Should Ex-pats Be So Critical Of Thailand

[garro]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

You should know by now, about the meaning of the "freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press" in thailand, just same same as the function of "the department of patent & intelligence".

The constitution is written for citizens, not for foreign nationals. However that is at the Federal level. How things are handled at the lower/local level is an entirely different matter. However you as 'an expat" , I think, you can directly "impact" the local voters for the changes locally. Regardless, what an expat does to directly impacts the citizen or local voter, THAT is the other matters.

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

I know, sometimes it hard not to think when you see things that don't make sense.

But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

The fact of life is : You're outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it's just a basic survival skill.

Even if the changes seem to be better according to the western ideology, or common sense - but again you're just the minority and outnumbered- so it won't mean much.

You may make a dent in the lower/ local level but not in the federal level.

For example, like in Pattaya, Phuket, Huahin, or any farang ghettos, you may be able to express your thoughts or views and be reciprocated back better. Start with the local level where you live, you then will be able to voice more of your opinions in the future, with a farther impact.

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

As for for other married ones: if you don't like something, ask your wife, she's thai and can be able to have some influences, to pass along your thoughts/idea of changes.

So in conclusion, don't be so critical if you expect changes to your ways, because you don't have numbers on your side, just yet. May be in the future of your lukreungs?

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

[wintermute]

To be honest I find many of the farangs complaining to be condescending and more than a little racist at times. I don't have any problems with genuine complaints but a lot of the whining is done because things are "not like back home" etc.. If things are so much better back home then why aren't you back home? Usually this causes most of the more avid sport complainers to shut up right away.

Most Thais i've met are more than accomodating towards Farang guests. Try whining, moaning, and generally acting like a rude uncouth dipsh*t in some parts of the U.S. You'll get your rear end stomped so hard and fast that it'll make your head spin. Thais are tolerant in regards to this sort of farang behavior. I am disgusted by a lot of expats that I see and I am actually amazed there isn't a whole lot more attitude shown towards some of these people.

I don't know about anyone else but I much prefer the living standard I enjoy here than many other countries i've been to. As foreigners it's not our place to argue or constantly lambast the government or people. After all, it's not like this is Myanmar where real human rights violations are being perpetrated daily.

[garro]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

You should know by now, about the meaning of the "freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press" in thailand, just same same as the function of "the department of patent & intelligence".

The constitution is written for citizens, not for foreign nationals. However that is at the Federal level. How things are handled at the lower/local level is an entirely different matter. However you as 'an expat" , I think, you can directly "impact" the local voters for the changes locally. Regardless, what an expat does to directly impacts the citizen or local voter, THAT is the other matters.

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

I know, sometimes it hard not to think when you see things that don't make sense.

But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

The fact of life is : You're outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it's just a basic survival skill.

Even if the changes seem to be better according to the western ideology, or common sense - but again you're just the minority and outnumbered- so it won't mean much.

You may make a dent in the lower/ local level but not in the federal level.

For example, like in Pattaya, Phuket, Huahin, or any farang ghettos, you may be able to express your thoughts or views and be reciprocated back better. Start with the local level where you live, you then will be able to voice more of your opinions in the future, with a farther impact.

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

As for for other married ones: if you don't like something, ask your wife, she's thai and can be able to have some influences, to pass along your thoughts/idea of changes.

So in conclusion, don't be so critical if you expect changes to your ways, because you don't have numbers on your side, just yet. May be in the future of your lukreungs?

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

Correction: the 'so' was in the title and the poll question which seemed ample at the time.

[GuestHouse]

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I've read some pompous garbage in my time, but this about takes the cookie.

Unable to grasp why other people hold and express their thoughts/feelings (unless of course they agree with your or are Thai) you now assign their motivations as above.

Utter Garbage Garro... and curiously, exactly the kind of negative sweeping generalizations of which you yourself complain.

[slapout]

Me thinks as this is a poll in which we vote, people who put some thought into a response and vote may come back to review comments and get other peoples thoughts. Why argue? The votes have been cast, can't change them, listen/ (read) and be informed (I did not say learn for obivious reasons).

[KKK]

Freedom of speech is a basic right in any country that calls itself democratic. But the right to speak doesn't mean that the speaker is right.

[Jingthing]

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

I am going to answer this from the perspective of someone on a retirement extension. I think I will get flamed for this, but I think it is good to say it.

The Thai Visa system for retirees invites us to live here, on a ONE YEAR at a time basis, with no path whatsoever to EVER increase our status of stability here in Thailand. We are given the clear message, we are only as good as our latest financial status. This is our interface with official Thailand. It is not compassionate, it is strictly mercenary.

So, to answer for myself, why don't I get more involved in helping the Thai community around me? I have internalized the reality of my situation as a permanent tourist. It is not my community, really. I am not really ever allowed to be fully settled here, at least while alive. A person could move here at 50 and live here 30 years, and at 80 have the exact same temporary status as he had at 50.

I don't expect everyone will relate to what I said, and I can see that other people on other visa classes, especially those leading to potential permanent residency would feel very differently. Perhaps most retirees feel differently, but from my point of view, they are somewhat delusional.

There is also the very real issue of not being legally allowed to perform any work without a work permit.

In my view, yes here is another criticism, Thailand could ease up on the xenophobic, shabby way it treats expat retirees. It should offer a path towards permanent residence and it would indeed reap the rewards of people who would give a much greater commitment to Thailand in appreciation of that kind gesture. We like/love/want to live in Thailand, or we wouldn't be here. But love is a TWO WAY STREET.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[HelterSkelter]

Raising the issue of Human rights violations is like reporting to the police that John stole a candy so that the police will not notice that you stole a pen. Its just a matter of who got to the police first.

Countries like the US have been using this trick for so long. It used to be the Red Scare! Then it was about Drugs, Intellectual Property Issues, etc. Now the lastest baby is Human Trafficking!

All of these are just buttons to push to keep countries like Thailand, unsettled so that the superpowers can plunder other countries at will. It is a tool to deflect attention from the real issues at hand.

Just like a magician - sleigh of hand, misdirection, switch and before you know it - you've been s cr ewed.

my vote is no as it's none of our business (although i admit having critical thoughts quite often).

That's where I disagree. I think the human rights violations of others such as Burmese, ethnic minorities, and foreigners under the law is everyone's business.

Expats/People should Be critical of Every land not only Thailand(Within Reason and unwinginly).

Because it IS a global situation we live in and face.And our children will inherit the legacy of our present lifestiles and decisions and even interactions!(Generational Debt Slavery at present!)

We (Farang Corperations and Governments) sold this present "Developed"infrastructure to Thailand and other "Developing"nations. The Bank Loans, morgages,credit card frenzy,Pick Up Truck/Petrol Wasting madness, and the "Show Off" Marketing culture.Of Coarse We should Voice Intelligent caution.

After all wether We are "Paying Customers" or Husband,wives or Freinds,We Are Brothers and Sisters of a Global Family! YES!

It sounds interesting. Coud please someone translate in english ?

Of Coarse if You ("Coud") could Write and read it well enough!

Translation: If One has nothing to offer,then one probably has nothing to give!

Simple,If One is not part of the solution,then One must be part of the problem.

Living fish swim against the current,Dead fish float with the current!Capicé?

And we'll add a reference to Your earlier comment about" Most Farangs being losers in their

Homeland.And therfore coming to LOS".Speak for Yourself !(If the shoe fits?)

I don't feel Thailand is a "refuge" for "Losers".It is potentially a very Good nation!

[Samuian]

Teacup:

......But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Is "adjusting" just about shut up, swallow it raw and go on?

Teacup:

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

"Used" is the wrong term, it's directing, as in "lost it"!

It is not necessarily so, and how can someone "already know" when moving to a different country, not everyone has been on a migrant status right from the beginning, there is a heck of a bunch of people helping to get inportant things in this country done, up and running!

Teacup:

The fact of life is : You’re outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it’s just a basic survival skill.

Yes, this is why the PAD Movement is out there in the roads!

"Minority" and?

Maybe "criticism" or better discussing environmental, political, issues of the fabric of society, being critical about certain things one is confronted in daily life isn't really negativity, to be up in arms against this - is very negative - it means to hold up the status quo and insist that everything is right.... this is one point!

Ahh...well I don't want to start again....ask Thai Opposition Politicians, "Intellectuals" from the various Universities, Chuan Leekpai, Prawase Wasi, Chamlong Srimuang, Sulak Shivaraksa...listen to what they trying to say since years...they are THAI, there are many out there and most of them are not simply "troublemakers"!

After all it has nothing really to do with "the Thailand of Thai people", it is about right or wrong anywhere on the planet and this happens to be a Thai Forum...so I guess the issues raised, are about Thailand...

"Go Home" is a reaction as mature as Kindergarten level!

Edited July 14, 2008 by Samuian

[garro]

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I've read some pompous garbage in my time, but this about takes the cookie.

Unable to grasp why other people hold and express their thoughts/feelings (unless of course they agree with your or are Thai) you now assign their motivations as above.

Utter Garbage Garro... and curiously, exactly the kind of negative sweeping generalizations of which you yourself complain.

Pompous garbage? As much as I respect your knowledge about pompous garbage I do think that you are wrong about it in this case. I have merely said it as I see it on the basis of what I have read here. I am not make general statements about any race or nationality, just the possible motivations of a small group of posters who I am having this pleasant chat with here on this forum. The difference is that all the people I am referring to can easily defend their motivation, unlike the vast number of Thais who are regularly criticised here.

I do find the Thai view very interesting as it is not something which seems very important here.

Edited July 14, 2008 by garro

[desi]

I have internalized the reality of my situation as a permanent tourist.

Am I wrong in saying that feeling like a permanent tourist is how the majority of expats live in Thailand? Whether they are happy here or not?

I'm not against the notion actually. I did not like how I felt while living in the US. New Zealand was grand but not a daily picnic. The UK was fine but my pocketbook started feeling poorly. France, well... I've enjoyed living in other SE Asian countries but none made me feel like settling down.

I call Thailand home, but perhaps it's not really home in the western sense. It's where I feel good. It's also where I feel like I'm on a perpetual holiday. So maybe that's the ticket?

So, I guess I am a permanent tourist. Not too bad of a feeling really. Most people in the west only get this feeling once a year, and that's if they are lucky.

Note: I haven't been here five years yet, so who knows what'll change. I might turn into a grumpy 'ole farang myself some day (not pointing at anyone in particular). It's just that I found the permanent tourist concept interesting is all.

[Jingthing]

So, I guess I am a permanent tourist. Not too bad of a feeling really. Most people in the west only get this feeling once a year, and that's if they are lucky.

Hey, I agree it's not so bad! It is my choice to be here, and stay here as long as I can. I just was trying to explain why I don't feel any real commitment to the Thai community. If you are a tourist, why would you really care, excepting the Mother Theresas among us (good on you). I, and I think many expats, am open to being more than tourist, but like I said, in my view it is a two way street, and there is no give on the Thai gov side, at least for us geeza visa-ers.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Jingthing

[desi]

Hey, I agree it's not so bad! It is my choice to be here, and stay here as long as I can. I just was trying to explain why I don't feel any real commitment to the Thai community. If you are a tourist, why would you really care, excepting the Mother Theresas among us (good on you). I, and I think many expats, am open to being more than tourist, but like I said, in my view it is a two way street, and there is no give on the Thai gov side, at least for us geeza visa-ers.

I do understand your mindset. I've never been much of a community joiner so maybe that's why I'm just not that fussed. And while I'm no Mother Teresa, I haven't given up on giving back to the Thai community. I just haven't figured out how to do it without putting my visa in jeopardy is all. After checking it out, I no longer feel comfortable donating time to the orphanages north of BK. But yesterday I visited the Buddhist Nun Sanctuary (Mae Chee Sansanee Sthirasuta) to see how it's set up. It's going to take time to sort it out... but I have plenty of time so no problem.

[jbowman1993]

Life is too short to go through it being pissed off. That's why I don't read most of your posts lol

[CWMcMurray]

When in Rome do what the Romans do or "get out of dodge." I am here because I CHOOSE to live here, no one is forcing me to and I assume that no one is forcing you either, so for all of you whiners, please tone it down since it reflects (negatively) on the rest of us.

I vote yes... I live here because I choose to and if I were to live in the US or the UK or Korea or France or any other country it would also be because I chose to. Would that also prohibit me from criticizing any of those countries if I chose to live in them?

In today's world many of us can live where ever we chose to, one may even be able to make the argument that those who live in their "home" countries remain there only by choice.

or

Are you trying to say that the only country you are allowed to criticize is the one you were born in? Does that go for states or provinces and cities and towns? What about other people, can you only critcize those who hold the same citizenship or nationality or religion?

When am I allowed to think and reason and when must I shut it off and put the blinders on?

I believe all people are welcome to express their beliefs and criticize anyone or any government or company or organization they feel is doing wrong. (yes that includes me and the country I was born in as well).

If their aruments are foolish then they will appear foolish as well, but if their arguments have merit, some may listen.

Edited July 14, 2008 by CWMcMurray

[CWMcMurray]

Just to clarify my above post, that doesn't mean I spend my time enlessly criticizing Thailand or anyone else... but I do reserve the right to

[PeaceBlondie]

Is there a Thai constitutional scholar in the house who can quote chapter and verse of a constitutional prohibition on alien freedom of speech?

[dalmatian]

I voted 'No' although like many others a "Yes" is also a valid vote to a very generalised post.

I have chosen to live in a country where vehicles speed through traffic lights 4 seconds after they have turned red, where the police are stationed at school exits and happily wave schoolchildren through the gates usually with 2-3 young kids to a motorbike with not a helmet in sight and where I am subject to varying degrees of deception by Thai businesses on a regular basis. Do I like it, no! do I have an opinion, yes, do I have a right to criticise, probably not.

The very people we seem to criticise are usually the very people who can't help themselves, they just don't know any different. It's not their fault, they have been brought up not to question and only 'do as I say'. If it is to change to keep all us expats 'off their backs' then maybe it should start at school with education of what should be accepted as making a better country for all. There just has never been a willingness on the powers that be to educate the young or to enforce the laws (and there are laws).

I read the Pattaya Mail regularly and it is always full of critical sounding off, interesting read but unlikely to have any bearing on what will take place in the future. The fact is that criticism will only push change if it is at a federal/government level and that is unlikely to be made effective by foreigners making critical comments about everything they perceive to be wrong. The powers don't listen. Of course if we all moved enmasse out of Thailand it make make them think a little, probably not!

At a local level a lot can be done, most expats have girlfriends/wives/boyfriends that could speak out but what do you think they will say. The usual answer is 'don't get me involved', 'I am ok' or 'none of my business'. It is just a natural pastime of expats to speak out, sometimes positively, more often negatively because we have always had that luxury of free speech. Around my local area though some Thais are speaking out, councils have been set up to look at how to improve the living conditions for all residents, will that keep me happy, unlikely at first but small steps, small steps! It just does not improve the overall satisfaction of expats because these areas of improvement are very localised, not on a national level. Have you got water, some have, some don't. Have you got potholes in your roads, some do, some don't. Just luck of the draw.

It is obvious from the threads that some people are prepared for the culture shock of such a transition to a country like Thailand but quite a few, although happy to leave their own country, have not adapted so well and wish to install their safe way of life backhome on their new surroundings. It may happen someday but certainly not today so enjoy life if you can.

This is a great country, it does take a while to deal with the excentricities of the Thai way of life but I for one am happy I am here. Will I continue to bore my friends over a few drinks with my opinions, you bet, isn't that what we expats excel at!

[Samuian]

Is there a Thai constitutional scholar in the house who can quote chapter and verse of a constitutional prohibition on alien freedom of speech?

... well indirectly... guess Yes, but it's only a guess!

And this supposed to be no criticism and then as the signs given I wouldn't dig any further... after all Thailand for the Thais, should clear the last doubt and make the last voice of a "critical opinion" shut up!

I find the idea of the "permanent tourist" quite enchanting, almost enlightening...!

[kat]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

You should know by now, about the meaning of the "freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press" in thailand, just same same as the function of "the department of patent & intelligence".

The constitution is written for citizens, not for foreign nationals. However that is at the Federal level. How things are handled at the lower/local level is an entirely different matter. However you as 'an expat" , I think, you can directly "impact" the local voters for the changes locally. Regardless, what an expat does to directly impacts the citizen or local voter, THAT is the other matters.

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

I know, sometimes it hard not to think when you see things that don't make sense.

But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

The fact of life is : You're outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it's just a basic survival skill.

Even if the changes seem to be better according to the western ideology, or common sense - but again you're just the minority and outnumbered- so it won't mean much.

You may make a dent in the lower/ local level but not in the federal level.

For example, like in Pattaya, Phuket, Huahin, or any farang ghettos, you may be able to express your thoughts or views and be reciprocated back better. Start with the local level where you live, you then will be able to voice more of your opinions in the future, with a farther impact.

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

As for for other married ones: if you don't like something, ask your wife, she's thai and can be able to have some influences, to pass along your thoughts/idea of changes.

So in conclusion, don't be so critical if you expect changes to your ways, because you don't have numbers on your side, just yet. May be in the future of your lukreungs?

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

I respect Teacup's opinion, but the crux of the matter is that many of the criticisms about Thailand concern behavior toward other countries and other people, such as migrants and refugees. In addition, we have the issues of transnational migrants in both directions of Thailand, the West, and other countries. You have a police force that frequently factors into questions of international human rights with Western tourists, and a population that frequently voices sentiments about foreigners. That is no longer just a Thai issue or point of discussion, but a global one.

Also, what you seem to be forgetting, is that this is a website, not Thailand. It is called "Thaivisa", and by its very name is a website aimed at foreigners living in Thailand. The website itself is not owned by Thais, nor is it even hosted in Thailand. I can understand following the cultural customs while in Thailand, and respecting Thai culture, but this website does have basic ground rules regarding Thai culture and it is not even in Thailand! I fail to see any disrespect, given the fact that it is very much a fact in Thai culture that they can talk about foreigners right in front of their faces if they think they don't understand, and can rant as much as they want about foreigners on Thai websites, and even in Thai newspapers and in Thai government. So, in effect, a separate website for foreigners where they can come and talk openly about their lives in Thailand and Thai culture as they experience it is very much in line with the example set by Thais. If you are more comfortable with the Thai dominant point-of-view, then you should populate Thai dominated websites.

Edited July 14, 2008 by kat

[garro]

Finally, I see one tiny but critical adverb in the original question: "Should ex-pats be SO critical of Thailand?"

I think the adverb was not sufficiently explained in the OP, but garro and others emphasized it later.

teacup, I am disappointed in your answer. As a Thai, you wrote in part, "...And because the constitution is written for only thai citizens, not for foreign nationals. The only place their opinion matters much is in their own country. Why don't they stay there and voice that opinion and fix things?..." Are we only welcome here if we only always say effusive, positive things about Thailand? Should we say absolutely nothing about Thailand, whatsoever? You mention our countries, and about us voicing our opinions and fixing things in our own country - well, many of us spent our lives over there doing that. Do most Thais actually fix things in Thailand? I know Thais who live in my country (which they still call The Land of the Free) and Thais can have free speech, free press, etc. Foreigners such as Thais can even shout out loud against our President or other officials, without being jailed or deported. But I honestly thought that Thais do not care how it is done in Denver or Dublin. Does the constitution of Thailand only grant freedom of speech to Thai citizens?

You should know by now, about the meaning of the "freedom of speech, and the freedom of the press" in thailand, just same same as the function of "the department of patent & intelligence".

The constitution is written for citizens, not for foreign nationals. However that is at the Federal level. How things are handled at the lower/local level is an entirely different matter. However you as 'an expat" , I think, you can directly "impact" the local voters for the changes locally. Regardless, what an expat does to directly impacts the citizen or local voter, THAT is the other matters.

teacup, many farang consider Thailand to be our home. We cannot 'go back home.' Must be just shut up, smile, wai, and remain bent over?

I know, sometimes it hard not to think when you see things that don't make sense.

But part of life or living in Thailand, is be able to adjust yourself well in many ambiguous situations, or in the situations when things don't necessary seem to make sense.

Ask yourself why did you move to Thailand in the first place and what were some good things you used to see? When you move to Thailand, you should already know what to expect, not come here and try to change things or expect the changes in your favor.

The fact of life is : You're outnumbered, you are the minority here - smaller in number, but once you have enough number it may be possible that your voice may mean something. You are such a tiny dot compare to the majority here, it may be best to go along with the majority, it's just a basic survival skill.

Even if the changes seem to be better according to the western ideology, or common sense - but again you're just the minority and outnumbered- so it won't mean much.

You may make a dent in the lower/ local level but not in the federal level.

For example, like in Pattaya, Phuket, Huahin, or any farang ghettos, you may be able to express your thoughts or views and be reciprocated back better. Start with the local level where you live, you then will be able to voice more of your opinions in the future, with a farther impact.

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

As for for other married ones: if you don't like something, ask your wife, she's thai and can be able to have some influences, to pass along your thoughts/idea of changes.

So in conclusion, don't be so critical if you expect changes to your ways, because you don't have numbers on your side, just yet. May be in the future of your lukreungs?

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

I respect Teacup's opinion, but the crux of the matter is that many of the criticisms about Thailand concern behavior toward other countries and other people, such as migrants and refugees. In addition, we have the issues of transnational migrants in both directions of Thailand, the West, and other countries. You have a police force that frequently factors into questions of international human rights with Western tourists, and a population that frequently voices sentiments about foreigners. That is no longer just a Thai issue or point of discussion, but a global one.

Also, what you seem to be forgetting, is that this is a website, not Thailand. It is called "Thaivisa", and by its very name is a website aimed at foreigners living in Thailand. The website itself is not owned by Thais, nor is it even hosted in Thailand. I can understand following the cultural customs while in Thailand, and respecting Thai culture, but this website does have basic ground rules regarding Thai culture and it is not even in Thailand! I fail to see any disrespect, given the fact that it is very much a fact in Thai culture that they can talk about foreigners right in front of their faces if they think they don't understand, and can rant as much as they want about foreigners on Thai websites, and even in Thai newspapers and in Thai government. So, in effect, a separate website for foreigners where they can come and talk openly about their lives in Thailand and Thai culture as they experience it is very much in line with the example set by Thais. If you are more comfortable with the Thai dominant point-of-view, then you should populate Thai dominated websites.

Sorry Kat, but most of the criticism I read on here is just petty and frequently racist/sexist. I find it all a bit draining and perhaps you, and others, are right that I should populate a different website.

Edited July 14, 2008 by garro

[kiakaha]

Simple poll and a simple question. Should ex-pats be critical of the way Thais choose to do things?

Do those who say 'yes' believe that immigrants in their country should be critical or should they just try and fit in with the host countries laws and ways? Do those who say 'no' believe that it is best to just ignore the bad and focus on the good - after all it's not like our opinion counts for much.

Well, if there is some tax payer funded service/facility/utility etc... that I am dissatisfied with, as a hefty tax payer, of course I have the right to be critical.In practice I wouldn't because it would be an exercise in futility though.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

garro, the oversight about that tiny word 'so' was my fault, not yours. However, the arguments in favor of us farang saying and doing nothing at all have been so loud and numerous that the tone of this topic has seemed to me to be very hostile to freedom of expression. It is only after about 150 posts that the "no" voters have seemed to stop telling us to shut up or go home. But that is a main message I am still getting from many "no" posters who are being quite negative, themselves.

Hey man, maybe I am just a cranky old hippie who is still upset after surviving a nearly fatal motorcycle wreck earlier this month (how is that for an appeal for sympathy ?). Lately, I spend most of my non-moderating time commenting in two threads. This thread is one, where I agree that some farang complain too much. However, other farang and Thais seem to be saying we should never complain about anything and we have no rights. The other thread is one that I started, where I point out that it is nearly impossible for farang to do volunteer work legally. This old pacifist would rather be preaching Christian pacifism or telling jokes.

So yes, garro, I agree there are some negative farang in Thailand who like to point out the problems that exist in this tropical paradise. Some posters complain too much, and I have mentioned that extremely negative views of Thailand are forbidden on ThaiVisa, and should be reported.

I have lots of positive opinions about Thailand even if they do not include the language or the food. Also, based on direct experience and lots of observations by others, I could not help notice that things are not perfect here. Will one or two of you no voters admit that we have a right (a natural right or a civic right) to mention when there is a problem? Have we no right to a constructive voice at all?

[PeaceBlondie]

teacup, thank you for your insightful comments. It is a joy to have Thais to comment on ThaiVisa.

[kat]

Sorry Kat, but most of the criticism I read on here is just petty and frequently racist/sexist. I find it all a bit draining and perhaps you, and others, are right that I should populate a different website.

I agree with you Garro, but I disagree with your method. There has already been a line drawn in the sand regarding a forbidden line to cross in Thai culture. The issue here is that you want to draw more lines in the sand, regarding opinions and points-of-view that you don't like. It is important to discern the difference between fact and opinion. If you can't counter with facts or substantiated arguments, your opinion is as good as any other's.

[geriatrickid]

Well, if there is some tax payer funded service/facility/utility etc... that I am dissatisfied with, as a hefty tax payer, of course I have the right to be critical.In practice I wouldn't because it would be an exercise in futility though.

Just as taxpayers located anywhere else would do.

Unfortunately, the self appointed guardians of stasis would label you "grumpy", no matter how justified your comments are. Maybe that's the problem: People twist legitimate opinions out of context and attach their own prejudices.

[kat]

Sorry Kat, but most of the criticism I read on here is just petty and frequently racist/sexist. I find it all a bit draining and perhaps you, and others, are right that I should populate a different website.

I agree with you Garro, but I disagree with your method. There has already been a line drawn in the sand regarding a forbidden line to cross in Thai culture. The issue here is that you want to draw more lines in the sand, regarding opinions and points-of-view that you don't like. It is important to discern the difference between fact and opinion. If you can't counter with facts or substantiated arguments, your opinion is as good as any other's.

However, I want to add Garro that I would be sad to see you go. I hope you decide to stay. We frequently don't see eye-to-eye, and that is exactly why I would want you to stay. What good is a website that has unanimous agreement on bland, generic topics? Do you really want to spend your time disagreeing on the velocity of bum guns, or Starbucks vs. KFC?

I know I don't, but I respect the right of those who do.

[garro]

Well teacup, it is very nice to get a Thai perspective, and I can sympathise with much that you say. This is not my country and the only people I can have influence on are those around me. Unfortunately the views of the Thai people dont seem to count for much among many of the posters (still slightly the minoirity in this poll but growing). They have their opinion of how Thailand should be and that is it. They have no interest in respecting the majority as they have no respect for what the majority think. Their own views are far more important and must be heard at every opportunity. Even to suggest that they might be too critical is too much for them. As they see it complaining about Thailand is their right.

I know that this website is a fantastic resource for many people and it is a social outlet, but I think that there are far more constructive ways of letting off steam.

PB_ I am sorry again that the word -'so' wasn't obvious. I thought that by putting the word in the title, the poll, and the opening post that it would be sufficient. This was obviously not enough and I should have arranged for some type of special hightlighting around the word - perhaps some fireworks and impressive music too.

garro, the oversight about that tiny word 'so' was my fault, not yours. However, the arguments in favor of us farang saying and doing nothing at all have been so loud and numerous that the tone of this topic has seemed to me to be very hostile to freedom of expression. It is only after about 150 posts that the "no" voters have seemed to stop telling us to shut up or go home. But that is a main message I am still getting from many "no" posters who are being quite negative, themselves.

Hey man, maybe I am just a cranky old hippie who is still upset after surviving a nearly fatal motorcycle wreck earlier this month (how is that for an appeal for sympathy ?). Lately, I spend most of my non-moderating time commenting in two threads. This thread is one, where I agree that some farang complain too much. However, other farang and Thais seem to be saying we should never complain about anything and we have no rights. The other thread is one that I started, where I point out that it is nearly impossible for farang to do volunteer work legally. This old pacifist would rather be preaching Christian pacifism or telling jokes.

So yes, garro, I agree there are some negative farang in Thailand who like to point out the problems that exist in this tropical paradise. Some posters complain too much, and I have mentioned that extremely negative views of Thailand are forbidden on ThaiVisa, and should be reported.

I have lots of positive opinions about Thailand even if they do not include the language or the food. Also, based on direct experience and lots of observations by others, I could not help notice that things are not perfect here. Will one or two of you no voters admit that we have a right (a natural right or a civic right) to mention when there is a problem? Have we no right to a constructive voice at all?

Do we have a natural right to be critical? I would say yes, but I'm unsure about what natural rights we have.

Should we be critical? What is medicine for you might be poison for me. I have found negativity just leads to more negativity.

Should we be so critical? I think that the criticism of Thailand is often way over the top.

I am very sorry to hear about your accident PB, and I hope you are back on your feet soon.

Edited July 14, 2008 by garro

[teacup]

Your very welcome........PeaceB

And thank you for that.....Kat

As for a few others - I will not feed into the cycle with those that yapping away with nothing else but negativities, but only those with reasonable and genuine concerns.

So now I will deal with some of 'Jingthing' comments - from "my own point of view"

You can start, for examples : help feeding the poor, tutor kids, take care of old people, pick up trash, build beautiful buildings and parks, donate your time to help others, volunteer at a hospital, etc. etc. Why didn't I see many expats doing these, even in their own local ghetto, instead of complaining or be soo critical about it? Instead of….I don't like that, and I don't like this !

There is also the very real issue of not being legally allowed to perform any work without a work permit.

Then why can’t you get legal then - for volunteer works that is, how much does it cost anyway? How difficult, is it?

May be you really don’t want to do it because you just can’t see the benefits for yourself?

For me, any volunteer works, I do it because it will not only make me feel good, but also improve the life of the end parties also. Having to obtain the work permit is not going to stop me, it will be only a minor obstacle that I have to jump over, no sweat.

If you really want to do it, I’m sure you will find ways to get it done, even with obstacles.

However I respect your decision of not wanting to do it also. I’m sure you must have your own reasons. But trying to use the work permit reason as the main reason, it’s just a bit lame to me.

When I was studying in the US, I had performed many volunteer works around the schools. Yes I didn’t have to get any work permit to do those, and they didn’t even help me improved my international student status, reduced my tuition fees, or given me any recognition awards. But I felt good about myself for helping out things or others in the community where I’m in, by doing it. I guess I’m just a bit more charitable person.

But I also could have said to myself, in a few years I will be gone from here, why bother?

In my view, yes here is another criticism, Thailand could ease up on the xenophobic, ....... We like/love/want to live in Thailand, or we wouldn't be here. But love is a TWO WAY STREET.

Have you ever thought of it from the other side also? Are there any reasons for “some” thais and the thai gov’t to act/react this way?

As for thais being xenophobic

Please don’t gobble up all thais together into one single homogeneous group based only from your own limited experiences.

Most thai don’t LOVE farangs, however we don’t hate farangs, but most are just indifferent. But LOVE?…you must be dreaming.

Even for me me I know all farangs are not the same, and even can categorized farangs into more than one single category, just about in 3 categories generally:

Some I just want to…..SLAP and kiss

Some I just want to …..SWAT then push into a nearby ditch

As for the rest……I just don’t care, coz they have nothing to do with me.

[kat]

Thanks to you also Teacup, for caring enough to add your point of view.