Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[garro]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

Edited July 11, 2008 by garro

[JimmyTheMook]

I say no. We are not forced to live here and anyone with basic logic can see how poorly run Thailand and it's society is, but still probably a lot more fun than back home.

Edited July 11, 2008 by JimmyTheMook

[david1806]

mmm. i'm not in any way arguing with you or being trollish, i just don't think it's a yes or no answer. it just depends on the subject, the context and other things.

for example, while living in thailand, i think its totally ok to moan about how thailand does all it can do to make it difficult for the farang (especially when you consider all that the UK does for its foreigners, but thats another story...!) - it's just plain wrong some of their policies and practices. whereas, its unacceptable for example, to say its wrong of us to critcise the king, or to criticise the government etc. there are many things that come under the umbrella of "if you don't like, then LEAVE!!"

anyhows, that's my pennies worth. sorry if it's just waffle. i've got time on my hands, humour me!!!

as for my vote, its a yes sometimes, no at others.....

d

[britmaveric]

Well if I thought it would enable change for the better than I would say yes, but basically wasting your breathe.

[kat]

I do believe a person needs to fit in as much as reasonably possible with the culture. That means observing laws and customs respectfully, without compromising a basic modicum of human rights and agency.

That said, I do think it is perfectly acceptable and expected that expats should be able to come onto an expat site and talk openly about widely-shared difficulties in a foreign culture. Otherwise, we are talking about censorship or a full-frontal lobotomy, and neither are acceptable.

[PhilHarries]

Poll is too black and white and I don't understand the "so critical" bit but I answered yes but would add a rider that it is a qualified yes.

There is little doubt that Thailand is a great place to live and better than our home countries in many respects. However there is no doubt that there are many things done in Thailand that could be done better and not necessarily how they are done back in our home countries.

Should we feel free to point those issues out and suggest ways they could be improved? Yes, provided it is constructive criticism, of course we should otherwise we are rejecting the most important part of our education that being an open and critical mind.

If you want to be a dumb "follow the herd" animal and merely exist in the country without at least trying to point out where improvements can be made you are well on the way to mindless oblivion.

However there is a fine line between criticism and endless whinging and defining that line is the most difficult part of living in Thailand, or any other foriegn country for that matter. If you feel you should criticise something at least have a viable alternative in mind and be prepared for that to be criticised by others in turn.

It might be easier for me being a design engineer. One of the first lessons we learn is that there is always more than one way to achieve the end result and we have to learn to accept criticism. Many times we come up with a design that's the best thing since sliced bread only for somebody to glance at it and say something like "you haven't considered the torsional load component in the diagonal brace" and it's back to the drawing board.

[nidge]

I voted no but i also would like to vote yes, purely for the English. I think because they are all happy to complain about the state of the UK, (in all aspects), they should be allowed to do the same elsewhere. For those other nationalities that believe their country is the best in the world it's a different matter. If you can't see the huge problems in your own country, (and every country has them), then you should keep your mouth shut about the place you CHOSE to live.

Nidge

[cloudhopper]

No we shouldn't be; it's a soverign nation and culture. But it's the nature of the human mind to be critical, and well, here we are....

[slapout]

Why should Thailand not be critized by its expat community. Reading the Forum topics I notice a lot of critial remarks about the USA, England, Austrlia, Several countries in the Middle East as well as Africa, etc. In todays world of televison, internet, newsprint, etc, I think it points to a better informed public. Critical discussion or debate presents a wide range of views and reasoning, thus more information for those who are inclined to listen to other points of view. Many changes in history have come about due to critial assesment of precieved wrongs or injustice to minority groups. Improvement of any kind probably came about after someome critized the provided or accepted method, thinking or device. I do not think the world as we know it today could not have left the stone age without critical voices starting the change.

[kat]

I voted no but i also would like to vote yes, purely for the English. I think because they are all happy to complain about the state of the UK, (in all aspects), they should be allowed to do the same elsewhere. For those other nationalities that believe their country is the best in the world it's a different matter. If you can't see the huge problems in your own country, (and every country has them), then you should keep your mouth shut about the place you CHOSE to live.

Nidge

I'll raise you one. I think expats should be able to come onto a site and be critical of Thailand, their own countries, themselves, and England and the English, as the circumstances require, which is often.

[Ulysses G.]

I voted no but i also would like to vote yes, purely for the English. I think because they are all happy to complain about the state of the UK, (in all aspects), they should be allowed to do the same elsewhere. For those other nationalities that believe their country is the best in the world it's a different matter. If you can't see the huge problems in your own country, (and every country has them), then you should keep your mouth shut about the place you CHOSE to live.

Nidge

How about if you realize that your own country has huge problems, but you still think that it is the best in the world. Is that politically correct enough?

[idrankwhat]

I honestly think the reason I don't have any expat friends is because the ones I have had in the past have embarrassed me and publically humiliated me in front of Thai people by criticizing everything quite loudly and treating the general population like servants. The good news is none of them belong to this forum nor do they qualify for visas so they are probably no longer in the country.

If I truly felt the same way as people who bash Thailand seem to feel I would very simply go home there is nothing wrong with my country (well you know what I mean) and I'm not hiding from anyone or anything. Sometimes I get the distinct feeling that people that whine and complain about Thailand do it because they can't return home for some devious reason and they want to shape Thailand into their version of home. I also have to look at the people doing the complaining and find most of them in the pub not in gainful employment or in friendships with educated Thai people. But hey, that's just what I think, opinion is not necessarily fact or truth.

[mizzi39]

I voted no! Since there are pros and cons in every country who am I to complain? When in Rome do what the Romans do or "get out of dodge." I am here because I CHOOSE to live here, no one is forcing me to and I assume that no one is forcing you either, so for all of you whiners, please tone it down since it reflects (negatively) on the rest of us.

[Naam]

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

[poshthai]

One should have an informed opinion but some people can turn that around and call it critisism.I certainly love Thailand compared to my country but i have the rightto vent my frustrations some times.Same as your beloved football team,we congratulate one minute and critisise the next.

[draggons]

I think we have the right to be critical but certainly not to interfere. It was our choice to come and live here and overall the quality of life for us here is a lot better than back in our home countries.

[kat]

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

That's where I disagree. I think the human rights violations of others such as Burmese, ethnic minorities, and foreigners under the law is everyone's business.

[TheDon]

No,

i say they need to run it, otherwise its would not be Thailand.

If you dont lik it your not forced to live there. All countries have there issues really, there is complainers in all countries

[PhilHarries]

What is it with you people, why are you so afraid of criticism?

Do you live inside a bubble that reflects back your idealised perception of life so that you are oblivious to the social injustices that abound? Do you sweep through the land encapsulated in your air conditioned limosine insulated against the carnage on the roads exacerbated by ineffectual policing? Do you exist isolated on your little farms unknowing and uncaring for the masses that live in cities where, due to corruption, the infrastructure is crumbling?

Are we all supposed to join you in your zombiod existance looking through eyes that don't see, hearing through ears that don't listen just wandering around saying "There are no problems everything is perfect.....brrrrr.....everything is perfect.....brrrrr.....everything is perfect..."

As I said before there is a fine line between criticism and whinging.

Complaining that the BiB do nothing for crime prevention and very little in the way of detection is a valid criticism.

Complaining that Big C doesn't stock your favourite brand of pickled gherkins is whinging.

Somewhere in between is a dividing line that, most probably, is in a different position according to our individual opinions.

Yes, our opinions and criticisms are irrelevant in a foriegn land where at best we are tolerated but is it better to speak no matter how ineffectually or stay silent because it is not our country, not our business?

[GaiYaang]

No,

i say they need to run it, otherwise its would not be Thailand.

If you dont lik it your not forced to live there. All countries have there issues really, there is complainers in all countries

I'm with TheDon NO

we complained all the time here in TV about Thailand, but in reality we won't do it outside for safety reasons.

I wonder who run Iraq today.

[JSixpack]

Yeah, stick it to 'em whenever they deserve it. We ain't "guests" here: we're paying customers. Another long "dry" weekend is coming up for the farang bars and venues . . . .

[MeaMaximaCulpa]

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

Naam, are you sure you didn't mix up your medication this morning?

[toybits]

Just because they do it in other countries does not make it proper. It just shows that there are a lot of people who have something to gripe about.

The standards for good manners in your own country might not be the same in Thailand. If it is alright for Thais to be critical about things in your country - so be it. It does not mean that you have the right or be critical about things in Thailand. It will not be allowed or be frowned upon.

In a rapidly globalizing community, people will try to push their way of life on other people. I find that regrettable and rather repulsive.

Why should Thailand not be critized by its expat community. Reading the Forum topics I notice a lot of critial remarks about the USA, England, Austrlia, Several countries in the Middle East as well as Africa, etc. In todays world of televison, internet, newsprint, etc, I think it points to a better informed public. Critical discussion or debate presents a wide range of views and reasoning, thus more information for those who are inclined to listen to other points of view. Many changes in history have come about due to critial assesment of precieved wrongs or injustice to minority groups. Improvement of any kind probably came about after someome critized the provided or accepted method, thinking or device. I do not think the world as we know it today could not have left the stone age without critical voices starting the change.

[Moonrakers]

I was late for work this morning.

The reason being was that my car was blocked in by the "Poo-Yai" appartment owner, who could not be disturbed from her natter with a friend to kindly move her car a few meters for me. I was patient for a good 15 minutes until, to the awe of those around me, I got out of the car to politley remind this lady that my wife and I have to work and my daughter go to school, she knew that I was waiting all the time. She moved the car.

Culture or not this lady was just being plain ignorant, and as a tax-payer (And a paying customer to HER appartment building), I was not buying into this Poo-Yai crap.

I think that my answer would be that it is down to an individual basis.

[toybits]

Raising the issue of Human rights violations is like reporting to the police that John stole a candy so that the police will not notice that you stole a pen. Its just a matter of who got to the police first.

Countries like the US have been using this trick for so long. It used to be the Red Scare! Then it was about Drugs, Intellectual Property Issues, etc. Now the lastest baby is Human Trafficking!

All of these are just buttons to push to keep countries like Thailand, unsettled so that the superpowers can plunder other countries at will. It is a tool to deflect attention from the real issues at hand.

Just like a magician - sleigh of hand, misdirection, switch and before you know it - you've been s cr ewed.

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

That's where I disagree. I think the human rights violations of others such as Burmese, ethnic minorities, and foreigners under the law is everyone's business.

[sgunn65]

Can you not be critical of something whilst at the same time enjoying the benefits. I am British and could be incredibly critical of the UK but still love it. I choose to live in Thailand and invest alot of money into the economy, employ 12 Thai's and spend in local businesses wherever possible. I am treated as a second class citizen by the authorities and made to jump through hoops all the time in order to do this. Am I critical of the system? YES! Do I think it could be improved? YES! Shall I get my coat and leave? NO!

On balance I like it here and I am able to do things I could not at home. One of our staff has a drink problem so I have given him 2 months paid leave and I am paying for him to go to rehab. I could not do that in the UK but I can here.

When you hear the moaners it is usually about the system not the people. Unfortunately the people are the product of the system. Whinging doesn't change things neither does it harm things and sometimes it can have a positive effect as a release.

To anyone thinking of replying to this with a " if you don't like it leave". Don't bother. I am staying and will continue to be critical of the system and continuie to invest money into the local economy and people. I may change nothing but one day the Thai people will. As the emerging middle classes become more organised and vocal there will be change. And this change will ultimately benefit those of us who want to live here and do business as they will realise foreign investment handled correctly will benefit the country. For the knuckle draggers the outcome may not be so benevolent.

[toybits]

I'd say she was a bi tch

I was late for work this morning.

The reason being was that my car was blocked in by the "Poo-Yai" appartment owner, who could not be disturbed from her natter with a friend to kindly move her car a few meters for me. I was patient for a good 15 minutes until, to the awe of those around me, I got out of the car to politley remind this lady that my wife and I have to work and my daughter go to school, she knew that I was waiting all the time. She moved the car.

Culture or not this lady was just being plain ignorant, and as a tax-payer (And a paying customer to HER appartment building), I was not buying into this Poo-Yai crap.

I think that my answer would be that it is down to an individual basis.

[bkkjames]

In my opinion bad service and poor quality is the same where ever you are. Just because we are visiting / living here, why should that preclude our right to voice an opinion? It's up to the locals if they want to listen to it and / or act upon it.

IMO, the only locals that I hear complaining about farangs complaining are the one's that are, and should be, most affraid of the complaints themselves. (evoking Thai logic into the arguement for sake of colour .

Scam artists, theives etc should get a hard time, local or farang, here or abroad IMO.

For the most part though, I believe that those who volley criticisms about this place do so because they care so much about it.

[Spee]

I answered yes, but I could have answered no just as easily and I think all answers need to be qualified.

If someone is a visitor on a tourist visa, and has few if any rights in the host country, then I think one is entitled only to one's opinion as long as that opinion doesn't cross the bounds of law or good taste.

On the other hand, if one is a legal resident with some rights in the host country, and especially if a permanent resident, paying taxes, etc., then one should have the right to be more outspoken, but again, as long as one stays within the bounds of law.

While there are obviously things in Thailand of which to be critical, there are as many or more things of which to be praised. So I think in all fairness, one can be critical if one wants to, but staying on the free rant express full time is uncalled for.

Is the cup half empty or half full? Or would people rather complain full time up until the glass is full to the brim?

[Maigo6]

I was patient for a good 15 minutes until, to the awe of those around me, I got out of the car to politley remind this lady that my wife and I have to work and my daughter go to school, she knew that I was waiting all the time. She moved the car.

I was not buying into this Poo-Yai crap.

Obviously you do buy into it or you would have asked her to move her car 15 minutes earlier like you would have done if it was another Farang.