Disheartening A Nation -

[toptuan]

With the current political instability, one thing that's hard to assess is the effect on the psyche of a people. I often get very depressing comments from close Thai friends about the future of their country, as they view current events in politics. Often those who stir up trouble fail to consider the longer-term and deeper effects upon the soul of their fellow countrymen/women.

For example, here's a couple of excerpts of emails from a talented, promising recent graduate from one of our universities...

[explanatory comments in brackets by myself]

Dear _______,

This is a very warm greeting from U_____, first of all, I'd like to say hello! and do hope you're doing greatly okay, aren't you? Is everything fine with you?

I am very interested in migrating to ________ [country of addressee's origin]. I am thinking a lot of living and studying there. As you see the current situation here that there is a political conflict in Thailand again after the latest coup by a group of juntas and it seems to happen again coz every side wants to take power. I love my respective country meanwhile I feel like the history is going to repeat. It's very shameful for an image of the country which is governed by democracy. Would it be possible for you to give me some advice in case you have any ideas.

Thanks so much in advance for your kindly great help. Please enjoy your day!

N_______

Dear _______

You're such a great advisor..whenever I have questions, you'll always clear up my doubts...May I call you Mr. Brain Bank? hehehehehe....yup, I think I've made a serious and deep decision. I would say nothing is right or wrong but if you notice that if there is an internal conflict in any countries, the violence will follow. It not only effect on those people who are stirring conflict, but also effect on nationwide that are not involved..like it's happening now...political worried, economic crisis, living price inflations...so bad

Thanks for your helpful links [about immigrating]..I'll try to spend my time learning it...coz now I have to work

N______

Any comments by close Thai friends about how the current events effect their optimism concerning Thailand?

[anthonyu]

Where some see turmoil, others see opportunity.

Some people want to move out but there's others who want to move in.

Its all about perspective.

[sgtpeppers]

All the people in my soi who I have talked to support Samak with a strange vigor. I think the PPP has bought the whole soi.

Others around say they feel very very bored with the whole thing.

They are the two common responses I encounter.

[toptuan]

...there's others who want to move in.

Its all about perspective.

Would the current free-fall in tourism statistics be any indication of how many want come here?

[anthonyu]

...there's others who want to move in.

Its all about perspective.

Would the current free-fall in tourism statistics be any indication of how many want come here?

Hey Toptuan, that's one way of looking at it.

Tourism's pretty fickle though so should look at this from and import/export point of view. How many do we have coming in and how many do we have going out? If someone has stats, that would be great.

Then again putting things way back into perspective, why are you and I here?

[Florin]

All the people in my soi who I have talked to support Samak with a strange vigor. I think the PPP has bought the whole soi.

I wonder why no one imagines that a lot of regular people actually want the PPP in power, do you really think you can buy a zealot for life with a couple of hundred baht and a bottle of whiskey? All that buys is one vote on election day...

I really loathe the PAD for what they're doing, no matter who comes out on top in the end, political instability and a downward spiraling economy is guaranteed as long as they continue with their protests.

The fact that they claim some kind of moral high ground (and that people actually BELIEVE that) is shocking...they're similar to so many other well-funded protest movements around the world, just a bunch of big-mouthed losers with absolutely no solutions. All they do is follow the bidding of their financial backers...

The last time people voted Democrat they ended up with the wonderful governor Apirak, whose policies so far have included, let's see:

-bicycle lanes on busy Bangkok roads...the lane being a strip of white paint on the road

-GPS-equipped taxis, woohoo...they don't come with actual mapping software that the driver can view, they are instead connected to stations around town where people are expected to wait for a specially equipped taxi like for the bus, while dozens of available ones zoom by

-the completion of the BTS extension across the river...first it was scheduled for end of 2007, then end of 2008, now spring 2009...I see that they have taken the major step of replacing the maps in stations and trains with neatly taped-over updated ones...so we're all set for maps, all we need are the actual functional stations and trains! But of course, according to the poor guy, no one let him get this done...not the TRT, not the military government, not the PPP, surely only the Democrats can achieve this!

It's ridiculous that this madness is allowed to continue and destroy the spirit, image and financial health of this country...the Philippines and Indonesia are great examples of people power gone too dam_n far, to the point where absolutely nothing gets done anymore!

[h90]

All the people in my soi who I have talked to support Samak with a strange vigor. I think the PPP has bought the whole soi.

Others around say they feel very very bored with the whole thing.

They are the two common responses I encounter.

Here in my soi the neighbours we have contact asked my wife how to go to the PAD and how safe it is as they are already older (at least retired but no idea how old), and some customer expressed their anger about the government.

[plachon]

All the people in my soi who I have talked to support Samak with a strange vigor. I think the PPP has bought the whole soi.

I wonder why no one imagines that a lot of regular people actually want the PPP in power, do you really think you can buy a zealot for life with a couple of hundred baht and a bottle of whiskey? All that buys is one vote on election day...

I really loathe the PAD for what they're doing, no matter who comes out on top in the end, political instability and a downward spiraling economy is guaranteed as long as they continue with their protests.

The fact that they claim some kind of moral high ground (and that people actually BELIEVE that) is shocking...they're similar to so many other well-funded protest movements around the world, just a bunch of big-mouthed losers with absolutely no solutions. All they do is follow the bidding of their financial backers...

The last time people voted Democrat they ended up with the wonderful governor Apirak, whose policies so far have included, let's see:

-bicycle lanes on busy Bangkok roads...the lane being a strip of white paint on the road

-GPS-equipped taxis, woohoo...they don't come with actual mapping software that the driver can view, they are instead connected to stations around town where people are expected to wait for a specially equipped taxi like for the bus, while dozens of available ones zoom by

-the completion of the BTS extension across the river...first it was scheduled for end of 2007, then end of 2008, now spring 2009...I see that they have taken the major step of replacing the maps in stations and trains with neatly taped-over updated ones...so we're all set for maps, all we need are the actual functional stations and trains! But of course, according to the poor guy, no one let him get this done...not the TRT, not the military government, not the PPP, surely only the Democrats can achieve this!

It's ridiculous that this madness is allowed to continue and destroy the spirit, image and financial health of this country...the Philippines and Indonesia are great examples of people power gone too dam_n far, to the point where absolutely nothing gets done anymore!

But have you done a survey of what the Filippinos and Indonesians prefer - life under a kleptocracy dictatorship like that of Marcos and Suharto or life under a semi-participatory democracy, where everyone can complain about the government! Thailand under Toxin was becoming like the former, but under a rather poor guise of the latter. Toxin wanted to be in power for a generation and was prepared to do almost anything to stay there. He was using Marcos and Suharto -like tactics and extreme nepotism to make sure his economic and political supremacy could and would not be challenged. The coup was well-timed and peaceful, serving a useful purpose in the context of Thai politics. Not for every country, but in Thailand it seems to work. Thailand doesn't fit into any easy stereotypes, which is why it always has been and always will be an AMAZING country (the most accurate TAT promo campaign ever!).

[Heng]

My family has both Democrat and PPP supporters (vote wise anyway, we don't attend any rallies or donate or anything like that) without any significant business interests profiting either way.

You don't have to be bought or paid to be a supporter.

[lannarebirth]

I wondetr if your email correspondants understand that democracy is a participatory form of government and not one to be only observed and lamented?

[samran]

All the people in my soi who I have talked to support Samak with a strange vigor. I think the PPP has bought the whole soi.

I wonder why no one imagines that a lot of regular people actually want the PPP in power, do you really think you can buy a zealot for life with a couple of hundred baht and a bottle of whiskey? All that buys is one vote on election day...

I really loathe the PAD for what they're doing, no matter who comes out on top in the end, political instability and a downward spiraling economy is guaranteed as long as they continue with their protests.

The fact that they claim some kind of moral high ground (and that people actually BELIEVE that) is shocking...they're similar to so many other well-funded protest movements around the world, just a bunch of big-mouthed losers with absolutely no solutions. All they do is follow the bidding of their financial backers...

The last time people voted Democrat they ended up with the wonderful governor Apirak, whose policies so far have included, let's see:

-bicycle lanes on busy Bangkok roads...the lane being a strip of white paint on the road

-GPS-equipped taxis, woohoo...they don't come with actual mapping software that the driver can view, they are instead connected to stations around town where people are expected to wait for a specially equipped taxi like for the bus, while dozens of available ones zoom by

-the completion of the BTS extension across the river...first it was scheduled for end of 2007, then end of 2008, now spring 2009...I see that they have taken the major step of replacing the maps in stations and trains with neatly taped-over updated ones...so we're all set for maps, all we need are the actual functional stations and trains! But of course, according to the poor guy, no one let him get this done...not the TRT, not the military government, not the PPP, surely only the Democrats can achieve this!

It's ridiculous that this madness is allowed to continue and destroy the spirit, image and financial health of this country...the Philippines and Indonesia are great examples of people power gone too dam_n far, to the point where absolutely nothing gets done anymore!

agree that Apirak is a pretty useless governor, but the problem is that BKK governors still have to beg and scrape to the ministry of interior and has very few independent powers. I think they can sweep up the rubbish themselves, and put up pretty posters about how green and great a place bangkok is.

As for the BTS extension, you should have another look at the history. Websites like 2bangkok have covered the issue well, and the extension is a turf war between PPP/TRT and the Dems. No side is clean on the issue, but none of them did too much to work through the problem.

[toptuan]

I wondetr if your email correspondants understand that democracy is a participatory form of government and not one to be only observed and lamented?

Yes, he voted in at least two elections: The results of the first election overturned by a coup, and the second in danger of being neutralized by Bangkok's elitists.

[plachon]

I wondetr if your email correspondants understand that democracy is a participatory form of government and not one to be only observed and lamented?

Yes, he voted in at least two elections: The results of the first election overturned by a coup, and the second in danger of being neutralized by Bangkok's elitists.

Far from being depressed by his moanings Mr Brain Bank you should be encouraged by the fact that he is concerned, although in a rather cowardly way, apparently wanting to use his foreign contact to find a way to flee the country. I would be far more depressed by the thousands of Thai youth educated to university level who seem to be totally apolitical and have absolutely zero interest in how the country is run or who runs it. Those brain-dead zombies at so-called "top" universities depress me frankly, although the female of the species can provide other forms of entertainment/stimulation, as proven by the "Miniskirts banned" thread.

By the way, there's more to democracy than voting, a fact frequently lost on many posters enamoured of the TRT/PPP govt.

[PeaceBlondie]

Only one Thai has ever asked my opinion of national politics, and she was the exception (a middle-aged social studies teacher from a small town in a remote province). My partner was originally a Thaksin supporter (local boys), but he got disillusioned and did not even vote in the referendum, which was mandatory. So, I just don't know how most Thais feel about their politics. As for families being politically diverse, as Heng mentions, Violeta Chamorro was president of Nicaragua when some of her own children were still in the opposition Sandinista party that she had left years before.

[Plus]

The fact that they claim some kind of moral high ground (and that people actually BELIEVE that) is shocking...they're similar to so many other well-funded protest movements around the world, just a bunch of big-mouthed losers with absolutely no solutions. All they do is follow the bidding of their financial backers...

One thing PAD is not is a "mob for hire". People join because of their convictions, and their core demand is very simple - justice for Thaksin, that's all.

It has actually nothing to do with elections or politics, unless politics try to manipulate justice system, as we are witnessing now.

[Shotime]

The saddest part of the political situation here was the look on the King's face the other day on TV. Long live the King.

[toptuan]

chicken = political chaos in Thailand

egg = "...thousands of Thai youth educated to university level who seem to be totally apolitical and have absolutely zero interest in how the country is run or who runs it. "

IMHO, I believe the chicken laid the egg. That's what the students tell me.

On the other hand, most of them are quite up with the news about, and highly interested in, the current American political campaign.

Why?

[Heng]

The US campaign feels new and different (whether it is or not is another matter).

Here it's always the same old show: "election"--trough/buffet-tanks--"election" (don't rinse, but repeat).

[Florin]

It has actually nothing to do with elections or politics, unless politics try to manipulate justice system, as we are witnessing now.

Nothing to do with elections? Have they not disputed the outcome of at least 3?

samran, I agree that the BTS thing has been a turf war, but usually if a politician is determined enough, they can just push their issues through by sheer willpower and power of conviction, both of which Apirak and his people don't have.

And therein lies the problem, Apirak is a perfect example of the way the Democrat party works, all pretty on TV and paper but with little know-how to push issues through...the way I see it, politics (at least here) are all about appeasing the largest amount of people, not being the most intelligent or having the best rhetoric. That's when things actually begin to get done. All over the world hard-working intellectuals have failed horribly in their political postings because of not having this sense.

plachon, I think surveys and referendums work better in countries with a stronger democratic tradition, where not even the rulers are above the system...in countries like Indonesia, if you let the people go into mob mode every other day, no one wins, it will just create a constant transition mode which will halt economic progress and still not make people happy. Suharto or no Suharto, I didn't see a lot of relaxed, happy people in Jakarta a couple of weeks ago...instead, I saw hordes of angry motorcyclists going for a protest rally, disrupting everyone's business that day...and this kind of disruption is the norm, not the exception! People criticize rulers like Malaysia's Mahathir for stifling the opposition, but you need just look at Pakistan to see what happens when everyone can do whatever they want in a potentially volatile social environment. I think that he did the best possible job under the circumstances...which is all we can ask from any ruler. In the current case, I think the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government should be let to carry on with their work...I think Thaksin's judicial fate is a non-issue for the continued development of the country - he's not Hitler, in this case one man in prison will not make everyone else live better. There are systems in place for checking on governments - motions in Parliament, coalitions for a stronger opposition, etc. This works very well in many countries...mob rule doesn't work well anywhere. And whatever those people's convictions are, the outcome of their actions is still a mob on the street.

[Plus]

It has actually nothing to do with elections or politics, unless politics try to manipulate justice system, as we are witnessing now.

Nothing to do with elections? Have they not disputed the outcome of at least 3?

No, they haven't.

In 2006 they stopped their rally as soon as the election was called, and never came back.

They didn't protest against the current government at first, they gave it time to prove itself, the only reason they came out was government pushing Thaksin's agenda.

samran, I agree that the BTS thing has been a turf war, but usually if a politician is determined enough, they can just push their issues through by sheer willpower and power of conviction, both of which Apirak and his people don't have.

How can you say that - Apirak pushed for this extention only by sheer willpower and conviction, nothing else.

You can balme him all you want, but he's the only one who builds anything in this city. TRT/PPP only talk about hundreds of kilometers of subways and trains, for god knows how many years, and for all their talk not one station has been added, not a single kilometer of track build.

And therein lies the problem, Apirak is a perfect example of the way the Democrat party works, all pretty on TV and paper but with little know-how to push issues through

Yet he's most likely to win this year's Bangkok governor's election if he decides to run.

I mean how can you even compare Apirak to his predecessor - Samak, who washed his hands of his job and concentrated on cooking shows instead.

I think Thaksin's judicial fate is a non-issue for the continued development of the country

If he was a private person, yes, but since he's assumed to become the PM again, his judicial fate matters a lot.

At some point I expect even hard core PAD leaders will be forced to accept an outcome where Thaksin is basically let scott-free but stays away from politics for good. I mean a few little fines here and there, no jail term, and most assets returned after taxes have been collected.

[Florin]

In 2006 they stopped their rally as soon as the election was called, and never came back.

The way I see it, organizing mass rallies during the term of a legally elected PM who did not stay in power longer than stated in the constitution means disputing that person's right to rule and thus the election which put him there What Thaksin could've/would've done to keep himself in power for a generation is another issue entirely, but the fact remains that at the time he was the legally elected head of the Thai government.

They didn't protest against the current government at first, they gave it time to prove itself, the only reason they came out was government pushing Thaksin's agenda.

What? While there were no rallies initially, the Samak government was in power for ONE MONTH before the press conferences and saber-rattling restarted...if you became prime minister, even in a peaceful country, what in the world could you do in ONE MONTH?

How can you say that - Apirak pushed for this extention only by sheer willpower and conviction, nothing else.

You can balme him all you want, but he's the only one who builds anything in this city.

What did he build? BTS, MRT were not made during his tenure, the BRT system is taking forever to be constructed and all the while fantasy ideas abound...Bhichit Rattakul, the best governor in living memory, stopped being a Democrat after the party gave him the shaft...I'm not saying Samak was some great governor, but we're definitely no better off with this guy, just more posters seem to be flooding the city.

[Plus]

The way I see it, organizing mass rallies during the term of a legally elected PM who did not stay in power longer than stated in the constitution means disputing that person's right to rule and thus the election which put him there

They demanded his resignation not because he was elected but because he broke the laws - ownership of Shin Corp.

While there were no rallies initially, the Samak government was in power for ONE MONTH before the press conferences and saber-rattling restarted...if you became prime minister, even in a peaceful country, what in the world could you do in ONE MONTH?

Elections were in December, rallies started in May, and press conferences all had an "if" clause - if the government attempts to rewrite the constution, if the government attempts to meddle with jidiciary process, if the government attempts to stop AEC and so on. Nothing about elections results.

What did he build? BTS, MRT were not made during his tenure, the BRT system is taking forever

Huh? BTS extension to Thonburi and to Bangna, you mentioned it yourself.

[klikster]

The fact that they claim some kind of moral high ground (and that people actually BELIEVE that) is shocking...they're similar to so many other well-funded protest movements around the world, just a bunch of big-mouthed losers with absolutely no solutions. All they do is follow the bidding of their financial backers...

One thing PAD is not is a "mob for hire". People join because of their convictions, and their core demand is very simple - justice for Thaksin, that's all.

It has actually nothing to do with elections or politics, unless politics try to manipulate justice system, as we are witnessing now.

PAD is a defacto political party. They own/control media outlets, do deals and "own" politicians .. do your homework

[Florin]

They demanded his resignation not because he was elected but because he broke the laws - ownership of Shin Corp.

This again...Thaksin had no official role in Shin Corp. at the time, the discussion about how he could have told his son/daughter/wife to buy and sell stuff can go on forever, as can the one about his corrupt practices...my point is that the PAD wanted to remove a democratically elected official through undemocratic means and that further elections show that they don't represent the will of the country.

The discussion about whether the village folk have been bought/sold/bribed can also go on forever, but the truth remains that there are a lot of people in this country who will vote for him and his people. Are they right? Who knows...my country has a goddamn sailor for president, I never said that the majority of voters are intelligent, but they are the majority and according to the constitution, THEY say who rules the country, not a few thousand loud protesters.

Elections were in December, rallies started in May, and press conferences all had an "if" clause - if the government attempts to rewrite the constution, if the government attempts to meddle with jidiciary process, if the government attempts to stop AEC and so on. Nothing about elections results.

Elections happened on 23 December, so what with the New Year and stuff I don't see how you can count that month. Also, Samak was elected Prime Minister on January 28 and sworn in on Feb 6. The PAD <deleted> resumed at the beginning of March...and concepts like "if" clauses are legally meaningless because the PAD does not have the authority to declare/enforce such things...It's like you or me saying that the government has to go down if we don't get a free Coke every day! Who are they to make up laws?? The government is free to do whatever they want within the confines of the constitution and also to make amendments to the constitution...is this a perfect system? No...but I didn't see the army coming up with a better one and the voters seem pretty much fine with it, enough so to keep voting the same people. Whether out of ignorance is unimportant, they have exactly the same legal rights as all those people yelling on Ratchadamnoen Nok, so unless they can come up with a further 20 million people for their cause, they should shut their traps and stop destabilizing the country.

Huh? BTS extension to Thonburi and to Bangna, you mentioned it yourself.

Thonburi was not built during his time, all I've seen are delays and tender irregularities for the signaling system...so until it's running, it's NOT done. And he's had nearly FOUR years to connect two 90% completed stations.

As for Bangna, I'll give him the credit for starting the extension, but again, just take a look at the Rama 3 / Sathorn BRT progress (or lack thereof)...I'll believe it when it's done.

[Plus]

PAD is a defacto political party. They own/control media outlets, do deals and "own" politicians .. do your homework

Wrong on all three accounts.

1. Political parties are not supposed to own/control media outlets

2. PAD doesn't "do deals", never done one

3. PAD doesn't "own" politicians, never had one

Florin,

.Thaksin had no official role in Shin Corp. at the time, the discussion about how he could have told his son/daughter/wife to buy and sell stuff can go on forever, as can the one about his corrupt practices

He maintaned control of the company, which is/was/will always be illegal for a Prime Minister.

Discussion about his corrupt practices should be decided in the court of law, not during elections.

concepts like "if" clauses are legally meaningless because the PAD does not have the authority to declare/enforce such things

Your sentence is meaningless because PAD is not enforcing anything, just following on its promise to start mass protests. If the government finds it inconvenient, they knew how to avoid it in the first place but chose not to.

One of the first Samak's announcements was to postpone constitution rewrite until his last days in office and he was applauded for that. For a moment it looked like he'd really like to heal the rift and get on with governing the country. Then everything changed.

As for Apirak:

I'll believe it when it's done.

Double standards - why do you believe Democarts when it's done but you believe TRT/PPP when they only promise. Apirak has gone a lot further than the ruling party, while toughing it out against central government's opposition and with city's own budget.

Bangkok is undeniabley better now than ten years ago under Bhichit, btw.

[klikster]

PAD is a defacto political party. They own/control media outlets, do deals and "own" politicians .. do your homework

1. Political parties are not supposed to own/control media outlets

2. PAD doesn't "do deals", never done one

3. PAD doesn't "own" politicians, never had one

You naivety is amusing. "De facto is a Latin expression that means "of the fact" or "in practice" but not ordained by law."

"Political parties are not supposed to .."

Neither are politicians supposed to buy votes.

First part of your homework should be in researching and discovering the motives behind the Sondhi and Taksin falling out. Then find someone who knows about and understands, and will talk to you about, the inner workings of PAD as it exists today.

.Thaksin had no official role in Shin Corp. at the time, the discussion about how he could have told his son/daughter/wife to buy and sell stuff can go on forever, as can the one about his corrupt practices

He maintaned control of the company, which is/was/* will always be illegal for a Prime Minister.

**Discussion about his corrupt practices should be decided in the court of law, not during elections.

*I believe this part of your statement is a bit silly .. how can you possibly know?

**"Discussion .." only in court?

[egg6447]

it matters not one iota to very few people in any country anywhere in the world who runs the country. nothing changes. outstanding politicians are the exception rather than the rule. there must be hundreds of years between politicians that make a difference. making a difference to me is making changes to the established/accepted way of doing things. if such a politician serf ices his policies invariably die with said politician. democracy? no such thing i,m afraid. bit like communisme.