Worst Transcription Ever

[Groongthep]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate but when one reads the headlines in the Bangkok Post using Preah Vihear to refer to พระวิหาร does it strike anyone other than me as ridiculous. Being as they are the most widely read english language newspaper in Thailand I assume they are using the RTGS but I think it just goes to show how poor that system is. The average person reading this paper cannot read Thai and would have no idea how to even come close to correctly pronouncing the name of this temple when they spell it this way. It should be something like "Prah! Wihahn" but yes, I know it could be spelled in various different ways depending on where you learned english, but certainly Preah Vihear is not anywhere close no matter where you learned english. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but I sure wish some Thai academics would get together and reform the RTGS. I realize they could never come up with a system that would be satisfactory to everyone but there has got to be something better than this.

[DavidHouston]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate but when one reads the headlines in the Bangkok Post using Preah Vihear to refer to พระวิหาร does it strike anyone other than me as ridiculous. Being as they are the most widely read english language newspaper in Thailand I assume they are using the RTGS but I think it just goes to show how poor that system is. The average person reading this paper cannot read Thai and would have no idea how to even come close to correctly pronouncing the name of this temple when they spell it this way. It should be something like "Prah! Wihahn" but yes, I know it could be spelled in various different ways depending on where you learned english, but certainly Preah Vihear is not anywhere close no matter where you learned english. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but I sure wish some Thai academics would get together and reform the RTGS. I realize they could never come up with a system that would be satisfactory to everyone but there has got to be something better than this.

I believe that the transcription you refer to reflects the Cambodian pronunciation, not a rendition of the Thai name. If you go to The Nation newspaper website, the initial screen will allow you to download a lengthy pdf file containing pictures and the proposal for making this site a World Heritage Site. The document may be downloaded in English or in French. The official name of the site in the English document is Preah Vihear which reflects the official Cambodian nomenclature. For example, this is from the Press Release:

"Both sides agreed to fulfill commitments envisaged in the Decision of the 31st Session of the World Heritage

Committee to ensure Cambodia’s formal inscription of the Temple of Preah Vihear on the World Heritage List at the

32nd Session in July 2008."

Edited June 25, 2008 by DavidHouston

[Groongthep]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate but when one reads the headlines in the Bangkok Post using Preah Vihear to refer to พระวิหาร does it strike anyone other than me as ridiculous. Being as they are the most widely read english language newspaper in Thailand I assume they are using the RTGS but I think it just goes to show how poor that system is. The average person reading this paper cannot read Thai and would have no idea how to even come close to correctly pronouncing the name of this temple when they spell it this way. It should be something like "Prah! Wihahn" but yes, I know it could be spelled in various different ways depending on where you learned english, but certainly Preah Vihear is not anywhere close no matter where you learned english. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but I sure wish some Thai academics would get together and reform the RTGS. I realize they could never come up with a system that would be satisfactory to everyone but there has got to be something better than this.

I believe that the transcription you refer to reflects the Cambodian pronunciation, not a rendition of the Thai name. If you go to The Nation newspaper website, the initial screen will allow you to download a lengthy pdf file containing pictures and the proposal for making this site a World Heritage Site. The document may be downloaded in English or in French. The official name of the site in the English document is Preah Vihear which reflects the official Cambodian nomenclature. For example, this is from the Press Release:

"Both sides agreed to fulfill commitments envisaged in the Decision of the 31st Session of the World Heritage

Committee to ensure Cambodia’s formal inscription of the Temple of Preah Vihear on the World Heritage List at the

32nd Session in July 2008."

You make a good point David, I didn't stop to think that the transcription may be from the Cambodian rather than the Thai. Regardless, even though I do not speak any Khmer I would doubt if the spelling "Preah Vihear" (PRAY-AH VEE-HERE?) reflects anything close to how the locals would pronounce it in Cambodia either. I may be wrong however, I'm certainly no expert.

[eefoo]

I do agree that the spelling "Preah Vihear" is a very bad transliteration of the Thai name พระวิหาร , but the question remains, is the Thai script a correct transliteration of the sound of a Cambodian temple's name? The problem would appear to be that there is no agreement on the actual pronunciation of the temple's name, and as I have never heard it from any other source than a Thai reading the Thai name, I can't really say what it should be. Given that the Cambodians end the name with what appears to be an 'R' sound, I would guess that it doesn't really end with an 'N' sound. This will have evolved from the Thai way of pronouncing all syllables that end in an ร ® or an ล (L) as 'N.

[bannork]

The OP is wrong, it is an accurate rendition of the Khmer pronunciation of Phra Wihan . He should apologise for jumping to conclusions.

[meadish_sweetball]

RTGS would have ' Phra Wihar ' I think.

[DavidHouston]

I was listening to the "no-confidence" debate today in Parliament regarding the location which is the subject of this thread. Nopadol used the Thai term for "an agreement in principle". However I do not remember whether he said,

"ข้อตกลงหลักการ" or "ข้อตกลง​ในหลัก​การ​".

I get the creepy feeling that the second sounds more like English than Thai. I can find both on the Internet in various places but is one more official than the other?

Thanks.

Edited June 25, 2008 by DavidHouston

[Johpa]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate.....

The spelling of your Thia Visa moniker invites such debate.

[CSS]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate but when one reads the headlines in the Bangkok Post using Preah Vihear to refer to พระวิหาร does it strike anyone other than me as ridiculous. Being as they are the most widely read english language newspaper in Thailand I assume they are using the RTGS but I think it just goes to show how poor that system is. The average person reading this paper cannot read Thai and would have no idea how to even come close to correctly pronouncing the name of this temple when they spell it this way. It should be something like "Prah! Wihahn" but yes, I know it could be spelled in various different ways depending on where you learned english, but certainly Preah Vihear is not anywhere close no matter where you learned english. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but I sure wish some Thai academics would get together and reform the RTGS. I realize they could never come up with a system that would be satisfactory to everyone but there has got to be something better than this.

I used to have more of a problem with the Royal Thai Institute System. Then I was instructed that it is a transliteration system, not a transcription system. It endeavors to preserve spelling and not sound as preserving a words historic meaning and the ability to re-transliterate back to the original language has precedence for them. In which case I no longer have a problem with it.

[CSS]

I was listening to the "no-confidence" debate today in Parliament regarding the location which is the subject of this thread. Nopadol used the Thai term for "an agreement in principle". However I do not remember whether he said,

"ข้อตกลงหลักการ" or "ข้อตกลง​ในหลัก​การ​".

I get the creepy feeling that the second sounds more like English than Thai. I can find both on the Internet in various places but is one more official than the other?

Thanks.

If sheer quantity means anything then it's ข้อตกลงหลักการ as it gets 7x the number of google hits. Both seemed to show up in official government type websites however.

[Groongthep]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate.....

The spelling of your Thia Visa moniker invites such debate.

I expected someone might comment on this and I whole heartily agree, but in 2005 when I joined this forum there was already another member with the name krungthep or something very similar. I opted for the less correct Groongthep thinking that most people would still understand the reference.

[Groongthep]

OK, I hate to resurrect the transcription/transliteration debate but when one reads the headlines in the Bangkok Post using Preah Vihear to refer to พระวิหาร does it strike anyone other than me as ridiculous. Being as they are the most widely read english language newspaper in Thailand I assume they are using the RTGS but I think it just goes to show how poor that system is. The average person reading this paper cannot read Thai and would have no idea how to even come close to correctly pronouncing the name of this temple when they spell it this way. It should be something like "Prah! Wihahn" but yes, I know it could be spelled in various different ways depending on where you learned english, but certainly Preah Vihear is not anywhere close no matter where you learned english. Sorry this is a bit of a rant but I sure wish some Thai academics would get together and reform the RTGS. I realize they could never come up with a system that would be satisfactory to everyone but there has got to be something better than this.

I believe that the transcription you refer to reflects the Cambodian pronunciation, not a rendition of the Thai name. If you go to The Nation newspaper website, the initial screen will allow you to download a lengthy pdf file containing pictures and the proposal for making this site a World Heritage Site. The document may be downloaded in English or in French. The official name of the site in the English document is Preah Vihear which reflects the official Cambodian nomenclature. For example, this is from the Press Release:

"Both sides agreed to fulfill commitments envisaged in the Decision of the 31st Session of the World Heritage

Committee to ensure Cambodia’s formal inscription of the Temple of Preah Vihear on the World Heritage List at the

32nd Session in July 2008."

In today's Postbag section of the Bangkok Post (June 25, 2008) a Vic Phanumpa criticizes the editors for using the French spelling of เขาพระวิหาร (Khao) "Preah Vihear". Being that the original document was probably written in French it would appear that you are both correct. That being said, I still think the RTGS has serious drawbacks. I fear that because it is a 'royal" patronized system that there are those who may be reluctant to reform it.

[Groongthep]

In today's Postbag section of the Bangkok Post (June 25, 2008).....

Sorry, the issue I was refering to was Thursday June 26, not the 25th.

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

Encouraged by Khun Groongthep and the other posters I just purchased a book entitled, "ไทยแพ้คดีเสียดินแดนให้เขมร" published last year by the Animate Group; the book sells for 170 baht. On page 10 it says,

"ประสาทเขาพระวิหารภาษาเขมรเรียกว่า "เปรี๊๊ยะ วิเฮียร์" . . . "

This Thai transcription certainly makes the French and international spelling "Preah Vihear" look pretty good, no?

[5tash]

Another one that had baffled me, until recently, was the spelling of the Laos capital of Vientiane. I found that this is the French spelling as well. In Lao, Vientiane is written as ວຽງຈັນ , which I would transcribe into English as Wiang-jan. I'm not sure if the French transcription is from the written or spoken form.

The spelling of Vientiane in Thai can be found in a number of different ways; เวียงจันทน์ เวียงจันท์ เวียงจันทร์ เวียงจัน.

The reason you get these variations in the spellings is due reforms in the Lao language over the past 50 years. The number of consonant letters have been reduced so that words can be read phonetically. This was done so that non-Lao ethnic groups could read the language more easily. The result is that the current Lao system doesn't follow Sanskrit as closely as Thai in spelling of it's words and the Sanskrit origin is harder to spot.

Lao words are spelt phonetically and there are more homonyms than in Thai. Today's spelling of ວຽງຈັນ translated into Thai is เวียงจจันทร์ (City of the Moon) but considered to be the Thai official spelling is เวียงจันทน์ (Sandalwood City), which derives from the original Sanskrit spelling and the way it was spelt before the Lao reforms.

Edited June 26, 2008 by 5tash

[DavidHouston]

Lao words are spelt phonetically and there are more homonyms than in Thai. Today's spelling of ວຽງຈັນ translated into Thai is เวียงจจันทร์ (City of the Moon) but considered to be the Thai official spelling is เวียงจันทน์ (Sandalwood City), which derives from the original Sanskrit spelling and the way it was spelt before the Lao reforms.

That's an excellent explanation, 5tash. However, what did the Laotians intend. Did they intend that the name of the city be Sandalwood City or City of the Moon? Are there superstitions or ancient tales that are associated with the founding of the city which would indicate intent one way or the other? Thanks again.

[Richard W]

I used to have more of a problem with the Royal Thai Institute System. Then I was instructed that it is a transliteration system, not a transcription system. It endeavors to preserve spelling and not sound as preserving a words historic meaning and the ability to re-transliterate back to the original language has precedence for them.

You're thinking of the 'graphic system'. The RTGS is a phonetic system that systematiclly omits length and tone and additonally merges a pair of consonants and a pair of vowels.

[Xangsamhua]

Lao words are spelt phonetically and there are more homonyms than in Thai. Today's spelling of ວຽງຈັນ translated into Thai is เวียงจจันทร์ (City of the Moon) but considered to be the Thai official spelling is เวียงจันทน์ (Sandalwood City), which derives from the original Sanskrit spelling and the way it was spelt before the Lao reforms.

That's an excellent explanation, 5tash. However, what did the Laotians intend. Did they intend that the name of the city be Sandalwood City or City of the Moon? Are there superstitions or ancient tales that are associated with the founding of the city which would indicate intent one way or the other? Thanks again.

Unless my memory is playing tricks (as it may be in my dotage), Vientiane has always been เวียงจันทน์ (sorry, don't have Lao script) - the city of sandalwood. Certainly it was when I lived there between 1969 and 1975.

[Groongthep]

Friends,

Encouraged by Khun Groongthep and the other posters I just purchased a book entitled, "ไทยแพ้คดีเสียดินแดนให้เขมร" published last year by the Animate Group; the book sells for 170 baht. On page 10 it says,

"ประสาทเขาพระวิหารภาษาเขมรเรียกว่า "เปรี๊๊ยะ วิเฮียร์" . . . "

This Thai transcription certainly makes the French and international spelling "Preah Vihear" look pretty good, no?

Wow, terrific job of research by DavidHouston. เปรี๊๊ยะ วิเฮียร์ would certainly explain where the spelling "Preah Vihear" came from. As Vic Phanumpa asked in his letter to the editor, the question of why the Bangkok Post, a Thai newspaper written in English would use the (French?) transcription of the Khmer pronunciation rather than the Thai pronunciation remains, but that question would probably be better suited for the Thai News clippings forum rather than the language forum. Anyway...it's not that big of a deal, I just thought it may be an interesting topic for discussion here on TV. Thanks to everyone, especially DavidHouston for the insightful responses.

[thithi]

everybody [not Thai] calls it Preah Vihear ... so Bangkok Post needs it to be standard

IT's not a thai name tho. the syllables พระ-วิ-หาร are not Thai words ... thai borrowed from khmer

so what would New York time call it then ???

[Rikker]

To add my support, Vientiane/เวียงจันทน์ is indeed 'sandalwood city'. It's a good example of the frustrating ambiguities of post-spelling-reform Lao, where words like

'moon' and 'sandalwood' are now pronounced and written identically. The meaning 'city of the moon' meaning is a common mistaken assumption. I first learned this myself in Asger Mollerup's Thai-Isan-Lao Phrasebook (White Orchid Press), in which he notes that he believed it to mean 'city of the moon' for many years, due to this ambiguity of the modern language.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Rikker

[meadish_sweetball]

...he notes that he believed it to mean 'city of the moon' for many years, due to this ambiguity of the modern language.

So did I, up until reading this topic. Thank you all for taking it up.

[5tash]

Thank you Rikker, you're a world of information as ever. So in the Lao language ຈັນ , can mean either sandalwood or moon. If you were to transcribe ຈັນ letter by letter into Thai you would get จัน, which is the Thai name for "gold apple". Just adding another dimension to the name ວຽງຈັນ.

[5tash]

Lao words are spelt phonetically and there are more homonyms than in Thai. Today's spelling of ວຽງຈັນ translated into Thai is เวียงจจันทร์ (City of the Moon) but considered to be the Thai official spelling is เวียงจันทน์ (Sandalwood City), which derives from the original Sanskrit spelling and the way it was spelt before the Lao reforms.

That's an excellent explanation, 5tash. However, what did the Laotians intend. Did they intend that the name of the city be Sandalwood City or City of the Moon? Are there superstitions or ancient tales that are associated with the founding of the city which would indicate intent one way or the other? Thanks again.

Following David's question I decided to search for some more information. So, I started a thread on another forum which is frequented by Lao people. It's interesting to see the conflicting views as to what the real meaning of Vientiane is. The debate is still in full flow, and I'm finding it very interesting.

Story about Vientiane.

[Richard W]

Wow, terrific job of research by DavidHouston. เปรี๊๊ยะ วิเฮียร์ would certainly explain where the spelling "Preah Vihear" came from.

The first 'ea' is more like the diphthongal pronuncation of the vowel in words like English 'bear', except that it is a short diphthonge. The seond 'ea' is like the Thai vowel used in the Thai transliteration. The final 'r' is silent in the standard language, though not in Isan.

Richard.

[DavidHouston]

From today's The Nation:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/11/14...cs_30088415.php

regarding the effect of the spelling debate on the current negotiations.