based on fact but on belief. Thus, moral issues are not rational, by definition not based on fact, and thus are irrational. A discussion of morality is a discussion of the irrational and hardly productive, unless, like myself in college, long discussions on such issues including "the number of angels dancing on a pin" are engage in. Mental gymnastics at best. Exercise away Jinthing.

Edited June 10, 2008 by ProThaiExpat

[a2396]

Here is some "proof" from Citibank website:

To apply online...

You must be:

A U.S. citizen or resident alien, and 18 years or older

You must have:

A U.S. address, a social security number, and a driver's license or state issued ID

Note: a PASSPORT is not adequate. You need a STATE ISSUED ID. In many (all?) states when you apply for and renew your license you are signing a legally binding statement that you are a RESIDENT of that state.

I am not going to do this for every bank, I accept no such "burden", but this is typical and I assert almost universal for US based accounts.

BTW, if you seriously believe there are US based financial accounts that you can open without a US state CURRENT VALID ID, please list them here!!!

Wear yourself out ... we are waiting. Who will accept the "burden"?

For the people who feel the irrational need to express hostility to me for objectively spelling out the reality of our mass lying behavior, and the NECESSITY for it, please don't shoot the messenger. I did not make these onerous rules. I am just doing my best in a very imperfect world to deal with it, as are you.

I think you also need a USA social security number. But, they may have provisions for accounts for foreign nationals that may have different requirements.

[Jimmyd]

I just returned from the States where I opened an account with a financial outfit. I had decided that day to live in the US, so I was legally a US citizen. I gave the address of the house I intended to live in. The next day I changed my mind, and now I'm back living in Thailand.

I see nothing in the documentation from the financial institution that if I move to a different country, that I need to surrender my account. If they inform me I do, I shall transfer my money to another financial institution.

I have several accounts with US financial institutions--and I have given them various addresses as I have moved around, including addresses in Thailand. By the way, I have physically been in Thailand 95% of the time for about a decade. I haven't lied to anyone.

[thaigene2]

A good friend allows me to use his Condo, often rented. For safety purposes, change of address on file with Post Office to my Thailand address.

...

Surely a trip to the U.S. to establish these "credentials", if you don't have them, is no big deal, if you haven't done so already.

Since legality has been mentioned, PB is quite right that an "oath" or "affirmation" is required before perjury charges can be lodged.

Morality aside - The issue of concen is that the Western Govts are slowly trying close the noose on free-wheeling expats. They are trying to determine WHERE you are RESIDENT. They've been using the convenient excuse of 'terrorism' and 'money laundering' to focus on who lives where when opening accounts for credit cards and bank accounts - but really it's all about extracting tax revenue from you.

US citizens have to pay tax on their worldwide income - most other countries don't impose such a rule - but they all want to know where you are, and if you owe them any money.

So when you lie about your address on your driver's licence or credit cards, etc, you leave yourself vulnerable to a court to come after you claiming your are a "deemed resident for tax purposes" and theyc an go after you for several years of back taxes..It's something to be aware of..

[Jingthing]

So when you lie about your address on your driver's licence or credit cards, etc, you leave yourself vulnerable to a court to come after you claiming your are a "deemed resident for tax purposes" and theyc an go after you for several years of back taxes..It's something to be aware of..

I agree with you that this is definitely a concern as so many of us NON US RESIDENTS still maintain US state IDs and ALSO have stopped filing our old state tax returns.

I also agree that there is evidence that the US government wants to SUPPRESS expatriation of US citizens. Word is the US government heavily influenced Panama (popular with American expats) to double the financial requirements to get residence there (non-pension based). The morality is clearly with us who are being truly American freedom seekers. And who is behind these US financial institution's residency requirements? The US government regulations, correct?

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I just returned from the States where I opened an account with a financial outfit. I had decided that day to live in the US, so I was legally a US citizen. I gave the address of the house I intended to live in. The next day I changed my mind, and now I'm back living in Thailand.

I see nothing in the documentation from the financial institution that if I move to a different country, that I need to surrender my account. If they inform me I do, I shall transfer my money to another financial institution.

I have several accounts with US financial institutions--and I have given them various addresses as I have moved around, including addresses in Thailand. By the way, I have physically been in Thailand 95% of the time for about a decade. I haven't lied to anyone.

Bravo, yet another world class rationalizer. Perhaps you haven't lied to anyone, except yourself? Or perhaps you are bipolar? People don't change their minds about what country they are moving to with the same casualness as picking a flavor of ice cream. Nice try, no cigar.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

Jingthing, I think you have the burden of proof to give us a clear, legal definition of RESIDENT for this purpose, especially since you are calling many posters liars. Answering a $10/hour bank clerk's question, "what is your address?" is not committing perjury.

I have no such burden of proof. That is in your imagination. Who are you kidding? I just raised a question. Look at most any US bank websites and you will see the question spelled out when you apply for a new account: ARE YOU A US RESIDENT or a statement somewhere that you must be a US RESIDENT, NOT citizen. State your STATE driver's license ID (NOT PASSPORT!) as your only allowed ID. You can't really be this silly or naive, can you? I didn't make up these onerous policies, now did I?

Jingthing: a "resident" has a very specific legal meaning which has been established through case law and many federal statutes which determine court jurisdiction. It is the place where you intend to live. Even if you are in a foreign country for several years, if your intent is to live in the U.S., you are a resident of the U.S. I am a lawyer. This is black letter law. Don't throw around terms, and assign a lay person understanding, if you are attempting to apply legal consequences to that definition.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, I think you have the burden of proof to give us a clear, legal definition of RESIDENT for this purpose, especially since you are calling many posters liars. Answering a $10/hour bank clerk's question, "what is your address?" is not committing perjury.

I have no such burden of proof. That is in your imagination. Who are you kidding? I just raised a question. Look at most any US bank websites and you will see the question spelled out when you apply for a new account: ARE YOU A US RESIDENT or a statement somewhere that you must be a US RESIDENT, NOT citizen. State your STATE driver's license ID (NOT PASSPORT!) as your only allowed ID. You can't really be this silly or naive, can you? I didn't make up these onerous policies, now did I?

Jingthing: a "resident" has a very specific legal meaning which has been established through case law and many federal statutes which determine court jurisdiction. It is the place where you intend to live. Even if you are in a foreign country for several years, if your intent is to live in the U.S., you are a resident of the U.S. I am a lawyer. This is black letter law. Don't throw around terms, and assign a lay person understanding, if you are attempting to apply legal consequences to that definition.

Great! So you are a lawyer. So answer me this, counselor. When a person who has lived abroad for several years (and intends to and will continue to do so) signs a statement swearing he is a STATE RESIDENT of a US state to get their renewed US STATE driver's license, are they or are they not making a false statement with potential legal consequences, (or as us commoners say, a LIE)?

And may I remind you, this is not a lawyer's forum. This is a forum for everyone, so I will bloody well throw around any terms that I wish. While I would hope you have more LEGAL knowledge than a layman, I wouldn't apply any other special qualities to a person who claims to be a lawyer, particularly on MORAL and ETHICAL questions (there are also many kinds of lawyers, many who wouldn't know the first thing about this aspect of the law).

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[A_Traveller]

As a non US citizen, may I point out that the real answer to this may be found in the several 100 pages of legal badinage hereinafter described as the REAL ID Act 2005, which came into effect on May 11 2008. In summary the Department of Homeland Security has changed the definition of 'principal residence' from the location where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and intends to return, to the location where a person currently resides even if this location is temporary, in conformance with the residency requirements of the State issuing the driver's license or identification card, if such requirements exist.

The reason given for this change was that the prior definition would unfairly prevent persons such as military personnel or students residing temporarily in a State from obtaining a driver's license or identification card from that State.

[Note the identification card points above.]

The stated aim of the act is, and I quote,

REAL ID is a law and rule that establishes minimum standards for state-issued driver's licenses and personal identification cards. REAL ID compliant drivers licenses and ID cards will allow you to board a federally-regulated airplane, access a federal facility or a nuclear power plant.

The REAL ID Act of 2005, was passed by Congress to make it more difficult to fraudulently acquire a drivers license or ID card, as part of the effort to fight terrorism and reduce fraud.

The act was passed, by the by, as part of the Emergency Supplemental Appropriation for Defence, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005, I kid you not.

Regards

Late Edit apologies, States have until 2011 to comply with all this so existing 'ID's still allow access to federally-regulated airplane ... et al as above.

Edited June 10, 2008 by A_Traveller

[Jingthing]

Excellent info, AT!

I do think this is correct. This may be news to long term expats; THINGS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE! Bush and his war on "terror" are likely over time to make things stickier for us expats who feel the need to maintain shadow US identities. I do believe many of us will be unjustly seen as SUSPECTS just for trying to run our financial lives abroad. Prison USA? I wouldn't expect any relief from Obama either, He will be under intense pressure to appear superficially strong against terror.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[PeaceBlondie]

Jingthing, you have called posters liars, you have had repeated posts by lawyers (not all of whom admitted it) about the law, you have hurled other insults, etc. Pot, kettle, black. Could this relate to your thread about how evil you think Citibank is, for not letting you open a new account? Banks cannot make you swear oaths or make affirmations under Section 1 of Title 1, United States Code. As the military used to say, go tell it to the chaplain.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing, you have called posters liars, you have had repeated posts by lawyers (not all of whom admitted it) about the law, you have hurled other insults, etc. Pot, kettle, black. Could this relate to your thread about how evil you think Citibank is, for not letting you open a new account? Banks cannot make you swear oaths or make affirmations under Section 1 of Title 1, United States Code. As the military used to say, go tell it to the chaplain.

Of course it is related. I made that perfectly clear.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2021776

I can't help it if you didn't read that. Another poster called me SLEAZY for misrepresenting my residency to Citibank in order to open an account (they require US residency). I wondered if he was right or whether we do this just because we have to and it hurts nobody. I don't worship windbag lawyers, do you? Because a lawyer pipes in, we must react in silent awe? And please do not tell me that many of us are not misrepresenting our residency to many US institutions. Only a fool would buy that. Whether it is illegal or not is a legal matter for sure, but many of us sure as hel_l are misrepresenting our residency.

I don't require a chaplain. I sleep like a baby. But perhaps some of the hostility to the truth of the topic I have raised is because I have STRUCK a NERVE a little too close to "home" for some people.

As far as calling other posters liars, I hope you don't take that too personally. To my simple minded but obviously truthful point of view, when a person who lives abroad, and intends to continue to live abroad, states that he doesn't live abroad, he is quite objectively lying. I do appreciate there are legal ways of twisting this so that it is not legally a lie, but in the reality realm, it is a lie. So many of us including me are liars. Deal with it. Its part of being human.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Jingthing

[vagabond48]

The focus of this thread seems to be on expats but the same argument could be made about USA RVers traveling within the USA, where some or if not many, no longer have real addresses. They generally use either a close family member's address or a mail forwarding company as their legal US residency for voting and financial requirements. I never heard anyone mention these people being sleazy.

I think the energy level of this topic borders on craziness. Man, between Burma and China, nearly 200k people have died and countless million are left "homeless". But I guess you could say the living still have their legal residence address intact. Lucky them.