Unreasonable Searches Of Americans Laptops By Us Govt

[designgraphik90]

I had a laptop inspection after coming back from Thailand about 4 years ago. I had a mac powerbook at the time, and they were a bit confused on how to even use it. They asked for my laptop, after they had pulled up some info on my passport and such. I was a bit confused at first, thought maybe they were inspecting it for bomb stuff, no idea you know. Well they booted it up, and just started digging around on it, I wasn't bothered because I had nothing on it, but I did have materials in my case I felt were private and business documents that were of no concern of some pesky customs officials. I tried to see what they were doing for a minute, then the guy saw me,and moved it to where I couldn't, looking at me with disgust as if had already done something wrong. Me and my wife are both Americans (at the time in our late 20's), but my wife grew up in Bangkok and is 'racially' thai, but she was born in America. They didn't bother here, actually made her leave the area, and said it was a matter with me. Imagine the confusion...

Overall, they found nothing and seriously, they held us there for 30 minutes while scanning my machine. I asked why, did you find anything you looking for, and they just told me to carry on and leave. A few times after that, I was flagged coming back from Canada and Europe but just more extra bag searches, no laptop scans, but since then I have had no issues.

[Jingthing]

Paranoia...

"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." -- Wendell Phillips, (1811-1884), abolitionist, orator and columnist for The Liberator, in a speech before the Massachusetts Antislavery Society in 1852

[adam1]

Well, thanks everyone for all of your posts - very informative - am I to understand that normal erotica/porn is tolerated?

What about stuff related to the fascist nature of the Cheney/Rove era?

Is everyone aware of the danger of flying to Dubai with microscopic traces of marijuana on their clothing or shoes? Serious jailtime. Be careful which party you attend the night before.

Coming from Britain, I'm kinda used to the Big Brother State - it's a pain in the ass, and utterly wrong, and is one of the reasons I don't live there. By the way, a portion of the elite are of the opinion (and always have been) that the common man does not matter, and plans are afoot to make life hard for many, I'm sure.

America doesn't need bashing, it's blatantly on it's knees - but we do need to make noise about it so that those who are still sleepwalking might wake up to the horror show unfolding before our eyes. Totally totalitarian, if that's not tautology, just like the UK.

I just noticed that Rove just ignored his Subpoena - so much for law and the constitution. Btw, I do like most Americans very much: I find them frank, forthright, fair-minded and generally goodhearted.

[AsiaCheese]

...

There have been a few cases recently where offenders have been caught out because of incriminating images on their PC's/laptops and so it could also be effective.

The completely transparent "glass citizen" could also be effective... Are you [implicitly] saying that you don't mind having someone listen into your phone calls, reading your emails etc. etc.?

A lot of crap can be constructed from nothing-to-hide; many paranoïd governments have been known to do just that.

[sleir]

@Spee: http://www.nftc.org/default/visasurveyresults%20final.pdf

Not getting defensive, just asking for something other than what appears to be mindless speculation or blog droning.

It is not my duty to inform you about facts, I suggest you try to read yourself into the topic before accusing an informed post about speculation.

Not knowing something is normal and can be easily mended by information, not wanting to know something or refusing to read and inform is ignorance.

Since you are a conservative, pro-Bush american I tend to put you to the second category. I think as soon as you start to watch the news somewhere else than Fox news, you will quickly realize the huge information gap between american conservatives and the rest of the world. Glad it's over soon.

Edited July 13, 2008 by sleir

[Crushdepth]

A lot of crap can be constructed from nothing-to-hide; many paranoïd governments have been known to do just that.

And experience has shown that governments both 'good' and 'bad' will cheerfully abuse any information that comes their way. The only way to deal with the buggers is to take a vicious interest in keeping government noses out of the private business of ordinary citizens.

[lardy]

I could see how some people may see it as an invasion of privacy, although for me personally if the UK started then it wouldn't bother me as all they would find would be games, music, games, music and possibly the odd work related document.

There have been a few cases recently where offenders have been caught out because of incriminating images on their PC's/laptops and so it could also be effective.

And of course all that music was legally downloaded wasnt it??

[whatsoever]

You hiding smth jingthing? BTW its random mate, not sure why you are getting your panties in a wad for? If you fit criteria, then be prepared for a little inconvenience. Flying is not a right, just remember that.

Since when was flying not a right? If you understood only a smidgen of recent history you would know that these policys (facist/totalitairian) are brought in on the backs of the 'if you've not nothing to hide' brain dead idiots!

By your logic any nutter in a uniform can search an individuals private property for no given reason - and that should be ok. Read Hitler and Stalin

It was people with your attitude that allowed the rise of such facist dictators and the subsequent murder of millions upon millions of innocent victims

PS I think you should know that most Americans dont appreciate being refered to as Yanks - again just goes to highlight your ignorance

Edited July 13, 2008 by whatsoever

[lannarebirth]

I recently returned from a trip to the states to visit my father on the occasdion of his 80th birthday.

I didn't have any issues with customs , all pretty painless. It's that motherfuc_king Department of Homeland Security that I had problems with. I was detained three times in the course of my journey. Almost stroked out when some teenage girl slipped on her rubber gloves to frisk me as if I were a biological specimen. These people should be ashamed of themselves. I had a running conversation with every passerby as to why they allow this kind of bullshit to continue. Just shoulder shrugs for answers. Idiots!

Upon my return I had about 100 pounds of foodstuffs I wasreturning with. I knew it would be an issue so I got there way early. Sat and watched while these idiots swabbed and scanned and snuffed 48 indidual jars of anchovies. YOU CAN SEE THE ANCHOVIES THROUGH THE GLASS! Had my ankle weights in there that I guess look like a hamas dyno pak. Hilarious and pathetic all at once. Good riddance <deleted>.

[lannarebirth]

Oh, and apparently you can't travel with a tube of toothpaste over 100grams. I encountered this problem at Chiang Mais Intl. Terminal. I squeezed out 1/2 of my 200g tube into the basket of the girl who stopped me and asked for it. She said that wasn't good enough, which I suppose I knew, but it felt kind of good anyway,

[h90]

It is not relevant that most people are never searched. The issue is about our constitutional rights as Americans and how our government has overstepped acceptable boundaries. The article I referred to talks about laptop searches only. I don't know if the writer of that would see camera memory cards as a symptom of the same issue, or not. After all, those cards do not contain financial data, emails, passwords, trade secrets, etc. However, I would assert they are the same issue. What is in your camera could be seen as a visual parallel to your email, which of course should be private. For example, say you have a Thai wife and family and you visit them in Isaan. You take pictures of your Thai relatives at the swimming pool. US customs sees this and some of those relatives appear under age 18: you are a suspect.

Also to emphasize: nobody is questioning the right of authorities at any border to conduct physical searches WITHOUT CAUSE, or even more invasive searches such as laptop scans WHEN THERE IS SPECIFIC CAUSE, in other words, when a specific person is part of an existing investigation based on police evidence.

Well, come on, you are upset because they look into your laptop? Considering that they official torture people, murdering at home (dead penalty) and in their holy war for oil, scanning laptops is a minor problem.

[Pierrot]

Sorry, this topic is mostly of limited interest to traveling Americans. As a non-American, you can choose to never travel to the USA.

Bitter? Not really. We know we are hated, nothing new, we are used to it.

Relation to Thailand: already mentioned multiple times! BTW, a huge percentage of Thaivisa logins are from the good ole USA.

Nobody hates you. Bitter was just a reference to the feeling you may have when custom officers treat you like a criminal when your only offence is willing to visit their country, feeling you may share now.

But as you say, one may always elect to stay home. "Free world", what a funny expression, anybody knows what it means ?

[OriginalPoster]

Btw, I do like most Americans very much: I find them frank, forthright, fair-minded and generally goodhearted.

For some reason that sort of tripe is often appended to a bigoted bashing of yanks.

[pgs]

I'll point out it's not just the US this happens in - my cameras have been searched photo-by-photo at Sydney airport several times.

Not hearsay, personal experience.

Ask for their ID - as gov't 'officials' they should be required by law to provide it. If nothing else it gives them something to worry about.

For a lot of this, I feel we do have a certain paranoid global 'leader' to thank.

[Jingthing]

I'll point out it's not just the US this happens in - my cameras have been searched photo-by-photo at Sydney airport several times.

Not hearsay, personal experience.

Ask for their ID - as gov't 'officials' they should be required by law to provide it. If nothing else it gives them something to worry about.

For a lot of this, I feel we do have a certain paranoid global 'leader' to thank.

Err. You are welcome ...

Actually, sorry. We as a people were never directly asked if we wanted our government to turn fascist, it just did. Maybe its not too late to fix it. At least the Herald Tribune seems to think so.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[thaikahuna]

The topic is about AMERICANS returning to the US from abroad. Our government spying on its own citizens. It is wrong. It is downright un-American. As the article correctly states, it is in effect the same thing as the government knocking your door down without cause, and rifling through your private files and papers, except these are soft copy private files and papers. It is outrageous.

You know the country song "I'm proud to be an American because at least I know I'm free?" No, you are not.

Libertarians and constitutional purists get their panties in a bunch about their so called right to carry firearms in urban America. That doesn't even compare to the government spying on your private files without cause and due process.

It is also perfectly legal as the government has the right to search for illegal and contraband items. A search of the laptop is to find such items as kiddie porn etc. I had mine searched when I went to the US in 2006.

Edited July 13, 2008 by thaikahuna

[Jingthing]

It is also perfectly legal as the government has the right to search for illegal and contraband items. A search of the laptop is to find such items as kiddie porn etc. I had mine searched when I went to the US in 2006.

Yes, it is currently legal. That is a given. I don't think anyone said it wasn't and I don't even understand why you mentioned that. The issue is: is it reasonable and constitutional? I am with the esteemed Herald Tribune, champion of American expats for decades, on this one. People of good faith and lovers of liberty and our beloved constitution (which is as close as we get to the reverence of Royalty) need to rein in our over-enthusiastic, hysterical, government.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[h90]

I'll point out it's not just the US this happens in - my cameras have been searched photo-by-photo at Sydney airport several times.

Not hearsay, personal experience.

Ask for their ID - as gov't 'officials' they should be required by law to provide it. If nothing else it gives them something to worry about.

For a lot of this, I feel we do have a certain paranoid global 'leader' to thank.

Err. You are welcome ...

Actually, sorry. We as a people were never directly asked if we wanted our government to turn fascist, it just did. Maybe its not too late to fix it. At least the Herald Tribune seems to think so.

Well, don't feel guilty for the wrongdoings of your government......It is not you who did something wrong......

(And I know from what I speak, Adolf Hitler was one of us).

I sent per FedEx some electronic chips to Canada. These chips are perfect legal in Canada and in Thailand.

They made it till Mirabel (spelling??) in Canada, from there it what sent to USA where Homeland security (not customs ) seized it.

It is nothing dangerous it is for children for video games and should have been a birthday present for a kid from his father.

Homeland Security sent me a lovely letter (didn't read it), but have it here if someone doubts it......

As this is most probably against international law I can claim it back (but would win an entry in their database).

Again that are not narcotics that is a chip for videogames which MAY brake Millienium Digital Act, but which is complete legal in Thailand and Canada (as well in Australia and UK).

[britmaveric]

you will quickly realize the huge information gap between american conservatives and the rest of the world. Glad it's over soon.

So when Pres McCain takes office, do you yanks think anything will change?

Edited July 13, 2008 by britmaveric

[h90]

you will quickly realize the huge information gap between american conservatives and the rest of the world. Glad it's over soon.

So when Pres McCain takes office, do you yanks think anything will change?

maybe he is not as stupid as Bush....maybe change to better.

Or if he does the same, the USD will fall and fall till at least they can't buy much outside.

Result is that the poor will suffer

Result 2: worldwide economic crises...

[britmaveric]

Yanks will be ok, least they forget Custom agents/Passport control officers are perhaps the most powerful govt force a nation has - broad powers that go beyond the norm anywhere. Airline Travel isnt a right, but a privilege. You lose rights when you use airlines as your mode of travel, this is blatantly obvious. If you do not like it, then don't use the airlines.

[Jingthing]

If you do not like it, then don't use the airlines

OK, thanks for that. Next time I will take the bus to/from Thailand. Brilliant suggestion.

[lannarebirth]

If you do not like it, then don't use the airlines

OK, thanks for that. Next time I will take the bus to/from Thailand. Brilliant suggestion.

Jingthing,

I'm not sure if you made any domestic flights on your recent visit, but if you did you came up against the Homeland Security pricks. They are by far more invasive of your privacy than customs. Customs usually does a pretty good job IMO. Most people know the rules and follow them Homeland security on the other hand are a bunch of arbitrary and malicious fuc_ks. Two years ago most of'em were working in the parking garage and now they seem to have carte blanche to mess with the public at will. It's a sick fuc_king society that allows that IMO.

[Jingthing]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[HelterSkelter]

From One Immigration control to another (Between Nations) One has NO rights!

US or any other Rights end when One Leaves a National Boundry.

Searches Good! Catch the Pedos! And the sex offenders.The World is a Much

Finer place without them!

The Software they are using for searching Your Media is "Sniffing" specifically for the "Fingerprint" unique to Video and Photo files! Not passwords and Word processing documents.

Nothing to hide?No worries!

[Jingthing]

Chairman Mao by way of Chuckie Manson speaks. How apt.

Edited July 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[h90]

With a name like Homeland Security (only a fascist could love it) it's got to be bad.

There is one law, patriot act I think.....It sounds almost like a translation of Hitlers "Ermächtingungsgesetz"

There were things from Rumsfeld (spelling???) which, if translated sounded like he took it direct from Göbbels.

Everything sounds very scary translated to German.....

[MengWan]

Customs went through every single one of my photo prints the last time I went through. Resistance is futile. Most of my fellow Americans never leave the US, not to mention the county they were born in, so giving travelers and expats heat at the border does not have much political consequence.

Anyone who travels is a potential terrorist

Yep !

And all their relatives are potential accomplices ...

[BPayette]

Don't be talking about or arguing about your fourth amendment right when Customs and Border Protection starts to look in your bag because you won't win.  It's by statute/law that they can search your stuff w/o probable cause.

I never said they didn't have a right to search. What I said was the 4th gives protection against unreasonable search and seizure.

Here is an example. Let's say I do sensitive work and my laptop has an encrypted hard drive to protect the contents. Or even if my laptop requires a password for access. I am not obligated to anyone to provide that password without cause, such as a search warrant. They can turn it on, examine the hardware, scan it, x-ray it, whatever. But they have no rights to the content without showing cause. Period. End of story. If they want to detain me, then so be it but be prepared for the consequences of overzealousness.

Don't get me wrong. I want these people doing their job well just as much as the next guy. But they also are not above the law and must be accountable for their actions.

You're correct, you can refuse and require a warrant, and if you get a stubborn customs person, that's exactlyl what they'll do. Detain you for however long it takes to get one...possibly days, with no obligation to house or feed you.

Best thing to do is either leave it all at home, or put it all on a thumb drive and keep it in your pocket....but then if they do a body search, ....

[Mario2008]

In the digital age governments have more and more possibilities to check what your doing, so they also will make use of that possibility. And companies are willing to help them. Worried about customs checking your notebook. Make a print on a HP-printer and it will not only print your document, but also the type and serial number of your printer. Big Brother is watching you. For years already.

You are not a citizen. You are a potential criminal at best and terrorist at worst.