Security Tightens At Government House To Block Anti-govt Protesters

[toptuan]

It was reported on the PAD stage earlier that [ Thaskin } has left Thailand earlier today along with his entire family. They smell something burning I guess...

IMO, smart move.

Maybe you/we should be following suit?

[MaiChai]

65M elected the government? That includes children, teenagers and old folks too old to get to the voting stations

Maybe only those with degrees should be allowed to vote, assuming those with degrees have decent jobs and would not vote for anyone if given 500 baht? Then you would get a proper representation of who people want to be in power. Counteracting vote buying is difficult, and until this is addressed the crazy situation of who can buy the most votes will determine who gets into power (read this as the richest can do what they want and get more rich). Assuming the democrats would not lower themselves to vote buying means they would never get in office. Wonder how much PPP had to pay to get in power?

Most Thais need to realise that Taksin is history and supporting him now (via PPP) only serves to get Taksin off the hook and is not for the general good of the country. People need to move on and vote/support who they think would do good for the country, but then there is the vote buying issue...

[toptuan]

65M elected the government? That includes children, teenagers and old folks too old to get to the voting stations

Read it again, Wordsworthless...

"...the majority of 65M..." That's 51% or more of 65M--the number of people who elected the current government by normal democratic means.

You don't talk to many recipients of vote-buying do you? They take the 500B and still vote for whomever they want. The joke is on the vote-buyers.

In Thailand, education doesn't necessarily make a smart person. But often, it makes them elitist.

Edited June 21, 2008 by toptuan

[hammered]

Intersting to see all the Samak resign speculation along with leaks from allies he should go followed by swift denials. However, if does go what do we get, and here it is important to remember the military. To date he has given Gen. Anupong a free reign in reshuffling officers. If Samak goes then it is extremely unlikely that the PPP will have another PM or defence minister for that matter so compliant especially with things hotting up. It may just be that as much as some of the PPP want to replace Samak themselves now, that if the military stick with him Samak may be able to survive until at least the next military reshuffle. The problem being with this that sacrificing Samak is now the asy way to calm things down for the PPP especially as he has obviously outlived his usefulness and become a liability. This is quite messy as there are so many power players involved and as time goes on it seems that agendas are diverging in ways that mean there are no longer two obvious camps but lots of groups with only their own interests to protect.

[AA1]

One point which suprises me is that through the 12 pages the PPP is always described as the Democratically Elected Government.

Surely this is incorrect as they only won 233 seats out of total of 480 which made them the largest Elected Party NOT the Elected Government.

They only became the Government by going into coalition with some of the smaller parties.

If all the smaller parties which supported PPP now crossed the floor again and joined the Democrats then where is your majority Government?

Democratically with "The Democrats".

[hammered]

65M elected the government? That includes children, teenagers and old folks too old to get to the voting stations

Read it again, Wordsworthless...

"...the majority of 65M..." That's 51% or more of 65M--the number of people who elected the current government by normal democratic means.

You don't talk to many recipients of vote-buying do you? They take the 500B and still vote for whomever they want. The joke is on the vote-buyers.

In Thailand, education doesn't necessarily make a smart person. But often, it makes them elitist.

Of course the PPP were the biggest party after the election and so had a mandate to from the government along with coalition partners. However, they didnt get 51% of the population's vote. As the population includes children who cannot vote that would be nigh on impossible. A super mandate would be receiving the vote of 51% of the complete electorate which is difficult enough when turnout is usually only 70%. However, to win an election with a constituency system you usually dont need to get even half of those who vote and most MPs in Thailand are selected by constituency. The PPP actually received about 41% of the 70% of the total electorate who voted which was slightly more than the Democrats with the other parties and spoilt ballots making up the rest. Interestingly the 30% who didnt vote represents a larger number than 41% of 70% but that is a problem facing many democracies. We should also remember that when a government is elected it then becomes the government of all the people and not just those who voted for it. It is probably in this area that the PPP can be most criticised although to be honest they havent really enacted polices even for those that voted for them yet.

[nomoretalksin]

65M elected the government? That includes children, teenagers and old folks too old to get to the voting stations

Maybe only those with degrees should be allowed to vote, assuming those with degrees have decent jobs and would not vote for anyone if given 500 baht? Then you would get a proper representation of who people want to be in power. Counteracting vote buying is difficult, and until this is addressed the crazy situation of who can buy the most votes will determine who gets into power (read this as the richest can do what they want and get more rich). Assuming the democrats would not lower themselves to vote buying means they would never get in office. Wonder how much PPP had to pay to get in power?

Most Thais need to realise that Taksin is history and supporting him now (via PPP) only serves to get Taksin off the hook and is not for the general good of the country. People need to move on and vote/support who they think would do good for the country, but then there is the vote buying issue...

Like your last paragraph, so true! The vote buying can be resolved if the kanman's (head village), stop supporting only 1 party!

thaksin's financial "under the table - tea money" framework up-country has to be broken! That's the main priority, prior any election.

[toptuan]

Today has been a victory for the people and democracy so far. The people used their democratic right to demonstrate peacefully and that right was upheld by the police (kudos to BIB), without resort to violence or calling in the military. This is a big step forward on the way things have been handled in the past and it looks like some of the lessons of May 1992 might have been internalised.

The unsettling fact is that the previous bloody revolutions started also with peaceful protests. It just takes a few "crazies" (military, police, or protesters) to spark violence. That's why such protests as we see now (massive crowds carrying baseball bats, sticks, shields, etc.; pushing up against police and government buildings) holds such terrible potential for bloody violence.

Thailand has been very, very lucky in 2006, and this week. Let's pray the luck holds, and that the crazies' compatriots continue the peer pressure on those who would destroy peace.

[hammered]

One point which suprises me is that through the 12 pages the PPP is always described as the Democratically Elected Government.

Surely this is incorrect as they only won 233 seats out of total of 480 which made them the largest Elected Party NOT the Elected Government.

They only became the Government by going into coalition with some of the smaller parties.

If all the smaller parties which supported PPP now crossed the floor again and joined the Democrats then where is your majority Government?

Democratically with "The Democrats".

Yes Thailand is a parliamentary democracy and not a presidential one, so changes can occur in parliament especially with coalitions.

Also strictly speaking people vest power in parliament by electing their representative to go there. Then the parliament (legislature) select the executive (government) from amongst themselves or outsiders. Parliament also has the power to remove them individually or as a group. So strictly speaking a Thai government is not directly elected by the people although of course the government is chosen through the democratic process. We may be splitting hairs though in common parlance. However, the size of the PPP victory I would say gave them mandate to govern although it wasnt the overwhelming mandate that say Thaksin had or occurs in some western countries on occasions. It was more of a tempered mandate where obviously the views of a sizeable minority needed consideration when enacting policy. But that is getting into political science debates.

[Moonrakers]

All this talk of vote buying leads me to mention the fact that votes can be bought in more than one way, I.E. populist policies.

For example when told that they will get easier access to loans, the majority of the voters are unlikely to ask:

So how does the government plan to implement this without it adversely affecting the bank

or

Is it a good idea that we are offered loans without being sure that we can afford to make the repayments.

In any educated culture, if a party/president was to pledge tax cuts, for example, then the voters are likely to think:

Great, tax cuts BUT..... Can the government afford to do this and how will the decrease in revenue affect the governments ability to do it's job effectively.

Henceforth such populist policies can and often do backfire on whomever is proposing them.

As mentioned before on this and other threads, I believe that the way out of this is education which, unfortunately I cannot see being implemented effectively enough for some time.

Edited June 21, 2008 by globalj

[nomoretalksin]

Political sources said Thaksin Shinawatra and the core leaders of the People Power Party have agreed that Samak should step down to pave the way for Education Minister Somchai Wongswat, a brother-in-law of Thaksin, to succeed him.

reall all here:

-- The Nation 2008-06-21

Now that would be Thaksin digging his own grave even further. How can you bring in your brother in law as PM, while claiming

you washed your hands off from politics?? Thaksin really topples all IQ standards.

Further on have your just recent ex lawyer with the current Foreign Minister jacket on currently, declaring give-away temple to Cambodia, and announce with your business partner in Cambodia just one day later, the financial investment in Cambodia (deal!), with/near a new connection road (paid by Thai tax-payers) which just oppened a view weeks ago (for quick access to his new investment) by the very same people. Really no hidding anymore, hey? How long do the Thai people want to swallow this?

Noppadon (Foreign Minister) can really invite the PAD on Monday for some coffee and tea, and he will have some serious explaining to do!

Various previous FTA's were behind doors, new maps drawn out as well etc. etc. These guys are really unbelievable selfish, and so open! Amazing Thakland....

story continues.... with even some farangs ....complaining about people standing up against these blunt corruptions!

Edited June 21, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[h90]

All this talk of vote buying leads me to mention the fact that votes can be bought in more than one way, I.E. populist policies.

For example when told that they will get easier access to loans, the majority of the voters are unlikely to ask:

So how does the government plan to implement this without it adversely affecting the bank

or

Is it a good idea that we are offered loans without being sure that we can afford to make the repayments.

In any educated culture, if a party/president was to pledge tax cuts, for example, then the voters are likely to think:

Great, tax cuts BUT..... Can the government afford to do this and how will the decrease in revenue affect the governments ability to do it's job effectively.

Henceforth such populist policies can and often do backfire on whomever is proposing them.

As mentioned before on this and other threads, I believe that the way out of this is education which, unfortunately I cannot see being implemented effectively enough for some time.

agree on this: Tax cuts, higher minimum salaries are sometimes also a kind of vote buying, it gets a grey area.

[nick2k]

Political sources said Thaksin Shinawatra and the core leaders of the People Power Party have agreed that Samak should step down to pave the way for Education Minister Somchai Wongswat, a brother-in-law of Thaksin, to succeed him.

reall all here:

-- The Nation 2008-06-21

Now that would be Thaksin digging his own grave even further. How can you bring in your brother in law as PM, while claiming

you washed your hands off from politics?? Thaksin really topples all IQ standards.

Further on have your just recent ex lawyer with the current Foreign Minister jacket on currently, declaring give-away temple to Cambodia, and announce with your business partner in Cambodia just one day later, the financial investment in Cambodia (deal!), with/near a new connection road (paid by Thai tax-payers) which just oppened a view weeks ago (for quick access to his new investment) by the very same people. Really no hidding anymore, hey? How long do the Thai people want to swallow this?

Noppadon (Foreign Minister) can really invite the PAD on Monday for some coffee and tea, and he will have some serious explaining to do!

Various previous FTA's were behind doors, new maps drawn out as well etc. etc. These guys are really unbelievable selfish, and so open! Amazing Thakland....

story continues.... with even some farangs ....complaining about people standing up against these blunt corruptions!

you mean, the current government changed the borders of thailand WITHOUT getting approval from the thai parliament?

..doesn't sound like a democratic decision. more like a dictatorial one. interesting...

[ade100]

Hold on it looks like it’s all over. The protestors will all be returning home in a matter of hours. The revolution is over. Hopes for democracy have been dashed:

“It was reported Mr Samak told the security meeting yesterday one measure to get back at the protesters was to deny them mobile toilets.”

http://www.bangkokpost.net/210608_News/21Jun2008_news01.php

[nick2k]

thailand is confusing. looking in from the outside, you don't know if they are a monarchy, or a democracy.

[nomoretalksin]

according AL Jazeera 100'000 people?! What are the official figs? According TOC Chalerm said 50'000.

Any other figs?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pac...4447455789.html

Quote

News Asia-Pacific

Thai protesters clash with police

Protesters breached police barricades at the main government office building [EPA] Thousands of demonstrators demanding the resignation of Thailand's prime minister have surrounded the main government complex in Bangkok, the country's capital.

Security personnel held back up to 100,000 protesters for three hours on Friday before a group finally pushed through police barricades to reach gates surrounding the prime minister's compound.

The protest's organisers, the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), said the demonstrators would occupy the streets around Government House until Samak Sunadravej and his cabinet step down.

Major General Surapol Tuanthong, a police spokesman, said thousands of police were deployed with riot gear to try to stop "the mob" from getting close to Samak Sundaravej's office.

"D-day showdown"

PAD which has been calling for Samak's resignation for almost a month, declared the demonstration a "D-day showdown".

"This is victory for PAD and the peaceful methods we have employed without any bloodshed or clashes," Suriyasai Katasila, PAD's spokesman said in a speech.

Al Jazeera's Selina Downes said the concern now was whether the Thai military will intervene to control the situation.

In 2005, the PAD led rallies against Thaksin Shinawatra, the former prime minister, before he was removed in a military coup in September the following year.

Officials ordered schools and government offices around Government House to close.

Wichianchote Sukchotrat, a government spokesman, said the closures would "allow police to work smoothly".

All ministers, including Samak, were also either on leave or posted at other locations.

A group of government supporters also gathered to try to stop the anti-government march.

Proxy government

Despite claims of staging a peaceful rally, PAD's security wardens reportedly carried baseball bats, plastic helmets and wooden shields, some bearing pictures of King Bhumibol Adulyadej.

Protests have been going on in Bangkok for nearly a month [EPA] Lieutenant-General Aswin Kwanmuang, the city police chief, asked leaders of the planned rally to cancel it and not to "damage the country further".

"Political problems should be solved in parliament, not on the street," he said.

The country's stock market has fallen more than 13 per cent since PAD started its campaign on May 25 amid fears of another coup.

The PAD campaign has so far managed to muster a few thousand supporters but numbers could be higher after trade union leaders at the main state power provider said they would join the rally.

Source: Al Jazeera and agencies

Unquote

Edited June 21, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[nomoretalksin]

A big to the Maj. Gen. Surapol Tuanthong and his troups! even if Samak apparently was not happy about them!

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gsN2uTP...CQyKvgD91E85CO0

Quote

Thai PM refuses to resign amid protests

By SUTIN WANNABOVORN – 2 hours ago

BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) — Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej on Saturday refused to bow to the demands of anti-government protesters who vowed to besiege his office until he resigned.

More than 20,000 demonstrators broke through a police cordon to occupy the area around Thailand's seat of government Friday and remained there through the night. But deputy government spokesman Natawut Saikau told The Associated Press that Samak would not resign.

"The demand is unreasonable," he said.

The protesters, led by the People's Alliance for Democracy movement, claim Samak's government is a proxy for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a 2006 coup.

"Our stance is clear, we will continue to protest and camp out here until this puppet government of Thaksin's is out of office," said alliance spokesman Suriyasai Katasila.

Samak would explain the ongoing political tensions in Thailand to the public later Sunday, Natawut said.

The prime minister met with the armed forces chief Friday but did not disclose what was discussed, the spokesman said. "He only said that the police are continuing to be in charge of handling the protest, and that it is not yet time for the soldiers to come out."

Rumors have swept Bangkok since the protests began three weeks ago that the country's powerful military would stage another coup, something which the top brass has repeatedly denied.

Claiming victory, the demonstrators set up a stage and other facilities on surrounding streets after managing to push through police lines Friday afternoon to surge forward to a fence on two sides of the Government House compound. After some initial scuffling, police gave little resistance.

"No one got hurt," police spokesman Maj. Gen. Surapol Tuanthong told Thai television station TPBS. "There was no image of the police hurting Thai people and that's the most important thing and should satisfy our superiors on every level. The politicians will have to find their own political solution."

He was responding to a question about why police let the demonstrators occupy the streets outside Government House despite earlier vowing to block them.

Alliance leaders say they don't want to occupy the compound itself but plan to peacefully maintain a siege around it.

During the afternoon, police estimated about 22,000 people were taking part in the protest, but the number continued to grow in the evening. Alliance leaders gave far higher figures that appeared to be greatly inflated.

The alliance led mass demonstrations before the 2006 coup demanding Thaksin step down for alleged corruption and abuse of power. They now accuse Samak's government of interfering with corruption charges against the former prime minister and trying to change the constitution for its own self-interest.

Samak's People's Power Party won general elections last December. His Cabinet is packed with Thaksin's allies and critics say rehabilitating the former leader is among the government's top priorities.

Unquote

Edited June 21, 2008 by nomoretalksin

[Meerkat]

65M elected the government? That includes children, teenagers and old folks too old to get to the voting stations

Maybe only those with degrees should be allowed to vote, assuming those with degrees have decent jobs and would not vote for anyone if given 500 baht? Then you would get a proper representation of who people want to be in power. Counteracting vote buying is difficult, and until this is addressed the crazy situation of who can buy the most votes will determine who gets into power (read this as the richest can do what they want and get more rich). Assuming the democrats would not lower themselves to vote buying means they would never get in office. Wonder how much PPP had to pay to get in power?

Er...no, then you'd just get a proper representation of whom the people with a degree (and by your extension those with decent jobs) want in power. Not representative of the present electorate at all (I've had difficulty finding a recent proportion of those that go to university, but it seems to be somewhere around 30% and is massively skewed in favour of those from more wealthy families.)

I agree with you that eliminating vote-buying here is difficult, when graft as a whole plays such an important part of daily life. Stiffer penalties - jail time - I suppose for both the giver and the taker, along with greater monitoring during the entire electoral process might help. But again, vote-buying has to be taken as just one part of the greater task of eliminating graft as a whole. Add to that the fact that we don't even know how effective vote-buying is; some on here say that it's the only reason the PPP got in, some will say it had nothing to do with it. I tend to think the answer is somewhere in the middle, but at least the (ironically) healthy number of red and yellow cards shows that something has been done about it.

Remember too (something that often gets overlooked by the fans of the junta - I wonder why) that the CNS had drawn up a decidedly undemocratic suite of measures to try and ensure that the Democrats got in (with or without their knowledge we'll probably never know), but they were found out in time (although let off the hook - how's that for fair?). Bribery isn't the only way of trying to fix an election.

Most Thais need to realise that Taksin is history and supporting him now (via PPP) only serves to get Taksin off the hook and is not for the general good of the country. People need to move on and vote/support who they think would do good for the country, but then there is the vote buying issue...

The problem with this is that what if a plurality of the people actually do want the PPP back? Are you to deny them their voting right just because they want "the wrong party"? People vote for whom they think will look after them better - not just here, but around the world. That's just the way democracy works - it's a crappy system, just less crappy than the rest.

[Tony Clifton]

My wife said yesterday that the BBC did report the rally but they reported "a few thousand present" only.

Some feedback from people I know who went to the demonstration.

They think it was the biggest PAD demo yet.

The atmosphere was relaxed mostly.

Toilets are a bit of a problem.

Concerning the authorities: ordinary soldiers at their base were asking demonstrators for PAD paraphenalia and were quite supportive. Probably no surprise. Interestingly I hear that the police at least at one point actually told the demonstrators that they could pass through their lines with specualtion that the police never intended to even try to stop anyone, which would maybe explain Samak's reported anger at them. Some of the police who talked to demonstrators were also saying Samak wouldnt be around for long.

Toilets were a problem at Makawan bridge as police closed off the neaby temple grounds where portable toilets had been installed, they had also shut off the water supply to piss off the protesters. BMA is apparently allocating all toilets it can for the rally.

It was reported on the PAD stage earlier that [ Thaskin } has left Thailand earlier today along with his entire family. They smell something burning I guess...

IMO, smart move.

Maybe you/we should be following suit?

Why me and not you?

[Meerkat]

Further on have your just recent ex lawyer with the current Foreign Minister jacket on currently, declaring give-away temple to Cambodia, and announce with your business partner in Cambodia just one day later, the financial investment in Cambodia (deal!), with/near a new connection road (paid by Thai tax-payers) which just oppened a view weeks ago (for quick access to his new investment) by the very same people. Really no hidding anymore, hey? How long do the Thai people want to swallow this?

What giveaway? The temple was "given away" by the ICJ in 1962.

[toptuan]

Maybe you/we should be following suit?

Why me and not you?

/ = and, or

[hammered]

It would be interesting to know exactly who accepted the censure motion yesterday thereby removing Samak's ability to disolve parliament. While the media concentrate on the drama at government house some questions remain. It had to be someone from the government. The timing was also intersting. Can we surmise someone on the government side was worried a house disolution may be called by Samak and didnt want that to happen? The whole government and parlaiment were pretty much enjoying a day off yesterday and yet the only piece of business that got done was the PPP placing the censure motion they didnt want to face on the agenda!

There must be a few walls it would be interesting to be a fly on right now.

[toptuan]

...critics say rehabilitating the former leader is among the government's top priorities.

Interesting choice of word...usually reserved for therapy after an accident, or reformation of a convict after a criminal act.

"accident:" -- are the critics referring to losing the Kingdom while on a trip to New York?

"convict:" -- do the "critics" really believe that the current government shares their views that we're dealing

with a criminal here?

Either way, the word has me puzzled....

[Moonrakers]

...critics say rehabilitating the former leader is among the government's top priorities.

Interesting choice of word...usually reserved for therapy after an accident, or reformation of a convict after a criminal act.

"accident:" -- are the critics referring to losing the Kingdom while on a trip to New York?

"convict:" -- do the "critics" really believe that the current government shares their views that we're dealing

with a criminal here?

Either way, the word has me puzzled....

Maybe they are referring to all the crack that he must have been smoking.

[ando]

It would be interesting to know exactly who accepted the censure motion yesterday thereby removing Samak's ability to disolve parliament. While the media concentrate on the drama at government house some questions remain. It had to be someone from the government. The timing was also intersting. Can we surmise someone on the government side was worried a house disolution may be called by Samak and didnt want that to happen? The whole government and parlaiment were pretty much enjoying a day off yesterday and yet the only piece of business that got done was the PPP placing the censure motion they didnt want to face on the agenda!

There must be a few walls it would be interesting to be a fly on right now.

Samak cant dissolve parliament and call a democratic election while the censure is in place. Something in the 2007 constitution I believe.

That leaves the only options as Samak to resign or tough it out which would likely lead to violence and a possible coup sometime.

Samak has said he wont resign so it puts the ball in Abhisits court as to whether he wants violence and a coup or another election.

I believe Abahisit has said he would be prepared to negotiate withdrawing the censure motion.

[Crushdepth]

Political sources said Thaksin Shinawatra and the core leaders of the People Power Party have agreed that Samak should step down to pave the way for Education Minister Somchai Wongswat, a brother-in-law of Thaksin, to succeed him.

Yeah that would really help cool things off :-) If PPP is so stupid as to actually go down this path, you'd have to conclude that they are *trying* to provoke a fight. Maybe they are looking for an excuse for an armed crackdown but don't want to be seen throwing the first stone?

[sriracha john]

It would be interesting to know exactly who accepted the censure motion yesterday thereby removing Samak's ability to disolve parliament. While the media concentrate on the drama at government house some questions remain. It had to be someone from the government. The timing was also intersting. Can we surmise someone on the government side was worried a house disolution may be called by Samak and didnt want that to happen? The whole government and parlaiment were pretty much enjoying a day off yesterday and yet the only piece of business that got done was the PPP placing the censure motion they didnt want to face on the agenda!

There must be a few walls it would be interesting to be a fly on right now.

The motion was submitted by Democrat MP Sathit Wongnongtoey with Deputy House Speaker Somsak Kiartsuaranan.

[sriracha john]

Samak cant dissolve parliament and call a democratic election while the censure is in place. Something in the 2007 constitution I believe.

* 1. * That leaves the only options as Samak to resign or * 2. * tough it out which would likely lead to violence and a possible coup sometime.

Samak has said he wont resign so it puts the ball in Abhisits court as to whether he wants violence and a coup or another election.

3. Emergency Decree

Edited June 21, 2008 by sriracha john

[plachon]

Plachon, the 'Assembly of the Poor ' ... what or whom are you regarding with this statement please??? If it is the protesters currently outside Government House please take a back seat and do some research into what you are talking about... if not, do explain...

I was merely comparing the current relatively short protest with the long and arduous protests of AOP, who had to brave all sorts of tests of endurance to make their point, eventually realising that being fobbed off with false promises by the state authorities was par for the course. The protesters now are more savvy one would like to think and will stay until there is concrete change. This is People Power in action. However, there will be many obstacles placed in their way by the Lord of Darkness and his fawning minions in power at present.

Thanks to Stumonster for the background links on AOP.

The lack of international media coverage is a disappointment and deserves an examination of motives.

[sriracha john]

Somsak's background:

The Newin faction is seen as the largest clique of the PPP, wielding the support of more than 100 MPs from the Northeast. Upon a closer look at the faction, Newin's loyal allies should be about 40 or less, comprising mostly MPs from the lower Northeast. The rest of the faction members form a loose and occasional alliance with Newin and they drift in accordance with the power flow of the PPP mainstream. These include about 20 MPs from the Northeast Development Group under House Deputy Speaker Somsak Kiartsuranan.

- The Nation