Housing Rights Legally If Any

[Nickthegreek]

Hi,

Well without going into too much detail,I have rented a house from a guy who on the face of it seems fair and nice.

I have not paid him a deposit and I have paid him every month without fail in advance as was agreed,all by word of mouth,no signed agreement.!!!

On renting the house 4 months ago it was agreed that we would stay here for at least 1 year as we have businesses and it suited my wife and I well.

Shortly after moving in the owner of the house showed someone round and said that he was trying to sell.

At the time we thought nothing more of it, as he said he would sell it with tenants in situ.

Yesterday he called to say he had sold the house and we had two months to move.

I am fairly miffed at having installed air conditioning and only two weeks ago internet,whilst I know I can move the air,which will cost me more money, I will have to cancel the internet,same issue.

Where do I stand legally,or is there no legal stance in Thailand if you have no lease agreement?

I would welcome any advice..

Many Thanks

[Bisto]

Hi,

Well without going into too much detail,I have rented a house from a guy who on the face of it seems fair and nice.

I have not paid him a deposit and I have paid him every month without fail in advance as was agreed,all by word of mouth,no signed agreement.!!!

On renting the house 4 months ago it was agreed that we would stay here for at least 1 year as we have businesses and it suited my wife and I well.

Shortly after moving in the owner of the house showed someone round and said that he was trying to sell.

At the time we thought nothing more of it, as he said he would sell it with tenants in situ.

Yesterday he called to say he had sold the house and we had two months to move.

I am fairly miffed at having installed air conditioning and only two weeks ago internet,whilst I know I can move the air,which will cost me more money, I will have to cancel the internet,same issue.

Where do I stand legally,or is there no legal stance in Thailand if you have no lease agreement?

I would welcome any advice..

Many Thanks

Go find a new place Asap and stop paying rent. Cant see if it is worth the hassel no written contract enjoy the peace and move.

[Nickthegreek]

Bisto,

Some of me agrees with you,but its a little bit annoying when I have spent hard earnt money and only been here 4 months.

The general mai pen rai feeling gets dull after a while when its costing money hand over fist.

It would seriously make me feel better if there is some legal standing just to put some fear in him for a few weeks,while I pick up my home and move again..

Ps I am not bitter,just annoyed..!!!

[Khun Jean]

Being annoyed is common when being in Thailand and wanting something secure and contractual.

Without a contract you have no change whatsoever. You could transfer the airco and internet connection to the new owner if they are willing.

Waiting for an internet connection can be long and the new owner might be happy when it is already installed. I would!

Can you get in contact with the new owner? Maybe they are interested in renting it out or not moving in right away.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Khun Jean

[Nickthegreek]

Khun Jean,

Is that fact if i have no contract then I have no rights? or is that the current observations and assumptions that we all make in Thailand..

For my businesses I have contacts that are binding,of course if the paper they are written on does not turn invisible..However I am just trying to clarify where I stand.If I dig my heels in and refuse to move out what can he do?

I appreciate your comments on the air con and internet and they of course make sense

Edited June 9, 2008 by Nickthegreek

[Khun Jean]

Correct you have no rights whatsoever!

Even with contracts for 3 years or shorter rights are shaky. Once the lease is registered at the landoffice you are secure.

Digging in your heels in this case can result in anywhere between a police visit and six feet underground.

[Nickthegreek]

Thats what I was looking for some direct clarity,so thanks..

I will do the usual thing then I guess and thats put up and shut up...

One day we will all get some sort of support and I hope that will ripple throughout the whole of the Thai infrastructure,however I am sure it will not be in my life time..

Oh Well onwards and upwards..

Thanks again..

My rant for today finished....

[Khun Jean]

Well it is not the end of the world,more a big inconvenience.

You will learn from it, just like most of us.

For the owner situations can change, what is promised first might be impossible if something happens unexpected. It is not always on purpose. Maybe he really got an offer he can not refuse. You could try to remind him about your deal and who knows maybe you can get some compensation.

Even in my own country word of mouth is not the strongest 'contract'. If you find a house that is really what you want a written contract is vital. A duration, extensions etc can be mentioned but always keep in mind that when things not go as they should you are able to walk out of it without financial harm or too much inconvenience, just in case. If possible keep your options open.

Hope you find something better soon.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Khun Jean

[johnnyk]

Not wishing to be cheeky but "a verbal agreement is worth the paper it is written on."

Even less so in Thailand.

Chok dee.

Edited June 10, 2008 by johnnyk

[longball53098]

The days of the "handshake" agreements is over.

And the words "trust me" don't mean squat anymore.

Edited June 10, 2008 by longball53098

[Nickthegreek]

Khun Jean,

Thanks for the advice! I am nobodies fool,however due to the fact that this guy was a bank manager for a large bank I took him at his word,not something that I do regularly in Thailand.

You are right maybe it was an offer that he could not refuse,I also try to look for the good in peolple and I do believe that there are trustworthy people in Thailand,they are just harder to find..All that aside,I will not let my guard down in future...

Another lesson in the living in Thailand book.

[Nickthegreek]

I just wanted to add some more notes to this as I think it is importand.

The days of a verbal contact and handshake do mean something in Thailand.!!

I have taken some legal representation as I felt very strongly about this and it transpires that I cannot be thrown out of the house.

We have a contract be it verbal and the owner of the house must uphold that agreement..

As I undertand it he cannot make us homeless and must allow us to live here until the internet contract expires, as this forms the basis of a written agreement as he alllowed us to install the line..

[jasreeve17]

I just wanted to add some more notes to this as I think it is importand.

The days of a verbal contact and handshake do mean something in Thailand.!!

I have taken some legal representation as I felt very strongly about this and it transpires that I cannot be thrown out of the house.

We have a contract be it verbal and the owner of the house must uphold that agreement..

As I undertand it he cannot make us homeless and must allow us to live here until the internet contract expires, as this forms the basis of a written agreement as he alllowed us to install the line..

I hope that you are joking...

A best case scenario is that he will say he was unaware that you were installing the line, it was done against his wishes, and you will be asked to leave.

A worst case scenario is a violent one. All middle case scenarios are probably violent and stressful ones.

You have no contract, and the guy told you that he was trying to sell the house. What did you think was likely to happen (in any country)? I am tempted to think that this is a jokey thread because the answer is so simple - move out. He, quite, kindly gave you sixty days to move. It could have been a lot worse! You will be down a few thousand baht... irritating, but not the end of the world.

Don't stress out, you are in a lose lose situation if you try to fight it. It's not that bad. Good luck in finding a new place. Worrying about this will do you no good - you are on a hiding to nothing over... not such a big issue. Any advice you receive to fight this eviction will be ill advised.

[Nickthegreek]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

[lazeeboy]

good luck ,and be very carefull,if the house is sold and you upset the deal then be very carefull..........

[Nickthegreek]

Lazeeboy,

Thats a good point and one I will take on board..When I started this post it was to gain legal advice if any!

I do not want to go down the road of spoiling his house sale,however I was trying to avoid these costs brought on be this idiot,having asked for his permission only two ago to install internet in his house, which we of course only rent.To break the contract before its term end is a cost of 8,000 baht! Plus all of our other expenses,like removing the air and so on,It has just annoyed me this time that the guy stood in the house amd told us we could stay here for a long time.

I know that Thailand can be annoying but this time I do not want to let it ride.

maybe I take a risk of a gun shot,but lets be honest they would not have too far to look.

I dont think he is stupid,he may have just not thought this all the way through and I now know, that we have some rights..

Thats all I was tryingh to get too!

[ThaiLawOnline]

Article 538 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand (CCCT):

"A hire of immovable property is not enforceable by action unless there be some written evidence signed by the party liable (...)."

And in your case, it's completed in your case by 566 CCCT:

"If no period is agreed upon or presumed, either party may terminate the contract of hire at the end of each period for the payment of rent, provided that notice of at least one rent period is given. But no more than 2 months notice need be given."

Sebastian.

[0Mix1up]

Well there it is in writing, your screwed.

I tend to think that Thailand will more than annoy you in the future.

Best of luck finding a new place.

[quiksilva]

Yup its very similar to the UK's periodic tenancy law. Next time get a lease. After all they are there to protect both parties.

[Nickthegreek]

"If no period is agreed upon or presumed, either party may terminate the contract of hire at the end of each period for the payment of rent, provided that notice of at least one rent period is given. But no more than 2 months notice need be given."

Sabastian,

Thanks for this,but I originally stated that we discussed a period of a year,so does that not count?

[ThaiLawOnline]

Read again what I wrote before:

Article 538 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand (CCCT):

"A hire of immovable property is not enforceable by action unless there be some written evidence signed by the party liable (...)."

NOT ENFORCEABLE if you don't have some written evidence, meaning a contract...

[donx]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

I have two quite contrasting thoughts about your situation. On the one hand, I agree with the posts that say without a written contract you are in a weak legal position. Then again, I agree with you that after seeking legal advice why not follow the advice you have received. I am interested in knowing how this all turns out.

I remember another thread where ThaiPauly asked about what the likelihood was of him being able to stop a construction company from using a pile-driver next to his property. The vast majority of posts told him he would not succeed and if he did he would probably end up dead a few days later. Nevertheless, he successfully found a legal means to stop the pile-driving.

I do have a question for you. Do you know if the new owners are planning on living in the house or are they planning on renting it out? If they are planning on renting it, then perhaps you can try to arrange a rental contract with the new owners. Even if they plan on living there, you may be able to make an agreement for them to postpone moving in. This would not be very likely, but at least it is something you may want to consider.

I look forward to hearing how you make out.

[johnnyk]

The guy is educated and works for a bank

555

so what?

[bino]

And the words "trust me" don't mean squat anymore.

I've found that "trust me" is quite often interchangable with "<deleted> you".

[jasreeve17]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

I like principles and standpoints, but sometimes you have to call it a day. Your judgement is vital, even more so in a country unknown to you.

In any country you'd be on shaky ground (quick sand more like...). You have paid no deposit (which might suggest some kind of longer term 'agreement') and you have no contract, as well as having lived in the property for a short space of time...

In my humble opinion, if you are not prepared to lose 12,000 BAHT (due to your error in not getting a contract) then you are not properly equipped to live in a foreign (alien) country, and will have no end of problems here.

I am very happy to slag of Thais, and their habits, given the slightest excuse. But, in this case you made a mistake which would have resulted in the same situation in any coutry in the world. Now you are coming out with some ridiculous comment about your wife spoke to some bloke who works in a bank????? Face it, you took a risk (or maybe you believe that living in a property with no contract, paying no deposit and where the owner says he wants to sell the property is not risky ) and it didn't pay off. Cut your loses, relax, move and have a nice life. Good luck.

Edited June 12, 2008 by jasreeve17

[donx]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

I like principles and standpoints, but sometimes you have to call it a day. Your judgement is vital, even more so in a country unknown to you.

In any country you'd be on shaky ground (quick sand more like...). You have paid no deposit (which might suggest some kind of longer term 'agreement') and you have no contract, as well as having lived in the property for a short space of time...

In my humble opinion, if you are not prepared to lose 12,000 BAHT (due to your error in not getting a contract) then you are not properly equipped to live in a foreign (alien) country, and will have no end of problems here.

I am very happy to slag of Thais, and their habits, given the slightest excuse. But, in this case you made a mistake which would have resulted in the same situation in any coutry in the world. Now you are coming out with some ridiculous comment about your wife spoke to some bloke who works in a bank????? Face it, you took a risk (or maybe you believe that living in a property with no contract, paying no deposit and where the owner says he wants to sell the property is not risky ) and it didn't pay off. Cut your loses, relax, move and have a nice life. Good luck.

As a clarification, I believe if you read one of the OP's earlier posts that he is referring to the landlord when he says "the guy is educated and works for a bank". He doesn't mean that the lawyer works at a bank. He's trying to say that he would expect someone as respectable as a Bank Manager to honor his word. He has a better chance with this kind of landlord than he does with a landlord that buys and sells property for a living.

[Burgernev]

Nick,

Sorry about your situation, yeah it's out of order but from personal experience I know many solicitors here will advise anything to make some money.

Legal cases can take years here, you could rack up 100k+ legal fees with no guarantee of winning.

I wouldn't advise going any further with the solicitor than some letters to see if he compromises now, but I doubt it.

This small lesson might end up helping you avoid more costly problems in the future, I had a couple of small ones, many come off far worse as I'm sure you know.

Good luck.

[toptuan]

Don't forget to take all the light bulbs, toilets, sinks and detachable screens with you!

[jasreeve17]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

I like principles and standpoints, but sometimes you have to call it a day. Your judgement is vital, even more so in a country unknown to you.

In any country you'd be on shaky ground (quick sand more like...). You have paid no deposit (which might suggest some kind of longer term 'agreement') and you have no contract, as well as having lived in the property for a short space of time...

In my humble opinion, if you are not prepared to lose 12,000 BAHT (due to your error in not getting a contract) then you are not properly equipped to live in a foreign (alien) country, and will have no end of problems here.

I am very happy to slag of Thais, and their habits, given the slightest excuse. But, in this case you made a mistake which would have resulted in the same situation in any coutry in the world. Now you are coming out with some ridiculous comment about your wife spoke to some bloke who works in a bank????? Face it, you took a risk (or maybe you believe that living in a property with no contract, paying no deposit and where the owner says he wants to sell the property is not risky ) and it didn't pay off. Cut your loses, relax, move and have a nice life. Good luck.

As a clarification, I believe if you read one of the OP's earlier posts that he is referring to the landlord when he says "the guy is educated and works for a bank". He doesn't mean that the lawyer works at a bank. He's trying to say that he would expect someone as respectable as a Bank Manager to honor his word. He has a better chance with this kind of landlord than he does with a landlord that buys and sells property for a living.

You've made no point.

Come and live in my house; give me no deposit. We'll have no contract and I want to sell this property. - would you? I wouldn't. Would you be surprised when I tell you that I've sold the property and you have 60 days to move out? I wouldn't. Do you think that you have any reasonable recourse in any country in the world? I don't. I don't care who works for a bank. It's totally irrelevant!

[donx]

I am not joking..

I have been advised by a Thai solicitor,well my wife has and I have no reason to doubt the advice.

The guy is educated and works for a bank,I am bored with everyone always using this death threats thing in Thailand,is everyone scared and Thais never complain..I think not...

As to the internet,the only way that you can get these contracts in someone elses home is with there ID details so he knew.

As to selling the house,we moved in and then he informed us he wanted to sell it,not that he was selling it..

As for giving us sixty days to move well thats a joke,we moved in here and we were told sabai sabai by this gut,so why roll over..thats always seems to be everyone easy option,but the costs to me will be in excess of 12,000 baht and that is money that I am just not prepared to just give away,when I feel that I have some chance!

I like principles and standpoints, but sometimes you have to call it a day. Your judgement is vital, even more so in a country unknown to you.

In any country you'd be on shaky ground (quick sand more like...). You have paid no deposit (which might suggest some kind of longer term 'agreement') and you have no contract, as well as having lived in the property for a short space of time...

In my humble opinion, if you are not prepared to lose 12,000 BAHT (due to your error in not getting a contract) then you are not properly equipped to live in a foreign (alien) country, and will have no end of problems here.

I am very happy to slag of Thais, and their habits, given the slightest excuse. But, in this case you made a mistake which would have resulted in the same situation in any coutry in the world. Now you are coming out with some ridiculous comment about your wife spoke to some bloke who works in a bank????? Face it, you took a risk (or maybe you believe that living in a property with no contract, paying no deposit and where the owner says he wants to sell the property is not risky ) and it didn't pay off. Cut your loses, relax, move and have a nice life. Good luck.

As a clarification, I believe if you read one of the OP's earlier posts that he is referring to the landlord when he says "the guy is educated and works for a bank". He doesn't mean that the lawyer works at a bank. He's trying to say that he would expect someone as respectable as a Bank Manager to honor his word. He has a better chance with this kind of landlord than he does with a landlord that buys and sells property for a living.

You've made no point.

Come and live in my house; give me no deposit. We'll have no contract and I want to sell this property. - would you? I wouldn't. Would you be surprised when I tell you that I've sold the property and you have 60 days to move out? I wouldn't. Do you think that you have any reasonable recourse in any country in the world? I don't. I don't care who works for a bank. It's totally irrelevant!

Yes I did. You thought the laywer worked at a bank. I'm saying the OP implies that it is the landlord that works at a bank. If it's totally irrelevent who works at the bank then why did you say "Now you are coming out with some ridiculous comment about your wife spoke to some bloke who works in a bank????? "