My Maid...the Thief

[IonaBong]

I see many farang they have this problem. Mostly they have a woman working in their house and steal money from them. In Thai we call this "panlaya." Sorry only joking with you hehe.

[wjmark]

What a crock - saving face for the people who you trusted in your home. Nuts, crazy and stupid.

They deserve to lose face - they steal. And they steal in a dispicable way - from people who trust them in their home.

As one poster mentioned, a Thai employer would crucify them.

OF COURSE COMES THE QUESTION OF SAFETY AND TACTICS. If you cause them to lose face, they may come back and kill you! They should lose face, but one should consider any possible ramifications (probably none, imho).

My maid I trust completely. She has proven herself time and time again. She found a 1000bt note under my desk, and she put it on my important papers for me. She has keys to my apartment, and takes care of it while I am away. Lovely, honest, shy, hard working, and also seems proud that I trust her. A great relationship. I just gave her a raise.

If you think someone is stealing from you, why shouldn't you try to find out. Sensitivity to Thai thieves, liars, cheats - just because they are Thai? Get in the game - that is nuts. That 'save face stuff' both protects and justifies all the shit that Thais would never accept.

That is not cultural sensitivity, that is just pandering.

[john b good]

I strongly support Oneman, Fiscalist,UG and Wadsy's views

1. Leaving money lying around is an unjust temptation in anybodies language.

I leave money laying around inside my house, not in big amounts, but pocket change. I also leave expensive sunglasses, iPod, watch, vehicle keys, food, and other such items laying in thier place.

If my maid thinks these are for her/his taking...

They have serious problems, one is with me because then I will consider them a criminal.

I'm sorry, but inside my house...I cannot agree with this statement.

That is common theft, plain and simple....not temptation.

Agree 100%

A thief is a thief full stop.

Leaving money (or i-pods, watches, camera, whatever) is all the same.

And the OP had the honesty to say that he was "checking them out" and it was his right to do so.

[Ulysses G.]

Ulysses, your first post is terribly disappointing, and blatantly obvious. Dlock sensed he was having things stolen from him, so he did something about it. He needs your approval for how he should go about this?

If he did not want me to comment on his situation, he probably should not have posted it on the Internet. That is pretty much what it is for!

[bergen]

So a many pays 14,000 + free rent and transportation and is expected to accept theft? Please I know plenty of Thai's working harder jobs, more hours for less money AND they have to pay rent on top of it all.

Imho you can pull the face BS when you work for a Thai employer, but when you work for a Farang I think it's acceptable to adhere to Farang guidelines.

My wife had accidentally sent my wallet with 3 credit cards and 6000+ baht to the laundry. I got back everything when we returned and they rushed out to meet us and say we forgot it. I didn't even know these people, I would not have been able to prove any theft and yet they were not "tempted" to take a little extra something. If they can be honest, why can't we expect the same from people who we ACCEPT INTO OUR HOMES.

What happens when a local gang or other thieves offer your maids 20,000 baht for a house key? If they are tempted for 100 I wouldn't feel safe, especially with theft on the rise.

Agree with BA and the op..............

When trusted people start stealing small...........it will only escalate if not stopped!

[Bluelotus]

There seems to be a bit of a paradox ,the maid steals from the Employer , the Employer steals from the Thai Government ,and yet the employer feels wronged and believes the government should not feel the same . A bit slippery on the ol' morals standards. hmmmm....

[Ajarn]

Yes Ajarn and read carefully: All Thai Companies. A private person is not a company

That was written by the website, not by the government.

[bratpack]

Not say anything. Just dismiss. After being sure you have your keys etc. And be a gentleman, pay for 2 or three weeks extra.

Why would I do that?

Pay them the legal 3 months salary for stealing my things? Interesting logic.

...as soon as you discover they steal from you, don't say anything, dismiss and pay. Give some excuse like, "we can do it ourselves from here".

For them no loss of face ?!

Valuable logic from "Fiscalist".

Especially his comment about saving face.

In Thailand, everything is about face, in some way or other.

Worthwhile to consider it carefully.

Why would you offer severence pay?

To protect yourself from ill-will among the locals, and to burnish your reputation as a man with good heart ("jai-dee").

Here in Thailand, far better to have many friends than one enemy.

To suddenly fire your staff, without pay, puts severe strain on them.

All their social network will come to their aid with food and loans of money, until they find new jobs.

Everyone will know the reason for the problem -- and that reason is you.

Plus, the next staff you hire will certainly know everything about you from the gossip.

Any comments from us Westerners about "theft is theft" ignore the strong, cultural trait, of sharing among Thais.

In addition, in Thai society, the rich person "takes care" of the poor within his extended family.

If you employ someone, they come within your extended family.

We have little concept of that in the West, but the Thais put high value on it.

When they take something -- as "DLock" described -- it is not a sin, just their way of letting you be generous to them, without bothering you by asking for every little thing.

Among my staff, I expect these sorts of things to happen, and I try to understand them, as they try to understand me.

They look to see what I value highly, and never touch those items.

For example, they would never, ever, take my computer, my mobile phone, or any CDs.

But they would, and have, remove something small from the kitchen, like taking home plastic food trays.

And, of course, they help themselves to any food within reach, and take plenty home for their own family and neighbors.

They will also take minor items of low value, if I have many, like socks.

Most times they return change from small purchases, but sometimes they don't.

It's all part of the package of living here.

Sorry but i cannot accept your comments.Are you making an excuse for your staffs stealing from you.Thieving has got nothing to do with value and it seems your staffs are bloody cleptomaniacs.

CULTURAL TRAIT - SHARING.Are you having a laugh or what.

[papajohn]

" It's just their way of letting you be generous to them" are you a Tuk-Tuk driver ?

[gpdjohn]

" It's just their way of letting you be generous to them" are you a Tuk-Tuk driver ?

Yeah, I liked that quote as well.

"Hey, let me come over and take your car and about 80,000 Bt. just so you can show you how generous you are to me" Makes sense to me.

[anthonyu]

Pay peanuts, get monkeys!

[Oneman]

There are a thousand ways to tell someone the truth. To find out That way Not to insult the other party is a gift.

Exactly!

Especially here in Thailand where personal relationships are an essential value.

Following the laws of government and religion is a Western cultural value, but not much of that here.

Easy to see that behavior in Thai culture is not based on laws.

Thais do what they think they can get away with.

The question is, get away with from whom?

And that's a missing piece to the puzzle on this topc.

Thai social world is split into two parts: one part is family, extended family, known friends, and neighbors.

The other side of the split is everyone else.

Within the family-kin group, people are usually careful, honorable, and considerate of others.

Outside the family group, anything goes, if they can get away with it.

(Exceptions, of course.)

In the OPs situation with the maid, I would have tried to associate myself with her family-kin group.

Apparently the OP did a lot of that, too.

But even that was not enough to avoid the "get away with" stealing.

Could he have done more?

From reading his posts, I don't think so.

I think there is another factor which has been overlooked in this discussion so far.

That is a factor which most Westerners never consider in such situations.

We Westerners look to laws, including laws of our religious heritage as, "Thou shalt not steal".

But Thais regulate their behavior by looking to retribution from others in their family-kin group.

With the OP, the maid was just an employee -- with no family-kin connection.

At least, none was mentioned.

That's why, when hiring staff here, or looking for anybody to do anything for me, I always try to find a "counter-party" in the staff's family-kin group.

If something goes wrong, who is the counter-party who will make things right?

Is it the father, the older brother, the uncle who is a monk, or my neighbor, the police colonel, who is the older brother of the wife of the staff's cousin.

Someone like that.

With a counter-party in the background -- known to both me and the staff -- there is far less chance of any problems in the first place.

The Thai staff may want to steal from you, but, far more, she won't risk offending someone in her family-kin group.

Now the OP is trying to replace his maid.

If I were wanting to do that, I would not place an ad, nor ask for referals from Westerners.

Instead, I would make inquiries of senior members of the Thai family groups I already know.

(Inquiries in a very round-about, polite, face-saving manner.)

I would let them select who would apply for the job.

Then I would pick one from among those who came forward.

The essential, counter-party network would already be in place.

Still some chance of problems -- always a chance, anywhere -- but far less if we understand Thai culture, and work within it.

Far easier that, than trying to impose Western ways, to "teach them a lesson".

And far safer, than to risk retribution from an angry Thai and his family group.

---

(I am always striving to understand the Thai culture that surrounds us here.

If others have topics to discuss -- but off-topic of this particular thread -- I am always happy to get PM or email.)

Edited June 24, 2008 by Oneman

[StevieH]

have you considered doing your own laundry and cleaning?

[Ajarn]

So indeed only when you run a business.

I don't where you got that from, but okay

[Oneman]

(duplicate deleted)

Edited June 24, 2008 by Oneman

[DLock]

So, I guess that's a NO to anyone knowing any good maids then?

Fortunately for me, my wife called some of her family members and they came up the same day my staff left. They enjoy staying in Chiang Mai and actually work pretty hard. It's a short term solution, but I am very thankful to them. My wife is happy to have them around for a while, so it's ok for a while.

I have enjoyed reading all the opinions on how people would handle a similar situation. I stand behind the way I handled it and would do it the same way again.

I am still a little puzzled by some of the attitudes and the Thai "face" issue being so important that it clouds our judgement and acceptance of these "small" thefts as acceptable or tolerable.

Is it weakness or fear? Are people so concerned about fitting in or retribution? Is face THAT important to some people but not others? Is it determined by how long we have been here or the opinions of our partners?

In my experience, if you give a Thai an inch, he will try to take 10 miles. Our generosity and kindness can be perceived as weakness or stupidity, just as our reluctance to act on small issues like this will turn into bigger issues down the road. Of course this is a broad stroke and there are some truly amazing Thai people - and I am lucky I have many other staff that I feel I can trust - and I do trust people until given a reason not too.

When I let people into my home to work, I have to trust them 100%. There is too much in my home that there is no way I can remove all temptation. That's just the way it is and will always be.

[southerndog]

I will give my valued 2 cents.

I do agree with you video taping the fact that she stole from you. But you should have just done that for you. You really didn't have to go through the whole act of showing her the tape and humiliating her. What she did was wrong , but you can certainly agree there's different levels of wrong. Was she stealing your wife's jewelry? No. She was helping herself to something she probably figured wouldn't be missed. What she did was definitely wrong, and I'm not defending it, but I think part of showing her the tape was sort of a puritanical vengeance type of thing. Or showing her that you outsmarted her or whatever. Showing her the video just seems unnecessary, and not very classy.

If it were me, I just would have made up an excuse why I didn't want her to work for me anymore, and be done with it. They'll figure out that you know you were being stolen from.

When I was ten years old, I was over my friends house. In his basement, they had a big pile of junk that me and my friends were playing around in. In the middle of this junk was a PILE of half dollar coins. It was like a buried treasure. LOL. I stole about $15 worth of coins. Unknowingly, one of my other friends did too. I guess the temptation was just too great, and I definitely had the feeling of "they'll never miss 'em." Well, my father ended up catching me, and I got the biggest punishment of my life. I never stole again, and learned my lesson.

My point is, I understand both sides, and I don't think you should try to see things as so black and white.

[p1p]

This has run its course and the OP has solved his problem.

Time to close the thread