Social Isolation

[unhappyfarang]

With regards to Sociology, I must confess, I am rather ignorant. But as I get older I can't but help notice that selfishness and greed must be contributing factors to the dysfunction of the Society of which I am apart - I live in the UK.

So is it a " Every man out for himself, ****** everbody else" attitude that contributes to Social Isolation, here, in the West? Of course everybody needs to make a living and provide Shelter, Food etc for themselves and in many cases a family too, so prehaps it's just the busyness and lack of time to think about others?

I am 33. When I was 26 I met, ( In Thailand), married, and brought a Thai girl back to the UK, where we now live, still together, 6 years later. One of the first things my wife commented on about life in the West, was the lack of community and the feeling of being alone, which is natural to somebody coming to a strange new Country from a considerably different Culture, in her case Thailand.

But she is still baffled that people can live, side by side in a residential street, all their lives and not even know their neighbours.

When we return to Thailand for our annual holiday and to see the family in Issan, and are in the village enviornment, with all the goings on, It strikes me how isolated people are in the UK, usually chronically so.

Anybody with a B.A in Sociology?

[Robski]

I think the standard is set by those that govern us. Just as a good role model in a community will shape the morality of that community.

They may blame societies ills those that live on the fringes of society, but are hypocritical in their own affairs.

I think the rules in UK and Thai society, are that honesty is the best policy and dishonesty is the second best policy.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Robski

[elkangorito]

With regards to Sociology, I must confess, I am rather ignorant. But as I get older I can't but help notice that selfishness and greed must be contributing factors to the dysfunction of the Society of which I am apart - I live in the UK.

So is it a " Every man out for himself, ****** everbody else" attitude that contributes to Social Isolation, here, in the West? Of course everybody needs to make a living and provide Shelter, Food etc for themselves and in many cases a family too, so prehaps it's just the busyness and lack of time to think about others?

I am 33. When I was 26 I met, ( In Thailand), married, and brought a Thai girl back to the UK, where we now live, still together, 6 years later. One of the first things my wife commented on about life in the West, was the lack of community and the feeling of being alone, which is natural to somebody coming to a strange new Country from a considerably different Culture, in her case Thailand.

But she is still baffled that people can live, side by side in a residential street, all their lives and not even know their neighbours.

When we return to Thailand for our annual holiday and to see the family in Issan, and are in the village enviornment, with all the goings on, It strikes me how isolated people are in the UK, usually chronically so.

Anybody with a B.A in Sociology?

Who needs a B.A. in Sociology to be a human?

I grew up in a smallish Australian town. Most people knew each other, back then. My reasoning for why this was so was because things like the internet, moronic & mind numbing 'TV series' & consumerism were not apparent or real at that time. In other words, people had to "occupy" themselves with others in order to avoid boredom. Now, many people just watch telly or use the internet for their "social" outlet.

Let's face it...there is little risk in socialising when it is done in a "non face-to-face" way. This could very well be a reason why "tempers" are fraying rather quickly in todays world. With less "real" human interaction, some people may not be learning or may be losing, "people" skills.

I totally understand your Thai wife. I quite often amuse myself with the amount of western people that abuse the word "community"...because they know almost nothing about a real "community". Obviously, your wife comes from a REAL community (people helping each other). From my experience, if you live in a REAL community, you only sacrifice one thing...anoniminity. Whilst anoniminity may not seem important or relevant to most people, people who are discriminated against (gay, mentally ill, overweight etc) may find this situation ok.

When people naturally "get topether", it is not because someone with a sociology degree is involved. If people won't "get together", I don't think that a person with a sociology degree will be able to change this situation.

Perhaps "western induced isolation" is, in actual fact, a way back to the core of humanity?

What goes around, comes around.

[Pepe']

I'm always surronded by students or patients. So when I'm done I relish my time alone. I really enjoy my own company and the silence.

I have a handful of close friends and am increasingly more particular who I spend my free time with.

I grew up in an urban ghetto, Italian, Irish, and black mainly. We did know more of our neighbors then.

I like the idea of community but I think I get that more from the Thai monks than neighbors here in San Diego...

[boiledegg]

There used to be a community spirit in England, but as families and neighbourhoods have been broken apart by factors such as divorce, mass industry closing, and people relocating all over the country for work there is no togetherness anymore.

In the UK when people dont have money the state provides whereas in LOS the family unit helps each other out, this dependence keeps people closer.

Social security in England has got to be the biggest factor in the break up of the family, and dont the young single women who get pregnant or <deleted> their hardworking bf/husband know this. The government in England enables single mothers to never have to do a days work until the kid reaches 8 at which point they only have to work part time and theyll still receive full benefits.

Who needs family when you have Nu Labour, with its Marxist views of the use of family.

When i visit my parents who live out in the sticks and people say hello as i walk by it seems strange as im not used to it anymore, its sad that its got like that.

Edited June 13, 2008 by boiledegg

[Pepe']

There used to be a community spirit in England, but as families and neighbourhoods have been broken apart by factors such as divorce, mass industry closing, and people relocating all over the country for work there is no togetherness anymore.

In the UK when people dont have money the state provides whereas in LOS the family unit helps each other out, this dependence keeps people closer.

Social security in England has got to be the biggest factor in the break up of the family, and dont the young single women who get pregnant or <deleted> their hardworking bf/husband know this. The government in England enables single mothers to never have to do a days work until the kid reaches 8 at which point they only have to work part time and theyll still receive full benefits.

Who needs family when you have Nu Labour, with its Marxist views of the use of family.

When i visit my parents who live out in the sticks and people say hello as i walk by it seems strange as im not used to it anymore, its sad that its got like that.

But aren't the big cities in Thailand much the same...

[boiledegg]

But aren't the big cities in Thailand much the same...

I guess your right people in big cities mind their own, but if you go on the BTS people do speak to one another, whereas if youre on the Tube in London people are scared to even look at one another.

When i spent time in Bkk and Nakan Sawan with my ex she always seemed to strike up conversations with complete strangers, that doesnt happen in the UK, maybe my scientific research involving one exceptionally sweet, kind and friendly person is flawed.

[apetley]

But aren't the big cities in Thailand much the same...

I guess your right people in big cities mind their own, but if you go on the BTS people do speak to one another, whereas if youre on the Tube in London people are scared to even look at one another.

When i spent time in Bkk and Nakan Sawan with my ex she always seemed to strike up conversations with complete strangers, that doesnt happen in the UK, maybe my scientific research involving one exceptionally sweet, kind and friendly person is flawed.

On the tube in London you need to be able to speak Polish, Romanian or perhaps Sudanese to begin to have a conversation with anyone else.

[GuestHouse]

I beg to differ.

My mother (at 71 years old and living in the UK) recently underwent a major operation for cancer. I flew home on compassionate leave to visit her in the hospital and after leaving the hospital went over to her house to collect some personal items she wanted, deal with mail and phone messages etc.

I rounded to corner to find 6 of my mother's neighbours mowing the lawn, weeding the borders and cutting the hedges - as they explained they wanted to give some practical help to my mother during the trial of her illness and recovery.

Here in Thailand we made a journey north two weeks back, taking my Inlaws to their orignal home town while we went on to our own home. The journey was proceeded by my wife's family moving anything and everything of value from their parent's house to the home of the eldest sister - Why? Because the concern was that in their absense the house breakers would be around - A matter that was almost the sole topic of discussion on the return south.

---

Are there problems of community back in Farang Land and in Thailand - Yes of course. But there are also some critical differences. 'Social Responsibility' has different 'flavours' between Thailand and, certainly the UK view on this. 'Public responsibility' is something that clashes in the west with 'individualism' and in Thailand with 'the family'.

The causes here are different but as has been hinted above, it is the human response that matters. Public spiritted people will find time for the 'Public good' selfish people will find excuses for behaving as suits them (be that 'individualism' or 'family' priorities).

However, there is something else to observe.

If an individual takes part in their community then it is most likely that their community will respond to them likewise. I'd ask those here who complain of the lack of community back home - what is it that they have done to help their community along?

This lack of 'community' seems afterall to be so much 'the other guy's fault'.

Edited June 14, 2008 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

But aren't the big cities in Thailand much the same...

I guess your right people in big cities mind their own, but if you go on the BTS people do speak to one another, whereas if youre on the Tube in London people are scared to even look at one another.

When i spent time in Bkk and Nakan Sawan with my ex she always seemed to strike up conversations with complete strangers, that doesnt happen in the UK, maybe my scientific research involving one exceptionally sweet, kind and friendly person is flawed.

On the tube in London you need to be able to speak Polish, Romanian or perhaps Sudanese to begin to have a conversation with anyone else.

So..... erm..... I take it you welcome foreigners to your own country with the same enthusiasm as you welcome yourself to Thailand?!

..... and of course you do speak Thai ... Right?!

[Jockstar]

I remember th first time i came to Oz. About 10 years ago. I was staying/working out in country Victoria. In a place called Swan Hill. My mate was from there and he was a sparky like me. His father had his own business. So got me a job. I was only there a week. When i went in for petrol. The lady says. Hello, you're that Scottish guy who lives with the McNeills. It freaked me out a bit.(as i wasnt used to it. I lived in London before that) I said. How do you know me? Her answer was someone told her. Small community 10,000 people. So they all kind of knew each other in town.

[tuky]

My Wife's first visit to Aust. resulted in her not wanting to go back.

Too lonely was here reason.

She didn't just mean the lack of neighbourly interaction, but the fact that where I come from the whole city of 1+ million people shuts down at 6pm.

There is nobody out and about at most times of the day.

If she wanted to buy something from the store it was a 10 minute drive to nearest

There was no noise.

There were no food vendors anywhere.

etc etc.

We seem to take peace and quiet, anonymity and minding ones own business as being a necessary part of our lives, but once you have seen the other side of the fence you can (if open to it) grow to realise that all of the above does make our home towns (especially Rural/Western Australia) as being lonely.

[PeaceBlondie]

There are generalities and exceptions to all the rules. I have a minor in sociology - from 1971!

Generally, urban areas are more anonymous, with very little community. Rural areas, the opposite, usually.

My daughter lives in an old-fashioned community, but it is rare in urban Texas Like my childhood was, families move in, and live there for many decades. The neighbors all know each other, watch out for each other, etc. She attends a church of a denomination which stresses community and true fellowship. By contrast, here in our gated moobahn, few people know each other.

Geographical relocations make us too mobile. I moved my children so much that now most of them try to stay rooted in the same place so they can develop long term friendships. My 30-something son sent his announcement of their new baby in Ireland to all his friends in Texas from their teenage years, still keeping in touch.

[lordofdelusion]

Just a comment on the US perspective. I think the "home is your castle" thing leads to high walls and isolation. This is mine! Stay away! Very odd for my Thai wife. Here in our condo complex, each day all the Thai wives, make food, and hurry around exchanging dishes back and forth. We always have at least 3 dishes on the table as the woman walk in and out of each house delivering the goodies. Unheard of back home. If someone walked in your unlocked front door there, they would be shot!

[JSixpack]

my wife commented on about life in the West, was the lack of community and the feeling of being alone . . . .

Perhaps it's just a difference sense of community. The West has an incredible array of social services for caring for people, and citizens there pay high tax rates to support those services and the fairness of the legal system that underpins the social fabric. Even non-citizens can take advantage of those. Western people certainly care about their parents and their own immediate families, but not to the fanatical extent you see in Asia, where, after all, children are the real old-age social security. Some Thai offspring, however, do quite a poor job of caring for their parents--such care isn't legally mandated or enforced--and in those cases a well-funded government social service would do a much better job. The Thai forced community and its consequent inevitable brainwashing seem to lead to a very narrow view of and lack of curiosity about most everything. Note how afraid Thais are of gossip and the disapproval of others.

Note all those pitiful child beggars in the streets of Thailand . . . where's the sense of community to help them? Beyond throwing them a few baht of course.

The West values privacy, individualism, and the freedom to be alone. One can certainly join all sorts of community activities and clubs in the West should he/she choose to do so. By no means does one have to be alone. It's just that community--a community not of one's own choosing--isn't forced on one as it is in Thailand.

Overall I should think that anyone reared in the West is glad of that fact and thankful he/she wasn't born a Thai, unless perhaps a hi-so Thai with fabulous wealth and privilege.

Edited June 14, 2008 by JSixpack

[Gary A]

It all depends on the person. When I lived in the US, I didn't bother to get to know my neighbors and was content just to be left alone. Living here in Thailand, I am the same way. My wife, like most Thais is a very sociable person and usually helps at weddings and funerals. She is close to her family and visits them frequently. Her family knows that I am a crotchety old fart and my wife normally goes to their house/houses to do her visits. I get along with myself and consider myself good company, so I never discourage her from being out and about.

[eek]

Sorry if this reads as a "me me me" post, but i couldnt see how else to write it. Im just trying to give an alternative viewpoint on 'community spirit'.

I grew up with very little privacy. My family were strict and watched my every move. The neighbors and 'community' were nosey and used an umbrella title of "looking out for one another" as a way of imposing themselves upon each other. Gossip and hearsay was the norm. My family obligations were a chore where i was expected to wait hand on foot on my older relatives/neighbours with good manners, whilst they often passed degrading comments about me. The whole 'close family/community' thing just turned my stomach and i couldnt wait to get away.

Of course, this is just my experiences and only a part of it, and others may very well have a more positive experience of what 'community spirit' is about. For me, i found it to be an excuse from others to poke their noses into your business.

BUT, am a good and fun friend to those i trust, although i dont trust people easy . I am also a long term friend and not a fair-weather one. If a friend needs my help, im there for them, even if its just to lend an ear. If i see a stranger having a problem that i think i can help with, I will try my best. Im not a cold person, im always happy if i make others smile and happy to stop and chat/exchange pleasantry's, but i do like my privacy and im quite shy and reserved.

I value peace and quiet. I enjoy sitting quietly with my own thoughts, in my own company. ..and although this may sound arrogant, disrespectful or strange, i often find listening to my own thoughts on things more interesting than some of the babble people come out with...

[apetley]

But aren't the big cities in Thailand much the same...

I guess your right people in big cities mind their own, but if you go on the BTS people do speak to one another, whereas if youre on the Tube in London people are scared to even look at one another.

When i spent time in Bkk and Nakan Sawan with my ex she always seemed to strike up conversations with complete strangers, that doesnt happen in the UK, maybe my scientific research involving one exceptionally sweet, kind and friendly person is flawed.

On the tube in London you need to be able to speak Polish, Romanian or perhaps Sudanese to begin to have a conversation with anyone else.

So..... erm..... I take it you welcome foreigners to your own country with the same enthusiasm as you welcome yourself to Thailand?!

..... and of course you do speak Thai ... Right?!

I do welcome the diversity foreigners bring to the UK yes and I guess what was meant as a light hearted remark failed to register that way and for that I apologise.

At present I am doing my best to learn Thai but it's an uphill struggle.

[0Mix1up]

Is everybody different or are we all the same?

[Shotime]

You learn to avoid eye contact, and mind your own business when you live in a city. Same in Bangkok, but for other reasons. It takes a village. People dependent on each other for survival. Poor, but actually much happier.

[GuestHouse]

Poor, but actually much happier.

[Shotime]

See.

[cluezo]

You don't need a B.A. in anything to understand this. Peopel in the west are more reclusive and with good reason. Chances are most of your neighbors are pricks. Or shut-ins. Asia is open and energized. Compare a London sidewalk at 9pm with one in BKK. One's dead, one's bustling.

[cluezo]

Is everybody different or are we all the same?

How could you even ask such a question? How old are you?

[PeaceBlondie]

I just finished reading a long essay about how the neoliberal, transnational capitalists and politicians are scheming to transform southernmost Mexico into urban centers, massive automated plantations, superhighways, tourist parks, dams, etc. To do it, they will destroy communities that date back thousands of years. It will displace indigenous peasant traditions of tending the crops by hand, of caring for one another, of being autonomous from the government. Sounds like an intentional effort in Mexico, but industrialization and urbanization has been doing the same to Thailand for a century. Yet in those indigenous communities, I observed a consistent practice of community that I have not found in Thailand, and surely not in Western civilization.

Natives should not have to choose only between a capitalism where every individual fends for himself, and a socialism where the government takes care of everything. Voluntary, community-based sharing has its advantages.

[Shotime]

I just finished reading a long essay about how the neoliberal, transnational capitalists and politicians are scheming to transform southernmost Mexico into urban centers, massive automated plantations, superhighways, tourist parks, dams, etc. To do it, they will destroy communities that date back thousands of years. It will displace indigenous peasant traditions of tending the crops by hand, of caring for one another, of being autonomous from the government. Sounds like an intentional effort in Mexico, but industrialization and urbanization has been doing the same to Thailand for a century. Yet in those indigenous communities, I observed a consistent practice of community that I have not found in Thailand, and surely not in Western civilization.

Natives should not have to choose only between a capitalism where every individual fends for himself, and a socialism where the government takes care of everything. Voluntary, community-based sharing has its advantages.

That's what I meant, but said much better. Maybe "poor but happy" wasn't the best. I lived in Mexico for awhile, and saw the difference there. How Dependency of community and family, etc. like you said, negates reclusiveness. There's no room for it. I haven't been outside the city here in Thailand, but I have to believe the same must exist here on some level. I'm no hippie, BTW.

[ignis]

Maybe it is where you live ?

I find it no different here in the Village, than in the Village where I lived in the UK, or in the Village in Portugal.

Everyone knows everyone were in and out of each other houses everyone is on Christian names ages 6 – 88…

Learning Thai is bad as everyone here is Thai, but all speak English, some very good and again all ages

Yes I have visited people in the UK in Cities, most that have no idea who lives next door let alone chat with them.

All my life I have lived out in the sticks = everyone in the area is part of the community

[JSixpack]

Poor, but actually much happier.

+1

Miserable. Offer a free ticket to the West and a job and the whole country would empty.

[Shotime]

See.

[jeffer]

Miserable. Offer a free ticket to the West and a job and the whole country would empty.

Nope, that would be the Philippines.